>>45023941 In some ways, 5e tries to capture the feeling of AD&D (unsuccessfully in my opinion). Stat bloat is non-existent. Ability scores matter a lot less. Casters have sensible restrictions and powers. Player characters, despite being extremely capable at higher levels, are still human. Saving throws matter a lot more, and playing smart and cleverly (lessening the amount of saving throws you might need to make) is more essential at higher levels.
>>45023960 >>45023977 >this meme Thac0 is your target number. Roll the dice. Add your opponent's armor class. Does it meet or exceed the Thac0? then you hit. Does it not? You miss. Just think of Thac0 as the number you need to beat, rather than the opponent's armor class.
>>45024002 2e is more challenging as a system. 5e gives you TWO saving throws to avoid triggering a trap, even when you fail to discover the trap. 5e gives you 3 "death saving throws" after you go down to negative hit points. All healing immediately is treated as if you had 0 hit points, so being healed for 1 hit point, even if you're at -9, results in you having 1 HP. Without challenge, there is no fun.
I always preferred Basic to AD&D. For AD&D, though, 1e has the great exposition from Gygax in the DMG, which has loads of good advice on things, while 2e is better for referencing stuff since it's a lot easier to find in the clearer layout. 2e also takes all the 1e Advanced rules and explicitly says "these are all optional" which is a good thing, IMO. Everyone ran 1e modularly like that anyway, and generally with THAC0 instead of attack tables, so it's good to make those things all official.
2e does fuck with the dungeon crawling mechanics, though, which sucks. Dungeon crawling was not a big focus anymore by that time, and people who didn't understand why it worked the way it did tried to "fix" things like the slow movement rates in dungeons, which throws the balance all out of whack.
Actually in 5E it's very much the reverse - your ability scores are HUGELY important, since they're functionally the only things that add numerical bonuses to whatever check you make.
>Roll the dice. Add your opponent's armor class. Does it meet or exceed the Thac0? then you hit.
Even if this is "easy" in some arcane universe after practice and getting used to it, that doesn't change that ascending armor class remains easiER, and considerably more intuitive since it's more in-line with other system mechanics.
There is no actual benefit to THAC0 over ascending AC, but there is a benefit to ascending AC over THAC0.
>>45024107 >Actually in 5E it's very much the reverse - your ability scores are HUGELY important, since they're functionally the only things that add numerical bonuses to whatever check you make Sorry if that was confusing. That line was talking about 2e. Not 5e.
>>45024107 >Even if this is "easy" in some arcane universe after practice and getting used to it, that doesn't change that ascending armor class remains easiER Look. It's the exact same. Neither one is more difficult. In 3.5 and beyond, you think of AC as the number to beat. In 2e, you think of your Thac0 as the number to beat. That's the only difference.
>>45024122 Ah, I see. Because, see, a lot of what you're typing out applies equally well to 5E as to 2E.
Everyone is thrown off by how fuck powerful they were in 3E, everyone always seems to forget that casters in AD&D weren't nobody's fool either. They had weirder rules than in 3E onwards, but put a Fighter with 500,000 XP and a Mage with 500,000 XP in a 30 ft x 30 ft blank room and tell 'em to fight it out, and I know who I'm betting on every time. And it's not the Fighter.
>>45024160 It seems like in 2e, the fighter (or other warrior) is not only recommended, it's essential for the survival of your casters. Most olden days groups would have two fighters for every mage they had in the group, because an enemy getting any attack at all on a magic user was devastating.
The fighter, paladin, and ranger were really the only classes you wanted to have in a straight up fight with anything. The cleric could in a pinch, but the cleric had the same HD as any enemy, which made it a coin flip.
>>45024138 Again, ascending AC has the benefit of lining up better with other extant mechanics.
To pass a save, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you. To pass a skill check, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you. To pass an attack roll, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you."
See? Everything lines up neater, rather than having THAC0 be the exception: "To pass an attack roll, you need to hit a number provided by you, modified by the target."
It's not "exactly the same" because it notably goes against the grain. The end result may be the same but that doesn't change that the unified mechanic is just fundamentally by virtue of being a unified mechanic.
AD&D seems like a neat system if you've been playing it since the 90s, but it looks hard to pick up and play. Also, I've heard that almost no one plays with rules as written and every group houserules the more obtuse parts of it.
>>45024177 The restrictions are completely arbitrary though. It's just shit Gygax put in the game mostly because he hated demi-humans.
>>45024209 *fundamentally better. Sorry, it's late where I am.
>>45024193 >it's essential for the survival of your casters.
To a point. Past that point AD&D spellcasters can, as in 3E, start providing their own muscle as the situation warrants via summon or charm/dominate effects, provided they even feel the need and don't shut down attacks against them any number of other ways. To say nothing of their out-of-combat utility being vastly greater than that of any other class, again due to spellcasting: the Tier system was in full effect and casters were still fundamentally higher-Tier than noncasters.
