What alignment is Raiden at the end of Metal Gear Rising after

Chaotic Neutral with Good leanings.

>>44720820

Enjoying killing doesn't make you automatically evil. See Punisher. Although he does have that Jack the Ripper persona...

He's also fairly lawful. He does do black ops stuff but he doesn't run around cutting down random innocent people.

>>44720820
Raiden encompasses all alignments, with the story of Metal Gear Rising being a story of his ascension to bodhisattva.

>>44720848
Well his ripper status is definitely chaotic evil

>>44720820
His alignment is Weeaboo Faggot.

>>44720820
He undertakes a quest to stop people from harvesting children brains for brainwashed soldier fodder, and discovers he likes his job.

He does not kill innocents. He engages with enemies who would be deployed in engagements that would harm others.

Overall he is still very much a good person. As he acts to whatever he sees fit, that feels very chaotic to me.

>>44721004
Yeah but that goes away after he comes to terms with his bloodlust.

>>44720820
Every time I realize that Raiden can't go home, I get bummed out.

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>>44721241
>Raiden can't go home
Raiden IS home.

>>44721187
He does kill innocents though, the whole scene where Sam lets him hear the thoughts of the other mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom.

At the beginning of the game he's chaotic evil that thinks he's lawful good. He's part of an extrajudicial organization that prides itself on stopping "bad" PMCs. Right before the Monsoon fight Sam is pretty much showing Raiden that we use ideologies as coping mechanisms, no matter who we're fighting in war it involves killing a lot of people who are in over their heads.

By the end of the game Raiden is still chaotic evil, he's just less delusional about it. Chaotic evil people can still have friends and function as normal human beings, they just tend to resist authority and have few scruples about hurting others

>>44721370
>He does kill innocents though, the whole scene where Sam lets him hear the thoughts of the other mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom.
>He does kill innocents though, . . . mercenaries shows that most of them are destitute men in essential serfdom.
>He does kill innocents though, . . . mercenaries.
>He kills innocents though, . . . mercenaries.
>He kills innocents mercenaries.
>He kills mercenaries.

i hoped this helps.

ill go with he's neutral good by the end

>>44721370
An interesting take. I like the hard stance you have on the nature of war.

>>44721415
Not even the same guy, but you totally just ignored the entire point of his post.

As much as Raiden has no choice but to be a killer, none of those men did either.

Raiden is just the best, so he gets to kill the dangerous people who hurt the less dangerous ones.

>>44721370
#notallcriminals
Thats that whole punisher thing were he KNOWS he's killing daddies with wives and kids who are just selling drugs to keep their families fed. That doesn't mean thesd daddies in question are good. In fact irs very clear that they're selfish to a point and are willing to profit off of others suffering to keep a close few happy which is evil no matter how you slice it. Not saying raidens not evil but he's not as evil as you're portraying.

>>44721454
So then chaotic neutral, right?

>>44721454
>has no choice but to be a killer, none of those men did either.

you always have a choice, anon.

having a shitty alternative is not an excuse.

>>44721479
Yes.

Raiden just does whatever he wants/is forced to and decides whether or not he agreed with it after the fact.

>>44720848
>See Punisher
Uh, Punisher is Lawful Neutral at best, more likely Lawful Evil.

>>44721494
Not at the end. At the end he was his own man. Picking his own targets. Doing what he thought was right.

>>44720999
underrated post

Did any of you niggers play Guns of the Patriots?

Towards the end, Raiden was was going on about how he was good for nothing but killing, and Snake told him otherwise, but to see salvation, he needed to stop, otherwise he would always be a "shadow". And Raiden found his salvation, he stopped fighting and raised a family.

>>44720999
The Boss's dream fully realized.

Richard Garfield would say lawful good.
a sane person would say chaotic neutral with good intentions

Chaotic Neutral. Good in action and in desired result, but revels in evil and slips in method here and there.

>>44721625
>Towards the end, Raiden was was going on about how he was good for nothing but killing, and Snake told him otherwise, but to see salvation, he needed to stop, otherwise he would always be a "shadow". And Raiden found his salvation, he stopped fighting and raised a family.
And then he started fighting again, and found out he /really/ fucking loves killing, and kept doing it, under the guise of a good cause.

