If the Eldar are aware that the Galaxy is pretty much fucked, why don't they leave? Their craftworlds are self sufficient, and it's not like they need to interact much with outsiders.
IC Answer: The Eldar have unfinished Business, travel would leave the absolutely alone for tens of thousands of years, there's no webway to other galaxies, and this galaxy is their home. To run would be to admit defeat, and in all odds mean dying alone in obscurity. Besides, who says the rest of the universe is any better?
Warp is just artifact of the Milky Way, right? It doesn't exist outside of it, or if it does it is created by some other kind of fuckery.
Tyranids are not using it either, are they? How widespread are they anyway?
The Immaterium, as far as we're aware, is universally encompassing, otherwise there'd be virtually no way the Tyranids could've developed a telepathic communications array for their hive.
On the other hand, the Eldar do have an inherent connection to local Warpspace, and Craftworlds wouldn't be self-sufficient without any resources to take now and again (even if a good half of it is just processed Immaterial stuff).
Because writers need someone who can lose to the new cool threat/brilliant commander/whoever GW needs to sell right now and not be a mook race.
Eldar recognize the responsibility laid on them by GW - to be buttfucked by a current threat first, so threat can be seen as credible before Imperium / Chaos / Tau / whoever they need to sell utterly crush it.
>the Warp stops at the edge of the galaxy
Not really, the warp stops at the end of consciousness.
If the eldar move, their metaphorical and literal daemons move with them.
Moving away may also be discouraged by the ships not actually being self sufficient as I assume the craftworlds would still need to acquire their energy from somewhere, unless they can break thermodynamics, and because I'm not even sure the webway spans outside the galaxy, meaning that, first of all, they would lose their FTL travel and, secondly, their most important strategic asset.
They may also be arrogant, desperate and optimistic enough to believe they can fix things.
Correction, the Warp is influenced by the souls and thoughts of soul-bearing, sentient beings. The term Warp and term Immaterium are interchangeable, with the former occasionally suggesting Chaotic influence. The Immaterium, on the other hand, is undoubtedly universal, or at least without evidence to suggest otherwise.
Maybe because, deep down, even in spite of everything, they can't bring themselves to let the other races face the great enemy alone?
Or maybe because they know on some level that leaving would be basically conceding the fight to their enemies, and they cannot allow that.
Have you never read any of the fluff? It's quite clearly said that the warp exists everywhere, but the reason warp travel is pointless between galaxies is that the "tides" on which the spaceships move in the warp are created by the souls of living things. Thus after you've left even the Halo Worlds etc. behind, it becomes completely calm and travel is slowed down to basically nothing since there are no tides or currents to travel on.
In other words, the warp is bound by space, real space.
I am not the one saying the warp isn't universal, just that it isn't independent from the real universe. Despite what the fluff says, that's what the fluff actually show.
The Warp dimension does not depend of Real Space for its existence. It's a just a dimension of energy that reflects what's going on in reality.
Look at yourself in the mirror. Does the mirror cease to exist once you walk away from it?
It's neven just a mirror since the warp entities can and do have an effect on both the warp and real space, it's just the warp travel part that is completely reliant on the reflections of real space (although yes if all life were to be extinguished then the warp entities would be as well)
>although yes if all life were to be extinguished then the warp entities would be as well
No, the entities of the Warp transcend time. If life is extinguished in Real Space, whatever in the Warp will endure.
>Maybe because, deep down, even in spite of everything, they can't bring themselves to let the other races face the great enemy alone?
I'm sure the Eldar would happily shove all the other races down Khorne's butthole if it gave them their empire back.
They believe Ynnead will rebirth their species. The sous of the Eldar and the essences of their gods have not been destroyed.
Slaanesh keeps them prisoner in his belly and tortures them. If Slaanesh is destroyed, then the souls of the Eldar and their gods will be free.
>The warp is made up of the souls and thoughts of living beings
No it's not. It was influenced by them, but is not composed of them. Rather, souls are composed of warp energies.
>ceases to exist in the vastness of space between galaxies where such things do not exist.
Nope. There's not much life between stars either, yet the Warp certainly exists there too.
>If that was actually the case, we would be playing Continuum, the wargame.
I don't see why.
>The warp is shown to be bounded by time and space, whatever may be said.
Nope. We've seen people go backwards and forwards in time, the results of events taking place before the event occurs and moving instantly from place to place. The Warp doesn't care.
>tfw farsight beats an avatar 1v1
Travelling through the warp from real space point A to real space point B take an amount of time that depend on real space distance between point A and B. It's not the only factor, their is variance, and sometime shit happens, but real space distance matters.
More generally, what happens in the warp is influenced by real space. You agree with me actually.
I'm not saying that the warp depend on real space for its very existence, just that >>44729112 is wrong.
>No, the entities of the Warp transcend time.
It cant. If that was the case, they would be playing continuum with mortals. You can't have an universe being linked and influenced by a timeless dimension without time being meaningless in real universe too.