3E widened the gap, but I do not look back on AD&D as the halcyon days of the noncaster, because it wasn't.
>>45024226 the demi-humans get powers and abilities (like infra-vision and multi-classing to name a few) that humans do not get. It's also worth noting that leveling beyond 12 has diminishing returns on raw power. The restrictions are a balancing mechanic. The one advantage to playing a human is the lack of level limits. That's it.
>>45024226 Dwarves not being able to be wizards is wholly derived from the fact that Gimli was not a wizard, for example. That's it. It's not even based on anything broader in larger LotR lore; Nowhere in any of Tolkien's works are dwarves said to be particularly distrustful of magic, and the folklore that dwarves stem from have them as mighty artificers and spellcasters in their own right just like elves (mostly because the folklore they come from poorly distinguishes the two).
Plus in AD&D you get really weird stuff like elves, the nature-loving ponces of the forest, not being allowed to be Druids.
In AD&D, I'd bet on the Fighter. Multiple attacks, Great saves vs SoD spells that didn't increase in difficulty, and the MU gets no concentration checks to avoid losing his spell if he got hit while casting. The Fighter will be up in the mage's face doing his best impression of a blender in no time. Even worse, make him a specialized dart fighter and he won't even have to move to wreck the Magic User's day. 5 darts per round, 1d3+3 damage per hit, and he's almost guaranteed to win initiative.
This is leaving out the Fighter's infantry and bodyguards, who will exist in large numbers by level 10, and could tackle the mage's summons and things.
>>45024226 >every group houserules the more obtuse parts of it. Honestly I and every other GM I've known have done this with every tabletop RPG we've ever played. It's not a sign of a badly made game, it's a sign that groups, and the people in them, are not clones of each other. Everybody plays a bit different. That being said, people do seem to play differently than they used to, and >>45024136 is right.
Of course, if you want to go really old school, you could always find a scan of the original red and blue books...
>>45024264 Isn't the human ability to dual-class superior to multiclassing in every way because you don't have to split experience points?
Also when you start dual-classing, you forget everything about your old class until you catch up in levels to your new class. But then suddenly you get all your abilities from your old class and with no experience penalty. How the fuck does that even happen?
>>45024310 True, but most RPGs published in the 80s and 90s have way more arbitrary bullshit to houserule because 80s and 90s RPG design was when the majority of gamers were math nerds that loved formulas and random tables.
>>45024304 Admittedly I have not read all of the books that Gygax listed as recommended reading. I do not, however, understand why elves, who are explicitly described within the corpus of existing AD&D material written by or with input by Gygax himself as nature-loving sylvan creatures who love trees and forests and the natural world, are not allowed to take levels in the Druid class, but rather only humans and half-elves are.
For that matter I don't understand why elves, who are further described as lovers of song and lore and art and culture, are not allowed to be Bards. Perhaps this stems from the fact that Bard is the original prestige class that required, among other things, a level in Druid, which elves cannot take.
AD&D class restrictions were completely, utterly, and senselessly arbitrary.
>>45024315 >Isn't the human ability to dual-class superior to multiclassing in every way because you don't have to split experience points? Dual-classing is only possible in the first place if you roll a 17 or 18 in all the prime requisites of the class you want to dual-class into. >Also when you start dual-classing, you forget everything about your old class until you catch up in levels to your new class. But then suddenly you get all your abilities from your old class and with no experience penalty. You don't "forget". What you do is take a gamble. You're making yourself less powerful for your level in order to build yourself as the new class from the ground up. You could, for example, use the saving throws from your first class in order to survive a fireball, but you would have spoiled the building up of your second class and would need to earn the experience points of your most recent levels again. Think of it like... taking on a whole new lifestyle and way of looking at the world. That's tough to do in real life, much more in a world of magic.
>>45023903 I have been playing dnd since 1985. I was 8 years old when my friend got me into it. Now, I will say that dnd 2ed sucks though. The fighter is worthless beyond level 3. The level caps don't mean much as no one ever gets to them. The demihumans are OP as fuck (half elf ftr/clr/wiz is a good example). Druids didn't make any sense (turn into a sparrow and then a blue whale, fall on opponent and kill them). It's just a bad bad system. Horrible. Now, 5th edition took all the ease of play that 2nd had and simplified it all. I would say that 5th is far superior to 2nd edition for game play and equality of classes. Oh yeah, btw, they had the best monster manuals in that edition. Easy to convert those beasties into 5th edition, have fun and best of luck.
