>>44721187 He does kill innocents though, the whole scene where Sam lets him hear the thoughts of the other mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom.
At the beginning of the game he's chaotic evil that thinks he's lawful good. He's part of an extrajudicial organization that prides itself on stopping "bad" PMCs. Right before the Monsoon fight Sam is pretty much showing Raiden that we use ideologies as coping mechanisms, no matter who we're fighting in war it involves killing a lot of people who are in over their heads.
By the end of the game Raiden is still chaotic evil, he's just less delusional about it. Chaotic evil people can still have friends and function as normal human beings, they just tend to resist authority and have few scruples about hurting others
>>44721370 >He does kill innocents though, the whole scene where Sam lets him hear the thoughts of the other mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom. >He does kill innocents though, . . . mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom. >He does kill innocents though, . . . mercenaries. >He kills innocents though, . . . mercenaries. >He kills innocents mercenaries. >He kills mercenaries.
>>44721370 #notallcriminals Thats that whole punisher thing were he KNOWS he's killing daddies with wives and kids who are just selling drugs to keep their families fed. That doesn't mean thesd daddies in question are good. In fact irs very clear that they're selfish to a point and are willing to profit off of others suffering to keep a close few happy which is evil no matter how you slice it. Not saying raidens not evil but he's not as evil as you're portraying.
Towards the end, Raiden was was going on about how he was good for nothing but killing, and Snake told him otherwise, but to see salvation, he needed to stop, otherwise he would always be a "shadow". And Raiden found his salvation, he stopped fighting and raised a family.
>>44721625 >Towards the end, Raiden was was going on about how he was good for nothing but killing, and Snake told him otherwise, but to see salvation, he needed to stop, otherwise he would always be a "shadow". And Raiden found his salvation, he stopped fighting and raised a family. And then he started fighting again, and found out he /really/ fucking loves killing, and kept doing it, under the guise of a good cause.
Clearly chaotic, as he rejects orders/control in favor of independance, and favors the individual over the group
On the good-evil axis, it's complicated, but there are a couple of points to consider.
His objectives are Good: Save those that can still be saved, and minimize the damage. Stop those that would continue the war economy.
His actions are moderately evil. He enjoys combat and killing, and no longer resists it. However, he restricts that to a specific class, he's not cutting down innocent bystandards, or whatever the easiest kill is.
We also see that he accepts that he is willing to kill to save others from having to do so. Self sacrifice is normally considered moderately good.
We also have the outside observer benefit of knowing the intentions of "universe" that Raiden is objectively on the side of good.
He's borderline, but probably Chaotic Good, or possibly Chaotic Neutral not in the insane random sense, but in the individualist, and morally grey sense.
>>44721370 Negative on that, mundo. You can sign up with any of the dozen PMCs free floating after the war economy went down. Desperado is one of them profiting from creating violent scenarios. Anyone who works for them and doesn't do basic background checks might not be evil, but it's also not evil to cut them down.
Guns for hire are always valid targets - if you kill for a living you don't get to call someone killing you evil.
>>44722319 We can't always control what it is that produces endorphins for us when we do it. But we CAN choose to either not pursue those desires, or direct them towards a greater good. Raiden simply stops lying to himself about the fact that some part of him enjoyed the adrenaline rush and the challenge in battle. It's fucked up, he KNOWS it's fucked up, but he's not going to pretend he doesn't enjoy it anymore. Doesn't mean he won't keep pointing it in directions where he can do good. He's not necessarily GOOD, but enjoying a good scrap doesn't exactly make him evil either.
>>44722439 For the record, they were law enforcement. Yes, they were hired by Desperado, but their job was only supposed to be law enforcement (talking about only the cop guys, of course the rest probably knew the risks).
>>44724925 It's true neutral. You just don't give a damn about the forces of good or evil, or the lives of anyone that's not in your immediate circle (such as family). Neutral evil would at least want to hurt others, or take some measure of satisfaction from it.
>>44724956 A person who acts in their complete self interest without any care for anyone at all is Neutral Evil, I'm pretty sure Neutral Evil is outright described as "Will do anything for self interest, fuck if it hurts other people".
Just because Huey isn't the fucking Season Finale villain on Criminal Minds and eats babies because it makes his dick hard doesn't mean he's not evil.
