>What is Android: Netrunner?
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Try "Why I run", great for prospective Runners looking for a hands-on demo on how Running works (replace the spaces by dots):
www nagnazul com/whyirun/whyirun.html
So, Jesminder Sareen. The cards that work explicitly off her ability are Maya, Account Siphon, Code Siphon and Vamp. This tells me that she can be built as a HQ pressure-intensive Runner while being able to threaten R&D by virtue of being a Shaper. Can we jam in 3 Account Siphons and 3 Same Old Things faster than you can say 'Stimhack'?
How do those Siphon spam anarchs do it again?
They use Deja vu and Trope instead/as well, right?
She doesn't work with pic related, right?
It's mostly the influence I'm concerned about. I'd even consider some kind of Femme London Library thing, since you save on the click of clearing one tag from Siphon. So you go click one Femme, click two Siphon, click three clear tag, click four bounce Femme
See, now we're just getting into context dependency. Art can be good without being fun because being fun isn't the point of art. Saturn Devouring His Son isn't a fun painting, but it's good because it adeptly evokes the intended viewer response.
While the act of game design is more art than science, and while the end product, a game, can certainly be appreciated on an aesthetic level, the primary purpose of a game is to provide a user-experience based on interaction with the game rules and the other players. This experience is meant to be enjoyable, and qualifies as fun. A good game is one that adeptly provides this experience.
And adeptly is the important part; a badly realized game can still ineptly provide fun, the same way people can enjoy playing, for example, 3.5. The experience of playing with friends can still be fun, and by the metrics of enjoying a game, therefore a good experience, but the game itself is not good because the interactions with the rules are flawed for whatever reason, and do not work as intended.
You can trash anything in a server when installing something in it. For instance, trashing an ambush to install an agenda in your scoring server.
Likewise, You can also trash any number of ICE protecting the server when installing a new piece of ICE.
You can't just say "fuck it, all gone" except for specific cases that anon mentioned.
Let's fill all the possible design space.
Anarchs got Prevent Damage and Trash the top of R&D effects
Criminals got Reordering their stack, look the top card of R&D, and Draw 1 card, gain X credits.
If we still had spoilers from snow-jax and spoiler-ken this could be a good opportunity to turn it into a game.
We know for sure that the only unspoiled shaper cards left are #24, #45, and #81, according to Four is Flatline. We also know that Sadyojata is the only Deva program spoiled.
I'm just guessing here, but we might see others Deva programs in the other factions, instead of Shaper.
Imagine if they had an AI breaker that took tags in order to break all subs on one ice. Something like base 4 str, no way to increase, but take one/two tags to break all subs on this ice. Or bypass, if it's a Crim card.
And btw, these are the 5 devas:
Sadyojāta - Creation. West. Earth. Pṛthvī.
Vāmadeva - Preservation. North. Water. Jala.
Aghora -Dissolution/Rejuvenation. South. Fire. Agni
Tatpuruṣa - Concealing Grace. East. Vāyu. Air.
Īśāna - Revealing Grace. North-east. Ether (Ākāśa).
Well, we got an AI breaker this cycle, I hope there's not another one coming.
I find that Brahman will be really strong with token based programs, like Lady and D4v1d.
Given how Anarch's and Vrim's tend to blur the factions color pie:
Trash effect with a discount by number of the consumer-grade cards installed?
Heap recursion effect for a program whose value is inferior to the number of the consumer-grade cards installed? (would fit Exile so well both fluff and effect it would be a crime if we didn't have a variation on that front)
HQ run with one card exposed for each copy of the card shown from grip after access?
>they hardly do any external playtesting andmore
Are you retarded? WNP was unique during playtesting.
Right before the Universe of Tomorrow went off to print, some dumbass removed it. The change was literally right before printing.
I think I might be the first real Pro Netrunner player. I just quit my job since I found I can live off what my Blog, Stream, and Youtube bring in. I only post Netrunenr content so I am 100% a Professional Netrunner player.
From a purely professional standpoint, clear sign of a yet immature professional scene when you can't really differentiate from "professional" players and other side employs like specialized journalism.
Which I don't mind, I think turning pro is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a game.
Anyway, good for you if true. Enjoy it for all its worth.
Lukas HATES non-FA Corp designs. He thinks Corps need to be 100% combo to be interesting. You can tell that from his design style and interviews.
The game will be much better under Damon "I wish I was dancing" Stone.
Effect on the game, too early to say. Tentatively hopeful myself, but I have a feeling this will change very little in the end for competitive players. Granted, very little is probably what they want/can tolerate.
Effect on the community: started a bit earlier the fracturing we were expecting post D&D between those that will still upgrade card pool and those that won't.
A lot - if not most - of the casual players don't want to bother with the list, and we decided not to enforce it at the club level. The competitive players are in full test mode, a lot of them don't want to play against non-complying decks to maintain quality of gathered data, and so we have a small splitting of the community right now. Might be temporary, but then card pool matters are going to set in.
I don't play online, but anecdotally I hear people are faced with a similar experience there.
That's only as true as he's a good designer.
Not that I believe the statement as given. If he loved straight combos so much we'd be seeing more of them I think.
>Not that I believe the statement as given. If he loved straight combos so much we'd be seeing more of them I think.
Weyland did have a combo, tag & bag
The problem is that Lukas never gave anything to Weyland in-faction to achieve that, minus the completely useless Posted Bounty.
I didn't say there was no combo, I said I would have expected to see more of them.
>minus the completely useless Posted Bounty.
Posted Bounty is pretty good in the right build. Wins you games on way or the other.
And against an opponent without the means to survive the tag/scorchs, you basically force the runner's hand into every IAA server. Ambush galore.
With Faust being what it is right now, and the lack of plascretes and expose, I've never had as many kills. Whether Junebugs or Scorch.
Just took my Store Championship undefeated on Corp side.
Harmony Medtech: Biomedical Pioneer
2x The Future Perfect
3x Vanity Project •••
3x Jackson Howard •••
2x Plan B
2x Project Junebug
2x Toshiyuki Sakai
3x An Offer You Can't Refuse
3x Back Channels •••
3x Hedge Fund
3x Mushin No Shin
Code Gate (4)
2x Lotus Field
1x Flare •••
No flatlines but a ton of turn 4~ wins.
