>HHG FAQ - http://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
>Official HH 7th Edition Errata (Updated January 2016) - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf
>Xenos in 30K Homebrew - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Xenos_in_30k
>HH Black Library
Anyone try the core missions out of book 5? Or Strategic Raids/City Fights? They look fun but the Onsalught one seems like AL and RG could abuse the hell out of it.
The additional deployment types add some variety too.
I only play the core AoD missions with my group. Maelstrom of War was fun a couple times then just became too random. Planning on doing a Conquest campaign soon so we might do the raid missions.
I play Iron Warriors and with Kyr Vhalen an imperial bunker is pretty much an auto include. I was thinking of picking up a Castellum Stronghold eventually but I got way to much other stuff to paint at the moment.
So, concerning Daemons in AoD primary detachment, am I correct in presuming that 4 heralds per HQ slot rule is active?
There's nothing making it illegal, but it seems too powerful on paper.
It's active, but if you read the rule carefully, you can only do it once per primary detachment. After that, each herald takes a full HQ slot (and always does for allied detachments).
That Death Guard list faggot again. I think I've finally made a well rounded, points cost effective army list with just the right combination of Fluff and Fun. Check it.
Death Guard 4k
Rite of War: The Reaping
Calas Typhon 200pts
Deathshroud Terminators 420pts
- 4 models
- Land Raider Phobos
Apothecarion Detachment 180pts
- 3 Apothecaries
- Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner
Contemptor Dreadnought Talon 390pts
- 2 Dreadnoughts
- Dread 1: Kheres Assault Cannon, DCCW w/Heavy Flamer with Chem Munitions
- Dread 2: Multimelta, DCCW w/Graviton Gun
Tactical Squad 335pts
- 20 models
- Additional CCW
- Sergeant: Power Fist, Combi-Flamer w/chem munitions, Rad Grenades, Artificer Armour
Tactical Squad 335pts
- 20 models
- Additional CCW
- Sergeant: Power Fist, Combi-Flamer w/chem munitions, Rad Grenades, Artificer Armour
Heavy Support Squad 350pts
- 10 models
- Missile Launchers
- Flakk Grenades
- Sergeant: Augury Scanner, Rad Grenades
Veteran Tactical Squad 270pts
- 10 models
- 2 Meltaguns
- Sergeant: Thunder Hammer, Combi-melta, Rad grenades
Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought 305pts
- Siege Drill with built in Melta
- Armoured Ceremite
- Phosphex Discharger
- Grav-flux Bombard
Deredeo Dreadnought 185pts
Grave Warden Terminators 700pts
- 10 Models
- 2 Chainfists
- 2 Heavy Flamers with Chem Munitions
- Spartan Assault Tank
LORDS OF WAR
I'm considering using Dark Brethren ROW for PE loyalists and Daemon bros, however what would be the best use of my one HS slot a Sicaran, Spartan with Gal Vorbak or a Fire Raptor?
Hello, 30k noob here. I know you hate BaC for bringing in scrubs but I have a question about BaC itself (having just gotten it, at work so can't read the rules). Is there anything stopping me from splitting up the Loyalist/Heretics into different groups (say, give the terminators to the Word Bearers or switch the leaders around) for purposes of playing the board game itself?
Any idea when or if traitor forces will be able to take chaos marks or wargear? I was reading the fluff in Massacre and the taint of chaos is already evident in SoH, EC, and WB legions. I just wonder when we will get options for it mechanically in legions other than WB. Any thoughts?
This was kitbashed from a Valkyrie conversion kit.
Speaking of Lightning, should one try and keep them cheap or pour all you got into them for maximum punch.
I'm looking at one with full compliment of penetrator missiles, battle servitor and auguries (235pts.) Six S8 AP1 Armourbane missile with BS5 and Tank Hunter should do the trick against ceramite and flare shield land raiders and their ilk, right?
How well does the Legion autocannon set work on Cataphractii terminators? I'd like to use Fulmentarus Terminators but the damn Cataphractii special/heavy weapons set comes with a bunch of shit I don't need and only 1 autocannon.
I play IF and Macrotek-focused Mechanicum, so I use the Wall of martyrs imperial defence line, with battle cannon batteries, other stuff and fill it with bolter bodies or slaves (allied militia)
How to use?
1) Should I buy 5 and put in a Spartan with a combat character?
2) Deep Strike 10?
How would you arm a unit of 5, and 10?
Obviously run Power Mauls, but should the Dark Martyr pack a Power Fist for S10 or a pair of Lightning Claws?
Leaning more towards 5 in Spartan, 1x Maul and Martyr with Power Fist with accompanying Chaplain.
Put them in a spartan, if you deepstrike them there just going to get shot out before they get the charge on, also Gal Vorbak are literal Daemons which means they can't be joined by non Daemon characters
Ok, that was my thought. So I will get more mileage out of 5+1 and Spartan than 10 normally?
Ok, that's what i thought too. Only Instability inhibits it, not basic Daemon.
Only the saltiest of us hate BaC and new players by default; most of us are merely suspicious through experience, but to be honest the cure is worse than the disease sometimes.
The missions in the book have predetermined forces (except for weapon loadouts), you could modify them yourself but you'd have to "wing it" a little. However, it's not at all hard to do, the game is designed for it (it's expandable).
105: Legion Centurion-Chaplain, Artificer Armour, Retractor Field
235 Gal Vorbak x5, Power Mace 1x, Martyr with Artificer Armour and Power Fist
340: Legion Spartan Assault Tank, Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield
All this for 680pts. Assuming you get the charge, it can take out most non-Primarchs and many other combat-stars assuming they don't have a named character.