Before the Eldar fucked up the warp with their galactic orgies they used to reincarnate through the peaceful immaterium. Maybe they're anticipating something like that since Slaanesh will be gone again.
Uh... How is that going to work? Most of their former worlds are in the Eye of Terror now. Hostile factions control the rest of the Galaxy. Where exactly do they figure they can reincarnate? How many do they want to save anyway? All the Craftworlders who died since the Fall? All the Eldar who died in the fall? Billions? Trillions?
idk, the fluff was never too specific about the method. My personal theory is that new eldar souls only come into existence very rarely due to their comparatively refined psyche, this contributes largely to the Eldar's low birthrate. Without the dead's souls returning to be born in a new body the eldar can no longer keep a positive birth/death ratio. With the destruction of Slaanesh the souls of dead eldar will once again be able to reincarnate, leading to less failed pregnancies due to more available souls to take residence in the potential newborns
Which equals a reborn eldar race as their population, when combined with the excellent defensive capabilities of the craftworlds will begin to increase rapidly. Who knows, maybe their gods will come back too (although they were rumoured to be Psychic war machines created by the Old Ones, so i don't hold mch hope for a psychic construct coming back)
The warp is loosely bound by space-time, otherwise time travel across aeons would be a regular occurrence. You can tell it is bound by the fact that chaos rituals often need to occur at certain times and location, when/where the veil is thin
Even if they were psychic war machines initially, they grew into full warp gods when the Eldar worshiped them. No reason they can't come back from that.
I wonder if there would still be dark Eldar, or if they would repent, or more likely be destroyed by their cousins for being contributing factors to their races decline.
>they believe this galaxy should be theirs once again
>Warp travel might be impossible or just really slow outside of the galaxy
>it's possible that Chaos and Tyranids would follow them
>they know fuck all about other galaxies
They cant, they have never been shown to have the tech to leave the galaxy and travel to another one.
The warp seems to be universal, but only where there is life is it all active, outside it becomes calm and quiet and is pretty much impossible to travel through.
Tyranids in the old old fluff apparently have been around since the start of the universe and have consumed thousands of galaxies. more recent fluff is vague about it
>Tfw when tyranids are known being close combat monsters
>The oldest most legendary tyranid comes forth
>Millions if not billions of years of combat experience
>4 arms, each with ancient unidentifiable instant kill alien crsytals crackling with psychic power
>Tau who are known to not be great at CC
>Farsight beats him
Farsight is a sleeping Demigod at this point close to full-apotheosis at this point.
How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?
> You can't have an universe being linked and influenced by a timeless dimension without time being meaningless in real universe too.
Turns out, once you have magic, you don't need linear causality, and mortals are rubes. That's part of 40k's deal, the warp gods tricked us into feeding and serving them forever.
Do we even have any indea how respawning actually works in 40k?
There is this cunt, but this is more about Slaanesh preserving his soul and then stuffing it in a suitable host to allow Lucius to posses the body like a Daemon.
Then we have Perpetuals, but we don't know how they work. They always get their body and complete memory back, but it's not explained how.
For the Eldar, shamans and the Emperor we know fuck all. Did they literally respawn, or were they reincarnated through childbirth? Furthermore, could normal humans respawn once they achieve their psychic potential?
But the 40k universe need causality, at least the real part of it. How do you maintain causality in only one side of a coin?
I'm pretty sure the shamans respawned by reincarnations. Quite old fluff though.
Still, warp travel works in universe. You usually get to your destination in a delay that is most commonly positive and more or less proportionate to real distances.
The way I see it is that the... "general flow" of the warp is "parallel" to real time. In other a ship going into the warp can reasonably expect to go out of the warp after its entrance. Even if you can stumble into a nasty rip current that send you wherever and whenever, the general trend is going from past to future.
If that makes any sense.
Personally I think the whole nids are from another galaxy is silly.
They should instead be migratory locusts that have come about. In this galaxy; the milky way should be the Centre of attention.
As like you say that is just a stupid outcome...
It mostly makes sense. Its just that the warp isn't consistent, and has some generalizable outlines but they don't apply evenly or in all cases. Shit's not equivalent, or even balanceable. Its unreality, so does not necessarily correspond to reality.
>Swarm lord is the Tyranid Avatar
And Avatars are just Eldar Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes.
>The warp is shown to be bounded by time and space
>it isn't independent from the real universe.
>Travelling through the warp from real space point A to real space point B take an amount of time that depend on real space distance between point A and B.
The Warp is a psychic realm. This means it is influenced by mortal thoughts, and a mortal's experience of the warp is influenced by their thoughts. If your crew expects your warp passage to be long and arduous, then it will be. If they expect it to be swift, then it will be that instead.
This is why passage through the warp is so variable. You can travel tens of thousands of light-years in a few months if you follow "well established warp routes", or you can spend years traveling a few thousand light-years into "wilderness space".
The warp is not bounded by time and space, but the human mind is bounded by duration and distance. The only limits in warp travel are conceptual.