Chaotic Good (Barely)

Clearly chaotic, as he rejects orders/control in favor of independance, and favors the individual over the group

On the good-evil axis, it's complicated, but there are a couple of points to consider.

His objectives are Good: Save those that can still be saved, and minimize the damage. Stop those that would continue the war economy.

His actions are moderately evil. He enjoys combat and killing, and no longer resists it. However, he restricts that to a specific class, he's not cutting down innocent bystandards, or whatever the easiest kill is.

We also see that he accepts that he is willing to kill to save others from having to do so. Self sacrifice is normally considered moderately good.

We also have the outside observer benefit of knowing the intentions of "universe" that Raiden is objectively on the side of good.

He's borderline, but probably Chaotic Good, or possibly Chaotic Neutral not in the insane random sense, but in the individualist, and morally grey sense.

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Friendly reminder that The Boss is Chaotic Neutral and Big Boss is Neutral Evil.

>>44722221
The Boss is straight up CG. Wants to bring peace to the world, wants everyone to be free, and was willing to die, and be a scapegoat in order to prevent a massive war.

>>44722194
>He enjoys combat and killing
But neither are Evil.

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>>44722299
>actively desiring to do others harm isn't evil

>>44720820
Badass.


That is all

>>44720820

Unaligned. Maybe leaning towards good.

>>44720820
Unaligned.
His morality and ideals no longer have anything to do with concepts such as good and evil or order and chaos.

>>44721370
Negative on that, mundo. You can sign up with any of the dozen PMCs free floating after the war economy went down. Desperado is one of them profiting from creating violent scenarios. Anyone who works for them and doesn't do basic background checks might not be evil, but it's also not evil to cut them down.

Guns for hire are always valid targets - if you kill for a living you don't get to call someone killing you evil.

>>44722319
We can't always control what it is that produces endorphins for us when we do it. But we CAN choose to either not pursue those desires, or direct them towards a greater good. Raiden simply stops lying to himself about the fact that some part of him enjoyed the adrenaline rush and the challenge in battle. It's fucked up, he KNOWS it's fucked up, but he's not going to pretend he doesn't enjoy it anymore. Doesn't mean he won't keep pointing it in directions where he can do good.
He's not necessarily GOOD, but enjoying a good scrap doesn't exactly make him evil either.

>>44722319
It's not. Killing people who are in need of killing also isn't evil.

Violence itself is a powerful and dangerous tool that can be used for good or evil.

And while one should abhor violence upon those who cannot defend themselves, using violence in defence of those who cannot defend themselves is an act of good, not evil.

>>44722439
For the record, they were law enforcement. Yes, they were hired by Desperado, but their job was only supposed to be law enforcement (talking about only the cop guys, of course the rest probably knew the risks).

>>44722536
You don't remember the "law enforcement" executing civilians out of hand when in that mission?

Because trying to save those asshole civs was REALLY HARD.

Even the cops are outright murderers on emotional suppressing nanomachines.

>>44721370
They aren't innocents. Just because they're slaves doesn't mean they haven't done some horrible shit, and it certainly doesn't mean they aren't trying to kill him.

I'd say he's chaotic neutral, but with leanings towards good.

>>44722319
Trying to keep those desires in check until there are assholes who need to die nearby isn't evil.

>>44720999
Trips confirm that Raiden is the fufilment of the Boss' dream.

>>44722634
Just like real cops.

>>44722221
>Reminder that Huey is Chaotic Evil
>Kaz is Chaotic butthurt

>>44724851
Huey is True Neutral. Like the average commoner, he will serve the greatest evil or the greatest good, so long as he gets his paycheck and his blood stays in his veins.

>>44724892
That's not True Neutral, that's Neutral Evil without large scale ambition.

>>44724892
>so long as he gets his paycheck and his blood stays in his veins.
And murder his baby mother
And use said baby to pilot a WMD

>>44724925
It's true neutral. You just don't give a damn about the forces of good or evil, or the lives of anyone that's not in your immediate circle (such as family).
Neutral evil would at least want to hurt others, or take some measure of satisfaction from it.

