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Old school D&D
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You are currently reading a thread in /tg/ - Traditional Games

Thread replies: 216
Thread images: 10
Is AD&D 2e any good? Thought it might be fun to try since my group is getting a little bored of 5e.
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>>45023903
2nd ed is by far the best edition.
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>>45023903
2eAD&D is my absolute favorite. What do you want to know?
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>>45023903
Walt Whitman? I smoked weed with Walter Whitman. Walter Whitman and Sload Kettering.
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>>45023925
>>45023927
mainly how it differs from modern interpretations (Like 5th edition.)
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>>45023903
Thac0 is a pain in the ass. One of the first house rules we came up with was ascending armor class.
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>>45023960
Thac0 wasn't bad. It was just unnecessarily cumbersome.

Plus 2nd ed did psionics the right way. Only edition that did, imo.
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>>45023941
In some ways, 5e tries to capture the feeling of AD&D (unsuccessfully in my opinion).
Stat bloat is non-existent. Ability scores matter a lot less. Casters have sensible restrictions and powers. Player characters, despite being extremely capable at higher levels, are still human. Saving throws matter a lot more, and playing smart and cleverly (lessening the amount of saving throws you might need to make) is more essential at higher levels.

>>45023960
>>45023977
>this meme
Thac0 is your target number.
Roll the dice. Add your opponent's armor class. Does it meet or exceed the Thac0? then you hit. Does it not? You miss.
Just think of Thac0 as the number you need to beat, rather than the opponent's armor class.
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>>45023903
5e is to 2nd ed, as a bowl of shit, is to a steak dinner.
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>>45023990
why? what makes it so much better?
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>>45023977
Ad&d psionics! Fuck yea.
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>>45024002
Allingment restrictions.
Racial restrictions.
Psionics done right.
No dragonborn bullshit. No faggot races.
Good solid supplements.
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>>45024002
2e is more challenging as a system.
5e gives you TWO saving throws to avoid triggering a trap, even when you fail to discover the trap.
5e gives you 3 "death saving throws" after you go down to negative hit points.
All healing immediately is treated as if you had 0 hit points, so being healed for 1 hit point, even if you're at -9, results in you having 1 HP.
Without challenge, there is no fun.
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>>45024037
I like 2e also but you are really sounding old writing this way. And not selling it.
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>>45023903

I always preferred Basic to AD&D. For AD&D, though, 1e has the great exposition from Gygax in the DMG, which has loads of good advice on things, while 2e is better for referencing stuff since it's a lot easier to find in the clearer layout. 2e also takes all the 1e Advanced rules and explicitly says "these are all optional" which is a good thing, IMO. Everyone ran 1e modularly like that anyway, and generally with THAC0 instead of attack tables, so it's good to make those things all official.

2e does fuck with the dungeon crawling mechanics, though, which sucks. Dungeon crawling was not a big focus anymore by that time, and people who didn't understand why it worked the way it did tried to "fix" things like the slow movement rates in dungeons, which throws the balance all out of whack.
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>>45024054
So?

I'm not trying to sell it. I'm saying why I find it great.
(Also eat a cock if you don't like racial and allingment restrictions)
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>>45024054
Can you "sell" it to me?
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>>45024049
>the flind hits...
>roll a save vs rsw....
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>>45023988
>Ability scores matter a lot less.

Actually in 5E it's very much the reverse - your ability scores are HUGELY important, since they're functionally the only things that add numerical bonuses to whatever check you make.

>Roll the dice. Add your opponent's armor class. Does it meet or exceed the Thac0? then you hit.

Even if this is "easy" in some arcane universe after practice and getting used to it, that doesn't change that ascending armor class remains easiER, and considerably more intuitive since it's more in-line with other system mechanics.

There is no actual benefit to THAC0 over ascending AC, but there is a benefit to ascending AC over THAC0.
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>>45024077
Yeah, at that point, you are leveraging a badwrongfun argument, not speaking of the game's virtues.
I love 2e, and all you are doing is waxing about how you don't like OTHER games.
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>>45024107
>Actually in 5E it's very much the reverse - your ability scores are HUGELY important, since they're functionally the only things that add numerical bonuses to whatever check you make
Sorry if that was confusing. That line was talking about 2e. Not 5e.
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>>45024108
The psionics handbook, and the complete fighters handbook, make 2nd ed worth playing.

Classy stuff.
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>>45024037
>Allingment restrictions.
>Racial restrictions
>Good

Pick one

>Psionics done right.
>a 1st level PC can get disintegrate

wew lad

>No faggot races.
Kender, Tinker Gnomes

>Good solid supplements.
Player's Option: Skills & Powers, Jakandor.
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>>45023903
2nd edition doesn't do well in bits and bobs. Its a very long-term game that rewards extended play. If you're not going to be in it for at least a medium-haul then I recommend against it.

On the other hand it is pretty great.
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>roll stats
>first roll get an 18
>fuck yea.jpg
Now roll percentage... Wooohoo
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>>45024107
>Even if this is "easy" in some arcane universe after practice and getting used to it, that doesn't change that ascending armor class remains easiER
Look. It's the exact same. Neither one is more difficult.
In 3.5 and beyond, you think of AC as the number to beat. In 2e, you think of your Thac0 as the number to beat. That's the only difference.
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>>45024122
Ah, I see. Because, see, a lot of what you're typing out applies equally well to 5E as to 2E.

Everyone is thrown off by how fuck powerful they were in 3E, everyone always seems to forget that casters in AD&D weren't nobody's fool either. They had weirder rules than in 3E onwards, but put a Fighter with 500,000 XP and a Mage with 500,000 XP in a 30 ft x 30 ft blank room and tell 'em to fight it out, and I know who I'm betting on every time. And it's not the Fighter.
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>>45024130
OK..everyone admits that kender were an error.
I..I...I can't defend their existence..

>1st lv disengrate
With great stats, and only thing you can do that day.

>restrictions
Are a good thing.
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>>45024160
It seems like in 2e, the fighter (or other warrior) is not only recommended, it's essential for the survival of your casters.
Most olden days groups would have two fighters for every mage they had in the group, because an enemy getting any attack at all on a magic user was devastating.

The fighter, paladin, and ranger were really the only classes you wanted to have in a straight up fight with anything. The cleric could in a pinch, but the cleric had the same HD as any enemy, which made it a coin flip.
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>>45024138
Again, ascending AC has the benefit of lining up better with other extant mechanics.

To pass a save, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you.
To pass a skill check, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you.
To pass an attack roll, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you."

See? Everything lines up neater, rather than having THAC0 be the exception: "To pass an attack roll, you need to hit a number provided by you, modified by the target."

It's not "exactly the same" because it notably goes against the grain. The end result may be the same but that doesn't change that the unified mechanic is just fundamentally by virtue of being a unified mechanic.
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>>45024209
You also had roll-under checks applied to ability scores and percentage rolls actually.
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AD&D seems like a neat system if you've been playing it since the 90s, but it looks hard to pick up and play. Also, I've heard that almost no one plays with rules as written and every group houserules the more obtuse parts of it.

>>45024177
The restrictions are completely arbitrary though. It's just shit Gygax put in the game mostly because he hated demi-humans.
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>>45024209
*fundamentally better. Sorry, it's late where I am.

>>45024193
>it's essential for the survival of your casters.