I wouldn't play it myself, but I like the look of this (surprised by no Punitives - I guess the potential of the threat is enough?).
What's the plan with An Offer You Can't Refuse though?
Seems like I'm missing something here.
It's amusing because, people had grown so unaccustomed to Posted Bounty I literally won games turn 3-4 with a single scorch.
And once they got reacquainted with it, then the real fun began.
Granted, if people grow wary, the silver bullets will rain down again. But it's been a fun ride.
Hell, I've had a PB naked on the table for several turns with Casting Call and Dedicated Response Teams. Watching the low econ runners sweat is really fun.
Ok, so solely for the Ronins.
Ballsy deck. Toshiyuki AND plan B makes me smile. The kind of decks I'd love to play against and just wouldn't have built the same way even going for the same basic strat. And that's part of the fun, isn't it ?
Congrats by the way.
>Hell, I've had a PB naked on the table for several turns with Casting Call and Dedicated Response Teams. Watching the low econ runners sweat is really fun.
Does Casting Call trigger before DRT? I've never tried that before
Casting Call triggers on access (meaning it can trigger more than once for the same agenda - say if protected by an Old Hollywood Grid), DRT once the run is over. So yes, it triggers before.
Toshiyuki is the KEY card of the deck and likely what make Jinteki ambush work in the current card pool. It is in my top 10 cards in the game.
Since they always access after Toshiyuki triggers I can plan my attack around the current board state. If they are low on credits and clicks I toss out Ronin to it is primed and ready to go. If they will dine to Junebug I toss out that and kill them. I love sitting with my hand primed for attack and a 4-6 advanced Toshiyuki on the field. If they don't go in for him I pop Back Channels and have a huge load of money to play with.
Apex's icebreaker is totally not worth the 4 MU it takes to slot the motherfucker.
I cobbled together a deck last night and had more luck with the Influenced Anarch icebreakers than Endless Hunger.
Or am I just missing something?
Granted I ended up winning at the very end of my Stack because I burnt up all my face downs to eat the ice protecting home boys HQ, still wasn't worth it
If it was not for her restriction on resources he'd be amazing. Think of having Stimdealers that just make you trash a installed card each 3 turns.
If you can figure out a way to leverage his more or less immunity to damage you might be able to make a workable deck.
>We need to think BIGGER!
MFW I play 2 Dedication Ceremonys and a Commercialization on a Ice Wall.
No good Runner deck will ever run it tho. Like all three ID's need at least 5+ more cards of support to make them playable.
Lukas really fucking lost this nut later in his work. The dude just started printing random shit and was all like "LET THE PLAYERS SORT IT OUT!" and shitz man.
It's fucking great to play. A breath of fresh air really. A mix of Anarch destructiveness and Criminal dancing around the targets and sniping.
It might not be "zomigodfuckyouiwin" ID, but it's like say, Nasir where even if it never reach tier1 (to speak like the barbarians) it's playable - you can win decently well - and its plays like nothing else, so it breaks the monotony.
If an ID is under 55% win rate it is trash and was a waste to design.
If a card has no place in a deck with a 55%+ win rate it is trash and was a waste to design.
Netrunner has the same problem MTG has. There are many cards that are just better then the rest and putting more of those cards in your deck just make you win more.
Port Anson is one of those cards I keep going back to. Just love the idea of putting the runner in a situation where he *has* to jack out.
One problem is, as we've discussed previously, there's a clear lack of ICE fear right now, and if not ICE what do we have to force the jack out ?
They just keep printing AI's that just brush over the ICE issue or one shot breakers that are way too powerful.
I am working on a blog post called "The Myth of Early Game" about this subject.
Yeah, I do think the AI prevalence became an issue. And the silver bullets just aren't a satisfying solution (though had they made Underway Grid "ICE in this server cannot be broken by AI", that thing would probably be played a LOT more).
I've been seeing success with Underway Grid due to Kate/Sunny/Hayley Nexus out of Weyland.
Still doesn't guarantee a win though because Weyland has no good internal FA. I have to waste influence on Trick of Light, which sucks.
>Fuck, how did I not think of that
Weyland trap is my favorite archetype, but it means I have shitty ice due to Mushin/Junebug/etc.
Praise be to Yevon that Underway Grid is Neutral
Turing Police, you know, an agency that monitors/regulates AI? True AI (if it exists in the setting) are serialised and recorded in the Turing Registry. Any violations and they'll storm down with killswitches. Basically, they're the Stasi for AI.
So, a card that prohibits AI usage unless they pay more? Or just flat out prevents AI usage.
Ok, so having seen the Black File coming up and wanted to build the shit out of a deck using Apex with it, I'm curious: Just how many ways are there to get the card out of the heap and back into play?
It removes it's self from the game at 3 tokens. You'd need to first have a way to trash it from play (being apex that is not that hard).
As far as I know for returning it you have Daja Vu and Lev Lab.
You're an anon after mine own heart
Yea, that's why Apex is for. He trivially removes it from the board, it's just getting it back up there that's the issue.
I figure the deck tempo is to build towards having it in the late game, letting the corp build an advantage in return for setting up. Then drop it and put a lot of pressure on them while they can't kill you.
List them anyways, it's not exactly a top tier deck strat anyways, and some extra ideas for how to make it work could end up with a technique that's passable.
>the Turing Registry
A card with that sort of effect would be cool, but themed around that sort of agency wouldn't make that much sense, what with HB and the amount of semi-free AI about (even outside of breakers, with things like The Helpful AI.
Personally I think a grey/black op that trashes an AI would be cool, themed around hunter-killer AI that's basically nasty ICE like Ichi, Swordsman or Assassin, but freed from the tether of a server to go out and actively seek AI to trash
Let's sum things up:
- The sole point of playing the card is preventing the corp from winning when it's past match point.
- You can only have one copy of it in you deck.
- As soon as it hits your heap in case of self-trash , you've lost.
Only thing I can think off right now is praying the corp is at 7 points exactly, play a Political Graffiti (or two or three if you'(re really unlucky), play Populist rally to prevent purge, self trash and then recur The Black File and install it again.
A very lucky Turntable swap might do the trick more advantageously.
You guys are going to love this upcoming cards then.