The first time lucius died to that rave guard the guy didn't feel anything about killing him
Lucius just appeared somewhere near Fabius
So even if all those weird ways to kill lucius worked slaanesh would still rebirth him
Just imagine how convenient and reliable warp travel would be if 40K wasn't a crap-sack galaxy. Warp jumps were probably quick and easy during the Dark Age of Technology, just because the crew weren't constantly terrified and brutalized.
I don't think that it has ever been explained how eldar craftworlds are sustained. The energy must come from somewhere.
If they need solar energy, then they would have to remain in the galaxy because they need stars.
If they get the energy from the warp somehow it might be possible, depending if the calm warp outside the galaxy is suitable for harvesting energy.
However, even if it is possible for the eldar to go to other galaxies, they would still have to travel for very long. This is true even if they were able to utilize warp jumps outside the galaxy. Without a beacon, they would have to make small jumps into uncharted territory. As the webway ends at the edge of the galaxy, it would be unusable.
Then there is also the problem that the eldar don't know how the other galaxies are faring. They might be worse for all they know.
Of course, it is possible that some craftworlds have attempted to go to another galaxy. However, these "lost" craftworlds wouldn't be relevant to the wars in WH40k, so they might not be mentioned.
In the path ofthe Eldar books they deploy suns ails as they orbit a sun for decades; soaking up enough energy. To move on to the next part of their journey through the stars.
Also each craft world has fuck huge and smaller webway gates, so if a craft world managed to make it to a friendlier galaxy then the webway, would now connect the two galaxies and it would be easy to transport the entire Eldar population; though the craft world's that they came from would still be in the milkyway...
Craft world's also don't travel through the warp or at relativistic speeds; being sub light moons or planets for all intents and purposes; so any of these silly warp arguments wouldn't matter as they don't use it for travel.
In my mind the webway isn't a static this but is more like series of interconnected rubber band tunes per se a mish mash of twisting paths between planes as such as long as the webway connects two gates there will be a path between the two ( wrath spiders extending it as the two craft world's / maiden world's move apart) otherwise the webway wouldn't work as the bodies that are connected to it are constantly in motion.
I agree with you that any that have left are likely to now be lost craft world's mainly due to their disappearance from the story..
Because the only reason the Craftworld Eldar even survived Slaanesh's birth is that they were the most hyper-traditional, dogmatic, puritan fanatics of self-discipline and self-denial that the Eldar had to offer. Most of the more pragmatic/liberal-thinking eldar probably wound up either in Commorragh or on an Exodite world.
Do you think a bunker-dwelling megachurch millitia would abandon their [insert flyover state USA] because they were hopelessly outnumbered and stood no chance of overcoming an invading force? And a force of monkeys that have convinced themselves that they have evolved into something equal to their divinely inspired form no less. Do you think having oracle-priests who knew for a fact that they were going to lose and therefore martyr themselves would make a lick of difference?
The maiden world incident:
>876.M39 Mistaken Identity
>War is declared upon the cruel raiders victimizing the new colonies of Ke’lshan. Believing they have tracked their foes down, the Tau instead destroy the Eldar maiden world of Lilarsus. Future relationships continue to be strained.
- 6th edition Codex: Tau Empire
>876.M39 Vengeance for Lilarsus
>The maiden world of Lilarsus is destroyed by expansionist Tau forces. This provokes a bloody response from Iyanden, and the Ke’lshan sept colony of Ka’mais is reduced to rubble during the reprisals. The Tau counter-attack, though slow to mobilise, is determined and well-coordinated, and the aliens recover the wreckage of several Wraithguard as the Eldar withdraw. Earth caste scientists are fascinated by their prizes, thinking them to be more sophisticated version of their own battlesuits. However, the secrets of psycho-conductive wraithbone prove to lie far beyond the Tau’s clumsy grasp, and the wreckage is soon recovered when the Eldar return in force.
>Despite the innate superiority of the Eldar, the Tau prove themselves incredibly tenacious, and the conflict continues for several weeks, until both sides discover that actions are being manipulated by the Dark Eldar Archon Andross Klax. The Eldar of Iyanden disengage, and the Tau extend the hand of friendship, hoping to learn the technological secrets of their recent foes. The Council of Iyanden icily ignore the primitives’ offer and bend their efforts towards making Klax pay for the unnecessary carnage he has caused.
- Iyanden codex supplement
The warp is actually multiversal, it is infinite in scope and across time, and connects to many universes, although these are more pocket daemon universes than something like our own universe which may itself be infinite in scope (because our sight is limited by time).
But generally if the Eldar tried to flee, the daemons would only follow them. There is no escape from Chaos, not even death will save you.
Tyranid fleets are invading the Galaxy through multiple fronts. This implies they either circled around the Milky Way or they were converging from others Galaxies. There might not be life outside of the Eldar's Galaxy, least none they want to risk dealing with.
>There might not be life outside of the Eldar's Galaxy
The Silent King found other horrific and hostile lifeforms in the void between galaxies other than the Tyranids.