For Quad Mortar/Thudd Guns, I keep seeing people (and 1dChan) mention Shatter Shells (4 S8, re-roll armour pen). I don't see that. Was it added in a later book? Cause its not under Field Artillery Weapons, pg 239 of HHB1: Betrayal
>trying to figure out the 5pts extra over the Fist
people don't usually target 2+ saves or high toughness units, they usually get thrown at large units where they simply get overwhelmed by 5 attacks on the charge.
they represent field repairs where they didn't have time to make a clean suit of armour so just bolted the whole thing together IIRC
Horus used his dark mechanicus connections to outfit the traitor legions with the best gear.
>Who was in charge of Imperial military before the Heresy?
>Who got decide where all the cool toys went?
>Who started the civil war that would burn the galaxy to the ground?
>Who got first access to the newest, best equipment?
Horus and his co-conspirators.
Horus set this shit up, man. He made sure that his forces were in the best position possible before launching the life eater, we're talking years of plotting and positioning.
It came around late Crusade, especially with the Mk. V suits. Basically, to save in manufacturing and maintenance costs, they riveted the layers of the armour together. The left side pauldrons and greaves were the most common, because they'd be the ones facing the enemy and thus subject to most damage and repairs. Mk. V had plenty of studded armour. Mk. IV received studs through repairs. Mk. 6 has studs both for the same reason as the Mk. V as well as later, after the Heresy, as merely a decorative thing.
They are called '"molecular bonding studs". Basically their purpose is to help attach extra layers of material to power armour, strengthening it against other legions weapons. It became much more prevalent as the heresy went on and supplies became scarcer to maintain standards of armour manufacture.
Anything from 2000 to 3000 is fine, but if you wan to pick a single value probably 2500. That way everyone gets to bring out their cool stuff or expensive Lord of War without getting really crazy shit like Perturabo's Tormentor or the Warlord in a Leviathan detachment.
Yeah, Gal Vorbak are great at munching through 20 man tac squads or anything with a 3+ armour save.
10 GV for 2 base attacks each, three on the Martyr, +1 for x2 CCW, +1 for charging, +1 for rage gets you 51 S5 rending attacks on the charge, 16 of them at AP3 if you go for dual LCs on the martyr and power swords on two of the guys.
Alpha Legion, eh? They're not terrible and can be pretty decent in the right situations. If you ever find yourself up against Mechanicum they're going to be invaluable. Beyond that the odds for getting a Precision Shot with your special weapons aren't spectacular, and they can always LoS! it off, but when you do happen to snipe their 2+ character tank with a plasma or melta shot it's gonna be damn satisfying.
If no one in your meta fields Mechanicum then they're not necessarily the best, but if they do - especially if they're fielding lots of Castellax - then wounding those T7 killing machines on a 4+ with bolters is very, very useful.
Since most of the people starting HH right now are doing it with the BaC box you can expect to see a lot of VetTacs one way or the other. It's good to know what they are and aren't capable of given that most of the armies you see are gonna be using them until they start to collect more dudes.
Current meta is an imperial fist player that spams boarders and spartans and has a typhon. Then there's the night lords player that has battle of calth and two players starting iron hands and emperor's children.
there isn't one single mkv, mkv is a term for any types of armour that appeared during the heresy. There were complete sets, see the forgeworld mkv marines, who were developed allongside indomitus terminator armour during the heresy. There were lots of heresy armours produced by forgeworlds, in addition to the cobbled together armours.
Well, sniper is going to be effective against both the Imperial Fists player (+1 toughness when he has his guys together) and the Iron Hands player (-1S to incoming shooting has no effect on sniper). Mass infiltration is always useful for missions with objectives, especially Maelstrom of War or AoD: Dominion which both feature progressive scoring.
The Spartans and Typhon are going to be a problem for naked infantry models and you're definitely going to want to get some Graviton in your list somewhere so that you can Haywire glance them to death.
does anyone have the general dimensions for the legion rapier platform? I wanna scratchbuild/convert some
Thanks on wisdom.
I figured they were best at mulching semi-elite units or anything without mass Invuls.
Yeah, they can mulch lots, and thats not even adding in Rending either.
2k to 3k points, proxying parts of my 40k marines as 30k marines where needed
I'm not sure where to get graviton from, my current 3k list has a fellblade, sicaran, and a vindicator with POTMS and a dreadnought for AT, that and everyone in my list has a melta-bomb/chainfist
Most people say no, because it makes city-busting artillery into strictly anit-infantry weaponry (of which the legion lists already have heaps). S5 can't pen anything worth pen'ing, while S10 AP2 Ordnance is great against vehicles/fortifications and as good against infantry as Phosphex is anyway (better in many cases as it wounds easier between T5 and T8 and causes Instant Death).
However, there are some specialized cases where it's useful. Against some hordes (something more like cult lists than just large numbers of marines), being able to reposition the template can make them even more fearsome than regular ammo (anything under the blast is dead either way, but this allows you to hit more models especially if you're unlucky with your scatter rolls). Also, some lists (e.g. Death Guard with The Reaping) can place unholy amounts of difficult/dangerous terrain around to slow advances and channel enemy forces into deliberate firing lanes. But they're pretty advances tactics and won't always be viable depending upon the opponent, their army, and the terrain.
If it had the same S as regular Medusa shells (since you have to pay a HQ tax to get them, being a straight-up upgrade would be fair), or at least you could fire one or the other each turn instead of having to pick all or nothing at the start of the game, then it might see more use.
They may show up in specific campaign games where certain details of the battle are known ahead of time, but mostly anyone who takes them will be doing so for fluff reasons only.
That was measured of a quad rapier one.