>>44722221 Boss was the most lawful good, she fulfilled her duty as a soldier right to the end. Big Boss starts off lawful neutral as naked snake and begins to drift slowly towards chaos and towards good, until he's neutral good in peace walker. After ground zeroes it's questionable what exactly big boss is, probably chaotic neutral. Venom is definitely neutral evil though.
>>44725009 That may be how he wants to work, but thanks to shit writers we get times when he murders people for petty reasons, I.E. in that Christmas special Linkara reviewed where he killed a ex-Criminal who had no recent criminal record, was on his way to becoming a better person, and even helped Punisher take down a active crime boss the same day.
>>44725001 That is incorrect. You're simply off on the alignment qualification. Neutral evil will also hurt others, because to see another suffer brings joy to neutral evil. It's the opposite of neutral good, who will help others. True neutrals are in it for themselves and the people they immediately care for (like his son). They'll help or hurt others for this end.
>>44725100 I repeat, you don't need be a caricature to be evil, "Fuck you, got mine" is evil when it's take to the extent you outright murder people for daring to stop you from using your child as a weapons tester, or willing to fucking sell biological weapons the megalomaniacs who'll want to ethnically cleanse the world.
Being a selfish dickbag with no qualms of who your selfishness kills is evil.
>>44725155 Again, you're wrong. Read the stipulations of the neutral evil alignment. Selfishness is not evil, it's just a consideration for oneself. Being a dickbag is evil, but being a dickbag sometimes and a nice guy othertimes is neutral because that balances out. A farmer who kills another farmer because he's threatening his own livelihood isn't evil, just a neutral under stress.
>>44725193 >Murdering people for your own gain isn't evil! I really don't know what to say to this other then your world views clash way too much with my own to form anything resembling a dialogue about this topic.
I mean, I could call you retard and make myself feel better and follow the expectations set up by the Chans I suppose.
>>44721490 Wasn't the choice "Don't have a job and starve yourself and family" vs "Take this job we offer you, just ignore the fine-print about implanting you with a chip to shut down you're ability to act on fear."
>>44725264 Just because one performs some good actions doesn't mean they're not evil. Huey's not doing good because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because it benefits him, a Neutral Evil person will still do a good act if it benefits themselves, they're just also willing to do things that are evil to benefit themselves as well.
Yeah, Huey stopped Hot Coldman from starting a nuclear Apocalypse that'll kill human civilization as we know it, not because he cares for everyone on the planet, but because he lives in human civilization.
>>44725327 >a Neutral Evil person will still do a good act if it benefits themselves Actually, no. Neutral evil will go out of its way to hurts others even to its own detriment, the same way neutral good will go out of its way to help others even to its own detriment. Again, you don't understand alignments.
>>44725327 >Just because one performs some good actions doesn't mean they're not evil It does move them further from the evil line and closer to the neutral line, though. Taking out of alignment actions will result in alignment shifts.
Raiden follows a code of conduct, thus drawing him to the Lawful end of the spectrum, additionally his actions prior to the game (as a member of a PMC trying to stabalize an african nation) are also lawful in nature. One should note though, his jack the ripper persona however embodies chaos, by the end though that chaotic personality has been extinguished as he accepts his bloodlust rather than trying to rebel against it. In that respect Raiden is most likely Lawful
The ends of raiden's actions are meant to save others and provide protection, making him generally a good person, however in doing these actions he fuels his self serving enjoyment for killing others, thus drawing him towards evil, In that respect Raiden is likely Neutral
Raiden is a form of Lawful Neutral due to his dedication to a personal code of conduct and a desire to do good that conflicts somewhat with his personal desire for destruction and death.
>>44727671 Downtrodden peasants can be good OR evil. If he starts working for a firm that does evil shit, he's evil. If he works for a good firm, he's more likely to be good. If he works for a firm that does not have a stance on good or evil he is more likely to be neutral.
Simply being a downtrodden peasant does not set your alignment. A downtrodden peasant who fucks his young, resisting daughter because the wife died is still evil.
Chaotic Neutral, leaning towards good. He struggles with an emotion that most people have (albeit not to his extent), yet manages to keep his bloodlust focused on those who harm innocent and perpetuate war. I don't think there are many people in the world now who, if they had urges and background of Raiden (and by that I mean being a child soldier), would manage to maintain morality. They'd end up more like Sundowner
He more to lose than to gain by helping the little people, whereas any of the scumbags that he's fought against could've given him fortunes for his trouble. Fortunes, and as much people/soldiers to kill as he wanted.