To a point. Past that point AD&D spellcasters can, as in 3E, start providing their own muscle as the situation warrants via summon or charm/dominate effects, provided they even feel the need and don't shut down attacks against them any number of other ways. To say nothing of their out-of-combat utility being vastly greater than that of any other class, again due to spellcasting: the Tier system was in full effect and casters were still fundamentally higher-Tier than noncasters.

3E widened the gap, but I do not look back on AD&D as the halcyon days of the noncaster, because it wasn't.
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>>45024226
the demi-humans get powers and abilities (like infra-vision and multi-classing to name a few) that humans do not get. It's also worth noting that leveling beyond 12 has diminishing returns on raw power.
The restrictions are a balancing mechanic. The one advantage to playing a human is the lack of level limits. That's it.
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>>45024226
Dwarves not being able to be wizards is wholly derived from the fact that Gimli was not a wizard, for example. That's it. It's not even based on anything broader in larger LotR lore; Nowhere in any of Tolkien's works are dwarves said to be particularly distrustful of magic, and the folklore that dwarves stem from have them as mighty artificers and spellcasters in their own right just like elves (mostly because the folklore they come from poorly distinguishes the two).

Plus in AD&D you get really weird stuff like elves, the nature-loving ponces of the forest, not being allowed to be Druids.
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>>45024160

In AD&D, I'd bet on the Fighter. Multiple attacks, Great saves vs SoD spells that didn't increase in difficulty, and the MU gets no concentration checks to avoid losing his spell if he got hit while casting. The Fighter will be up in the mage's face doing his best impression of a blender in no time.
Even worse, make him a specialized dart fighter and he won't even have to move to wreck the Magic User's day. 5 darts per round, 1d3+3 damage per hit, and he's almost guaranteed to win initiative.

This is leaving out the Fighter's infantry and bodyguards, who will exist in large numbers by level 10, and could tackle the mage's summons and things.

>>45024281

You're looking to the wrong source material for elves and dwarves.
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>>45024304
Don't forget that the fighter also has the best saving throws at high level in 2e.
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>>45024226
>every group houserules the more obtuse parts of it.
Honestly I and every other GM I've known have done this with every tabletop RPG we've ever played. It's not a sign of a badly made game, it's a sign that groups, and the people in them, are not clones of each other. Everybody plays a bit different. That being said, people do seem to play differently than they used to, and >>45024136 is right.

Of course, if you want to go really old school, you could always find a scan of the original red and blue books...
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>>45024264
Isn't the human ability to dual-class superior to multiclassing in every way because you don't have to split experience points?

Also when you start dual-classing, you forget everything about your old class until you catch up in levels to your new class. But then suddenly you get all your abilities from your old class and with no experience penalty. How the fuck does that even happen?
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>>45024310
True, but most RPGs published in the 80s and 90s have way more arbitrary bullshit to houserule because 80s and 90s RPG design was when the majority of gamers were math nerds that loved formulas and random tables.
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>>45024226
>arbitrary

Well, you can apply that to every rule or guideline.
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>>45024304
Admittedly I have not read all of the books that Gygax listed as recommended reading. I do not, however, understand why elves, who are explicitly described within the corpus of existing AD&D material written by or with input by Gygax himself as nature-loving sylvan creatures who love trees and forests and the natural world, are not allowed to take levels in the Druid class, but rather only humans and half-elves are.

For that matter I don't understand why elves, who are further described as lovers of song and lore and art and culture, are not allowed to be Bards. Perhaps this stems from the fact that Bard is the original prestige class that required, among other things, a level in Druid, which elves cannot take.

AD&D class restrictions were completely, utterly, and senselessly arbitrary.
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>>45024315
>Isn't the human ability to dual-class superior to multiclassing in every way because you don't have to split experience points?
Dual-classing is only possible in the first place if you roll a 17 or 18 in all the prime requisites of the class you want to dual-class into.
>Also when you start dual-classing, you forget everything about your old class until you catch up in levels to your new class. But then suddenly you get all your abilities from your old class and with no experience penalty.
You don't "forget". What you do is take a gamble. You're making yourself less powerful for your level in order to build yourself as the new class from the ground up. You could, for example, use the saving throws from your first class in order to survive a fireball, but you would have spoiled the building up of your second class and would need to earn the experience points of your most recent levels again.
Think of it like... taking on a whole new lifestyle and way of looking at the world. That's tough to do in real life, much more in a world of magic.
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>>45023903
I have been playing dnd since 1985. I was 8 years old when my friend got me into it. Now, I will say that dnd 2ed sucks though. The fighter is worthless beyond level 3. The level caps don't mean much as no one ever gets to them. The demihumans are OP as fuck (half elf ftr/clr/wiz is a good example). Druids didn't make any sense (turn into a sparrow and then a blue whale, fall on opponent and kill them). It's just a bad bad system. Horrible. Now, 5th edition took all the ease of play that 2nd had and simplified it all. I would say that 5th is far superior to 2nd edition for game play and equality of classes. Oh yeah, btw, they had the best monster manuals in that edition. Easy to convert those beasties into 5th edition, have fun and best of luck.
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>>45024264
>The restrictions are a balancing mechanic.

How can they be a balancing mechanic when most groups never hit them?

>>45024339
That still doesn't that particular arbitrary decision less stupid.

>>45024366
>Oh yeah, btw, they had the best monster manuals in that edition.
This is true. For some reason the Monstrous Compendiums don't feel as horrifically bloated as 3.5's or Pathfinder's.
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>>45024341
>nature-loving sylvan creatures who love trees and forests and the natural world, are not allowed to take levels in the Druid class, but rather only humans and half-elves are.
Your flawed analysis is not with elves. It's with druids.
Druids protect the forest, yes, but they are not denizens of the forest per-se. Druids are very much preservers of the forest, and take care of the land as self-appointed stewards of it. That's not what an elf is. An elf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the forest. They didn't choose to defend the forest out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have.
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>>45023903
I have D&D single volume but I don't know why they disabled pdf uploading here, or maybe it's just appchan

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-JeQd4atb7vZ0dCTmoyRkR0TDA/view?usp=sharing
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>>45024384
>How can they be a balancing mechanic when most groups never hit them?

They're not about balancing players against each other, they're about balancing the world. Elves don't hit higher levels for metaphysical reasons, which means the world is not utterly dominated by hundreds of 1,000 year old level 36 elves. Short-lived humans burn brightest, just not for long.
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>>45024366
>turn into a sparrow and then a blue whale, fall on opponent and kill them
impossible. A blue whale's HD is well beyond what a 20th level druid could transform into by the rules of their own shapeshifting powers.

Your analysis is total crap in many other ways. I don't know what edition YOU'VE been playing, but it's not 2e.
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>>45024337
This is true. I really loved the 1e and 2e rulebooks for their clinical neatness, ut I hated them for how much of a pain in the ass it was to find tables. Some of them seemed to be in logical places, others didn't, and some that you'd think would appear together were in totally different sections of the book. 2e seemed to be really bad for this and at one point I put labeled post-its as bookmarks just so I could find shit without holding up gameplay for ten minutes while I found some crucial table that wasn't included on the DM screen.

But yeah I still can't figure out why they put that fake calligraphy-guide-lines bullshit behind all the text in the 3e and later books. I guess they intended it to look cool and arcane and shit, but the typeface doesn't look handwritten at all so it looks dumb, plus it makes it hard as fuck to read even if you don't have old eyes like mine.
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>>45023988
thaco: to hit armor class "0"
your thaco- targets AC=roll to meet or beat it to hit.