>I'm not sure where to get graviton from, my current 3k list has a fellblade, sicaran, and a vindicator with POTMS and a dreadnought for AT, that and everyone in my list has a melta-bomb/chainfist
Oh, I had the impression your army was just starting. Sounds like you've got plenty of solid anti-armor options.
Do you think it'll be released AT the Weekender? Sorry I'm new to all this, and I'm debating whether to wait til book 6 to 100% choose a Legion because Dark Angels were my first army way back in 3rd edition. Feel like I should give them a fair chance before I sell my soul to Sigismund and the Fists.
>Do you think it'll be released AT the Weekender?
Yes, they'll sell limited copies at the weekender like they've done before and then sell it on their site a couple weeks later. I wouldnt be surprised to see a primarch also, we still need Alpharius and Dorn before they go into Propsero.
Holy shit I can't believe I'm this excited about the resin/plastic version of Blizzcon. Thanks for letting me join this community. Also if Alpharius gets a badass model this decision will get so much fucking harder.
Yeah someday I'll be able to afford Spartans and Sicarans, but for now I'm doing the high school student equivalent of having a used Honda Civic by just buying a Land Raider kit off eBay haha.
To be honest even though I can afford the shit, I'm tempted to convert some Spartans from Land Raiders because
a)The Spartan kit might be the single worst thing I've ever bought from FW. it is an absolute motherfucker to assemble
b)A spartan really isn't that much bigger than a LR. Cut off the top track covers so you have exposed tracks all the way round, and lengthen the front of the hull with some plasticard so the assault ramp sticks out a bit more and you've got a perfectly acceptable Spartan IMO.
>The Spartan kit might be the single worst thing I've ever bought from FW. it is an absolute motherfucker to assemble
I have heard this from literally everyone who built it, what makes it so hard to assemble?
According to the people that have gone to the open days this book will have rules for Knight Errants, Garro and another named character and then an entry to make your own Knight Errant.
The tracks don't fit. They're around 1.5 links too long. They're also impossible to properly bend backinto shape.
The track space in the hull has xboxhuge chunks of flash in it that need to be fucking gouged out
The hullpieces are always bent, and never quite line up properly when straightened
The door slots are slightly the wrong size which means chopping down any legion specific doors you wanna fit
The quadlas sponsons are always FUBAR
The really annoying thing was at the same time I was building one of those I also did my first Sicaran which might be the single easiest FW thing I've ever built. With that the entire side pieces of the hull, including the tank tread, is cast as a single piece. Why the fuck they couldn't do that with the Spartan i'll never know
Thanks for the encouragement. The Sicaran is the tank I'd actually want to buy from FW but the Sicaran is just so much better crunch-wise than a Land Raider...but then I remembered: I'm playing 30k not 40k and don't have to be a WAAC bro.
>With that the entire side pieces of the hull, including the tank tread, is cast as a single piece. Why the fuck they couldn't do that with the Spartan i'll never know
That's how my Spartan came actually. They updated the model (but not the instructions) months ago.
Hardest model I put together was my Fellblade, no instructions (because I bought from a cheap recaster from ebay) and so many gaps between parts. Took me a long ass time just filing the parts so they would fit together. I'm afraid if I drop the thing, it will be completely unusable.
Yes, 4x missiles then TH and SR. Jink for a 3+ and then if you survive you still have a TLLC.
Shatter and Frag are listed in the wargear for rapier quad mortars in the summary in the back of the red book.
Go with double HBs
Only in city fight missions or against hordes
I actually picked up the puppets war equivalent. Much cheaper. They photos on the site dont do them justice either. They're pretty nice.
It's so much easier to get a bit of plasticard and make your own from a plastic raider.
So is it still a bitch to build then, or did the changes actually improve it? I've been on the fence about building a mechanized Iron Hands list for ages and the pain in the ass that is the Spartan has been a big part of why I never bothered.
If I buy Betrayal at Calth, can I start a small Alpha Legion army out of it? How many points?
Also what would be good to add after that?
I'd love to see your sources, because the original article for the armours says that Mk. V was devised as a suit that used the components and technologies of previous suits in a new and more efficient way. It's not something they came up afterwards to note this bunch of suits here. It was a design that could be passed on to any techpriest who knew how to make power armour, and they'd be able to use the instructions to make the suits from parts and technologies they're already familiar with without needing that much new productions facilities, etc.
You can, exactly what you get depends upon how you build it. Read the resources in the OP. In particular, find the Crusade Army List for general unit rules, and the Legiones Astartes Isstvan Campaign for Alpha Legion rules. The official FAQ adds a couple of units, one of which should definitely be considered for BaC forces.
For just one box, people typically build the marines as veterans rather than tactical marines, this allows them to take some special weapons and get generally better troops. Some other units are possible too, in particular Support Squads and Heavy Support Squads if you buy multiple BaC boxes or trade weapons with other people who bought one.
The minimum points total of everything in the box is 900, if you build it in the most points-efficient way possible and take no upgrades (Consul Delegatus, Centurion, Tactical Marines, Terminators, Contemptor). Getting more sensible units and upgrades easily lets you get to 1500 or even 2000.
The units in the box are:
1x Praetor/Centurion (Terminator)
1x Contemptor Dreadnought
5x Terminators/Command Squad (recommended: Terminator Squad)
30x Veterans/Command Squad/Tactical Marines/Assault Marines/Seekers (recommended: Veteran Tactical Marines, not recommended: Assault Marines)
If you take a Praetor with the Pride of the Legion Rite of War, Veteran squads and Terminator squads are Troops choices.
If you take a Centurion with Consult Delegatus and the Chosen Duty Rite of War, Veteran squads are Troops choices.