>>45024341 >nature-loving sylvan creatures who love trees and forests and the natural world, are not allowed to take levels in the Druid class, but rather only humans and half-elves are. Your flawed analysis is not with elves. It's with druids. Druids protect the forest, yes, but they are not denizens of the forest per-se. Druids are very much preservers of the forest, and take care of the land as self-appointed stewards of it. That's not what an elf is. An elf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the forest. They didn't choose to defend the forest out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have.
>>45024384 >How can they be a balancing mechanic when most groups never hit them?
They're not about balancing players against each other, they're about balancing the world. Elves don't hit higher levels for metaphysical reasons, which means the world is not utterly dominated by hundreds of 1,000 year old level 36 elves. Short-lived humans burn brightest, just not for long.
>>45024366 >turn into a sparrow and then a blue whale, fall on opponent and kill them impossible. A blue whale's HD is well beyond what a 20th level druid could transform into by the rules of their own shapeshifting powers.
Your analysis is total crap in many other ways. I don't know what edition YOU'VE been playing, but it's not 2e.
>>45024337 This is true. I really loved the 1e and 2e rulebooks for their clinical neatness, ut I hated them for how much of a pain in the ass it was to find tables. Some of them seemed to be in logical places, others didn't, and some that you'd think would appear together were in totally different sections of the book. 2e seemed to be really bad for this and at one point I put labeled post-its as bookmarks just so I could find shit without holding up gameplay for ten minutes while I found some crucial table that wasn't included on the DM screen.
But yeah I still can't figure out why they put that fake calligraphy-guide-lines bullshit behind all the text in the 3e and later books. I guess they intended it to look cool and arcane and shit, but the typeface doesn't look handwritten at all so it looks dumb, plus it makes it hard as fuck to read even if you don't have old eyes like mine.
>>45023988 thaco: to hit armor class "0" your thaco- targets AC=roll to meet or beat it to hit.
AC in that game can never go below -10. Thaco, never below 1 (only achieved with a lvl 20 ftr/pal/rgr). Game was broken IMO, I played alot. Hint, if you play a human go duel class. Get a str 15+ and a primary stat of your main class 17+. Then play human ftr till lvl 5 or so, get tons of weapon slots and a spec (get the combat guide book or the kits from he various handbooks too). Now at lvl 5 you change classes. become a lvl 1 wizard with a lvl 1 wizard thaco and saves till lvl 5 again. Bonus, you have a lvl 5ftr's HP! boom, you're going to be the baddest mother fucking wizard or rogue in the game. Best of luck.
>>45024414 >(only achieved with a lvl 20 ftr/pal/rgr) Not only is that literally impossible by the rules as written, it still wouldn't bring your Thac0 below 1. What the fuck are you talking about? >Game was broken IMO, I played alot. Hint, if you play a human go duel class. Get a str 15+ and a primary stat of your main class 17+ Good luck rolling that on 6 rolls of 3d6.
>>45024304 The Fighter cannot fly and has no way to see through invisibility. Also if we're going by the Initiative rules in at least my copy of the AD&D PHB (2nd Edition, 1995), then Initiative is by default determined by rolling a flat d10; low roll wins. So the Fighter actually only has a flat 50/50 shot of going first, he's not "guaranteed" to win anything.
Invisibility only has a casting time of 2, so it's not like it bumps the Mage up the Initiative all that much; and besides which, the casting time rules are actually OPTIONAL, not part of the base game. If the Wizard wins initiative (again, 50/50 shot by default), then by default the wizard's gonna turn invisible and the Fighter's gonna be left holding his darts and not knowing what to do.
And you don't target Save VS Death, you target Save VS Spell. Charm Person, Scare, Suggestion, Evard's Black Tentacles, Domination, Hold Monster (against whcih the Fighter will have a -3 penalty on his save thanks to being the only target), and so on.
But none of this happens until the Invisible wizard casts Stoneskin, which simply outright negates 1d4 attacks plus 1 attack per two levels (so our 500,000 XP Mage, who would be 10th level, outright negates 1d4+5 attacks against his person). Stoneskin also isn't an attack and so doesn't negate the Invisibility.
Hell, the Mage should actually probably start with Stoneskin and then turn Invisible.
>>45024488 I'm more confused as to why someone would think it's a good idea. And I'm almost certain that it isn't all the supplements, Mystara and Forgotten Realms alone could break the 26-splat count.
>>45024502 It's true though. Read one of the old Dragon articles (around issues #60-70) where he increases level limits and he passive-aggressively complains about how demi-humans are supposed to be sidekicks and every one should really be playing humans.
>>45024552 Where will the wizard learn any of those spells? They do not get to automatically learn any spell they want. They need to find them in scrolls or enemy wizard spellbooks, and then roll their percentage chance to actually learn them.
>>45024574 Humans have a spark of greatness in them. Otherwise they would not only be shorter-lived than any other race, but also have no special powers to make up for it. You might as well remove humans from the game at that point.