AC in that game can never go below -10. Thaco, never below 1 (only achieved with a lvl 20 ftr/pal/rgr). Game was broken IMO, I played alot. Hint, if you play a human go duel class. Get a str 15+ and a primary stat of your main class 17+. Then play human ftr till lvl 5 or so, get tons of weapon slots and a spec (get the combat guide book or the kits from he various handbooks too). Now at lvl 5 you change classes. become a lvl 1 wizard with a lvl 1 wizard thaco and saves till lvl 5 again. Bonus, you have a lvl 5ftr's HP! boom, you're going to be the baddest mother fucking wizard or rogue in the game. Best of luck.
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>>45024414
>(only achieved with a lvl 20 ftr/pal/rgr)
Not only is that literally impossible by the rules as written, it still wouldn't bring your Thac0 below 1. What the fuck are you talking about?
>Game was broken IMO, I played alot. Hint, if you play a human go duel class. Get a str 15+ and a primary stat of your main class 17+
Good luck rolling that on 6 rolls of 3d6.
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>>45024391
Here's the 26 books of AD&D, dunno why there's a naked woman on the cover

http://www.cj-resources.com/Storage%201/AD&D%20-2E%20-Complete%20Set%20of%2026%20Books.PDF
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>>45024414

So, roll exceptionally well on your stats, then survive the 5 most PC-deadly levels twice, and you can eventually be OP.
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>>45024391
thanks anon
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>>45024386
>They do it because it's all they have.
Except Elves also have cities and empires. See Alfheim (Mystara) and Myth Drannor & Cormanthyr (Forgotten Realms).

Just accept that it's a handwave.

>>45024404
>Elves don't hit higher levels for metaphysical reasons, which means the world is not utterly dominated by hundreds of 1,000 year old level 36 elves.

So the only reason the level limits exist are to enforce Gygax's unimaginative humanocentric medieval fantasy Europe? Not really convincing me that level limits are good, bucko.
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>>45024366
Wut?
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So I heard this game is harder for low level parties. Why is that?
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>>45024453
>5986 pages
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>>45024463
Then have ubermenche elves in your game. The rulebook says you can do this if you want to, but it also lists the reasons why it's a retarded idea.
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>>45024475
I believe its all of the supplements in one pdf. If your confused as to why its so large.
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>>45024473
Because you don't get max hit dice at 1st level.
It's possible for your fighter to roll a 1 on their initial hit point total.
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>>45024414
Encounters are still lv based.
A lv 5 fighter, lv 1 mage..will face lv6 encounters.

G'luck getting your sleep spell to work.
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>>45024463
>So the only reason the level limits exist are to enforce Gygax's unimaginative humanocentric medieval fantasy Europe? Not really convincing me that level limits are good, bucko.

You just went full virtualoptim, dude. You never go go full virtualoptim.
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>>45024304
The Fighter cannot fly and has no way to see through invisibility. Also if we're going by the Initiative rules in at least my copy of the AD&D PHB (2nd Edition, 1995), then Initiative is by default determined by rolling a flat d10; low roll wins. So the Fighter actually only has a flat 50/50 shot of going first, he's not "guaranteed" to win anything.

Invisibility only has a casting time of 2, so it's not like it bumps the Mage up the Initiative all that much; and besides which, the casting time rules are actually OPTIONAL, not part of the base game. If the Wizard wins initiative (again, 50/50 shot by default), then by default the wizard's gonna turn invisible and the Fighter's gonna be left holding his darts and not knowing what to do.

And you don't target Save VS Death, you target Save VS Spell. Charm Person, Scare, Suggestion, Evard's Black Tentacles, Domination, Hold Monster (against whcih the Fighter will have a -3 penalty on his save thanks to being the only target), and so on.

But none of this happens until the Invisible wizard casts Stoneskin, which simply outright negates 1d4 attacks plus 1 attack per two levels (so our 500,000 XP Mage, who would be 10th level, outright negates 1d4+5 attacks against his person). Stoneskin also isn't an attack and so doesn't negate the Invisibility.

Hell, the Mage should actually probably start with Stoneskin and then turn Invisible.

Sorry, but no. AD&D is still Caster Edition.
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>>45024488
I'm more confused as to why someone would think it's a good idea. And I'm almost certain that it isn't all the supplements, Mystara and Forgotten Realms alone could break the 26-splat count.

>>45024502
It's true though. Read one of the old Dragon articles (around issues #60-70) where he increases level limits and he passive-aggressively complains about how demi-humans are supposed to be sidekicks and every one should really be playing humans.
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>>45024552
Where will the wizard learn any of those spells? They do not get to automatically learn any spell they want. They need to find them in scrolls or enemy wizard spellbooks, and then roll their percentage chance to actually learn them.

Sorry, you're mistaken.
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>>45024386
That does not make the slightest ounce of sense and smacks of justification after the fact rather than actual reasoning beforehand.

By this logic, Spartans should not be able to take levels in Fighter.
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>>45024574
Humans have a spark of greatness in them. Otherwise they would not only be shorter-lived than any other race, but also have no special powers to make up for it.
You might as well remove humans from the game at that point.
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>>45024588
And mages jealously guard their spells.

They don't sell them on the street corner.
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>>45024552

Well, I'm going with the optional weapon speed rules.
Invisibility is only a -4 to attack, which is nothing to a 10th level fighter, even if he doesn't just have 13 INT and spot the MU outright with a save:
>All highly
Intelligent (Intelligence 13 or more) creatures with 10 or more Hit Dice or levels of
>experience have a chance to detect invisible objects (they roll saving throws vs. spell;
>success means they noticed the invisible object).
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>>45024574
>It's true though.

Virtualoptim is right once in a blue moon, too. Going full virt is about stating your opinions in a way that makes you sound like a complete asshole. Like calling people "bucko."
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>>45024605
>Humans have a spark of greatness in them.
The only thing they have is the author's bias in favor of them. If Elves got all the goodies Humans do and Humans were relegated to supporting roles you'd be shitting yourself over how the game is some nerd's terrible self-insert fantasy.

>You might as well remove humans from the game at that point.
So unless Humans are munchkinbait they should just be excised from the game entirely?
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>>45024692
>If Elves got all the goodies Humans do and Humans were relegated to supporting roles you'd be shitting yourself over how the game is some nerd's terrible self-insert fantasy.

Are we even talking about the same game here? Elves are already OP in AD&D as it stands, even with level limits.
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>>45024686
Well, I'm sorry to trigger you with such uncouth speech but you should be aware that in the environs of 4chan there is a constant air of confrontation and bluntness in almost all exchanges.
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>>45024718

You still sound like a condescending douchebag. It'd be a lot easier to take your opinions seriously if you weren't so snotty about them.
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>>45024601
Wut?
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>>45024093
I don't play it anymore so I'll let others answer it. I just have good memories of the edition, I like the various classes. Things were designed in a way that made everything feel very mysterious, but it was also very crunchy. Powers were weird and obviously founded on various aspects of fiction and mythology in a way that 5e isn't.

but I really like 5e and think its my favorite edition so far, but thats why I'm mostly trying to lurk this thread instead of answering your OP, sorry
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>>45024743
>You still sound like a condescending douchebag.

That was the intent. You see, I was actually mocking you for getting hung up on a single word and ignoring facts because you don't like how they're presented.