So I doubt it.
>And a force of monkeys that have convinced themselves that they have evolved into something equal to their divinely inspired form no less
well once niggers move in whites tend to move out so checkmate
there is Naive and then there is just plain dumb, on some level you stop giving a shit if it was an accident, that they have the gall to try and make nice after that is actually more insulting, the leader in charge of this one really botched it up, because this is a case where even a reasonable foe is going to be in unreasonable moods
The warp doesn't stop, but travel through the warp involves riding "currents". Since the Warp is agitated by life and emotions which create the currents, past the edge of the Galaxy it is "dead" as in Doldrums at sea. There are no currents to ride.
That, plus the Webway.
So I mean there could be Eldar traveling outside the Galaxy by other conventional space drives much like the Tyranids & Necrons use but they would be out of contact with the rest of them.
>Long have we known of the Devourer. While the majority of the necron race slept away the aeons, his great majesty Szarekh, the Silent King, journeyed far and wide beyond the borders of this galaxy. Such unspeakable things did he witness as cannot be adequately articulated in our noble language, nor any other.
>The most dire of all these extragalactic enemies were the tyranids.
>For countless cycles he has sought to repel this threat. In his wisdom he has observed them, studied them and committed them to oblivion in all but the final, decisive deed. He has brought them to battle on a hundred worlds, ravaged their slumbering fleets out in the cold, measureless void, and even united the more fractious, warring dynasties so that our mutual interests might be protected.
-From "Word of the Silent King"
Only that they so horrific that Necrontyr language cannot describe them. They are not as threatening as the Tyranids though.
Both Tau and Eldar were fooled by the Dark Eldar. The Eldar know how evil and deceptive the Dark Eldar are, being victims of their treachery from time to time.
The Tau just wanted to make the best of a bad situation. The relations with Iyanden might have grown cold but at least Ulthwe and Alaitoc are friendly with the Tau.
Yes, the gentrified, cosmopolitan whites tend to move out... i.e. the ones that were either destroyed by the birth of Slaanesh, or who DID move out to the big city (i.e. Commorragh.)
The Craftworld elder are that special breed of crazy bible-belt redneck survivalists that respond by setting up self-sustaining bunkers, devoting the menfolk to the nonstop mastery of the art of war, and rallying around prophecy-spouting demagogues who promise that eventually they'll take their homeland back if they steer the impossibly long but perpetually "about to come to fruition" course.
Does that not perfectly describe the Eldar? It's just that their society was so utopian that even their version Jonestown/Yallqueda chucklefucks seem like gracefully elegant and impossibly advanced space elves when compared to Humans.
I >>44743557 Forgot Pic-Related
Correct me if I'm wrong but they ARE. There's a lot snippet somewhere that mentions systems near the galactic edge losing their sun's as Craftworlds consume them, presumably to fuel an escape
Still better to have only Slaanesh to deal with than having the rest of the chaos gods, the imperial and the other factions as well.
Though the problem is traveling to other galaxies as well as potential enemies in the other galaxies that are unknown.
>Each galaxy has its own Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle (since they are constants of nature in some way or another)
>All galactic chaos gods are fragments of the universal chaos gods
>Grey Knights manage to kill them.
The fluff is always either noncommittal, or contradictory on this point.
There are many emotional constants that could hold sway in our galaxy, or another galaxy. Furthermore, you're only looking at this from the perspctive/cetegorization of a sapient being. What about a galaxy with warp-active, but non-sapient beings, where the dominant drive is simply the need to eat, survive, and breed.... like some kind of .... Great Devourer. After it devoured its own galaxy, it would by its own nature need to find new galaxies to eat; first eating the warp active beings of that galaxy, but ultimately starving and devouring the warp-stuff of whatever warp-beings dominate its new hunting-ground.
one of many, but the chaos gods do not exist in the original literal sense of "to be, without" but are rather reshaped concepts: they look and act differently depending on mental PoV you perceive reality with; they may look the same or be completely unrecognizable but they would still be the same beings as substances of the warp.
grimdark and marketing self-referring leads to them being exactly the same in all the depictions we have despite the original material indicating the phenomena above.
They may or may not have existed, but the warp itself became more dangerous when old ones started to weaponize it. Could be the warp used to be order aligned, but in weaponizing it the old ones made it shift towards chaos.
By heading him more souls.
Iyanananana~ is going throw the souls of the Iyanden Eldar into Iyanden's Infinity Circuit.
Also the Nemese Dark Eldar faction is plotting to genocide all Eldar to hasten the arrival of Ynnead.
>Source - The Biel-Tan entry in the main codex.
Which codex? 7th ED? 6th ED?
>But don't they all have to die to power up Ynnead in the first place?
No. Not according to the Iyanden Codex and Valedor. The infinity circuit just needs to reach a certain point and a ritual needs to be perfomed with artifacts called the 'Tears of Morai Hegg, of which only one more remains to be found.
Even if they did all die, it doesn't matter when the whole shitck is about rebirth.