Well, I'm going with the optional weapon speed rules. Invisibility is only a -4 to attack, which is nothing to a 10th level fighter, even if he doesn't just have 13 INT and spot the MU outright with a save: >All highly Intelligent (Intelligence 13 or more) creatures with 10 or more Hit Dice or levels of >experience have a chance to detect invisible objects (they roll saving throws vs. spell; >success means they noticed the invisible object).
>>45024605 >Humans have a spark of greatness in them. The only thing they have is the author's bias in favor of them. If Elves got all the goodies Humans do and Humans were relegated to supporting roles you'd be shitting yourself over how the game is some nerd's terrible self-insert fantasy.
>You might as well remove humans from the game at that point. So unless Humans are munchkinbait they should just be excised from the game entirely?
>>45024093 I don't play it anymore so I'll let others answer it. I just have good memories of the edition, I like the various classes. Things were designed in a way that made everything feel very mysterious, but it was also very crunchy. Powers were weird and obviously founded on various aspects of fiction and mythology in a way that 5e isn't.
but I really like 5e and think its my favorite edition so far, but thats why I'm mostly trying to lurk this thread instead of answering your OP, sorry
>>45024588 This is a 10th level Mage with 500,000 XP behind him - do you know the sheer length of time it takes to get that much XP in AD&D? Most of the spells I mentioned are 2nd level (i.e., available starting level 3), including Invisibility, Stoneskin,
At the very least a specialist wizard gets a spell of his or her specialized school automatically at each new spell level (again, according to my aforementioned copy of the AD&D PHB), guaranteeing such a specialist a minimum of 5 spells. It'd take a bastard of a DM to restrict a 500K XP Mage to just those ive spells, however. Expecting such a Mage to automatically have at least, say, one spell per spell level (so 10 total if specialized), is by no means unreasonable, and was in fact the standard recommended in the AD&D DMG (by default it is left to the DM to decide, but again, it'd have to be a bastard DM who doesn't let a newly-created 10th level Mage have any spells at all).
>>45024834 >guaranteeing such a specialist a minimum of 5 spells Yes, but ONLY in his or her specialization. Most of the spells listed by the guy saying 2e is also "caster edition" weren't in the same school at all.
>>45024759 >An elf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the forest. They didn't choose to defend the forest out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have. >Therefore elves cannot be Druids
This makes about as much sense as,
>A Spartan's entire culture and racial identity is tied to warfare. They didn't choose to defend Sparta out of reverence for their polis. They do it because it's all they have. >Therefore Spartans cannot be Fighters.
It works (or doesn't) equally well with Dwarfs, actually.
>An dwarf's entire culture and racial identity is tied to the mine. They didn't choose to defend the mine out of reverence. They do it because it's all they have. >Therefore dwarves cannot be miners
>>45024049 >negative hit points No such thing in my games!!
Still play 2E. You can strip it down and use it like basic BECMI, or add on all the options and go full retard. This includes weapon speeds, weapon damage versus armour type, movement rates all of it.
And this whole THAC0 this is played out bullshit. I grew up with it. Finally playing a system that used a d20 to roll high with no target number (because THAC0 at least gave you something to aim for) was totally alien, totally unintuative, totally broken. It felt badly designed, and badly thought out. Really obscure.
The system itself is really modular, just remember that you roll high on hitting things and saving throws, roll low on a few other things like thief skills and you're good to go.
Monster levels are easy to run too. 1HD (D8) per level for a monster unless specified otherwise. Eyeball the level of the party, throw a load of monsters at them that have enough HPs to be a challenge or pain in the ass depending how you feel.
Rulings not rules. Guides not dogma, that is what pre-3.pf.bs is all about. Different mindset.
As for 5E? Dunno, never played it, but when the basic was released it seemed that every class got special magical skills at each level which was weird. Didn't grok that.
>Everyone is thrown off by how fuck powerful they were in 3E, everyone always seems to forget that casters in AD&D weren't nobody's fool either. They had weirder rules than in 3E onwards, but put a Fighter with 500,000 XP and a Mage with 500,000 XP in a 30 ft x 30 ft blank room and tell 'em to fight it out, and I know who I'm betting on every time. And it's not the Fighter.
>>45024856 Geh, it is in mine as well. Sorry. 4 AM where I am. Sleepy, making mistakes.
Point is that it's not unreasonable (and actually recommended per AD&D DMG) at all for a 10th level Mage to begin knowing 10 spells, if specialized, with 5 being required to be of the specialized school. This is, in fact, actually the bare minimum - it assumes that this mage has ONLY ever acquired automatic spells from leveling up, and has never once acquired a spell through adventuring.