>>45024715
In my defense, I am quite sleepy and my original example was Dwarves instead of Elves.
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>>45024588
This is a 10th level Mage with 500,000 XP behind him - do you know the sheer length of time it takes to get that much XP in AD&D? Most of the spells I mentioned are 2nd level (i.e., available starting level 3), including Invisibility, Stoneskin,

At the very least a specialist wizard gets a spell of his or her specialized school automatically at each new spell level (again, according to my aforementioned copy of the AD&D PHB), guaranteeing such a specialist a minimum of 5 spells. It'd take a bastard of a DM to restrict a 500K XP Mage to just those ive spells, however. Expecting such a Mage to automatically have at least, say, one spell per spell level (so 10 total if specialized), is by no means unreasonable, and was in fact the standard recommended in the AD&D DMG (by default it is left to the DM to decide, but again, it'd have to be a bastard DM who doesn't let a newly-created 10th level Mage have any spells at all).
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>>45024834
>guaranteeing such a specialist a minimum of 5 spells
Yes, but ONLY in his or her specialization. Most of the spells listed by the guy saying 2e is also "caster edition" weren't in the same school at all.
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>>45024834
>not starting at 1st lv

Holy hell....pathetic.
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>>45024834
Stoneskin is level 4 in my book.
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>>45024759
>An elf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the forest. They didn't choose to defend the forest out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have.
>Therefore elves cannot be Druids

This makes about as much sense as,

>A Spartan's entire culture and racial identity is tied to warfare. They didn't choose to defend Sparta out of reverence for their polis. They do it because it's all they have.
>Therefore Spartans cannot be Fighters.

It works (or doesn't) equally well with Dwarfs, actually.

>An dwarf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the mine. They didn't choose to defend the mine out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have.
>Therefore dwarves cannot be miners

I think we have a new Katanas meme...
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>>45023925
>>45023927
These men have good taste.
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>>45024834
>>45024552
Ranged attacks negates fly, and a bag of flour negates invisibility. Try again.
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>>45024049
>negative hit points
No such thing in my games!!

Still play 2E. You can strip it down and use it like basic BECMI, or add on all the options and go full retard. This includes weapon speeds, weapon damage versus armour type, movement rates all of it.

And this whole THAC0 this is played out bullshit. I grew up with it. Finally playing a system that used a d20 to roll high with no target number (because THAC0 at least gave you something to aim for) was totally alien, totally unintuative, totally broken. It felt badly designed, and badly thought out. Really obscure.

The system itself is really modular, just remember that you roll high on hitting things and saving throws, roll low on a few other things like thief skills and you're good to go.

Monster levels are easy to run too. 1HD (D8) per level for a monster unless specified otherwise. Eyeball the level of the party, throw a load of monsters at them that have enough HPs to be a challenge or pain in the ass depending how you feel.

Rulings not rules. Guides not dogma, that is what pre-3.pf.bs is all about. Different mindset.

As for 5E? Dunno, never played it, but when the basic was released it seemed that every class got special magical skills at each level which was weird. Didn't grok that.
>>
>>45024927
>No such thing in my games!!
Same. Zero means motherfucking ZERO.
>>
>>45024834
Stoneskin = Alteration.
Dominate, Charm Person, Hold Monster = Enchantment.
Invisibility = Illusion.
Evard's Tentacles = Conjuration.

Are you planning to take specialization in all schools at once?
>>
>>45024357
Adventuring ain't a lifestyle, anon.
>>
>>45024855
Ugh...try reading on occasion: >>45024160

>Everyone is thrown off by how fuck powerful they were in 3E, everyone always seems to forget that casters in AD&D weren't nobody's fool either. They had weirder rules than in 3E onwards, but put a Fighter with 500,000 XP and a Mage with 500,000 XP in a 30 ft x 30 ft blank room and tell 'em to fight it out, and I know who I'm betting on every time. And it's not the Fighter.

>>45024856
Geh, it is in mine as well. Sorry. 4 AM where I am. Sleepy, making mistakes.

Point is that it's not unreasonable (and actually recommended per AD&D DMG) at all for a 10th level Mage to begin knowing 10 spells, if specialized, with 5 being required to be of the specialized school. This is, in fact, actually the bare minimum - it assumes that this mage has ONLY ever acquired automatic spells from leveling up, and has never once acquired a spell through adventuring.

Said Mage's spellbook might then look like the following, if an Illusionist (and therefore no Necromancy spells):
- 1st: Charm Person, Phantasmal Force
- 2nd: Invisibility, Summon Swarm
- 3rd: Spectral Force, Suggestion
- 4th: Hallucinatory Terrain, Stoneskin
- 5th: Advanced Illusion, Domination

The Fighter has no real responses to the various Enchantment spells, can't get past the Stoneskin, has a poor chance of seeing through the Invisibility (what Fighter has an INT 13 in AD&D?), is screwed over by the various other Illusions; and has nothing to deal with the Summon Swarm to any great extent, either.

And again, these are the bare minimum spells that a 10th level Wizard could know; and at 10th level the wizard can in fact have at least one instance of each of these memorized (4/4/3/2/2 for spells per day at 10th level).

The Fighter does enjoy myriad advantages that Fighters in 3E wouldn't; the gap is not as big. But it most certainly is still there.
>>
>>45024281
Sorta makes sense, the way I read it, the early iterations of the druid class were closer to the source material: a Druid being simply equivalent to a priest in some human societies, as opposed to it being a special sort of nature wizard thing.

I mean, Druids aren't all about nature, historically they were more about legislature, astronomy and human sacrifice.
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>>45024995
your chosen class, however, is.
>>
This is the one where archers get two shots a turn for some reason, right?
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>>45025008
Per round, yes. And only if they stay in one place and don't get into melee.
For example, you can either shoot two arrows, or you can shoot one arrow and make a withdraw action.
>>
>>45024876
>and a bag of flour negates invisibility

In AD&D a character can move and cast a spell, or cast a spell and then move, just as in later editions. In this case a spellcaster would turn Invisible and the move...anywhere. Unless the Fighter is wielding several hundred pounds worth of flour, he's not going to know where to throw the flour to reveal the Invisible Mage unless said Fighter is exceptionally attentive.

>>45024955
Again, as was discussed, it is reasonable to assume that a 10th level mage will know at least 5 spells, 1 for each spell level; plus 5 spells of his specialized school, 1 for each spell level, for a total of 10 spells. This is actually the bare minimum - it is suggested that the DM allow a Mage to automatically learn 1 spell per new spell level, which means that this Mage knows only the spells he gains automatically, and has never once in his 500,000 XP worth of adventures otherwise copied a new spell into his spellbook.
>>
>>45024834
that 2nd lvl spell is probably barkskin, not stoneskin
>>
>>45025053
Again, mea culpa. Current spellbook is looking thus: >>45024998
>>
>>45025053
Stoneskin is 4th
>>
It's alright, but if you want real old school charm, you want to play 1st edition, which has more content and delightful Gygaxian prose.

But if you want a more functional game, I'd suggest picking up the B/X set written by Tom Moldvay (not to say AD&D isn't functional, I just feel this alternative is more tightly designed). It has all of the strengths of AD&D without the cumbersome baggage. You could also pick up a game like Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which are all strongly based on B/X with some tweaks.
>>
>>45025047
>durrr..a mage can cast invisibility
>that proves caster supremacy!!
Fucking idiot. Seriously.
>>
>>45025125
Yea. I just roll my eyes at it.
We've never had a game, in the last 15 years, that had any of this " ubercasters" bullshit.