A reminder that these guys are saving the galaxy on a regular basis.
A reminder that they are dooming the galaxy by standing in the the way of the Last Hope of the Eldar.
Combine that with some heavy guerrilla tendencies.
Man, it's been a while seen I've seen vintage Carnac.
Nah, you're confusing the Craftworlds with Exodites. They're the ones that were screaming DOOOOOOM well before anyone else and are so puritanical they became Amish. Craftworlders are more like the guys that partied hard during the 90's, did a lot of E, but then chose the Trainspotting way out. Dark Eldar never grew up and refuse to come out of their basement.
That problem can be solved so easily.
Nah, Nazis already had an established territory, that they merely sought to expand. Whereas the CWE really don't have any regions that they can claim to really own, but Biel Tan seeks to establish one, just like ISIS.
>Nah, Nazis already had an established territory, that they merely sought to expand.
That's exactly what Biel-Tan do. The established territory are the Maiden Worlds, seeded since before The Fall. And now they aggressively seek reclamation of those that have been lost and expanding their colony. Combine that with a belief in their superiority and disdain for inferior races and you have plain ol' Nazis.
Yeah, but Biel Tan doesn't really hold those maiden worlds, despite their claims. The CWE are in general, too few in number to hold on to any territory. The best they can do, is to come to the aid of maiden worlds if they fall under attack.
Ynnead has actually been described as already existing in a dormant, growing state for a pretty long time. Possibly even always.
Time is a bit fluid and convoluted in the warp. Wiggle room exists, but thats all it is: wiggle room.
Ripples of what would soon be Slaneesh existed before the Eldar actually gave birth to She Who Thirsts, but there were not always four Chaos gods. In fact, there is a clear division in the timeline between when there were no chaos gods at all and when the Chaos gods began to form. The Warp used to be calm, and now it is not.
This means that the Chaos gods are shackled by chains called 'before' and 'after', manifestations of the existence of Time. Linear causality.
If the warp was truly unbound by time, then this would not be the case. They would have existed an infinite amount of time prior to their birth, because causality means nothing to them.
The only ones that claim that the chaos gods have existed since the beginning of time are the Chaos gods themselves, who are also the ones that claim they are infinitely powerful when that is also clearly not the case.
Maybe, just maybe, the guys who are literally running cults of manipulation and exploitation for their personal benefit are lying about how powerful and important they are.
CWE numbers are probably enough to hold a few worlds. The problem is that there is no reason for them to leave their craftworlds. If they colonize worlds with their current numbers, they are asking for the other factions to attack them. Not to mention that the eldar would have to abandon some of their operations against chaos and the necrons and shift their resources to building cities in their worlds.
With craftworlds they can travel wherever they want, without being confined to a few planets and are less vulnerable.
>Biel-Tan don't defend Maiden Worlds
Nigga... Have you read ANY Eldar fluff nevermind Biel-Tan fluff? Even regular craftworlds aid Exodites when they're under attack. Biel-Tan and Saim Hann are particularly famous for it.
>rest of the universe is already conquered by orks
>they regularly have supercluster-sized thunderdomes
>only the milky way is not ork controlled
>the tyranids are just some squiggs which evolved and ran away.
True, but the amount of worlds they can claim to "hold" is very low.
Reading comprehension m8.
I never said that they don't defend those worlds. I said that they can't truly claim to HOLD them.
They come to the aid of those worlds when they fall under attack, but that's it. Maiden worlds are more akin to small outposts the CWE eldar defend, not true territories the Eldar can claim to own.
>I said that they can't truly claim to HOLD them.
What distinction are you even trying to make? They hold worlds in their colony and they defend those worlds. That's the end of it.
>not true territories the Eldar can claim to own.
So despite having Eldar actively living on them and defending them with warp tunnels connecting them directly to craftworlds that defend them as a full time occupation, they don't count as Eldar territory? By what logical gymnastics does a craftworld described as 'fiercely territorial' not possess territory?
There are at least 3 sources, the most recent being the 4th edition Ork codex - pic related - though it's almost never remembered correctly. Techpriests sent out a probe from Terra 14,000 years ago, many signals are identified as Orkish, and that's pretty much it, interpret as you will.
>Ynnead may be born in a hundred generations
Too bad the Eldar only have days.
The Maiden worlds hold minuscule populations, and would not survive without their Craftworld's continued patronage. They also need aid from the Craftworld the moment anything threatens them.
Compare this to the Imperium, whose worlds tend to be basically fortresses, and house billions of people (and way, way more, in the case of Hive Worlds), and they can even hold their own against minor threats.
So by the standards of the setting, the Eldar do not really hold any real territory. Even the Tau have more securely held territory, than the Eldar do.
>Trying to shift goalposts by making it relative to the Imperium when no one even mentioned them
Biel-Tan hold planets and defend planets within their colony. I have established this as such despite your initial claim that "Biel Tan doesn't really hold those maiden worlds, despite their claims". This was the context of the argument and it's been settled and it's as wrong as saying Tau don't really hold worlds because they only have them in the hundreds.