Said Mage's spellbook might then look like the following, if an Illusionist (and therefore no Necromancy spells): - 1st: Charm Person, Phantasmal Force - 2nd: Invisibility, Summon Swarm - 3rd: Spectral Force, Suggestion - 4th: Hallucinatory Terrain, Stoneskin - 5th: Advanced Illusion, Domination
The Fighter has no real responses to the various Enchantment spells, can't get past the Stoneskin, has a poor chance of seeing through the Invisibility (what Fighter has an INT 13 in AD&D?), is screwed over by the various other Illusions; and has nothing to deal with the Summon Swarm to any great extent, either.
And again, these are the bare minimum spells that a 10th level Wizard could know; and at 10th level the wizard can in fact have at least one instance of each of these memorized (4/4/3/2/2 for spells per day at 10th level).
The Fighter does enjoy myriad advantages that Fighters in 3E wouldn't; the gap is not as big. But it most certainly is still there.
>>45024281 Sorta makes sense, the way I read it, the early iterations of the druid class were closer to the source material: a Druid being simply equivalent to a priest in some human societies, as opposed to it being a special sort of nature wizard thing.
I mean, Druids aren't all about nature, historically they were more about legislature, astronomy and human sacrifice.
>>45024876 >and a bag of flour negates invisibility
In AD&D a character can move and cast a spell, or cast a spell and then move, just as in later editions. In this case a spellcaster would turn Invisible and the move...anywhere. Unless the Fighter is wielding several hundred pounds worth of flour, he's not going to know where to throw the flour to reveal the Invisible Mage unless said Fighter is exceptionally attentive.
>>45024955 Again, as was discussed, it is reasonable to assume that a 10th level mage will know at least 5 spells, 1 for each spell level; plus 5 spells of his specialized school, 1 for each spell level, for a total of 10 spells. This is actually the bare minimum - it is suggested that the DM allow a Mage to automatically learn 1 spell per new spell level, which means that this Mage knows only the spells he gains automatically, and has never once in his 500,000 XP worth of adventures otherwise copied a new spell into his spellbook.
It's alright, but if you want real old school charm, you want to play 1st edition, which has more content and delightful Gygaxian prose.
But if you want a more functional game, I'd suggest picking up the B/X set written by Tom Moldvay (not to say AD&D isn't functional, I just feel this alternative is more tightly designed). It has all of the strengths of AD&D without the cumbersome baggage. You could also pick up a game like Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess, which are all strongly based on B/X with some tweaks.
>>45025125 That wasn't much of an argument. What answer would a fighter have for invisibility when we assume that the mage isn't a total dipshit and will move after casting?
>>45025146 Not that I agree it's a huge problem or anything, but the reason shit like this rarely comes up in anecdotal accounts is because most gamers don't typically go out of their way to stress test systems. A good example would be the nWoD threads, which wound up becoming a state of total chaos when Touhoufag started actually putting decent analysis to the character option mechanics.
Like, I get that D&D fags are mainly in it for the dungeon combat simulation, but come on. It's a game that runs on imagination where you can attempt anything, it's not Leage of Legends. "Balance" is such a weird thing to prioritize in pen and paper role-playing.
>This entire setting is shit because wizards are more dangerous than thieves. >I take no pleasure in this immersive adventure because someone else in the group, where we all cooperate is slightly better at killing things quickly than I am. >0/10, would not play, swords are totally OP compared to hayrakes.
>>45025421 But if your primary source of enjoyment is the act of killing fictional monsters that are controlled by your friend sitting across from you at the table, who wants you to win, why don't you find another competitive outlet or just shoot yourself in the mouth?
If you want to be exactly as good at something, make exactly the same character, since you're obviously not putting much stock in the other aspects of the game.
At some point you have to grow up and realize that pen and paper rpgs are probably one of the worst outlets for competition compared to other types of game.
Threads like this convince me that most people who play D&D would be happier just playing Talisman or Descent, or videogames where balancing and competition are important and prioritized. Do you honestly take some kind of pleasure in being "good" at D&D, measured in how powerful you made your character? >Wohoo, I'm a winner, I can do 3rd grade math and roll dice better than my friends!
>>45024209 I'm late to the party, but this needs to be corrected.
>To pass a save, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you. In AD&D, saving is done by rolling over a static target provided by you, modified by the difficulty >To pass a skill check, you need to hit a number provided by the target, modified by you. In AD&D, a check is done by rolling under your ability score, modified by the difficulty and proficiency.