Weyland - 4 Inf
Asset - Government
As an additional cost to rez Regulations Committee forfeit an agenda.
Abilities on AI Programs can't be used.
>Jinteki - Ice - Code Gate AP
If there is no installed Decoder, Double speak has +4 strength
>Do 2 net damage
>Choose two cards in the runner heap, the runner removes one from the game
Does anyone with some more experience playing Geist have some suggestions for better econ cards to use in a low liquidity deck? ive been working on a B&E Geist list for a GNK next weekend and in testing ive noticed that sometimes bank job is quite awkward to try and actually use, especially against decks that dont leave un-iced remotes because of the limited accesses you can get with the B&E suite so sometimes it's not worth it. also the deck is fairly low liquidity so im considering switching some sure gambles with easy marks, because there have been a few times where ive had to click up to 5 to sure gamble and jump start my econ again.
ive played around a bit with underworld contacts and im not convinced the consistent credits are worth the sacrifice in speed. ive also thought about adding back in fall guys just to use sometimes purely as a tempo card, but again not really convinced it's worth a card slot.
another thought ive had is maybe swapping security testing for tri maf contacts, again because of the nature of the b&e suite, if there arent any unprotected servers sec testing quickly becomes a dead card, and because the deck stays at a high hand size and avoids tags like the plague, i dont think the downside of tri maf will ever matter so it might be a more consistent choice than sec testing.
any advice is appreciated
In the gear checks category, ICE that has an effect if you get past it without the proper gear check. I'd go Weyland because of the needed ETR aspect of the suite, but that's just me.
Hurst both bypass and AI. Would need some balancing, but I think it could be fair.
If the runner passes X1 without a fracter installed, you may gain 3 credits.
Code Gate X-type
If the runner passes X2 without a decoder installed, the runner must pay three if able.
If runner passes X3 without a killer installed, the runner must trash one of his or her installed cards.
Fall Guy, Wasteland, Technical Writer.
Technical Writer is a godsend with the B&E Suite.
In my current Geist deck, only three cards cost more than 2 credits to install.
Deck is as follows.
Armand "Geist" Walker: Tech Lord
2x Inside Job
2x Levy AR Lab Access ••••• •
3x Security Chip •••
3x Access to Globalsec
3x Fall Guy
2x Muertos Gang Member
2x Same Old Thing
3x Technical Writer
3x Underworld Contact
3x Wasteland ••••• •
Tri-Maf could be a good idea, though it won't really get you up in credits quickly. I assume you already have fall guys cause its Geist, but other than that you could consider Armitage, Tech Writer, and Exclusive Party when it comes out. Tech Writer is build dependent, though B&E sounds like it should work. Much beyond that, I'd have to see your deck. Working on low liquidities is very build dependent. The only other thing that does that in criminal I can think of is Public Terminal, which is really just for poorish Tenma builds.
If you take out one of security testing and bank job, make it security testing for sure. The above options don't really burst well.
Technical writer is definitely something I need to try, with the amount of B&E programs that are installed I think it could stack a ton of credits, i already run autoscripter and over the course of a game it usually gives me over a dozen free clicks at least, then i levy and play all the B&E again so technical writers could be really sweet for some additional return on investment just for installing cloud breakers
i will have to give a more resource heavy list a try, it seems like your deck would have a very very stable economy
additionally, wasteland seems really interesting and ill definitely have to give that a try. how have you found security chip though? i have been in very few situations where the cloud breakers arent strong enough so i wasnt sure it would be necessary
im interested to hear your reasoning behind not running siphon as well. personally I have found that one of the biggest strengths of B&E Geist is that you can threaten very early siphons even when you have almost no money because of how cheap the cloud breakers are and how quickly you get a lot of them installed.
yeah im thinking tri-maf will be nice, definitely going to add it in and try it. it hasnt been an issue of getting up in credits quickly, when i do have windows to land siphons or bank jobs the deck can burst econ decently well but theres no sustaining it at all outside of sec testing, but i think tri maf could do it's job a bit better.
If you're going to be siphoning and want to keep tri-maf, be sure to take crash space as your meat damage solution. Its one cheaper than plascrete, lets you clear tags for cheap and is just as good for protecting you from scorch in Geist. And while it can't weather a midseasons as well, you can frustrate NBN with free clearing for a long time.
Security Chip serves three purposes. One, it's a 0 cost piece of hardware, which means credits onto Technical Writer. Two, it's a card with a trash ability, which means it triggers Wasteland and gives me a card draw. And finally, three, it's a quick boost to either all my cloud breakers(meaning I don't have to install as many to be able to get past bigger ice) or one of my central breakers, which saves me money that I might need.
As for not running Siphon, it's mainly personal preference. I don't really like having spend clicks to clear the tags after making a siphon run, but with the amount of resources I run, I can't afford to keep them. I feel like it just slows me down too much.
fair enough, with technical writer and wasteland as support i can definitely see security chip being a lot more valuable, i just havent tried either of those cards in my deck so security chip seemed a bit lackluster without that support. after a bit i changed the security chip slot to street peddler, in my list i found it served a similar purpose at 1 inf but was better at helping to accelerate the deck. installing additional cloud breakers that you need off of peddler for free has been very helpful. but i will have to try adding technical writer and wasteland, very solid cards to go with B&E for more constant credits.
You know what I want? I want a set of three ice:
1) A barrier with the text "Subroutines on this piece of ice cannot be broken except by using fracters"
2) A code gate with the text "Subroutines on this piece of ice cannot be broken except by using decoders"
3) A sentry with the text "Subroutines on this piece of ice cannot be broken except by killers"
For good measure, I think they should also have Architect's text - "cannot be trashed while installed". Because simple ice trashing is dumb and run amok should not be a card.
You know what I want?
I want an untyped ICE that says "AI programs can't be used to break subs on this ICE
With an "End the Run Unless the Runner plays 6 Clicks."
Should cost 0 to rez. Strength should be 15, but with a special rule that says "For any other purpose except when bringing a breaker's strength to be equal to this ICE, this ICE's strength is considered 4"
You should be allowed to run 8 copies of it as well.
You're so mad about d4v1d and Faust, like, SO MAD. It's hilarious.