>>44724941
That was to save his own skin, as a desperate neutral would.

>>44724956
A person who acts in their complete self interest without any care for anyone at all is Neutral Evil, I'm pretty sure Neutral Evil is outright described as "Will do anything for self interest, fuck if it hurts other people".

Just because Huey isn't the fucking Season Finale villain on Criminal Minds and eats babies because it makes his dick hard doesn't mean he's not evil.

>>44721515
Punisher never kills anyone who doesn't cause death & destruction, and is usually portrayed as avoiding permanently injuring people who are trying to do good.

I'd say Chaotic Good. He is trying to make the world a better place, and he has his own code, but it's by no means society's code of laws.

>>44722221
Boss was the most lawful good, she fulfilled her duty as a soldier right to the end.
Big Boss starts off lawful neutral as naked snake and begins to drift slowly towards chaos and towards good, until he's neutral good in peace walker.
After ground zeroes it's questionable what exactly big boss is, probably chaotic neutral.
Venom is definitely neutral evil though.

>>44725009
That may be how he wants to work, but thanks to shit writers we get times when he murders people for petty reasons, I.E. in that Christmas special Linkara reviewed where he killed a ex-Criminal who had no recent criminal record, was on his way to becoming a better person, and even helped Punisher take down a active crime boss the same day.

>>44725039
Sure, but in general (and especially in the well-written stuff), he behaves as I indicated. His general tendency is CG.

>>44725001
That is incorrect. You're simply off on the alignment qualification. Neutral evil will also hurt others, because to see another suffer brings joy to neutral evil.
It's the opposite of neutral good, who will help others.
True neutrals are in it for themselves and the people they immediately care for (like his son). They'll help or hurt others for this end.

>>44725100
I repeat, you don't need be a caricature to be evil, "Fuck you, got mine" is evil when it's take to the extent you outright murder people for daring to stop you from using your child as a weapons tester, or willing to fucking sell biological weapons the megalomaniacs who'll want to ethnically cleanse the world.

Being a selfish dickbag with no qualms of who your selfishness kills is evil.

>>44721641
Which was what, exactly?
I may be wrong, but wasn't it something like "a world without boarders", with a specific interpretation?

>>44725155
Again, you're wrong. Read the stipulations of the neutral evil alignment.
Selfishness is not evil, it's just a consideration for oneself.
Being a dickbag is evil, but being a dickbag sometimes and a nice guy othertimes is neutral because that balances out.
A farmer who kills another farmer because he's threatening his own livelihood isn't evil, just a neutral under stress.

>>44725180
If the Boss was clear with what her dreams were, like, 80% of the issues in Metal Gear wouldn't happen.

>>44725193
>Murdering people for your own gain isn't evil!
I really don't know what to say to this other then your world views clash way too much with my own to form anything resembling a dialogue about this topic.

I mean, I could call you retard and make myself feel better and follow the expectations set up by the Chans I suppose.

>>44725250
Me
>Neutrals will perform evil and good in equal measure!
You
>Anyone who performs evil is evil!

That's not how alignments work.

>>44725250
>follow the expectations set up by the Chans
I read chans as church and that was far more entertaining to me than you know

>>44725250
>Killing in self-defense is evil
>You're killing for your own personal gain (of your life)

>>44721490
Wasn't the choice "Don't have a job and starve yourself and family" vs "Take this job we offer you, just ignore the fine-print about implanting you with a chip to shut down you're ability to act on fear."

>>44725264
Just because one performs some good actions doesn't mean they're not evil. Huey's not doing good because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because it benefits him, a Neutral Evil person will still do a good act if it benefits themselves, they're just also willing to do things that are evil to benefit themselves as well.

Yeah, Huey stopped Hot Coldman from starting a nuclear Apocalypse that'll kill human civilization as we know it, not because he cares for everyone on the planet, but because he lives in human civilization.

>>44725327
I meant helped stop, not fully stop.

>>44725327
>a Neutral Evil person will still do a good act if it benefits themselves
Actually, no. Neutral evil will go out of its way to hurts others even to its own detriment, the same way neutral good will go out of its way to help others even to its own detriment.
Again, you don't understand alignments.