You could make the tactical marines into Alpha Legion-specific Headhunter Kill Teams, but you'd probably regret doing so (the Forge World ones look really nice and are due out any day now; and they're Fast Attack choices). You couldn't really make Alpha Legion-specific Lernaean Terminator Squads without at least shelling out for Volkite weapons for them (and Power Axes unless you want to upgrade every one to take Power Fists or Chainfists).
Yeah they're decent. The thing with them is they're so versatile and everything they're good at adds to their points cost. So their points inefficiency outweighs the versatility a little.
Have to keep it in mind. I was gonna use the Nephilim as the basis of a conversion and it comes with 6 missiles in its banks, so I would have wanted to have 6 missiles on the flyer as well. Too bad there's not really any cheap missiles to pick for the last 2. Sunfury is the cheapest, but only 10pts. less than the Kraken. And they don't work very well with Jinking. There's always TL missile launcher for the last slot. Would give the lascannon some backup when making snap shots.
Have to toy around with some ideas.
If we're going whole hog on the rumors here, it was also discussed at the last event(s) that:
>the istvaan legions were getting a touch up (like the EC getting some sort of initiative bonus on charging or the SoH getting a WS buff in a despoiler configuration)
>all of the legions/the istvaan ones were getting new rites of war (EC getting the Kakophani one, the WB getting the Vorbak one, SoH getting MC on turn one)
>the re-release of the army list/legion rules will include new special rules, but no points adjustments, for units that are under performing
I'm hoping that the DG get rad grenades shifted into standard legion rules, sweep attack gets buffed to an auto hits, uniquely they let their medusas take phosphex and regular shells or let other artillery take mini phosphex shells (heavy 1 phosphex rapiers?) and the new RoW is destroyers/grave warden centric, with everything being a denial unit in the same manner as Typhon and getting to blow up objectives (hell, destroyers should be able to do this anyways)
My Death Guard want True Grit. That's all. They're pretty much perfect, but then I'm basically always using The Reaping.
Ooh, actually, I want Power Scythes to be an option to replace CCW on Dreadnoughts. I've already converted some, and something with a base that big and ignoring Unwieldy can actually get some use out of it.
what are the rules on kitbashing?
i see it mentioned from time to time and i thought it was just combining shit to form an amalgamation of spare parts
can you create usable formation units from this?
BaC is great for AL since they need a lot of power armor bodies usually. Hell, get two BaC, have a bunch of rhinos, buy a spartan and a pack of power exes + volkite weapons to make Lernaens and you can have an easy 2k+
Not him but the source is Deliverance Lost. THe Raven Guard are given the first loyalist shipment of Mk 6 armor, recovered from Mars, and they ask, "What happened to Mk 5?" The response was essentially, "You're already wearing it."
So the dude's an idiot, nothing new there. And BL is shitty writing, nothing new there either.
It's true that some suits were made purely by clobbering shit together in repairs, but as a whole it was still a distinct mark, designed and built to be that. It wasn't mark 1-4, nor was it 6-8. It had its own distinct design with its own blueprints and all.
What was True Grit, for the newfags (like me)?
Yeah, pretty much any of those sounds pretty good.
I still don't understand why phosphex is a swap rather than an addition, like missile launchers
What's a good way to build 2000 points of soh? Favorite legion, don't care to be the best, just don't want to get stomped/be fluffy. I was thinking reavers, 20 man tacs in flyers and some justarein
WIP Space Wolves Contemptor Dreadnought.
This took longer than I thought it would. Not sure about if I need to put any pelts on this one.
>Branne nodded. ‘You called it Mark VI. What happened to Mark V?’
>Noriz pointed at the Raven Guard legionaries.
‘With full production not yet begun on Mars, these are the only suits available. Our companion transport has another fifteen hundred of them, on top of the five hundred we are carrying. In the absence of reliable Legion supply lines, the Mechanicum have designated all non-standard or stop-gap designs as Mark V. Many of the improvisations made by your armourium after the dropsite massacre are being passed on to other Legions in the absence of replacement parts for Mark IV. Your legionaries already have Mark V, commander.’
The point is it wasn't one single design, but many different designs.
Read your own pic
It was a use of old materials - so that means it's not a new purpose made in factories design
Improvised stop-gap - again not a thought out design
Vary a great deal - so again not a central new design
Mark 5 is a case of mark 4 being fixed and repaired with older marks and bits and pieces/ jury rigged to cope with legion weapons
The General issue of the Mk IV suit was incomplete when the Horus Heresy erupted. This threw the entire Mk IV supply program into turmoil. In fact many of the most recently equipped Legions joined Horus in rebellion, while many loyalist Legions were forced to continue using the older marks of armour. The resulting confusion was considerable. The Space Marine armourers (Techmarines and Artificers) had hardly grown familiar with the new armour, and many were as yet unable to properly maintain, let alone duplicate it, as was originally intended.
With the Mk 4 newly in service, the need for large amounts of Mk IV spares had not been anticipated, resulting in suits rapidly becoming unusable due to even quite minor battle damage. It was soon found that the new and rather specialised materials used in construction of the Mark 4, were generally unavailable locally, and this increasingly became a problem as Legions moved from battle-zone to battle-zone. Loyal Imperial forces were soon forced into a fallback position.
Mass production of Mk IV armour was suspended indefinitely, and a new type of armour was 'designed' literally overnight to address the situation at hand, improvised suits of armour made from what was at hand and could be easily acquired. This armour was designated the Mk 5 or Heresy suit.
Then do give sources.
>It was a use of old materials - so that means it's not a new purpose made in factories design
Except, you know, the helmet, torso, legs and arms being unique to itself and none of the previous designs. You read it again. They, for example, used the heavier cables of the Mk. 2 and 3 suits, but since the leg, torso and arm armour was different, it couldn't be fitted inside the new armour design and thus went on the outside.