I don't like this solution because it also hoses Chameleon, and several Shaper tactics like Tinkering, Paintbrush, and Kit. Which are already pretty beat down.
People are ignoring the bigger problem that has made AI's so powerful. The fact that David has made big ICE disappear from the meta.
AI's are amazing in a meta with a bunch of tiny cheap to break ICE but are awful for big ICE. The problem is people are so tired of David breaking their huge investment for free that almost no one runs big ICE anymore. Making it a paradise for AIs and Parasites.
Figure out how to beat the David and the AI problem deal with it's self.
D4V1D by itself isn't an unmanageable issue. You can bait runs and empty it.
D4V1D + (mid-run) cheap and omnipresent recursion + (mid-run) tutor and install is another issue.
I don't know who mentioned the issue of the meta moving to ICE seen as nothing but a gear check solution, but that's exactly part of it. Expecting ICE not to fire. Expecting ICE not to tax. Playing them like they don't, then complaining that they don't.
But anon, people never played big ICE anyway, Hadrian Wall and Curtain Wall were all flukes floating around in the marginal space Weyland decks. Their presence was enhanced by Blue Sun being able to recover from the cash dump. But before D4v1d the meta was so heavily FA and Siphon that Glacier was too slow and big ICE impossible to rez. Not to mention, why even bother with any Heimdall in HB when FA was a so much better way to spend the money.
Don't try to pin this on D4v1d, because D4v1d fixed the anarch problem of not being able to break big ICE without copious amounts of datasucker tokens.
I am talking more things like Tollbooth, Janus, Archer, Ichi, etc.
Things right around that 5 str spot that are fairly taxing for the runner to deal with. David just removed them from the meta.
It also counters anti-AI cards like Wraparound.
Tollbooth is still played, if only for the 3 cred tax.It had a tougher time in the beginning of the game when Femme was widely used to counter it and survived that.
Big ICE is always - unless new cards change the game drastically I guess - going to be a fringe part of your deck. No corp can survive on a diet of big ICE only.
If I check the Worlds 2015 decks list, I see Susanoo, I see Ichii 2.0, Heimdall 2.0, a whole lot of Assassins, Tollbooths... They're being played, and I would say in proportions that do not really shock me.
>I am talking more things like Tollbooth, Janus, Archer, Ichi, etc.
Me too, that's why I mention the datasucker problem.
Anarchs needed either a whole suite of new breakers able to deal with all the different ICE, or a single program that helped the fixed breaker core suite.
They opted for a spendable program with a rather limited usage and huge influence costs. I'm ok with that. That leaves us more options for interesting design space to explore in the anarch color pie.
As a side note, I think if D4v1d wasn't a thing, the cutlery/Eater combination would have a bigger impact in the game.
If anything, I would expect D4V1D to make big ICE played *more* , not less. That way you can empty it faster (anyone that has played a lot with Space ICE will understand).
But with ICE being used as gear-check only and ambushes (or other ways to bait runs) being seen as "sub-optimal", that's not going to happen.
I'd not mind if the cutlery or immolation was the main way to trash ICE really. Then at least some work has to be put into it. Datasucker and Parasite are shit design IMO.
The Core set plus Creation & Control are what are making the biggest issues for the card pool IMO and both of those will be legal forever. That is why I think without a ban list (MWL helps but is too soft handed IMO) the game will never change.
That was my first post in this thread, so you don't really have any grounds for that first statement. But yes, I don't like D4V1D except as a solution to oversighted curtain walls in blue sun, and I don't like AI breakers in general.
Good point about Chameleon and the other shaper tricks, though. Not sure how to handle that...
>Same Old Thing
So many central cards to Runner playstyle that if they did rotate out they'd need to more or less be reprinted.
I get C&C is an issue since it was poorly designed on a balance level but I don't think we can just rotate it without pulling a GOT and making a 2.0 release.
Well you see we just need assets that prevent cards from leaving the heap! That will be played a bunch I am sure.
Oh also something that prevents cards from being installed during a run. Maybe something to block AIs too.
I mean really since Corps have so much deck space to play with running a bunch of silver bullets to cover the design flaws of the game is not really a problem at all.
>Datasucker and Parasite are shit design IMO.
You mean for a meta definitely set on using gearchecks over big ICE. Yeah, it sucks that all your ICE can be destroyed with a few tokens.
Datasuckers fueling parasites to trash ICE is really clever because datasucker needs successful runs on central servers to produce these. Which means the runner need to pass ICE that otherwise he can't break if the Corp is using big ICE.
Which means that he needed Wyrm back in the core set to ensure he were able to get in at least once, but nobody played it because "it's expensive".
Then they made D4v1d. Which fixes practically the same problem, but it's cheap.
Sorry, I made the assumption based on the post itself, it's like screaming "FUCK DAVID, FUCK KIT, FUCK QUETZAL, FUCK AI, WHY CAN'T YOU TUTOR YOUR NORMAL BREAKERS". It was hilarious. No ill intentions.
I agree with the guy on account of Jackson.
The game needs a different rule for mulligan, something like
>You're allowed a single secret mulligan. Meaning that you can mulligan without showing your hand.
>If you get at least 2 agendas in your initial hand you're able to mulligan by showing those 2 agendas to the Runner.
Being fucked over later on by agenda flood is fine, but a first turn agenda flood is just way too painful.
ANR is filled with design flaws. It also does not have the timed fix that normal CCGs have with cards rotating out.
Silver Bullet design poisons the game at it's core. The way Corp cards are designed leaves them with very limited space to work with. Runner cards are overall more powerful then their Corp counter parts leaving Corps constantly scrambling to find an edge.
Any time a Corp interacts with a Runner they are mostly likely going to lose out on the exchange. ICE cost more to rez then they do to break, assets are cheap and easy to remove, Agendas are too hard to score and effect the game too little when scored.
Early game is not even a thing anymore since Runners can run wild turn 2 in any good deck and Corps have almost no replies to it.
The only two "good" Corp archetypes focus on scoring Agendas out of hand to avoid the badly designed remote scoring idea or instantly killing the runner with burst damage. Both focusing on just letting the runner run wild mostly and hoping they don't get too lucky. Why do 3-1 Agendas (that limit deck space even more) so much stronger then 5-3 agendas that are much harder to score?