Ayy lmao it's just a videogame. A weaboo video game at that, which means they deliberately give him cognitive dissonance and bi-polar breakouts since glorifying mental illness is all the rage in Japan.
No real person goes from "gotta save all the children" to "I WAS BORN TO KILL" back and forth in the span of hours.
>>44721469 You have no idea what you are talking about.
Firstly, there is no such thing as "evil no matter how you slice it". If evil exists, it is only as a subjective concept that varies entirely by individuals. You cannot say something is just evil.
Secondly, selfishness is not something to be condemned. Why should the fathers let the people they love die just to let some people they don't know live a better life? That's certainly not evil, although I concede it would not be argued that it is good under the alignment system.
Killing these people is just like killing any other human being. There is no such thing as a good or a bad person, just a person who does something you like or a person who does something you don't. If you go by alignments, then good people are those who work for the betterment of others, while bad people work for the detriment of others. Neutrals are people who work for their own betterment, or for the betterment of some at the expense of others.
>>44728537 Even if it were safe to have a picket fence life with the wife and kid, he could never stick around for it long enough. He's a killer, through and through. I doubt he'd want to pass that meme onto his kid, either. Nigga's just gonna have to be a fuckin' ronin 'til his cybernetics give out.
>>44729873 The "cops" say at the start of the level that he(as a military cyborg)is not authorized to operate in that area. Presumably, military class cyborgs either have to have limiters put in place when in civilian areas, or have to switch out(in the case of full body conversions like Raiden)their body for a less weaponized one.
>>44728271 >There is no such thing as a good or a bad person, just a person who does something you like or a person who does something you don't. Doesn't that create the same problems unkempt democracy does, AKA the minority is always evil, no matter what position they possess? I mean, if it's a matter of a vote.
>>44730982 Well, let me put it like this. If the minority wants to do something, and the majority wants to do another thing that isn't possible if the minority does that thing, then if the minority gets its way, the majority will be displeased, making the action 'evil' in general, right? So I don't see why trying to define good and evil by those markers has any worth. Or, try this. Let's assume everyone wants to sleep, but has to eat to not die, and doesn't want to die, but doesn't want to work, and you need to work to eat. Is refusing yourself or other people the ability to sleep so that they can work to eat and not die evil, or good in that instance? What are we going to be measuring, if we need to create a balance?
I wish revengeance would have been an interquel between 2 and 4. I liked the ending he had in 4, and felt like they threw him back into the blender for no other reason than to sell a cyborg ninja game which they could have done without raiden anyway
>>44722319 by this logic >all carnivores are evil >toxic plants are evil
This is why children shouldn't have a voice. There is no such thing as "evil" within existence. There's callous and cruel and selfish and a whole spectrum of shitty things to call something but as far as we know death is completely natural, by your hands or by nature's, and it's absolutely infantile to accuse somebody of "evil" just because you are on the wrong side of the violent nature of life for once.
>inb4 muh genocides and holocaust The scale of an act does not affect its morality in the slightest.
Raiden isn't evil because of the ripper, and was probably made better because of it being released. He still had a selfless cause that he worked toward without any promise of compensation, but he stopped hiding behind the "my sword is a tool of justice" facade.
>>44721415 >>44721469 >>44721515 >>44722439 Raiden'so in such a different league to these guys that it isn't a fight though, is it? They may as well stand still and do nothing while trying to fight him; he's pretty much murdering defenseless people everyone he fights.
Sure, SOME of them may have done bad shit but as we see from Blade Wolf, not everyone who works for Despardo ever had the choice, either because they'd be killed for defying others, watch their family starve or be memory wiped. It's really easy to say "these guys deserve it because they do bad shit" but unlike the Numerberg Trials, these schmucks didn't volunteer.
Raiden fighting these guys isn't two equal combatants against each other, it's cavemen against Spec Ops. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.
>>44722319 It's not like the people he killed were good people, they were hired guns. Sure, both raiden and his enemies aren't that different, as both kill tons of people, but raiden does it following his moral code, while his enemies were acting out of greed except sam and maybe armstrong, but that depends on if you belive that armstrong actually belived ehat je claims to . They thrived off of destruction and actively worked to cause more wars and such. Violence breeds violence, and they simply reaped what they sowed. Their dying is just the way it has to be.
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