>Improvised stop-gap - again not a thought out design
Enought that they could supply blueprints for it. Doesn't mean people all over were just told to wing it. They had plans on how to formulate such suits from materials that existed.
>Vary a great deal - so again not a central new design
So do all the armour marks! Sure, they used as much of the good stuff for Mk. 5s as possible, but you're making it sound like they just threw shit together with no plan, which totally isn't the case.
>Mark 5 is a case of mark 4 being fixed and repaired with older marks and bits and pieces
The text doesn't say that. It says that because materials for Mk. 4 suits weren't available, they turned to older armour marks for components and technologies to make the new suit. Where does it say Mk. 5 is an old Mk. 4 repaired with older mark stuff?
>jury rigged to cope with legion weapons
Where does it say that?
I think we have a case of paragraph one here.
The only source I can remember off the top of my head is the Deathwatch book with the different armor marks. I want to say Rites of Battle, but could be another one.
There's probably also something in Index Astartes and I think the FW HH books touched on it at some point, possibly around the time they did the Raven Guard.
Plotholes such as?
Keeping in mind that the effort to do so did not start until the time that The First Heretic was released, and that any earlier HH books are invalid unless they're in the hardcover release.
Don't really want to dwell on the validity of FFG books.
They are a pretty extensive set of text, so I'll need some pointers or it'll take some time to browse through them. Don't remember them talking much about armour marks, so at best it's a comment somewhere. Have to see what I can find.
It mostly talks about RG receiving prototype armour with a provisional designation of Mk. V, but which became the Mk. VI.
Unless there's some other bit somewhere else I'm missing.
Nah, they don't cost much more if any than similarly powerful legion specific terminators like Firedrakes or Tyrants. It's pretty much the same thing I was thinking of doing for a Zone Mortalis game - one unit of Secutors, one unit of Destructors, and some Thallax for troops with either a Myrmidax Prime or an Archmagos Reductor as HQ to represent a band of Myrmidon cultists or a band of Reductor boarders (although that was for 1k limit).
Really you don't want to put more points into if you want to go for optimization. But if it's something you want to do then for aesthetics...
>no points adjustments
Still sticking to the "this was an off-hand comment that got over propagated" idea. Really cannot see how turning assault marines from severely over-costed to points bloated from rules is going to fix anything. Standard marine in 3+ with a jump pack is still basically fodder(comparatively).
The thing is that you're going to want to have some kind of counter to Terminators in a ZM game as almost any list is gonna have a squad of them for fluff reasons (and because the BaC box has one and most people want to use them). Destructors with Imploders are like GravCents on cocaine when it comes to blowing up TEQ units.
Also, Irad-Engines probably would feel like cheese in a ZM game with how crazy powerful templates are. Add fleshbane w/ PE, torrent and AP 3 and it's a little much, honestly.
How are Ashen Circle, especially when considering Assault Marines are pretty bad.
A unit of 10 with 2-3 Power Axes and some Phosphex Bombs is only about 300 pts for 10 templates and look decent in assault.
Is a 20man Legionnaire squad gonna get more mileage?
Realized how little heresy there is in my life
So I'm throwing in with chaos, 3000 points of delicious Word Bearer with a side of Daemon
ROW: The Dark Brethren
Crimson Apostle With x2 Blade Slaves
x2 Chainswords Each
- Melta Bombs
- Artificer Armour
- Power Fist
- Dark Channeling
x10 Tac Support
- Melta Bombs
- x10 Volkite Calivers
- Melta Bombs
- Drop Pod
- Dark Channeling
- Plasma Cannon
Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought
- Missile Launcher
- Icon of Chaos
- Instrument of Chaos
x10 Pink Horrors
- Icon of Chaos
- Instrument of Chaos
Total: 2999 pts
Erebus goes with the x20 squad and the x10 tactical squad hang behind the Crimson Apostle, Lorgar goes with his Gal Vorbeck Bodyguard.
25ppm before upgrades. 20 at a full 20man. That's before upgrades too, which is what really makes it hurt.
Other jump units like Dark Furies already have good equipment and special rules.
So if they added equipment starting out, or *severely* discounted purchasable equipment while adding a special rule to the unit. Then they might be acceptable. I still would probably never take them, even being RG. But still, maybe they'll get more screen time for others.
As for fighting AC things, dreads with dual grav and chain will do much better than AMs for the points.
I'm talking about the lightning. It's 210pts. for 4 penetrator missiles, tank hunter and strafing run. 25pts. more for 2 more missiles isn't going to break the bank. Hell, with a bit of luck it might get a second chance at using the bloody things. After all, if it can Jink itself clear of return fire, it can always fly off the board and return another turn to toss the last two at something else, along with some lascannon shots.
Different anon here. The extra 25 pts is a decent idea as long as you have the points. That way you get to do two runs of TL Lascannon + 3 missiles, or one balls-out run of five missiles at once (since you're BS5 with Strafing Run you could fire five weapons).
If you think you're only going to need it for one run, though, just save the points and do the TL LC + 4 missile run then jink around being annoying. Honestly if it doesn't kill its target in a single run to get its points back there's a good chance you won't get the second run anyway, and by the time you jink off the board and fly back in the target may have already done so much damage that it's a moot point.
>(since you're BS5 with Strafing Run you could fire five weapons)
How so? A flyer can only fire 4 weapons at full BS. Anything beyond that is snap shots. No point in wasting points to that.
Oh, I thought it was one weapon per point of ballistic skill, my bad.
The more I think about it the better it is to just run it without the third set of missiles and hope that one volley does the trick.