>>45024137 >Now roll percentage... Wooohoo That's how my buddy ended up with a Dwarf Fighter 18/98str with 19Con. 3d6 legiit rolls. Was a beast. >>45024366 >The fighter is worthless beyond level 3. The fuck? That warrior con bonus, that Thaco, that multiple attacks. That Str bonus + multiple attacks = reliable damage out the ass. >The demihumans are OP as fuck (half elf ftr/clr/wiz is a good example) That having to split XP between all of your classes. Go ahead and try to cast arcane spells in Plate Armor. You're also forgetting splitting HP rolls by 3 per class level. At most you'll get 3hp for fighter level assuming you roll a 10, 2 for cleric and 1 for mage. Rounded DOWN. Plus Con bonuses are split 3 ways. Also ALL levels count towards party level. If the DM says ok start at lvl 6 everyone. That 1/2E F/CL/M is only going to be chucking cleric spells at lvl 3 and mage at level 2 VS the level 6 mage in the party totally outgunning him and the fighter smacking everything around. Obviously never hit that level gap I see. Muliclass characters are VERY long play. It's an example of learning a LOT of things over a LONG lifespan. Although slowly. >
I'm just going to step in here and say that all forms of AD&D are cumbersome messes, and that if you really want to play old school D&D play Moldvay Basic D&D. If you're thirsting for rules there's the Rules Cyclopedia which compiles just about every version of Basic together.
>>45025370 >where we all cooperate is slightly better at killing things quickly than I am. That's not a problem with the wizards. The problem with the wizards is in their vast capabilities OUTSIDE of monster killing.
Blaster wizard is still stronger than a fighter, but less endurant, there's no real problems there.
Problem is that he can create vast array of solutions to any problems the party encounters while the fighter is limited to "poke it with a sharp stick". Wizard can travel the party, can supply the party, can house the party. They become passangers on the wizard's wild ride.
>>45027216 Well, it kinda does. It you take enough damage such that your "negative" hit points equal or exceed your normal hit point value (or is it double? I forget), you flat out die with not death saves.
>>45025047 >In AD&D a character can move and cast a spell, or cast a spell and then move, just as in later editions.
From the 2E PHB: >Once the casting has begun, the character must stand still. >During the round in which the spell is cast, the caster cannot move to dodge attacks.
You roll your spell initiative at the start of the round and begin casting, and hoping not to be interrupted. At the end of your turn, it goes off. You don't get to move during that period if you're casting, by RAW.
You can move at the end, but that won't save you even if the Fighter doesn't have the 13 Int mentioned upthread, see below.
>>45025268 >What answer would a fighter have for invisibility when we assume that the mage isn't a total dipshit and will move after casting?
Well, for one thing since we're apparently bringing in the mage's summons, the fighter has an army, including an elite bodyguard led by a 5th-7th level fighter. That 30x30 room is going to be pretty crowded. Also the Fighter will have income and manpower from his castle with which to acquire things like a ring of see invisible.
The initial "drop 'em both into an empty room unannounced" scenario, before the goalpost moving, favored the Fighter since he can just run up and wreck the wizard, invisibility or no:
>When the DM thinks there is minor but sufficient cause for a creature to detect an >invisible character, a saving throw vs. spell should be made (secretly if the DM is >checking for a player character).
>If the suspicious creature or character rolls a successful saving throw, he detects some >small sign of the invisible foe's presence. He knows its general location, but not its exact >position. He can attack it with a -4 penalty on his chance to hit. If the check fails, the >creature or character is unaware of the invisible opponent until it does something else that >might reveal its presence.
10th level and 13 Int only allows the attacker to pinpoint the target and ignore the -4 to hit penalty.
>45025125 The Fighter (lvl 10 exactly at 500,000 XP) is facing an Invisible Mage, the location of which he does not know and cannot be reasonably expected to know since his Intelligence is unlikely to be 13 or better. Now what is he going to do to stop the Mage from casting Stoneskin, thereby negating his next six to nine attacks entirely even once he can finally see the Mage once the Mage's Invisibility ends - which is only going to be when the Mage chooses for it to end himself because, again, the Fighter does not have the means to end it himself in any way that could be considered reliable.
Having done nothing to stop Stoneskin, because he cannot, what is the Fighter then going to do to protect himself from Charm Person, Suggestion, or Domination? Any one of these ends the encounter in favor of the Wizard since the Wizard can then have the Fighter strip out of all of his gear and stand still, at which point the Mage grabs the Fighter's weapons and armor and then just leaves the 30'x30' room. By any definition he has "won" the encounter.
Again, for emphasis, we are not doing the 3.X thing where we assume that the Mage (who has specialized into Illusion) magically has access to every single possible spell at all times. The Mage's spellbook has been specifically limited to the following, with the number of times memorized in parentheses:
>>45028809 >Also, we're assuming the wizard could learn suggestion and domination
We're assuming that because our theoretical Illusionist has been freshly created at 10th level. As emphasized multiple times this (10 spells) is actually the *bare minimum* number of spells the Illusionist could know since he ONLY knows spells from leveling up; or in other words this method assumes that not once in 500,000 XP worth of adventures did the Illusionist copy any spell into his spellbook beyond the ones he gets automatically when gaining new levels.
>What's next, assuming the fighter has 6 Con?