Agendas need to feel powerful and game changing after they are scored. You put so much work into scoring a 5-3 and it does not feel like you are really rewarded for it. Corp playing constantly feels like you are just being hammered by an all powerful runner that is one moment of luck away from winning the game at all times. Even store remote play decks focus entirely on things like Caprice that turn runs into a dice roll.
I love Netrunner but it does have some major issues that need to be sorted out.
>ICE cost more to rez than they do to break
Which is (was?) very fair under the double assumption that they would fire once ina while and that they need to be broken each time the runner goes through. So in the long run the ICE does cost the runner more than the corp.
That is, before ICE trashing and de-rezzing became so prevalent as to make the ICE taxation idea unpalatable.
>Why do 3-1 Agendas (that limit deck space even more) so much stronger then 5-3 agendas that are much harder to score?
You've answered your own question: because they limit deck space even more. They're the worst investment to score/agenda point ratio, they limit deck space, they need to be the most powerful to feel like being included.
I have not seen anything more then a ETR fire in my last 20ish games.
Anything stronger is broken or trashed the moment the runner can interact with it.
That is even I even get to rez ICE with things like DDOS and Blackmail.
If I see another DDOS into Account Siphon turn 1 I am going to sell my cards.
>The only two "good" Corp archetypes focus on scoring Agendas out of hand to avoid the badly designed remote scoring idea or instantly killing the runner with burst damage.
Again, checking the worlds 2015 deck-lists, way too many glacier decks at the top for me to agree. Seems to me like you're still operating under assumptions that were true but haven't been in a while.
Unless the MWL has changed things that much and I haven't noticed yet.
Did I mention "more than once"?
I said would fire. Which rarely happens nowadays - I tend to think so rarely as to make it seem worthless; unless, say an Architect which can make you win the game right there, which might be just as bad coming from the other side.
Oh, ok, I think I get it "once in a while" referred to the ICE taken as a whole not individual pieces of ICE. Was that the source of the misunderstanding?
All the glacier decks from 2015 focused FA as a back up and stuff like Caprice for scoring. Also they resulted as a counter balance to the Val decks that designed around the idea of not running and just milling for the win. Allowing them the chance to score in remotes when facing runner decks that did not have the normal run ability.
You can't look at one side of the meta and say something is good. You have to see WHY something won in place of just the fact that it won.
Runners feel like some kind of Green Ramp plus Blue Control hybrid monster that just controls the tempo of the game while Corps seem to just be a kind of Red White mix that is just trying to get blockers our while it looks for it's kill spells.
Runners get board control faster and stronger then Corps can ever hope for, the only time they lose board control is when they make a mistake or they get RNG screwed
>You can't look at one side of the meta and say something is good. You have to see WHY something won in place of just the fact that it won.
The why of it doesn't matter though - of course in a competition the decks on display are going to be dependent on the ones the think they'll face. Holds even more true given the asymmetric set up here. Hell, whether it won or lost hardly matters. It's the representation that does.
>Val decks that designed around the idea of not running and just milling for the win.
People playing those decks still needed to run. The decks were designed to be the least interactive a DLR deck can get, but DLR still remains one of the most interactive card of the game, and they couldn't go past that.
I'm of the opinion that Tags should either allow the Corp to do something on the Runners turn, or that Tags should be much harder to remove.
Runners should not have cards that Tag them when they can easily remove the Tags without any drawback.
Only it is really not when all you need to do is Blackmail or DDOS into a server and install DLR with your Wireless Net + Fall Guy protection combos.
The reason those decks won games at all was their base protection from bypassing ICE with things like Caprice and Ash as protection upgrades. Even then most of them had okish win rates at most and got carried by their Runner decks.
I played at Worlds, it was a entirely Runner focused event with very few Corp wins over all.
They need to run to ensure the corp remains poor enough not to score win before they are set up. Or even, rich enough to blow the set up in spite of all.
They needed to run for the set up itself, if only once on Archives.
Hell, look at Dan's final win: mostly a matter of early RNG pick up of that 3 pointer, the DLR was instrumental, but not the main cause of the victory.
And frankly, please, don't make me defend those decks they're ugly the way only competitive people can turn a deck ugly.
I think tags should be easier to give out - it's ever-easier to avoid tags and remove tags, but giving them remains pretty difficult, especially outside NBN, making resources much stronger than they might otherwise be.
Of course that has the risk of tag-n-bag being too strong, or completely worthless if too many cards are introduced specifically to prevent it becoming so, but I think things like hand size and IHW/Sports Hopper show that you can make TnB weaker without killing it
That's why out of activation interaction would be nice.
Allowing a Corp to immediately trash an asset when a Runner takes a tag on their turn, for example, specifically avoids TnB getting any stronger, but hugely impacts Runner tempo.
The way you're speaking, it seems like tag removal wasn't a huge tempo killer in itself.
Two credits and a click per tag removed is not inconsequential. The runner being forced to slot tag removal/protection isn't inconsequential.
I mean, I agree with the the overall sentiment of wanting the designers to do more with tags, but I think you're selling what we have right now short.
Except it's usually a minor inconvenience at best for the runner. Cards that add tags to the runner, like Siphon, hit the Corp insanely hard, and the card's drawback is just so small for the Runner. Same with pretty much any other card runner side that adds tags, the tag itself is almost always just inconsequential to the Runner in the larger scheme of the game.
>Except it's usually a minor inconvenience at best for the runner.
Can't say I agree. It has a definitive effect on turn structure which isn't' meaningless if you can capitalize on it. And they add up other a game.
>Cards that add tags to the runner, like Siphon, hit the Corp insanely hard, and the card's drawback is just so small for the Runner.
Apart from possible death, losing all you money, resource destruction (I still laugh at competitive players whining about being "forced to play a shit card" because they "had to" slot Freelancer during the Val DLR binge). Losing half your turn. I mean, unless the runner goes tag me, or prevention cards , a Siphon means the runner has to spend 3 clicks in one turn for that sole action, in order to remove tags.
That's good, that means the runner either has to take risks - live with the tags, or invest in support cards. The window opened to abuse the corp poverty is shortened.
>Same with pretty much any other card runner side that adds tags, the tag itself is almost always just inconsequential to the Runner in the larger scheme of the game.