Usually its the wizards needing protected and saved. They can be deadly, but they're really really squishy.
>>
>>45025125
Weeell...what spells a 10th level wizard should then have, in your opinion anon?
>>
>>45023960
>Thac0 is a pain in the ass.
>adding negatives is hard because I flunked 4th grade three times
FTFY
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>>45025125
That wasn't much of an argument. What answer would a fighter have for invisibility when we assume that the mage isn't a total dipshit and will move after casting?

>>45025146
Not that I agree it's a huge problem or anything, but the reason shit like this rarely comes up in anecdotal accounts is because most gamers don't typically go out of their way to stress test systems. A good example would be the nWoD threads, which wound up becoming a state of total chaos when Touhoufag started actually putting decent analysis to the character option mechanics.
>>
>>45025075
Heretic, you dare suggest a system that's not D&D, where you think you are ^^

So without the sarcasm this is going a bit out of thread but them what the most balanced systems you guys know? Since I loved this guys point
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>>45023903
>My rpg group is getting bored.
>It's probably the system, I'll switch things up with another edition!

I have some bad news for you buddy...
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>>45025334
wise words
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>>45025328
>Balanced system

Like, I get that D&D fags are mainly in it for the dungeon combat simulation, but come on. It's a game that runs on imagination where you can attempt anything, it's not Leage of Legends. "Balance" is such a weird thing to prioritize in pen and paper role-playing.

>This entire setting is shit because wizards are more dangerous than thieves.
>I take no pleasure in this immersive adventure because someone else in the group, where we all cooperate is slightly better at killing things quickly than I am.
>0/10, would not play, swords are totally OP compared to hayrakes.
>>
>>45025370
The point being that the someone else gets far better than 'slightly' killing things quickly than you, over time. Being relegated to a supporting character mook ain't very fun, anon.
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>>45025421
But if your primary source of enjoyment is the act of killing fictional monsters that are controlled by your friend sitting across from you at the table, who wants you to win, why don't you find another competitive outlet or just shoot yourself in the mouth?

If you want to be exactly as good at something, make exactly the same character, since you're obviously not putting much stock in the other aspects of the game.

At some point you have to grow up and realize that pen and paper rpgs are probably one of the worst outlets for competition compared to other types of game.

Threads like this convince me that most people who play D&D would be happier just playing Talisman or Descent, or videogames where balancing and competition are important and prioritized.
Do you honestly take some kind of pleasure in being "good" at D&D, measured in how powerful you made your character?
>Wohoo, I'm a winner, I can do 3rd grade math and roll dice better than my friends!
>>
>>45024209
I'm late to the party, but this needs to be corrected.

>To pass a save, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you.
In AD&D, saving is done by rolling over a static target provided by you, modified by the difficulty
>To pass a skill check, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you.
In AD&D, a check is done by rolling under your ability score, modified by the difficulty and proficiency.
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>>45024137
>Now roll percentage... Wooohoo
That's how my buddy ended up with a Dwarf Fighter 18/98str with 19Con. 3d6 legiit rolls. Was a beast.
>>45024366
>The fighter is worthless beyond level 3.
The fuck? That warrior con bonus, that Thaco, that multiple attacks. That Str bonus + multiple attacks = reliable damage out the ass.
>The demihumans are OP as fuck (half elf ftr/clr/wiz is a good example)
That having to split XP between all of your classes. Go ahead and try to cast arcane spells in Plate Armor. You're also forgetting splitting HP rolls by 3 per class level.
At most you'll get 3hp for fighter level assuming you roll a 10, 2 for cleric and 1 for mage. Rounded DOWN. Plus Con bonuses are split 3 ways. Also ALL levels count towards party level. If the DM says ok start at lvl 6 everyone. That 1/2E F/CL/M is only going to be chucking cleric spells at lvl 3 and mage at level 2 VS the level 6 mage in the party totally outgunning him and the fighter smacking everything around.
Obviously never hit that level gap I see.
Muliclass characters are VERY long play. It's an example of learning a LOT of things over a LONG lifespan. Although slowly.
>
>>
>>45023903
AD&D Was my first and favorite RPG
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>>45024037
>Psionics done right
Literally this, 2nd ed psionics ruined the later editions for me because it was so fun
>>
I'm just going to step in here and say that all forms of AD&D are cumbersome messes, and that if you really want to play old school D&D play Moldvay Basic D&D. If you're thirsting for rules there's the Rules Cyclopedia which compiles just about every version of Basic together.
>>
>>45025075
>delightful Gygaxian prose

Sorry, that guy needed an editor to clean the linguistic vomit off the page. One thing I hate about 1E. Fucking "Gygaxian".

Sorry, it's just like, my opinion, man.
>>
>>45026343
I have that one too! Nice to use, just I still want to roll initiative on a d10 rolling low.

2E is in the blood.
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>>45026118
>Also ALL levels count towards party level.
This is total house rules territory. Please don't conflate the way you play with a critique of the actual game itself.
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>>45026400
2e has the most interesting settings, I'll give you that. I actually don't like D&D at all, but Basic and Basic retroclones are the ones I have the least amount of problems with.
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>>45025370
>where we all cooperate is slightly better at killing things quickly than I am.
That's not a problem with the wizards.
The problem with the wizards is in their vast capabilities OUTSIDE of monster killing.

Blaster wizard is still stronger than a fighter, but less endurant, there's no real problems there.

Problem is that he can create vast array of solutions to any problems the party encounters while the fighter is limited to "poke it with a sharp stick". Wizard can travel the party, can supply the party, can house the party. They become passangers on the wizard's wild ride.
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>>45023903
If you got bored of the 5e, you will get bored on the 3.5 and the 2nd. Because they have mostly the same feel. The 3.5 is broken and the 2nd is more gruesome, but the game runs the same.
>>
I had fun with it.
It has low-power feel compared to 3.5/PF/4e high-power fantasy opera.

Only thing bringing it down for me is tablestablestablestables.
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>>45024049
5e doesn't have negative hitpoints. Fuck's sake, if you're going to sperg out about not liking something, get it right.
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>>45027216
Well, it kinda does. It you take enough damage such that your "negative" hit points equal or exceed your normal hit point value (or is it double? I forget), you flat out die with not death saves.
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>>45027380
Yes, but it's not counted and it doesn't stack. So you have to get that 30 HP hit all in one go, or it's just a DS automarked out.

Either way, it's still not what the guy was sperging about, given his explicit mention of a -9 HP rank or whatever.

Gives a modest chance for a PC to not be instigibbed, which to my mind is fine, because it's a damn game.
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>>45025370
>wizards
>only "slightly" better

Wizard player and/or fetishist detected.
>>
Fucking AD&D fags thinking 5e is boring in comparison.

They suffer the exact. same. flaws. AD&D just has thousands of pages of content 5e doesn't have. The bigger question for OP is why he is getting bored.

Better combat? You need a different game or 4e

Lighter rules? You need to go back to before AD&D

Moar anime? Different game

Social systems? Different game

More strange content? Then AD&D can probably get you there
>>
>>45025047
>In AD&D a character can move and cast a spell, or cast a spell and then move, just as in later editions.

From the 2E PHB:
>Once the casting has begun, the character must stand still.
>During the round in which the spell is cast, the caster cannot move to dodge attacks.