No, although the Fighter is statistically unlikely to have many scores above 10. Each time he rolls the die he has an equal chance of getting 11 or better that he does having a 10 or worse.
Let's roll 3d6 6 times right now (18d6) and see what the Fighter has, shall we?
>>45029016 >>45029056 1. Any class with lower ability scores is statistically less likely to reach level 10 in the first place. Your premise of creating classes at 10th level has to account for the journey not just for the mage, but for the fighter as well. You're proving nothing by rolling up new stats right here because they aren't representative of actual play. 2. The Fighter gets an army at 9th level. Good luck charming all of those men once the fighter commands them to fire a volley of arrows directly at your mage attempting to cast charm person, which would likely be soundly defeated by the fighter's superior saving throws at 10th.
I sense the Fighter will be going with his first rolls then. Now, let's see what the Wizard gets, and he is going to be allowed ONLY this single array. In fact, let's do one better: if the array exceeds a total of 58 (the array the Fighter is using) by more than 5 (64+), the Wizard must re-roll until he has a total under this number (63 or less).
>>45029081 >You're proving nothing by rolling up new stats right here because they aren't representative of actual play.
Neither is a Wizard with only 10 spells known.
>2. The Fighter gets an army at 9th level
And the wizard got the ability to create magical devices galore at level 9 and has been able to do so for several hundreds of thousands of XP worth of adventures; besides which, "I can defeat one guy provided I have a dozen guys backing me up" does not do much to support the idea that the Fighter is the equal of the Mage.
That only counts his personal bodyguard. The fighter gets a literal army, and the possibility of being an actual baron. Don't make me bust out the rules for siege engines and show you the effective distances for a ballista vs a fireball spell. 'Cause I've done it, and it's not good for the wizard's tower.
The original scenario was that the both of them appear out of nowhere and are dropped into a small room with no prep.
>>45029116 >And the wizard got the ability to create magical devices galore at level 9 >galore Give me a break. This isn't 3.5 For each magic item created, the Wizard needs that item's experience value in materials, which can only be acquired through adventuring.
>>45029116 >"I can defeat one guy provided I have a dozen guys backing me up" Try 130 at the maximum, plus an elite commander follower which is only a few levels lower than the Fighter. That's not counting any hirelings or henchmen he might have.
>>45029144 >The spells specifically tailored to facing a fighter alone.
More single combat in general. Invisibility and Stoneskin are just generally useful spells. The other Illusion spells (not even being used) are useful in a wide variety of situations. Charm/Suggestion/Dominate are utterly invaluable as well provided you do not expect to face nonhumanoids. Perhaps this is a urban wizard, a court magician, who has settled down from his adventuring days. Jafar from Aladdin.
You want I should randomly determine the wizard's spells known instead?
By the by, the Fighter only gets aforementioned army if he has a stronghold, castle, or other base of operations, which is NOT a class feature. We can assume that the Fighter has one, if you like, but if so then the Mage is allowed to start selecting equipment as well.
>>45029186 At 500,000 XP the Mage has been level 11 for 125,000 XP, granting the mage that much leeway to expend XP and maintain his current level. If nothing else that's enough for a number of spell scrolls and/or wands.
Again, if you want to start equipping the fighter beyond weapons and armor, then the Mage is going to be allowed to start equipping himself beyond his spellbook and component pouch.
The Fighter gets 10-40 troops, 10-30 elite units, and a 5th-7th level leader AS a class feature, see the PHB. (Attracting more requires the castle or stronghold.) It's hardly just "a dozen guys," it runs from 21 to 71 men, with the leader being nearly as dangerous as the Fighter himself. And it was the wizardfag who started bringing in the mage's summons and magical item creation and stuff because the initial 1v1 wasn't looking good.
I've never played, but a friend wants me to join. I have one question regarding this however.
THAC0 works like this, right? A character has (for example) THAC0 20. A target has AC 9. So you subtract AC from THAC0 to get the minimum number you need to roll to hit (in the example's case, 11) right?
Meaning if your THAC0 is 14 and your opponent has -2 AC, you'd have to roll 16+ because 14-(-2)?
>>45029349 No, you've got it all wrong. You're character has a Thaco of 20, so you need to roll a 20 to hit, but you add the enemies armor class, so if whatever you roll plus 9 is =>20, you hit. Understand?
>>45024130 >Ugh I can't believe you're taking away my options >Infinite customization is what really makes this game >I should be able to have as specific an alignment as I want to and it shouldn't actually restrict my behavior in any manner >and all races are really just the same inside so you shouldn't be able to tell people what they can and can't do you fantasy nazi
God Damn the Boomers and their fucking free everything ideology. Balanced restrictions are what make a game fun. What's the point of being an alignment if it has no effect on your character or is so specific that it basically separates them into an alignment of their own.