Erebus: Why? Zardu does everything he adds.
Zardu and Slaves: They can't join a unit, and want to get close.
The Gals: How many and with what?
Tactical 1: Give the Serg a PW if they plan to be choppy
Tactical 2: Why PF and AA when this squad is less likely to assault?
Tac Support: I like
Jetbikes: Never seen anyone play prior. What role do they have?
Judge Dread: Endorsed.
Be'lakor: Nice guy
Flamers: Min size is best
Deamonettes: Why? Horrors are much better here
Horrors: Great. Do they need the Icon and Instrument though?
Seekers: Love these gals
Burning Chariot: Should be good.
Gals, five with no upgrades
Tac 1 will do
Tac 2: fair nuff
Jetbikes: speed around, harass and zap some TEQ's
Daemoness, totally get ya, but gonna keep them, love the models too much, will stick erebus with them )also love that model too much( and add in a chaplain for the x20
Gals want at least a Power Maul, especially on the Martyr. Deep Striking only 5 is risky, and walking is equally dangerous to Templates.
Tac1: Maybe even AA on him, but your choice.
Tac2: Good loss
Dickbikes: I feel for 150pts you can do better. Only 1W makes them really vulnerable, and you dont need to drop that many pts just for a Plasma Cannon and 2 HBs that lack synergy
Deamons: I have the last edition of Daemonettes and love them, but feel that Bloodletters are better here. Horrors should sit back and objective grab while summon assisting.
Chaplin in the 20man is wise, so Erebus makes sense if that is their point. I'd try to find room for an Apothecary then, as they are gonna be a big target.
Well, in regular games they at least have to get to the enemy, which means getting them a transport since they can't run, which means a very expensive unit (usually a deathstar of both Imploders and Irad-Engines with the HQ). In ZM those torrent templates are gonna find enemies and erase entire squads at a time pretty easily, especially if you're playing as the defender and don't need to move them much.
I'd get rid of the Blade Slaves, despite being sweet as models, just use them as Dark Martyrs or something. Then put Zardu in with tacticals, he's a chaplain too despite not counting as one for RoW.
Blade Slaves and Zardu want a transport like a Drop Pod, and unless doing that, i'd skip on them.
They would make great Dark Martyr substitutes. Zardu does prove to be a solid choice. And with leftover pts, add CCWs to that tactical and add the Apothecary.
Hey, what are the ways I can run this guy?
I think I like Alpha Legion, especially in the illustrated color scheme (more than in FW's photos) but I dunno… it's hard to relate to them without knowing what they're thinking. I wish their fluff was just a little less vague. What's their endgame?
Don't make your army based on the goals of the entire Alpha Legion. You're not playing the entire Alpha Legion. You're playing one cell/company who may have a connection to the Alpha Legion. You're on a need to know basis. Your goal for the next year is to do everything you can to delay the forces around you. All of them, friend and foe. You don't know why. You don't need to know why. And the method you use to accomplish this is up to you. Good luck.
One of each melee arm is good; they're not specialist weapons so you'll get +1A, and for only 5pts you get the choice of the infantry raping default arm attacks or the vehicle/building raping siege arm attacks.
Double shooty arms aren't bad either, just remember that they're very short ranged. It does become very expensive this way and runs the risk of getting tarpitted as you lose base attacks if you replace melee arms with gun arms.
Either way you've got to weigh whether or not he's worth his points, as he's about as expensive as two Dreads that could fill both shooty and choppy roles instead of one or the other.
The problem with Alpha Legion is that a "mystery" where even the writers don't know the answer is basically meaningless (see: Lost). I agree with >>44844239. The only way to make them work is to give your guys specific goals for unspecific reasons which hint at a much greater and far reaching plan.
I want to play this game. I like the idea of Blood Angels, White Scars, Night Lords, and Death Guard. Is there a good reason to avoid or pick any of those? I know essentially nothing about each legion's special rules or special units
He's just under the cost of an Imperial Knight.
I'd rather run one of those, or take 2.5 normal Dreads, or 2 other Contemptors instead for his cost.
Storm Cannon is cool, 6 shots, but S7 and Sunder is mixed rule.
Grav-flux bombard is great but short ranged.
I feel he wants to challenge MCs, but there aren't many in 30k and they are still cheaper and better.
You'd need to playtest it honestly, I haven't seen it used. It might not be a bad idea, but it depends on how you read how the bonus attack rules work. The rules state that the bonus for two weapons are already included in the profile (A4), but that you lose one attack for every melee weapon replaced with a gun. However, if you replace a melee weapon with a gun you also lose the bonus for having two melee weapons, so you'd actually lose two attacks for the first weapon so removed, bringing you down to only two attacks (and if you replace both he only has one attack).
Long story short: the hybrid build actually loses out pretty heavily in melee and doesn't protect against getting tarpitted that much. If you're gonna go shooty you may as well go full shooty. The Storm Cannon is pretty neat since it gives you Kheres level shooting but with AP3 base instead of Rending.
This anon is on point, pretty much what he said.
Ouch, didn't realise you lose 2 attacks by going mixed.
Still, looks pretty great
So all this talk about that big fat dreadnought, what should I do with my ghetto plastic contemptors? I'm thinking of using a hacksaw and making on a contemptor mortis with dual kheres...but for the other one, do I go double fist with double graviton guns or melta + fist/graviton gun? I'm sure this gets asked a lot, sorry.
Ok, what can you tell me about the other two? OR are there any legions that people generally consider fun to play or more frustrating to have as an army? I want to get a feel for the 'meta' - not in a waac powergaming sense, but just to see what the flavors are beyond colors and fluff
after the tread about backgrounds a couple of days ago I decided to think up some fluff for my Imperial fists...