I would say of course they hit weaker, it's under the runner's control how and when they're going to fire. It's the corp's job to throw a wrench in that plan.
All that said, I mean, I like Keegan Lane. I don't know that I want him to be the new standard for tag effects. The paid ability windows are already a plight enough on the game.
I don't think corps getting an out-of-sequence interaction with tags would be very good at all (though there is one, but it's hard to make work), I just think they should be more universal - HB and Jinteki have exactly 2 ways each to give tags, and nothing outside of the normal pay-to-trash to punish it.
I don't know if it's just because resources are so huge right now, but I just feel they could be a bigger part of the game than they are
SIR! YES, SIR!
How much tagging ice would you have to include for this to actually work in Weyland?
Not like the ice-based alternative is much better though
That's kind of the issue with the strict color pie attribution.
Almost all brain damage is HB.
Almost all net damage is Jinteki.
Almost all tagging is NBN.
Almost all meat damage is Weyland.
Trouble is, of course, it cost less to it costs less to make an efficient NBN tagging game that imports meat damage than to make an efficient Weyland meat damage deck than imports tagging. An issue magnified by the counter to both - tags being bite-sized and diverse in their potential source and effects can matter despite the counters over the game. Meat damage is basically shut off by a single card.
Hah, try making a "darkest dungeon diorama" with netrunner characters, and a huge hadrian wall or heimdall as enemy.
Damn, if only I could draw.
I know it's just me being silly, but I installed that game, delved in the options for a minute, saw the “Enable Anonymous Data Collection” option turned on by default, and it just killed any desire I had to play it.
That was your needless random blog post of the day.
I have a feeling Eli 2.0 will be a long time coming, and will make the community explode whether by living up to the expectations or not doing so remains to be seen.
Looking at the current 1.0 crop, what do you think would benefit from an upgrade.
Zed more than probably. Sherlock Maybe?
Hudson seems fine as it is. Janus 2.0 looks like a terrifying prospect.
The runner may spend 2 clicks to break 2 subroutines on Janus 2.0
->The corp player adds an agenda from HQ, R&D, Archives, or installed in a server to his or her score area
->The corp player adds an agenda from HQ, R&D, Archives, or installed in a server to his or her score area
->The corp player adds an agenda from HQ, R&D, Archives, or installed in a server to his or her score area
->The corp player adds an agenda from HQ, R&D, Archives, or installed in a server to his or her score area
I like the way 2.0 ICE works and can throw out your click math at the worst time.
>If we manage to see another 2.0, I hope it's a new one and we have no 1.0 to compare.
I don't know, there's something nice about the game having a legacy, giving you a sens of time and changes. See Sherlock cycle out of the card pool; see 2.0 come in. Cool interlocking of fluff and mechanics.
Actually, I think it would be interesting to see some of the 2.0 to be more cost efficient. Like a less costly (all things being relative), less STR, but still 4 subroutines brain damage... only you have to pay the break by two clicks. Could be a more terrifying prospect than just BIGGER!
>I don't know, there's something nice about the game having a legacy, giving you a sens of time and changes. See Sherlock cycle out of the card pool; see 2.0 come in. Cool interlocking of fluff and mechanics.
Sounds great. Except I don't want to wait until rotation to get new 2.0 bioroids.
>And then give it something entirely avoidable like brain damage for each card in you hand?
And then run with no cards in hand feeling smart and into a Snare!
What are you taking about? The plan is to restart from core+big boxes with a rotating format.
That's not a flaw. It makes the game diverse because you have to look at what your meta is running. Got a ton of meat damage? Get Plascrete/IHW. FA running amuck? Get The Source and Clot.
On the flip side, Cyberdex nicely counters viruses, Swordsman and Wraparound nicely counter AI breakers, and Sealed Vault counters Siphon/Vamp. No deck runs answers to everything so you look at what your group/metagame is using.
You mean when the runner is constantly fave checking ICE? That's the way the game SHOULD be.
>Only two good archetypes, neither use remotes
You're forgetting about RP which is a tier 1 deck since it was released. Ditto HB glacier.
Are you sure you play the game?
Silver bullets can definitively be a flaw if it gets out of hands.
Optimally what you'd want is answers that address a problem tangentially while not being directly a specific answer to it.
Easier said than done obviously.
Problem is too many silver bullets to too many issues and you reach a point where the whole deck building implodes and starts being almost exclusively about optimization to the current trends or too random to feel worthwhile to builders.
I meant the cards that are the biggest problem to the pool are the cards that will never rotate. We have all the down sides of rotation with none of the up.
When you design a game to have deck slots be it's most valuable resource then silver bullet design is awful. Losing a game from not having the space to slot in some random silver bullet to counter a dumb combo deck is not good deck design. Also 99% of the silver bullet cards have zero use outside of hard countering one style of play. It is the worse parts of "does he have a counter spell" MTG all over again.
Early game is not a thing. 100% of Tier 1 runner decks can run with zero risk on turn 2 or 3. 90% of them can bypass ICE to hit a Agenda you tried to rush with a decent starting hand from turn 1.
>Only two good archetypes, neither use remotes
RP was not remote play, it was RNG dice roll effects from Caprice and then run denial with agendas. That was control play. The only reason it worked is they had a 5-3 that self protected so they can get the extra deck space with less risk. Allowing them more time to set up and more room for their combos. Once the hard counter to that released the deck disappeared.
HB Glacier is a FA deck that throws out a bunch of ICE with a Ash and hopes to score some extra Agendas that way. It is still a FA deck at it's core.
>Once the hard counter to that released the deck disappeared.
Which I find amusing. As we already noted several times, competitive players don't play the counter cards -because "they're shit", but then stop playing the countered decks too.
Yes, as I keep saying: the issue is as much, if not more, the tournament format itself - that is the least significant part of the game from a design standpoint.
And the competitive mindset of course.
So add an operation that wipes all runner power counters into Weyland. Problem solved,
>Fuck you David
>Fuck you DaVinci
>Fuck you Overmind
>Fuck you Plascrete
>Fuck you Personal Workship
>Fuck you Study Guide
>Fuck you Black File
>Fuck you Turning Wheel
>Fuck you Stim Dealer
>And fuck YOU, Trope
oh god I missed the most hilarious one
>FUCK YOU, ATMAN
>The game is not bad it's the players
That is a backwards way of thinking. If the game starts to break at the highest level of play then it is a problem with the game.