You roll your spell initiative at the start of the round and begin casting, and hoping not to be interrupted. At the end of your turn, it goes off. You don't get to move during that period if you're casting, by RAW.

You can move at the end, but that won't save you even if the Fighter doesn't have the 13 Int mentioned upthread, see below.

>>45025268
>What answer would a fighter have for invisibility when we assume that the mage isn't a total dipshit and will move after casting?

Well, for one thing since we're apparently bringing in the mage's summons, the fighter has an army, including an elite bodyguard led by a 5th-7th level fighter. That 30x30 room is going to be pretty crowded.
Also the Fighter will have income and manpower from his castle with which to acquire things like a ring of see invisible.

The initial "drop 'em both into an empty room unannounced" scenario, before the goalpost moving, favored the Fighter since he can just run up and wreck the wizard, invisibility or no:

>When the DM thinks there is minor but sufficient cause for a creature to detect an
>invisible character, a saving throw vs. spell should be made (secretly if the DM is
>checking for a player character).

>If the suspicious creature or character rolls a successful saving throw, he detects some
>small sign of the invisible foe's presence. He knows its general location, but not its exact
>position. He can attack it with a -4 penalty on his chance to hit. If the check fails, the
>creature or character is unaware of the invisible opponent until it does something else that
>might reveal its presence.

10th level and 13 Int only allows the attacker to pinpoint the target and ignore the -4 to hit penalty.
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>45025125
The Fighter (lvl 10 exactly at 500,000 XP) is facing an Invisible Mage, the location of which he does not know and cannot be reasonably expected to know since his Intelligence is unlikely to be 13 or better. Now what is he going to do to stop the Mage from casting Stoneskin, thereby negating his next six to nine attacks entirely even once he can finally see the Mage once the Mage's Invisibility ends - which is only going to be when the Mage chooses for it to end himself because, again, the Fighter does not have the means to end it himself in any way that could be considered reliable.

Having done nothing to stop Stoneskin, because he cannot, what is the Fighter then going to do to protect himself from Charm Person, Suggestion, or Domination? Any one of these ends the encounter in favor of the Wizard since the Wizard can then have the Fighter strip out of all of his gear and stand still, at which point the Mage grabs the Fighter's weapons and armor and then just leaves the 30'x30' room. By any definition he has "won" the encounter.

Again, for emphasis, we are not doing the 3.X thing where we assume that the Mage (who has specialized into Illusion) magically has access to every single possible spell at all times. The Mage's spellbook has been specifically limited to the following, with the number of times memorized in parentheses:

- 1st: Charm Person (2), Phantasmal Force (3)
- 2nd: Invisibility (3), Summon Swarm (2)
- 3rd: Spectral Force (2), Suggestion (2)
- 4th: Hallucinatory Terrain (1), Stoneskin (2)
- 5th: Advanced Illusion (1), Domination (2)

(the Illusionist can memorize 1 extra spell per spell level as long as that spell is an Illusion spell; I forgot that earlier, so in fact his spells per day are 5/5/4/3/3)

Also, this, >>45026973.
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>>45028582
>the location of which he does not know and cannot be reasonably expected to know since his Intelligence is unlikely to be 13 or better.

See >>45028390
>10th level and 13 Int only allows the attacker to pinpoint the target and ignore the -4 to hit penalty.
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>>45028582
Charm person just makes the fighter friendly. That doesn't mean he's going to strip down just because the mage asked.

Also, we're assuming the wizard could learn suggestion and domination, but not that the fighter might have slightly above average intelligence?

What's next, assuming the fighter has 6 Con?
>>
Rolled 3, 1, 2, 4, 3, 4, 3, 6, 5, 4, 2, 2, 1, 1, 5, 6, 5, 1 = 58 (18d6)

>>45028809
>Also, we're assuming the wizard could learn suggestion and domination

We're assuming that because our theoretical Illusionist has been freshly created at 10th level. As emphasized multiple times this (10 spells) is actually the *bare minimum* number of spells the Illusionist could know since he ONLY knows spells from leveling up; or in other words this method assumes that not once in 500,000 XP worth of adventures did the Illusionist copy any spell into his spellbook beyond the ones he gets automatically when gaining new levels.

>What's next, assuming the fighter has 6 Con?

No, although the Fighter is statistically unlikely to have many scores above 10. Each time he rolls the die he has an equal chance of getting 11 or better that he does having a 10 or worse.

Let's roll 3d6 6 times right now (18d6) and see what the Fighter has, shall we?
>>
Rolled 5, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 2, 2, 2, 4, 2, 3, 3 = 57 (18d6)

>>45029016
Ooh, sucks to be the Fighter...

3+1+2 = 6
4+3+4 = 11
3+6+5 = 14
4+2+2 = 8
1+1+5 = 7
6+5+1 = 12

So the Fighter has 6, 11, 14, 8, 7, and 12 to distribute amongs his scores. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume the 14 goes into STR and the 12 into CON.

You know what, this roll sucks. Let's let the Fighter have another array, and he can pick his preference of the two.
>>
>>45029016
>>45029056
1. Any class with lower ability scores is statistically less likely to reach level 10 in the first place. Your premise of creating classes at 10th level has to account for the journey not just for the mage, but for the fighter as well.
You're proving nothing by rolling up new stats right here because they aren't representative of actual play.
2. The Fighter gets an army at 9th level. Good luck charming all of those men once the fighter commands them to fire a volley of arrows directly at your mage attempting to cast charm person, which would likely be soundly defeated by the fighter's superior saving throws at 10th.
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>>45029056
Whelp. 12, 12, 7, 10, 8, 8

I sense the Fighter will be going with his first rolls then. Now, let's see what the Wizard gets, and he is going to be allowed ONLY this single array. In fact, let's do one better: if the array exceeds a total of 58 (the array the Fighter is using) by more than 5 (64+), the Wizard must re-roll until he has a total under this number (63 or less).
>>
>>45029081
>You're proving nothing by rolling up new stats right here because they aren't representative of actual play.

Neither is a Wizard with only 10 spells known.

>2. The Fighter gets an army at 9th level

And the wizard got the ability to create magical devices galore at level 9 and has been able to do so for several hundreds of thousands of XP worth of adventures; besides which, "I can defeat one guy provided I have a dozen guys backing me up" does not do much to support the idea that the Fighter is the equal of the Mage.
>>
Rolled 5, 3, 4, 4, 3, 6, 6, 1, 2, 1, 2, 6, 5, 1, 3, 1, 3, 6 = 62 (18d6)

>>45029083
Oops, forgot to roll.
>>
>>45029127
Whelp, it's under the number. 12, 13, 10, 9, 9, 10. Oh look, the Mage's ability to cast spells is almost totally unhindered...
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>>45029116
The army is a fighter class feature. The same as the mage's spells. The spells specifically tailored to facing a fighter alone.
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>>45029116
>a dozen guys

That only counts his personal bodyguard. The fighter gets a literal army, and the possibility of being an actual baron. Don't make me bust out the rules for siege engines and show you the effective distances for a ballista vs a fireball spell. 'Cause I've done it, and it's not good for the wizard's tower.

The original scenario was that the both of them appear out of nowhere and are dropped into a small room with no prep.
>>
>>45029116
>And the wizard got the ability to create magical devices galore at level 9
>galore
Give me a break. This isn't 3.5
For each magic item created, the Wizard needs that item's experience value in materials, which can only be acquired through adventuring.
>>
>>45029116
>"I can defeat one guy provided I have a dozen guys backing me up"
Try 130 at the maximum, plus an elite commander follower which is only a few levels lower than the Fighter.
That's not counting any hirelings or henchmen he might have.
>>
>>45029144
>The spells specifically tailored to facing a fighter alone.

