Is Chandra Nalaar a mary sue? Is Liliana Vess one as well?

No, they're both rationally thought out examples of what women with magic would be like.

If anything they should be shown having sex with the locals more often and being worshipped for their blatant displays of power.

The definition of Mary Sue has been so diluted it's disgusting.

>>44759103
/thread

Not any more than Jace "I'll just kill the invincible reality destroying monsters with an idea I came up with in a couple hours" Beleren.

>>44759103
What's the correct definition?

>>44759103

It doesn't even mean "character I don't like" anymore. It means "character some people on the internet said I shouldn't like".

Google search tells me these are characters from Wizard Poker. I personally find it weird how much fluff there is for this game, but I don't know anything about it at all so I won't comment.

I will go into what I think the term Mary Sue should be used for though. I prefer a conservative approach, but I don't like the "only applies to fan fiction characters" definition. I feel it unnecessarily limits a term that is pretty useful.

I personally use two qualifiers for a Mary Sue.

1)The Mary Sue is always right. As in, objective reality conforms to the character's perspective. All of her observations on the world are correct, even--often especially--if nobody else she meets agrees with her. She never makes mistakes, she is never a poor judge of character, she is never misguided beyond a superficial level.

2)All other characters exist for the benefit of the Mary Sue. Their personalities are defined by their relationship to her. The Villain is only the Villain because he seeks to hinder her. The Love Interest has no personality beyond being the object of her awkward, aww-so-quirky affection. The world literally revolves around her and everyone's motivations can be neatly sorted into either A) killing/capturing her or B) helping her.

Based on these qualifiers, other common standards--like skill, knowledge, power level, etc.--don't make a Mary Sue. That status is defined by both the plot and other characters bending over backwards for her.

>>44759309
So what you're saying is that Nissa is but Chandra and Liliana are safe

>>44759373
Nissa as she appeared in the original Zendikar block was nowhere near being a mary sue. I haven't been paying attention to Magic for a while, so I can't comment on what she's become.

>>44759309
Woah, this defines Rey pretty well

>>44759596
Looking at those two fields... Yeah she really does if you think about it.

>>44759660
Idk about the villain part... Any wouldn't the ball droid be the Mary sue, plot wise? Art least till the end?

>>44759706
Up until Ren meets Rey, sure, but after that he seems pretty focused on her rather than the droid.

>>44759309
>Based on these qualifiers, other common standards--like skill, knowledge, power level, etc.--don't make a Mary Sue.
Correct, being overpowered or getting handed artifacts left-and-right, etc, are only gateways into possibly becoming a Mary Sue, but are not indicators of a MS in and of themselves. They are most often an indicator of bad writing though.

>>44759309
You just described most protagonists.

>>44759882
Not well-written ones, or rather, not in well-written books. In a good book, the Villain is the Villain for totally unrelated reasons, and the Hero is the Hero because she wants to stop him/do a thing that works against him/etc; the Love Interest is his own character who the Hero happens to fall in love with; in short, the world exists outside of her.

>>44759175
This.

>>44759793
Given he seems to be one of the few people who know who she is it kind of makes sense. Hux thought Ren was being a real weenie for focusing so much on her.

I may be a minority on 4chan but I don't think she's a Mary Sue. She just has high power levels, which isn't exactly new to Star Wars protags. Anakin was far, far worse in that regard. And if /tg/ was around in 1977 we all would've hated Luke.

>>44760098
Luke in the movies failed at everything except blowing the death star, a that was a team effort

>>44760098
People tend to exaggerate what she did do and tone down her flaws.

>>44758903
Everyone is a Mary Sue, OP.

>>44760198
he was also a whiny bitch and most people didn't like him. I cant say anything about the new girl

>>44760198
Luke also had a much more sheltered upbringing. Rey's knowledge of flying, fighting, and languages make sense given where and how she grew up.

Also, after watching it a second time I realized they imply she knows about the Force. I won't lie, I was a little out off by how easy it came to her but it was still more restrained than winning the Daytona 500 when you're nine.

I would like to see her face a lot more adversity in VIII though

>>44760240
Also this. People here seem to forget she was a bitter social retard who couldn't use guns and couldn't comprehend the idea that someone cared about her

>>44759882
Indulge in fiction better than bottom-of-the-barrel-tier.

>>44760395
>she was a bitter social retard who couldn't use guns and couldn't comprehend the idea that someone cared about her
Like the average viewer?

>>44760240
This.

Also she was only kick ass against a guy who had been shot and just fought an other dude. Not to mention Kylo kept hitting the area where he was shot, causing more pain. He wasn't at his best at all.

>>44760895
Kylo also had her on the defensive for most of that fight. Plus he was mid tier even at his best. His crowning moment of martial prowess was when he and his neo-nazi friends shot up his school

File: muhsnowflakes.png (3MB, 1701x1669px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1701x1669px

>>44758903
Yes

File: 1401866117856.png (456KB, 900x600px) Image search: [Google]

456KB, 900x600px

A better question is why these two are a fan couple. There's literally no connection between them as far as I know.

>>44761148
Because /u/boaters are cancerous fucks.

>>44760098
She's not really a Mary Sue, but is kind of on that border, hopefully with some things taking her away from Suedom in the next movie.

>>44761148
Because Liliana will bang anything with a pulse. Maybe even without one. And I doubt she cares for consent.