Sure on a casual level any game is fine since you are not stressing the edges of the card pool or rules. But if it starts to creak at the competitive level you have issues that need to be addressed. Netrunner will die if it focuses on casual play only, casual play does not push the culture forward to draw in new players. At this rate if Legend of the Five Rings comes out in at all a good state Netrunner might be looking at the end of it's life.
StimDealer and Black Files are two examples where you actually *want* to add counters. Atman can be decent target too.
I want an interview with e designers to elucidate the mistery of that agenda.
The competitive players are not the players just a minority subset. And I do think their mindset creates it's own problems. But let's not go back there.
But then I mentioned the tournament format, didn't I?
A league format for one would allow for more diverse builds and still cater to the competitive types' needs, because you could afford decks with higher variance but a higher win threshold. Which you won't play because of the tournament format - again the least significant of the game from a design standpoint - for fear of losing that one game.
That would be decent for Weyland, since it solves the problem of David and their best ice are big ice. Clears Plascrete for Scorch decks.
Of course, it'd be good for Weyland, and that's why we'll never get it.
So, in the end, what's your opinion on this set guys?
I like them.
I stand by my pre-testing assessment of them: I like that their very existence changes the way the corp must count. Even at zero creds you might have a way in servers that would otherwise seem secure before the &E was released.
Had a lot of fun playing them in a deck with central breakers.
Definitely. Less aggressive, more targeted criminal. Don't waste you runs and all that.
I still wonder why Globalsec Security Clearance isn't a blue card really. It's so much their color of the pie. Despite being R&D. That's the kind of R&D pressure they need for their slower decks.
I know everyone is hype for gingerbread meta but, is somebody actually going to try it with Sadyojata?
If they were one each, I'd just run the full pack of nine, I think. You'd only need a few of them for the run you were making, so you should be fine with them going.
With some other strength increasing stuff(I've found out that Apex loves himself some Net Ready Eyes), it would be effective the turn you need it to be.
I will be bringing my Geist deck to my local store champs next month. It uses a full suite of these guys and splashes in one each of Sunny's GS breakers for late game reliability. Its fast, its mean, and it gets in anywhere it wants to.
tl;dr: I love them. B&E suite forever.
So, I'm torn.
Right now, I'm running Alias and Passport in my Apex deck, which pretty well telegraphs my intentions, but also lets me put pressure on HQ and R&D.
However, I was looking at Eater instead. I don't need the access for Apoc, it counters trap and other wonky ICE, and I can make it far more efficient with my ICE boosters, but I lose my ability to pressure.
Think I should switch?
Well, Xwing system is based around the Wings of War skirmish game, which is actually a really good dogfighting style of game. Xwing is also quite fine. You can't expect the action of piloting a Xwing to be translated all that well to a boardgame.
How do they keep it on the table then? It seems like it'd be hard to combo well with anything since you need to protect it an also have them take the tags. 9 times out of 10 they will likely just take the 2 damage after seeing it once and then your entire plan is ruined. 2 Meat Damage per again is not very strong in the current meta.
DRT is okay in Gagarin, but I really wouldn't go so far as to say it's a gamewinning card. Unless, of course, you manage to lock the Runner out of that one DRT server while you score and the Runner can't clear tags for whatever reason. On Worlds Plaza it's still not very good.
First, stablish a FEAR for checking remotes.
Second, giving tags during a run is easy, the hard part is making them unable to remove them before the end of the turn. But a single dataraven forces them to take the tag, unless they femme it or NACH the tag.
NACH is your worst enemy here.
Third, lots of stuff helps. Checkpoint, The Cleaners, traditional net damage.
Fourth, DRT is certainly a jank card, it requires lots of moving parts, but when the runner takes the raven tag, you rez 1 DRT, and then let them access a Psychic Field that will discard his entire hand. It's totally worth it.
Because remember, DRT triggers when the run ends.
Jinteki: Replicating Perfection
-- Agenda (9 cards)
1 Fetal AI
3 NAPD Contract
3 Nisei MK II
2 The Future Perfect
-- Asset (14 cards)
2 IT Department
3 Jackson Howard
3 Mental Health Clinic
3 Mumba Temple
-- ICE (15 cards)
2 Eli 1.0
1 Ichi 1.0
1 Lotus Field
-- Operation (6 cards)
2 Celebrity Gift
3 Hedge Fund
-- Upgrade (5 cards)
2 Ash 2X3ZB9CY
3 Caprice Nisei
MWL Mumba Temple RP. The goal is to play the usual RP tax game, but with more than double the number of must-trash targets in IT Dept, Sundew and Mumba Temple. I doubt RP really needs that econ, but Mumba Temple is nice for helping against Siphons and it fits into the flooding plan. Thoughts? I'm not quite satisfied with my ICE composition.
>yfw I just won a game with Casting Call, scored Cleaners, DRT, and an accessed agenda
>I'm not quite satisfied with my ICE composition.
That's what I was going to bring up. Your ICE composition doesn't really take advantage of IT Department, it's pretty porous and many can just be paid with clicks or credits.
Best you got is Komainu and Susanoo no Mikoto.
And while we are at that. If you boost a Komainu with IT Department, you could also include a couple House of Knives instead of Fetal to finish him off right away.
What Jinteki ice would benefit best from that extra strength or two? The way I see it, IT Dept will probably be lightly defended and can accumulate two or three counters before getting trashed. It should be useful in wasting the Runner's resources to open up a scoring window.
>What Jinteki ice would benefit best from that extra strength or two?
Neural Katana definitely. Getting away of Mimic range is huge for it. I'm considering Lag Time every time I see the card. But IT Department works just as well.
Inazuma is great too.