...but now I can't get it translated into proper writing so that it seems coherent
Power level predictions:
White Scars will be on the lower end of medium-tier. Wolves will be on the upper end of it.
Dark Angels will be Iron Hands level of strong with super bikes AND super terminators.
White Scars will sound right, but I'm sure they'll have some unique bike unit that will make 30k actually look at bikes for once.
Wolves will likely be higher end of mid-tier, but limited idea on units beyond Scouts. They are not among Legions I particularly care for,
Dark Angels will flooooood Plasma and maybe Jetbikes. Maybe unique Termies that are scoring with Plasma Blasters.
Can't speak for everyone, but I find as RG that anything they can do another unit can do better.
The one tech thing I want to try is 6 bikes, a bunch of axes, and a forge lrod with rad grenades. S6 vs T3 at AP2 to run through tacs with apoths and scour enemy scoring.
But I have more Deythan and Dark Furies for that... I supposed if I ever wanted to do a Pale Nomad army...
3 Outrider Bikes are 90pts. They have 2ccw and Scout, but upgrades for TL Melta or TL Plasma are super expensive.
So 6 Bikes with 6 TL Meltaguns (you can do this!) and a Sergeant with Power Sword is 355pts. Sure its quick, but 1W each with only T5 and a 3+ means they die quick, even to overheating. You can take harder hitting/shooty units over them.
A pal plays White Scars in 40k and refuses to carry his list into 30k because it isn't that great.
Hmm...guess FW is going to try and special rule them to usability (though i have no idea how they're going to do it...fixing points would be so much more easier for them).
First legion so they get all the cool and rare tech, wouldn't be surprised if their plasma didn't get hot or re-rolled failed gets hot.
>try and special rule them to usability
I'll believe it when I see it. Outriders already have a bunch of rules.
>fixing points would be so much more easier for them
This is so painfully effective there's no way in hell they didn't consider this.
Subsidiary means that the company is mostly owned by another whil stoll being a different entity, FW and GW are part of the same company, Citadel miniatures, they are different studios in the same company.
By the same way they sold when cheap plastic indomitus suits were available. Why haven't they given Mk. 2 and 3 suits special rules to boost their sales compared to the cheap Mk. 4s?
>"Several different Terminator armour patterns were developed roughly concurrently by different Forge Worlds during the later decades of the Great Crusade, including the Indomitus, Tartaros and Saturnine patterns, most of which were functionally identical."
It all depends on HOW agile. I mean, the Mk. 2 is suppose to be more agile than later marks with their rigid plates, and Mk. 3 is suppose to be uncomfortably cumbersome, but offer the best protection, but they don't get any special rules.
I'd be fine with Tartaros being able to sweep if it came with a price. Say, remove Relentless (in exchange for speed they reduced the load carrying capabilities). Just making it objectively better than the alternative isn't exactly good writing.
But it's not rule associated with the suit, but the unit. And nothing stops you from giving those units any other mark. I doubt everyone's gonna be happy if someone starts using cataphractii as tartaros.
It evolved organically. Heck, in 2E it was the Ultramarines that got Plasma Blasters on their terminators (well, it was a Wargear card in their codex, all Imperials could use it), the Dark Angels had very little outstanding plasma weapons other than the occasional Plasma Cannon on a vehicle.
Legions were already jury rigging mark 4 with older mark bits
That by definition is what Mark 5 is
It's like how white scars shoved some weapon on a predator in place of its cannon and the mechanicus later on recognised it as stc and gave it a name - the scars didn't think oh let's make X variant as it didn't officially exist
Lol read your own post
You say that certain Mark 5 bits were unique then later on say Mark 5 reused older bits
Using Mark 3 or existing terminator helmets isn't using unique helmets
I seem to recall that the Space Wolves put lascannons all over their predators and the AdMech bellyached about it for a long period until they decided that it was correct. Naturally all the other Space Marine chapters decided to do the same before getting greenlight from the AdMech.
>That by definition is what Mark 5 is
Defined by who? Because I'd love to hear where it says Mk. 5 was a term given to a bunch of slapped together and repaired old suits after the fact, instead of a purpose designed suit at the time.
Anon, you need to learn to read.
They used components and technologies of existing pre-4 suits and put them into the new armour. Just because you make your car from components that are already made, doesn't mean you'll end up with an existing car.
Just freaking look at the Mk. 5. It's not any of the previous marks. It has different torso, legs, arms and helmet. The helmet is not a terminator helmet, it's an off-spin of it, using some of the systems but reworked into a PA helmet. The cabling might be from mk. 2 and 3, but it's applied differently because the armour is different. It's all in the text, if you bother reading it.
Learn to read yourself
Mark 4 was pretty new with a new Mark in development
But Mark 4 supllies dried up
So if a Mark 4 suit had a damaged helmet and you had run out of Mark 4 helmets you used what you had and any problems were solved with wiring etc as I quoted in
With the Mk 4 newly in service, the need for large amounts of Mk IV spares had not been anticipated, resulting in suits rapidly becoming unusable due to even quite minor battle damage. It was soon found that the new and rather specialised materials used in construction of the Mark 4, were generally unavailable locally, and this increasingly became a problem as Legions moved from
At most Mark 5 was an official way of how to use spares
Quoted from where?
In >>44833241 it's straight up said that the Mk. IV production ceased and a new suit was designed using as many pre-Mk. IV components as possible and the armoured plates were made from heavier materials than the Mk. IV.
Where does it say Mk. V is cheapo garage Mk. IV slapped together from damaged Mk. IV suits? If you're using a different armour plating with a different style, and as many pre-IV components as possible, how exactly is it a Mk. IV by any other name?