More single combat in general. Invisibility and Stoneskin are just generally useful spells. The other Illusion spells (not even being used) are useful in a wide variety of situations. Charm/Suggestion/Dominate are utterly invaluable as well provided you do not expect to face nonhumanoids. Perhaps this is a urban wizard, a court magician, who has settled down from his adventuring days. Jafar from Aladdin.

You want I should randomly determine the wizard's spells known instead?

By the by, the Fighter only gets aforementioned army if he has a stronghold, castle, or other base of operations, which is NOT a class feature. We can assume that the Fighter has one, if you like, but if so then the Mage is allowed to start selecting equipment as well.
>>
>>45029186
At 500,000 XP the Mage has been level 11 for 125,000 XP, granting the mage that much leeway to expend XP and maintain his current level. If nothing else that's enough for a number of spell scrolls and/or wands.

Again, if you want to start equipping the fighter beyond weapons and armor, then the Mage is going to be allowed to start equipping himself beyond his spellbook and component pouch.
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>>45024037
Horrible
Awful
Debatable until 5e gets psionics proper
Kender, Elves
Debatable until 5e gets more supplements
>>
>>45029218

The Fighter gets 10-40 troops, 10-30 elite units, and a 5th-7th level leader AS a class feature, see the PHB. (Attracting more requires the castle or stronghold.) It's hardly just "a dozen guys," it runs from 21 to 71 men, with the leader being nearly as dangerous as the Fighter himself.
And it was the wizardfag who started bringing in the mage's summons and magical item creation and stuff because the initial 1v1 wasn't looking good.
>>
>2e

I've never played, but a friend wants me to join. I have one question regarding this however.

THAC0 works like this, right? A character has (for example) THAC0 20. A target has AC 9. So you subtract AC from THAC0 to get the minimum number you need to roll to hit (in the example's case, 11) right?

Meaning if your THAC0 is 14 and your opponent has -2 AC, you'd have to roll 16+ because 14-(-2)?
>>
>>45029349

Yes. That's how you should use THAC0. Thank you for not being one of the legion of crayon-eating fuckwits that can't figure it out and blame the system instead of their deficient basic math skills.
>>
>>45029349

Yeah, that works. I just do Roll-THAC0 = AC you hit. So you have a THAC0 of 14, and you rolled a 16, that's 14-16=-2.

Alternately add his AC to your roll and see if it meets or exceeds your THAC0.
>>
>>45029349
No, you've got it all wrong. You're character has a Thaco of 20, so you need to roll a 20 to hit, but you add the enemies armor class, so if whatever you roll plus 9 is =>20, you hit. Understand?
>>
>>45029421
...Isn't that just a different way of reaching the same end result? Both imply an 11+ result = hit.
>>
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>>45029421
>look mom, I trolled the 4channels!
>>
>>45029440
You have to respect the procedure, man.
>>
>>45029449
I mean, if there's a theoretical value you can attain in the game that makes the two techniques yield different results, sure.

Is there one?
>>
>>45024130
>Ugh I can't believe you're taking away my options
>Infinite customization is what really makes this game
>I should be able to have as specific an alignment as I want to and it shouldn't actually restrict my behavior in any manner
>and all races are really just the same inside so you shouldn't be able to tell people what they can and can't do you fantasy nazi

God Damn the Boomers and their fucking free everything ideology. Balanced restrictions are what make a game fun. What's the point of being an alignment if it has no effect on your character or is so specific that it basically separates them into an alignment of their own.
>>
>>45029345
Pg. 37 of my AD&D PHB:
>"When a fighter attains 9th level (becomes a "lord"), he can automatically attract men-at-arms. [...] To attract the men, the fighter must have a castle or stronghold and sizeable manor lands around it."

The Fighter *can* attract men, but he needs the stronghold first. You wanna give the Fighter the stronghold? Fine. But the Mage gets to start equipping himself too.

I never brought up Summons, except in the sense of Summon Swarm being on the Illusionists' spells known, but the spell didn't even come up (it really does come down to the various Enchantment spells). I brought up magic item creation only in response to someone else bringing up the men-at-arms. Both are class features gained at 9th level, and it's the Fighterfags who tried to make the game not 1v1 to start with.

Quid pro quo. If the Fighter gets his stronghold and men-at-arms, then the Mage gets his magic item creation and whatever other magic items he has that roughly approximate the value of the stronghold. If the Fighter is going to get more than his basic arms and armor going in, then so too should the Mage.

Unless your argument has now become "A 500K XP Fighter can totally beat a 500K XP Mage, provided the Mage has the bare minimum of spells known, only his spellbook and component pouch, and no other items; whereas I have a hundred-plus guys and a stronghold backing me up, because that's part of my class description, that I get an army, but no, the Wizard is not going to be allowed to have his own crafted magic items, even though that's part of his class description."

You want Blackrazor too while your at it?
>>
>>45029470
No, I'm just demonstrating the backwards process that is Thaco, because someone, somewhere thought THAT whole process was less arcane than "Armor Class is the number you need to roll to hit. Add your Accuracy bonus to your roll, or subtract it from the target-AC to get your to-hit number".
>>
>>45029477
>Balanced restrictions are what make a game fun.

How is the game balanced by not allowing elves to be druids? I'm not even talking about level restrictions; whatever. I'm talking about how elves cannot even take a single level into Druid at all.

Really, this extends to every class. How does the game become unbalanced by allowing gnomes to be level 1 bards or dwarves to be level 1 Mages?
>>
>>45029496

Summons were brought up in the thread yesterday.
>>
>>45029477
Alignment is stupid to begin with, never been a good system.
>>
>>45029506
> "Armor Class is the number you need to roll to hit. Add your Accuracy bonus to your roll, or subtract it from the target-AC to get your to-hit number".
No, you roll the die and then you subtract the opponent's AC. If the result is equal to or greater than your Accuracy, you hit.

Your proposal about THAC0-based calculation seems to apply here, too.
>>
>>45029531
Morality is tricky no matter what you do. It's not like World of Darkness, for example, really did it any better.

>Intent
There are CONSEQUENCES for being a bastard!

>But actually...
There is a mechanical point at which your character is okay with and justified in using murder and mayhem to achieve his goals.
>>
THAC0 has two flaws:
1. It requires an extra step. Player rolls, has to wait for the DM to apply AC, then say what the number is, then the player checks their THAC0 to see if hits.
Compare: Player rolls 16+3. "Does it hit?" Less waiting involved. Could just be seconds, but that's seconds saved on every roll. And that's assuming everyone has every relevant stat block memorized.


2. It informs the players of a monster's AC, because the DM has to essentially tell the player the modifier so the player can check their THAC0. I have yet to meet a DM that wants to give out monster stats directly. The player can guess at the monster's AC if a 19 hits, but they don't know the exact minimum roll required.
>>
>>45029629

Or player rolls, subtracts his THAC0, and tells the GM what AC he hit. THAC0 is 14, I rolled a 16. 14-16= "Hey, I hit -2 AC. Does that hit him?"