Won a few store champs last year with a drt deck, shame the mwl destroyed it
Near-Earth Hub: Broadcast Center
3x AstroScript Pilot Program
3x NAPD Contract
3x Project Beale
3x Dedicated Response Team ••••• ••••
3x Encryption Protocol •••
2x Jackson Howard
2x Marked Accounts
3x PAD Campaign
2x Snare! ••••
2x SanSan City Grid
1x Closed Accounts
3x Diversified Portfolio
2x Hedge Fund
1x Midseason Replacements
1x Eli 1.0 •
Code Gate (3)
3x Pop-up Window
3x Data Raven
17 influence spent (max 17)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to First Contact
just getting started in this game.(ill be going to my second organized playgroup tomorrow) i've ordered WLA, D&D, C&C, O&C, Future Proof, and Opening Moves so far. what other data packs are good to buy? i'm particularly interested in Weyland and Shaper.
Weyland is kinda in a bad place right now (cf. the post just below yours) but the new lead designer said we should expect great cards coming to Weyland.
As for what packs you need for Weyland, it mostly depends on what you like in the faction.
As long as it's good and not Meru Mati clones, I'm ok with it.
I mean, I love Bailiff already and it's not even out yet.
I see what you mean. And while I don't know that I agree with all of the piece, I do think the issue of NBN constantly comparing more favorably on what should be a Weyland archetype is spot on.
I think something people tend to forget is that meat damage - because Weyland - *was* supposed to be high variance, all or nothing solution. Hence why Plascrete was deemed a satisfying answer to it (well, that and lack of forethought I guess, but it's always easy to say it in hindsight).
Hell; look at Posted Bounty, it's *such* a nicely designed agenda in core context. Like, ok you think you have a kill shot? Well, take the bad pub then, but you better not be mistaken. Almost makes you wonder why IHW wasn't part of the basic package at the time.
Thing I've been thinking about is how hardly anyone acknowledges Weyland's capacity to rez ICE on its turn. It's becoming vital in current card pool, yet no one wants to play the cards allowing it, because "they're bad".
All that being said, I like the idea of cards that demand a certain number of bad publicity to be played.
What new agenda?
After a couple of games, pic related seems okay - I've not tried with Reversed or Exposé yet, but going from 1-12 with GRNDL was great, and adding 3 subs to Swarm was nice.
That was just a modification of an advancable deck though, might see what it can do with the likes of AIZ and some of the less playable advancable ice - after all, it does nothing for Space (I'll probably keep wormhole though)
That sounds interesting, if true.
Especially if unlimited uses, though it's still a 3/1
Any source on it?
You don't sound like a typical insider-style post, but he's proven wily before.
Score 3 of them, rez an ICE with CT behind it and have a Brain Damage ICE already installed. Rise the str of the ICE past what they can break and pop them with 3 brain damage.
Seems too good.
And I'd love it for that alone.
>score 3 3/1s, in Weyland
>imported Brain Damage ice
>CT + Lods of emone.
That seems reasonable, really.
It does seem a little pic related, but if anyone needs it, it's Weyland - something power counter based, a la House of Knives, would probably be fairer, but you'd need a lot of counters.
Though if it is real, give Curtain Wall an extra sub to laugh at D4v1d
5-1 Weyland Agenda that reads: For each advancement over 5 when this card is scored place 1 Agenda counter on it.
2 Agenda Counters: Resolve a subroutine on a piece of rezzed ice. Use this ability only during a run.
Hey all, looking for some advice. Have been peripherally interested in the game for a while, but due to lack of game stores in my region of Ontario, stayed away.
Mostly I'm just wondering how many packs are now out of print or otherwise hard/more expensive to acquire.
I've tried the game out before and enjoyed it, so beyond the core, what should a mostly casual player look at picking up early (if anything)?
>but with a damp fart and a red face
How do you figure - we've had the cards for what, a week?
That's pretty standard form for the spoilers, and nothing in the pack looks terrible - might not be amazing, but all of it at least looks interesting.
Also, Jesminder as sister confirmed
Advanced Concept Hopper is pretty decent for HB, especially given NAPD's on the MWL
And pic related is good for anarchs
>what is Run Amok
Over costed and you still need to interact with the ICE. Parasite is just better
>what is Mongoose
AI breakers are purely better even when you need to splash out of faction for them.
Just a bad card that does not fit in any T1 decks.
>Mumbad City Grid
More bad Jinteki ICE movement shit. ICE does not matter so this does not matter.
Advanced Concept Hopper is the closet thing to a playable Agenda but HB does not really need a 4-2 in any of their decks so it is still not a Tier 1 card.
None of those cards are even close to good.
Which subtypes are valid for Panchatantra to give to ice? Does the Runner have to choose a subtype on a rezzed piece of ice?
>Any subtype is valid. Subtypes are not specific to a particular card type, and you don’t have to choose one from rezzed cards.
Damon Stone himself has said it! THE JANK IS DEAL!!!!
Omega Console Killer is a go!
It is a worse Inside job as well. To use it as a Inside job you'd need to hit the ICE on the first run then run again on the server.
It is just not a good card. The only deck I can see playing it in is a super Blackmail focused deck that needs ways to run remotes without the risk of making them Blackmail immune later. Even then it is useless on remotes with more then 1 ICE.
MFW Parasite is the Counter Spell/Removal of Netrunner.
Seems like you win in any scenario provided you've got unrezzed ice to work with.
If they don't rezz, that's 3c (plus the cost of breaking anything after) for a free or easier access.
If they do rezz, you basically get an instant memless Parasite on that ICE, even if you bounce.
Also, there's nothing stopping you getting in if they rez ice - it's still a normal run. And you still trash
And, for the super-niche scenarios, it works against Underway servers too.
I could see the Eater MaxX deck type using it, though the one on the front page of NRDB is pretty strapped for slots
Reina would have loved it when she was on the up but I imagine MaxX will eclipse her for awhile
That's way too powerful, they'll never make a card like
Makes Kala TV much more valuable.
Then you add Targeted Marketing, and Ibrahim Salem, and the runner might as well be playing with a revealed hand
I think the best way to use it would be in something like a Despotism shell, though you might have to cut the tagging to make it work. Corporate Town can deal with resources if you're running License Aqcuisition though.
>a Despotism shell
A what now?
Well if him just helping you out is, alliance, why not the man himself as well?
Still trying to work out if he's a film guy, a mob guy, both or neither
"Clean yourself up, and play the game. Play the part like you always have, and maybe you’ll survive. Frag this up, and you’ll wish you’d never been born."