>>44761176
You're right, Nahiri and Sorin are the superior ship anyways

>>44761314
And that mostly is because the force power use.

>>44761350
Lili actually prefers to bang things without pulses. Especially if they had a pulse before she found them.

Anyway, your ship a shit

>>44761314

I have a friend who I've been talking about this with. He was also concerned about Rey's power levels, expressing a hope she wouldn't wind up like a certain other female character with special powers that dominated pop culture a couple years ago.

I told him the best way they could make Rey a great character (not that I think she's a bad one) would be to give her her own heroic flaw. For Luke it was impatience. For Anakin, it was ostensibly frustration. For Rey it should be overconfidence. She spends some time training with Luke. This stuff comes easy for her. So she rushes off to face Ren, thinking he's a chump and she can end this now. But then when she gets to him, she realizes too late he didn't bring his A Game last time, and now he's got a lot more training under his belt. So he hacks her arm off because pottery. Bonus points if Luke has to come out of retirement to try to save her, not because "omg Rey is so speshuull" but because he'll be damned if he's gonna let his fuckwit nephew kill yet another student. Maybe he'll even job it, and Rey will have to deal with the fact her own impatience got her here.

Then we go into Episode IX having established a cold, bitter rivalry between these two characters. They've both gone through a transformation. Rey has learned to cool off, and now acts like RotJ Luke. And Ren has finally learned how to be a real badass like grandpa.

>>44761148
thats how shipping works

>>44761417
If it came to be over a longer time, it wouldn't nearly have been as big of thing as it is. The whole 'uses Mind Trick' thing was what most got all up in arms about. Meh.

>>44761519
>a certain other female character with special powers that dominated pop culture a couple years ago.
I'm retarded, care to fill me in here?

File: korra-about-web-desktop.jpg (44KB, 430x430px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 430x430px

>>44761638

>>44761687
Well, since she's obviously gonna end up with Finn and is therefore not a lesbian, we don't have to worry about that.

>>44761687

Wasn't part of the point of Legend of Korra that Korra was an extremely flawed avatar and needed to grow the fuck up and find balance in herself to try and bring balance to the world?

She also fails both the things used here >>44759309 if we're going to go by that metric. She's objectively wrong a number of times and most of her villains have goals only tangentially related to Korra's position as Avatar.

>>44761738
SURPRISE PHASMA SHIPPING

>>44761738

>implying Korra's bisexuality was the real problem with her character
>implying it wasn't the fact she had a score of people willing to die for her despite her being unlikable and confrontational
>implying it wasn't her never getting called on her pre-Season 3 bullshit
>implying it wasn't her incompetence.

The lesbian stuff was just an example of Bryan pushing a pet idea based on his personal politics. It wasn't very well done, but it certainly wasn't the worst part of the character.

Also, they've been casting a love interest for Finn for Episode VIII. I honestly think Rey will probably be pretty aromantic, much like Luke. Besides, even if she and Finn do hook up at the end, would that be a bad thing? They actually do have chemistry, though most of that largely comes from John Boyega being really likable.

>>44761796

What? No, how could you say that. Everything Korra did was portrayed as right and good by the show in every single context because the show was shitty and terrible and Korra was horrible and she never fucked up and everyone was obsessed with her for no reason and REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>44761860
It's called joking, anon. Learn to recognize it.

>>44761977
>>44761796

I don't think Korra was a Mary Sue. I think they were going for:
>an extremely flawed avatar and needed to grow the fuck up and find balance in herself to try and bring balance to the world

but didn't do it particularly well. The most jarring example I can think of was S2 where she barged into her boyfriends office and trashed the place because they didn't see eye to eye on politics, then ran off. And when she comes back, they never address any of that and they're completely okay despite her hissy fit and the fact he'd gotten back with (and promptly dumped) his ex.

She wasn't a Mary Sue, but she definitely wasn't well-written. I guess that's just what happens when you don't have a long term plan for the series.

>>44761519
>for Luke it was impatience

Strictly speaking, he went there because his friendship with Leia and Han were more important to him than Yoda and Obi-Wan's teachings.

This wasn't pointed out very well though, which is good - he was forced into making one bad decision or the other, but he did choose one of them, which characterised him.

>>44762058

Well, admittedly when she comes back she doesn't remember the incident and Mako's too chickenshit to spill it. At the end of the season they do face that, realize they're not right for each other at all, and break up permanently but remain friends.

I do feel like the show could've gone a lot better if it had been planned for four seasons, though, there was room for improvement everywhere.

>>44759596
I disagree, but instead of writing a lot of words about subjective interpretations of characters in a space wizard movie to try and make you agree I'm just, not going to.

Keep in mind that Korra was only meant to be the first 13 episodes. It was only after how well the first season was received that Nick asked for seasons 2-4 and they kinda had to wing it on the script and be a bit loose with plot holes.

Look at Moors and evaluate it only on the first season, THEN look at season 2-4 and see how it doesn't even stack up to season 1.

As for OP's question, neither are Mary Sues and have actual character traits and flaws, especially now that they've fleshed out Chandra and Lili's backstory a bit more.

>>44763116
>Look at Korra
Not sure where Moors came from, dumb autocorrect.

>>44761176
>chandere
>calling anyone else a cancerous fuck