Okay, so that is what got fanwanked into ork being in other galaxies?
Because nothing in that fluff says that. It just says that there are orks wherever the probe is, which if it was launched by any non-FTL method would leave it stuck in our galaxy, and if it was sent by a FTL method there is no way the Imperium could still be hearing back from it since the only FTL communications the IoM has are psyker communication, and there is no psyker on the probe. Indeed, psykers would not have existed at the time that the probe was launched.
This whole "argument" started in the context of Biel Tan being stated to be the Eldar ISIS. The comparison to Nazis was made, and disputed, due to the fact that the territory the Biel Tan "holds" is freaking insignificant, unlike that of the Nazis was.
Be'lakor the First Daemon Prince is speculated to be millions of years old. He has memories of the First Necrontyr Tomb World and the first homeworlds of the Eldar.
Also he predates Slaanesh by thousands of years and yet Slaanesh was present to elevate him to daemonhood.
The existence of Be'lakor proves that Chaos cares not for time.
> Humanity has colonized only a miniscule number of worlds inside of its borders, and would not survive without the Imperiums continued patronage. They also need aid from the Space Marines the moment anything threatens them.
> Compare this to the Craftworlds, which tend to be basically fortresses, and house billions of people (and way, way more, in the case of larger Craftworlds), and they can even run away from things they know they cannot outfight without losing anything in the process.
Be'lakor, by right of being the FIRST anything, explicitly requires chaos to be bound by the concepts of time to be important at all. Without 'caring about time', nothing happens before anything else, so you cannot be the first to do anything.
Indeed, if demons existed beyond the hold of time the fact that he was so old as to remember that shit wouldn't even be special, because "old" would mean nothing.
So yeah, nah.
Nazis expanded and held ground based on a sense of racial superiority and birth right. Biel-Tan do the exact same. That's a true and supportable statement.
Your claim that this is insignificant is not only irrelevant as it was a comparison of ideology, not numbers, but it is an unsupported claim as you give no evidence to suggest Biel-Tan's gains are "insignificant". The Tau Empire is a significant part of 40k despite consisting of hundreds rather than thousands of worlds and Eldar craftworlds are known to have colonies in the hundreds also. Codex Iyanden even goes as far as to say that their alliance with Biel-Tan is the reason Chaos has never held any ground on the easter rim. Is the entire eastern rim insignifcant?
So even your new argument is wrong. And your comparison with Isis is crap, because Biel-Tan are not driven by religious indoctrination and don't recruit from other races. Nor do they use Guerrilla warfare like Isis, instead they favour all out assault seeking the complete eradication of the enemy. Bazhakhain may as well be Eldar for Blitzkreig. So that's three ways you are completely fucking wrong.
If it's Isis Eldar you want, Alaitoc are the better fit. Whilst not specifically religious, they are supposed to the most fanatical to the Path system which is as close to a relgion the Eldar have. They also fight Guerrilla warfare style with rangers and have a campaign of vengeance against the Imperium.
chaos was never "ordered", always had a certain impossibility in it, something that breaks beyond mundane rules, it was just calmer and more aligned to the best sides of the emotions like creativity, energy, joy and acceptance like what a growing and thriving galaxy of life would emit I'd bet, the old slann actively exploring it and psychic races like the eldar able to live peacefully and reincarnating trough it, then the war started by the necrontyr led to the grimdarkification of everything by the deaths and suffering of the many races created by the old ones bred to be more tied to the warp: the conflict being fought with both weapons to rend reality and to use the other realm's energies, along the negative emotions, made the veil between realspace and immaterium slimmer and the content of this last one rotten.
Fucking thanks, necrontyrs.
Not really. Negative emotions have always existed in the warp, its just that before everything got fucked up they were not the overwhelming majority. So demons have existed for as long as life has, its just that they used to be much rarer/less powerful than they are now because they were just a small part of a larger immaterial ecosystem.
It wouldnt make sense for the warp to go from 0% chaos to 100% chaos all at once, like flipping a switch. It would have been a gradual process. Before Khorne fully manifested, a bunch of lesser demons of bloodlust and rage and war would have begun to appear, and grow stronger, until eventually the individual raindrops turned into the storm that was Khorne the blood god.
Really, the fact that at every step of the timeline we have for the growth and development of the warp is tied to equivalent points in time of the physical world, and the events of the physical world and the warp are in synch more often than not, means that the warp is bound by time roughly 90-95% percent of the time. Its just how shit works.
There have been more primarchs than there have been times that the 'weird way time works in the warp' has meant anything, but you would still call me a retard for claiming that all space marines are primarchs.
Come to think of it when the wrap is calmish its faster or at least more consistent I wonder how calm it has to get before you start to slow down and how wild before it starts to become less reliable
Wasent that the sort of sweat spot they had during the great crusade
Since it hasn't been adequately explained...
... The Eldar Craftworlds each have an Infinity Circuit.