>>45029345 Pg. 37 of my AD&D PHB: >"When a fighter attains 9th level (becomes a "lord"), he can automatically attract men-at-arms. [...] To attract the men, the fighter must have a castle or stronghold and sizeable manor lands around it."
The Fighter *can* attract men, but he needs the stronghold first. You wanna give the Fighter the stronghold? Fine. But the Mage gets to start equipping himself too.
I never brought up Summons, except in the sense of Summon Swarm being on the Illusionists' spells known, but the spell didn't even come up (it really does come down to the various Enchantment spells). I brought up magic item creation only in response to someone else bringing up the men-at-arms. Both are class features gained at 9th level, and it's the Fighterfags who tried to make the game not 1v1 to start with.
Quid pro quo. If the Fighter gets his stronghold and men-at-arms, then the Mage gets his magic item creation and whatever other magic items he has that roughly approximate the value of the stronghold. If the Fighter is going to get more than his basic arms and armor going in, then so too should the Mage.
Unless your argument has now become "A 500K XP Fighter can totally beat a 500K XP Mage, provided the Mage has the bare minimum of spells known, only his spellbook and component pouch, and no other items; whereas I have a hundred-plus guys and a stronghold backing me up, because that's part of my class description, that I get an army, but no, the Wizard is not going to be allowed to have his own crafted magic items, even though that's part of his class description."
>>45029470 No, I'm just demonstrating the backwards process that is Thaco, because someone, somewhere thought THAT whole process was less arcane than "Armor Class is the number you need to roll to hit. Add your Accuracy bonus to your roll, or subtract it from the target-AC to get your to-hit number".
>>45029506 > "Armor Class is the number you need to roll to hit. Add your Accuracy bonus to your roll, or subtract it from the target-AC to get your to-hit number". No, you roll the die and then you subtract the opponent's AC. If the result is equal to or greater than your Accuracy, you hit.
Your proposal about THAC0-based calculation seems to apply here, too.
THAC0 has two flaws: 1. It requires an extra step. Player rolls, has to wait for the DM to apply AC, then say what the number is, then the player checks their THAC0 to see if hits. Compare: Player rolls 16+3. "Does it hit?" Less waiting involved. Could just be seconds, but that's seconds saved on every roll. And that's assuming everyone has every relevant stat block memorized.
2. It informs the players of a monster's AC, because the DM has to essentially tell the player the modifier so the player can check their THAC0. I have yet to meet a DM that wants to give out monster stats directly. The player can guess at the monster's AC if a 19 hits, but they don't know the exact minimum roll required.
>>45029629 >he doesn't keep track of his players' most relevant combat values
Regardless of whether you use AC as TN or THAC0, your players should be able to just tell you what they rolled and have you be able to do the elementary school math pretty much instantly. No need to tell them the enemy's AC either way, and they'll be able to get a rough feel for their chance to hit through natural means (ex: "I hit these goblins on a 16, so I know I have at least a 25% chance to hit" stuff).
Each point keeps being better and better until you go from making enemies only hit you on 19-20, to them hitting you on a 20; a doubling.
In theory, if a 20 wasn't a guaranteed hit, another point of AC would be worth infinity.
Now tell me, do you think powergaming AC bonuses are worth more in a system with low stat bloat where it's nearly impossible to "get ahead" of enemies by some large number, or in one with high stat bloat where it's easy?
>>45029496 It's funny how the fighter needs to be up close to even have a theoretical chance at taking down the wizard. If they started in situation "you're somewhere in the same country", the fighter would be so out of luck. He would have only mundane means of tracking down the wizard at his disposal, while the wizard would also have magical abilities on top of those which to mess with the fighter. Magic just achieves everything better and easier, that's why it's called magic in the first place.
>>45030604 > that's why it's called magic in the first place. This makes no sense, you realize? Magic is not a compound word. It doesn't obviously and immediately mean anything that you can refer to with that statement.
"That's why it's called Apple Pie" works. "That's why it's called Smafgromble" does not work.
>complaining about spellcasters vs. martials Holy shit you fucking retards, if you want something to actually complain about complain about the fucking multiclass rules that massively favor having them in a party over anything else.
>>45030929 Well not really. They gain levels slower, making them gain spells at a much reduced pace - and spells are pretty much the only signifigant class feature (unlike in 3.5 onwards where they're plentiful)
>>45031217 Especially in 2e, anon. Haven't you played it? There are few class powers and you mostly start with those already, no stat gains, no feats. Spells are just about the only thing that brings new tricks on the table.
>>45031533 >I always thought elves can't be druids because they don't die of old age which means they are outside of the cycle of life that druids revere.
That's... really stupid logic. MOST things in nature don't ever reach the point of dying of old age, they die of getting fucking killed and eaten, or to disease, or to a random whoops-I'm-fucked injury, or a million other things, which elves do just fine.
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