How was Mark 5 made?
They took Mark 4 and bits that were damaged were replaced with either older parts or in the case of helmets terminator ones
Anyway you're obviously some kind of autist who will actually say black is black is what and can't recognise his own hypocrisy or a troll or an Austrian so I'm ending this argument
I started making my own Zone Mortalis tiles for a 30k game board.
The first two rows are the official FW layout, the bottom row are some ideas to for new layouts. Each square is 1".
Any other layouts ideas?
I was thinking of that myself and came up with something like this,
basically like the trench in star wars that they swing across, it's impassable but open terrain, and you can shoot across it. the orange bit is a bridge and the red buttons are the control panels
If you're going for a ZM board then I'd definitely recommend making a frame and having all your tiles as 1x1 bits you slot in, means you can have extra tiles for scenarios and stuff
Most likely I will magnetize all the walls, so that everything can be packed/transported easily. But the wall positions will definitely be predetermined like the tiles; having played a few ZM matches turns out it's really easy to just knock stuff over since everyone's moving in those cramped spaces.
Tartaros is the best termie armor so this is to be expected.
Is a 5 man heavy support squad with missile launchers be any good? And by "good" I mean "not utter shit".
I believe the answer is yes, they're only marginally more expensive for a fair bit of gain. As for which weapon is superior, no idea. I imagine it matters little, as they're both "unwieldy".
List update (thanks for the advice everyone : 3)
ROW: The Dark Brethren
x6 Gal Vorbek
- x2 Chainswords Each (except sergeant)
- Melta Bombs
- Artificer Armour
- Power Maul
- Plasma Pistol
- Dark Channeling
- Melta Bombs
- Dark Channeling
- x1 Chainsword Each
x10 Tac Support
- Melta Bombs
- x10 Volkite Calivers
- Melta Bombs
- Drop Pod
- Dark Channeling
Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought
- Missile Launcher
- Icon of Chaos
x10 Pink Horrors
Again, Crimson Apostle goes with the x20 tacticals, Erebus goes with and faps with the Deamonettes, Blade Slaves are now the sergeant for the x20 Squad and the Dark Martyr for the Gal Vorbel, Lorgar goes with said Gals
Paint scheme idea for my potential Night Lords
Legion Tactical squads "In Midnight Clad", basic midnight blue and bronze. Maybe one or two marines with Sinner's Red hands per squad.
Terror Squads/Night Raptors all have Sinner's Red, as well as lots of blood effects. Might even use BFTBG for their red hands.
Veteran Tacticals/Atramentar get lightning effects, with an attempt at some creepy OSL.
Or let indomitus be the baseline terminator armour, have cataphractii be the extra protected, extra slow one and remove Relentless from tartaros and make it more like an extra tough artificer armour. Faster and more agile, but not as stable as a gun platform.
Yep. Cataphractii is the barrel shoulders, Indomitus is the common 40k version, and tartarus is the one with tiny shoulders.
Saturnine isnt described in anything recent but yes it is likely the IM A SPACESHIP version.
Here's Saturnine armor from a HH novel.
Erebus can't join the Daemonettes due to instability. Save yourself some points and take a regular Chaplain or Centurion instead. Buy some more Gal Vorbak with the points saved, I guess.
Well, they did improve the MK2 and MK3 by having a joint for the neck instead of all of them having stiff heads with the helmet crafted onto the chestplate. Maybe they could make it less bulky or something?
They're good. They just don't fill a needed role. Giving them plasmas makes them super expensive so every guy you lose hurts. Upgradign them for melee isn't bad, it's just most legions either have their own better melee unit or use termis.
Tartaros had rules like this before. Then they disappeared. Now they're back. You're fine. You could have been IF with SS/THH that can sweep.
Since Tartaros has no drawbacks it should be like AA and purchasable. While Cata is a swap.
Lose the Plasma Gun, they only want to be in assault. Add in another Maul, or Ligntning Claws and AA on the Martyr.
On the 20man Tactical, lose the maul and Plasma Pistol and add in a Power Fist
For the 10man Tactical, I'm not sure what the point of them is. 10 dudes can get killed really quickly, and Dark Channelling is mostly combat centric, and they can't combat well. Lose the Melta Bomb and Channeling, and add in some more guys instead. Or make them larger and CC focused.
Pink Horrors are more points than that...
As >>44860319 said, can't join due to Instability.
As we've said before, Erebus really isn't needed here, just use the model and call it a basic Chaplain.
Basic loadout could be: 105: Legion Centurion - Chaplain, Artificer Armour, Retractor Field, Crozius Arcanum - Power Sword
as >>44860540 said.
A Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with 2 Kheres Assault Cannons and Havok Launcher is 195pts. It also has Skyfire and Interceptor if it stays still.
It's 220pts for the same configuration without the aerial power for a normal Contemptor.
>Not wanting these glorious minis
They're the best non-tank AA you can get, and among the most efficient AA per point in general. Also, one of the better general units that cover anti-GEQ, anti-MEQ, anti-light vehicle, and AA. They're not good at anti-TEQ or anti-heavy vehicle though, and the versatility makes them expensive.
Depends what you want them to kill. Fists kill anything but are usually overkill for normal marine opponents in artificer/terminator armor. Axes can't do anything against all but the lightest vehicles and needs to be on models with a couple of attacks, but is much cheaper than a fist.
Normally you'd want a mix, just to save points.
Thing is the AA upgrade makes the squad very expensive, it gets more point efficient if you take a 10man squad but yeah... When you get to that point might just want to go all in and buy 8+a bunker with an ammo store. Btter if you've got Havocs instead, I guess, but Havocs are always better.