Basically, they hope that one day, there will be enough Eldar dead in the Infinity Circuits to destroy Slaanesh. Either as a united psychic remnant of a doomed race, or the birth of a new god.
The Eldar are pretty fucking metal, and crazy as hell.
The imperium is weird in that the only end-game plan I've heard for them is the Star-God thing where the Emperor is supposed to be reborn as a God, but most stuff outright contradicts that by saying Emps dying results in DAEMONS EVERYWHERE.
I think it was said somewhere that there might be Orks in other galaxies. But I can't remember if it was a particular character saying that or if it was simply a random sentence meant to serve as a cool conclusion conclusion for some bit of fluff.
Anyway it's probably wrong since Orks, Men and Eldar were all created by the Old Ones in the milky way.
If the Imperium survives long enough, or the Omnicopaei STC works, humanity will become incorruptible super psykers and the Emperor can allow himself to die.
If he dies before that, best case scenario is the majority of humans becoming Daemons and Terra errupting into a new Eye of Terror. Worat case scenario reality is destroyed and only Chaos remains
The Omnicopaei is in the running for the dumbest fucking thing that GW has ever tried to pass off as lore.
> STCs were sent with the original colony ships used to settle the galaxy and give rise to the human empire.
> Psykers only slowly began to appear towards the end of the DAOT, right before the iron men revolted, long after the need for STCs had fallen out of use because the human empire already existed.
> There is supposedly a STC for super duper super psykers called the Omnicopaei. Because the DAOT had that just written down somewhere and the Emperor who was totally alive and active during that time had no idea it existed, and humanity decided to store that information on a piece of hardware that would have, at that point, been thousands of years obsolete so that future generations who might just HAPPEN to come across it will have everything they need to solve a problem that DAOT era humankind never even knew was a thing.
> All the Imperium has to do is to travel deep into Mordor to get it, and Sauron will be defeated
If this doesn't turn out to be a Chaos plot, I swear to god...
The craftworlds were specifically socially restructured as a reactionary antitheses to the pleasure cults of the Eldar Empire, espousing the paths, which is basically puritan "life must be suffering" job devotion.
The Exodites are more like the suburbs. That's why they don't have an army book, because they so rarely fight, because they intentionally avoid conflict.
Personally, I think it's in the same boat as the Holy Grail, the Fountain of Youth, or El Dorado.
It doesn't exist. Gruss just thinks it does based on sketchy research and a lot of misplaced hope.
Exodites DID have rules back in the day and they still turn up to fight all the time in the fluff. It just usually involves dying or being rescued. Exodites are even more repressed to the point they don't even like using technology. Suburbs my ass. They've run so far away from the suburbs they're scared of electricity.
>If he dies before that, best case scenario is the majority of humans becoming Daemons and Terra errupting into a new Eye of Terror
Well, humans already survived the war against Iron Men and the Long Night - that shit cannot be much worse.
> Worst case scenario reality is destroyed and only Chaos remains
Quite impossible. Warp is the reflection of reality that is the reflection of the warp. One cannot exist without the other, Yin-Yang, all that shit.
40k is all about The Emperor/Imperium versus Chaos Gods/Heretics and there can be only one winner. Except if some other faction swoops in for the kill, but again the Emperor must still be alive and Chaos must be somehow weakened for that to reliably work.
>40k is all about The Emperor/Imperium versus Chaos Gods/Heretics
No it isn't. It's about warfare, which is the fundamental element to the nature of 40k universe (and to some degree - ours as well). There was no peace among the stars even millions of years before both Emperor and Chaos Gods came into existence. Surely, the interstellar battlefields won't quiet down even after
GW goes full Age of Sigmar on 40k andEmperor with Chaos Gods will be left behind as mere unconfirmed chapters of ancient history.
> there can be only one winner
There is CURRENTLY more than one winner. God Emperor has carved Himself the Imperium by which humanity perseveres. But meanwhile blood flows for the bloodgod, cries of despair are heard across planets and entire realms are falling to decadence and excess. Tzeentch wins AND loses at the same time in any scenario by default because either way he Changed the Ways for it to happen. Overall, both Imperium and Chaos Gods are rather well off.
I know, but I didn't include them because I only know the basics. I prefer the "there is only Chaos" because
I'm an Imperialfag and if we can't have it, then fuck everyone else too
But Chaos was never so powerful. If the Emperor dies and there is enough humans alive, there will be no future because Chaos itself will literally destroy reality. That's the fluff.
And it's about Chaos versus the Emperor because everything hinges on the outcome. Ynnead can't help the Eldar if the Emperor is slain and a new Eye of Terror is born with supercharged Slaanesh coming for their souls. Gork and Mork can't overpower the Chaos Gods if Abaddon genocides the Orks. Tyranids can't survive if the Emperor reborn severs the link to the Hive Mind and the average IG trooper is hurling around lighting bolts. Necrons can't activate their fancy technology and cut the Warp off if they cease to exist along with everything else.
Of course each faction can still win and do whatever they want to the galaxy, 40k has enough win conditions to go around. Well the Tau lack one, but they are insignificant anyway.