No "extra steps," no giving away AC.
>>
>>45029629
>he doesn't keep track of his players' most relevant combat values

Regardless of whether you use AC as TN or THAC0, your players should be able to just tell you what they rolled and have you be able to do the elementary school math pretty much instantly. No need to tell them the enemy's AC either way, and they'll be able to get a rough feel for their chance to hit through natural means (ex: "I hit these goblins on a 16, so I know I have at least a 25% chance to hit" stuff).
>>
>>45025572
You! I like you!
>>
>>45029345
1v1..
In 2nd ed?

Gonna be left up to luck and the cleverness of the PCs.

Mage doesn't have an edge.
>>
>>45024021
This so so much.

Literally the best system for psionics.
>>
>>45024226
>restrictions arbitrary

Nigga wut?
>>
>>45029999

That was what I was getting at.
>>
>>45025572
Nigger, no one said jack SHIT about competition.

It's about the fact the druid gets a pet that can do all you can.

It's about the wizard cracking open his book, and you might as well not even be there.

But of course, you'll ignore the facts of the matter, and instead scream and whinge about that fantastic strawman you set up.
>>
>>45030141
And I'm supporting what you were getting at.

Caster supremacy? Not so much in 2ed.
>>
>>45030156
So...you've never played 2ed.

OK.
>>
>>45030191
Please note where the post I replied to said a single fucking thing about 2e, please? Nigga was throwing a bitchfit about game balance.
>>
>>45024107
>>45024122
Each new point of AC gained is worth more the higher your AC is.

Each point keeps being better and better until you go from making enemies only hit you on 19-20, to them hitting you on a 20; a doubling.

In theory, if a 20 wasn't a guaranteed hit, another point of AC would be worth infinity.

Now tell me, do you think powergaming AC bonuses are worth more in a system with low stat bloat where it's nearly impossible to "get ahead" of enemies by some large number, or in one with high stat bloat where it's easy?
>>
>>45030221
And you assumed 3.x instead of backreading. Good job.
>>
>>45030235
His argument stands on it's own in it's retardendess, cunt.

He threw a wobbler about GAME BALANCE. It's edition agnostic. Now please, go suck off a shotgun.
>>
>>45030169
If you only play the first 10 levels like EVERYONE did, then sure.
The XP tables get ridiculous after that anyway so nobody really wants to keep playing.
>>
>>45030221
>in a 2ed thread
>no one said specifically 2e!!

Stop staring into your boyfriends dickhole, and read back: BEFORE you post anon.
>>
>>45030285
10th?

We only made it to 9th one time.
>>
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>>45030305
Going to throw a fit now? If you backtrace, the originating post talks about 1e, or the B/X set.

Not a single fucking mention of 2e.

But again, bitchnigga threw a fit about game balance in general.

I gave an example of why game balance is actually a GOOD THING.

Done screeing at the sky, or need to have another go?
>>
>>45030258
>thread about trying 2e
>edition agnostic!!

kek

Poor casterfaggots..
>>
>>45030258
>>
>>45023903

Why not try one of the much better systems?

Why are people so obsessed with D&D?
>>
>>45030355
>2e thread
>"first post is about 1e!!"

Wut?
>>
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>>45030359
>>45030360
Since you both seem to literally be that stupid. Let's take it step by step, hm?

Here's the very first post.
>>45025075

Note not a mention of 2e. Instead, it talks about 1e, and B/X Moldvay.

Here, we see the start of the bitchfit.
>>45025370

Note the screaming ingorance, and the setting up of the strawman.

>>45025572
Here, we have his head literally vanishing up his own asshole.


But yeah, he was totally talking about 2e, and not talking about game balance in an RPG in general at alllll.
>>
>>45030336
>get lucky beyond lucky stats
>18/96 str.
>can finally be badass fighter!!!
>fail 3 saving throws vs tiny spiders in first encounter
>dead to poisoning
>motherfucker damn its hit.jpg
>>
>>45024021
How did AD&D handle psionics?
>>
>>45030554
Power points.
A combo of lv, wis, con, and intelligence.

Each awesome ability cost (x) to activate, and (x) to maintain.
>>
>>45029496
It's funny how the fighter needs to be up close to even have a theoretical chance at taking down the wizard. If they started in situation "you're somewhere in the same country", the fighter would be so out of luck. He would have only mundane means of tracking down the wizard at his disposal, while the wizard would also have magical abilities on top of those which to mess with the fighter. Magic just achieves everything better and easier, that's why it's called magic in the first place.
>>
>>45030597
Also psioncs were divided into two tiers, devotions and sciences, and the stronger tier powers often needed several lower ones as prerequisites.
>>
>>45030554
Power points. And really cool abilities. Unique enough to not be confused with casterfag spells.
>>
>>45030604
Yes yes lad, casters are unbeatable, blah blah.

We hear you, we just know you're full of shit, and are talking out of your anus.
>>
>>45030625
Reqs for picking powers.. Made a lot of sense.
>>
>>45030604
> that's why it's called magic in the first place.
This makes no sense, you realize?
Magic is not a compound word. It doesn't obviously and immediately mean anything that you can refer to with that statement.

"That's why it's called Apple Pie" works.
"That's why it's called Smafgromble" does not work.
>>
>>45030661
I don't mind playing Fighters in 2e, but when I do, I roll a wizard and summon several of them and then turn myself into one except I have DR.
>>
>>45030661
Right, full of shit, no party ever needed a wizard...
>>
>complaining about spellcasters vs. martials
Holy shit you fucking retards, if you want something to actually complain about complain about the fucking multiclass rules that massively favor having them in a party over anything else.
>>
>>45030929
>favor multiclassing
Wut?
>>
>>45030929
Well not really. They gain levels slower, making them gain spells at a much reduced pace - and spells are pretty much the only signifigant class feature (unlike in 3.5 onwards where they're plentiful)
>>
>>45030908
>move goal post to other end of field

Mkay.
>>
>>45030763
Fail troll.
>>
>>45031037
You have to admit that you get more out of wizard levels than fighter levels, it's simple math.
>>
>>45031190
Not in 2e really.
>>
>>45031037

This thread taught me that magic is really good for moving goalposts.
>>
>>45031282
And that casterfags are a recent phenomenon.
>>
>>45031217
Especially in 2e, anon. Haven't you played it? There are few class powers and you mostly start with those already, no stat gains, no feats. Spells are just about the only thing that brings new tricks on the table.
>>
>>45030597
Oh hell yes anon.

Plus prereqs. Plus major and minors. Plus power scores...
>>
>>45024341
I always thought elves can't be druids because they don't die of old age which means they are outside of the cycle of life that druids revere. Also doesn't mean they can't still love nature
>>
>>45031533
Can't have the soul of a druid, if you don't have a soul.

Sorry, no elves.
>>
>>45031533
>I always thought elves can't be druids because they don't die of old age which means they are outside of the cycle of life that druids revere.

That's... really stupid logic. MOST things in nature don't ever reach the point of dying of old age, they die of getting fucking killed and eaten, or to disease, or to a random whoops-I'm-fucked injury, or a million other things, which elves do just fine.
>>
>>45024096
Fucking gnolls and their disarming..
I remember those fuckers.
>>
>>45031604
So your logic is that its not unnatural to have an unnatural lifespan, because...some things die bloody deaths?

Wut?
>>
>>45031684
Unnatural deaths, you meant.
>>
I prefered how they did clerics/priests. I loved the different spheres and how you had access to many. Actually felt like the different domains of a god. With 5e you just get one domain.
Thread replies: 216
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