> If the Emperor dies and there is enough humans alive, there will be no future because Chaos itself will literally destroy reality. That's the fluff.
>And it's about Chaos versus the Emperor because everything hinges on the outcome
>It's about Old Ones versus Necrons because everything hinges on the outcome
>It's about Exodites versus Metropolitan Eldar because everything hinges on the outcome
>It's about men versus machines because everything hinges on the outcome
> Ynnead can't help the Eldar if the Emperor is slain and a new Eye of Terror is born with supercharged Slaanesh coming for their souls
So, CHAOS is somehow utterly predictable in what would be the outcome of Terra going down?
> Gork and Mork can't overpower the Chaos Gods if Abaddon genocides the Orks
They don't need to.
>Tyranids can't survive if the Emperor reborn severs the link to the Hive Mind and the average IG trooper is hurling around lighting bolts
>Necrons can't activate their fancy technology and cut the Warp off if they cease to exist along with everything else.
>Of course each faction can still win and do whatever they want to the galaxy
Not a single one ever managed to, not even Necrons when they bitchslaped the Old Ones. There is only war, which means that there cannot ever be a final victory for anyone.
>God Emperor has carved Himself the Imperium by which humanity perseveres
That's not a win. Especially when it ended up being the opposite of everything he intended and is on the brink of extinction.
>That's not a win
And what is? Conquering the entire universe and obliterating every possible threat to human existence? That was not even in the plan, for it is retarded.
>being the opposite of everything he intended
He intended for mankind to survive instead of dwindling into oblivion, and that much Imperium provides. Plus we've never actually been inside the Emperor's head and don't know events he planned for and what were indeed unexpected. For all we know - he could have planned for Heresy to happen to eventually put him into the place he holds now.
>on the brink of extinction
Imperium has been on the brink of extinction for the last 10000 years, what's with it constantly falling apart and gathering itself back together, so it's nothing new.
Yes, Chaos wants to fucking win. They do it by killing the Emperor.
Gork and Mork are pissed off because Orks are mucking about instead of conquering the galaxy. That's why Ghaz is working as their prophet and trying to unite all the Orks under his banner. Gork and Mork are still Warp beings and thus direct opponents to the Chaos Gods. Of course they want Chaos dead, only an endless WAAAGH in a galaxy populated only by Orks.
The Emperor is guiding humanity on it's path to psychic evolution. If the Great Crusade 2.0 will be compromised entirely of psykers that can't involuntarily fall to Chaos it's infinitely stronger. And the Emperor once bitchslapped the Hive Mind away, so it's safe to presume he would manage to overpower it if he will be fully alive again.
One of the Necron end goals is sealing off the Warp/Immaterium from the real space, cutting of Chaos.
Chaos only has to kill the Emperor to have a final victory. Tyranids and Necrons must just arrive in force and they will steamroll the galaxy, nothing can withstand them. Orks, Imperium and Eldar will have to work a little harder to steamroll the galaxy, but it can be done. So they all have a final victory and the means to achieve it. And quite soon at that. 45k will feature a single faction ruling the entire galaxy with little to no opposition, a galaxy devoid of all life and resources or no galaxy at all, only Chaos.
I wonder if anyone has bothered going to the nearby dwarf galaxies. There are some that are pretty close to the Milky Way.
In fact, Canis Major should be reachable with warp travel because it is in range of the Astronomican.
>Exodites are even more repressed to the point they don't even like using technology.
Then why is there all this fluff about Eldar who are so socially repressed Alaitoc fleeing to spend time among the Exodites when they can't take the repression anymore?
I don't think you can say that one is more repressed than the other, it's more than they repressed themselves differently.
I don't disagree but... what does it have to do with anything?
You gave me an idea for a fan-made eldar craftworld.
>Disappeared straight after the Fall.
>Other craftworlds believe that it was destroyed as a result of the Fall.
>In truth it fled the galaxy and eventually established itself in a relatively near inter-galactic star system, where it could colonize planets undisturbed.
>Began construction of a new webway, to be used for travel between some of the nearest stars systems.
>Currently have a nation with 6 star systems.
>Webway project is still continuing so that more systems can be reached and so that the webway can eventually reach the Milky Way. >Contact will be needed with Milky Way eldar before completion of the project, because daemons can hamper webway construction within the galaxy,
>Also each craft world has fuck huge and smaller webway gates, so if a craft world managed to make it to a friendlier galaxy then the webway, would now connect the two galaxies and it would be easy to transport the entire Eldar population; though the craft world's that they came from would still be in the milkyway...
What? Is this even possible? The webway has to stretch because portals move, but can it stretch an infinite amount or does it have some sort of limit?
Uhm... I hate to break it to ya, but that's fucking wrong. I'll have to download the Oldcron dex to double check, but they lost it during the War In Heaven(Ctan vs Old Ones.) Nightbringer went all slashhappy and put the fear of death into there race so hard they lost the ability to reincarnate.