>>44725327
>Just because one performs some good actions doesn't mean they're not evil
It does move them further from the evil line and closer to the neutral line, though. Taking out of alignment actions will result in alignment shifts.

>>44725366
You don't seem to understand alignments in any other terms than Evil is stupid.

>>44720820
Tryhard

>>44720848
>He's also fairly lawful
>literally has a mission where he just slaughters the Chicago PD by the dozens

>>44725366
Literally the first two lines of the SRD on Neutral Evil

>"A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience."

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>>44725388
Evil rejoices at the pain of others. It's not stupid, nor complex. It is not enough for evil to succeed, but for others to fail.

>>44720820
Edgy/10

>>44725408
Sure. But Huey isn't just out for himself, he wants to protect his son as well. Out of alignment.
You could say he's True Neutral with Neutral Evil tendencies.

>>44725441
How in gods name is Huey out to protect his son? He fucking used him to test out walking WMDs.

>>44725451
Where in the world is safer than the nuclear deathtank?
Plus, Skullface would be threatening him anyway. So helping the project along extends his own lifespan and that of his son's.

Raiden follows a code of conduct, thus drawing him to the Lawful end of the spectrum, additionally his actions prior to the game (as a member of a PMC trying to stabalize an african nation) are also lawful in nature. One should note though, his jack the ripper persona however embodies chaos, by the end though that chaotic personality has been extinguished as he accepts his bloodlust rather than trying to rebel against it. In that respect Raiden is most likely Lawful

The ends of raiden's actions are meant to save others and provide protection, making him generally a good person, however in doing these actions he fuels his self serving enjoyment for killing others, thus drawing him towards evil, In that respect Raiden is likely Neutral

Raiden is a form of Lawful Neutral due to his dedication to a personal code of conduct and a desire to do good that conflicts somewhat with his personal desire for destruction and death.

>>44725456
You mean the same nuclear death tanks that had a life expectancy of about a week?

>>44727538
That's only when a Snake is around.

>>44727541
Snake is always around

He's sexually attracted to them

>>44722319
Are you telling me that wanting to smite evil makes me evil?

>>44724925
>Downtrodden peasants are NE.
Somehow I don't think so.

>>44727671
Downtrodden peasants can be good OR evil. If he starts working for a firm that does evil shit, he's evil. If he works for a good firm, he's more likely to be good. If he works for a firm that does not have a stance on good or evil he is more likely to be neutral.

Simply being a downtrodden peasant does not set your alignment. A downtrodden peasant who fucks his young, resisting daughter because the wife died is still evil.

>>44722319
Don't know what you try to convey with that pic, sarcasm? irony? hypocresy?

Chaotic Neutral, leaning towards good. He struggles with an emotion that most people have (albeit not to his extent), yet manages to keep his bloodlust focused on those who harm innocent and perpetuate war. I don't think there are many people in the world now who, if they had urges and background of Raiden (and by that I mean being a child soldier), would manage to maintain morality. They'd end up more like Sundowner

He more to lose than to gain by helping the little people, whereas any of the scumbags that he's fought against could've given him fortunes for his trouble. Fortunes, and as much people/soldiers to kill as he wanted.

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>>44722533
"I don't enjoy killing, but when done righteously, it's just a chore, like any other."

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Ayy lmao it's just a videogame. A weaboo video game at that, which means they deliberately give him cognitive dissonance and bi-polar breakouts since glorifying mental illness is all the rage in Japan.

No real person goes from "gotta save all the children" to "I WAS BORN TO KILL" back and forth in the span of hours.

>>44721490
Butthurt ancap detected.

>>44722134
Yup. Turns out you can't fight nature JACK.

>>44721469
You have no idea what you are talking about.

Firstly, there is no such thing as "evil no matter how you slice it". If evil exists, it is only as a subjective concept that varies entirely by individuals. You cannot say something is just evil.

Secondly, selfishness is not something to be condemned. Why should the fathers let the people they love die just to let some people they don't know live a better life? That's certainly not evil, although I concede it would not be argued that it is good under the alignment system.

Killing these people is just like killing any other human being. There is no such thing as a good or a bad person, just a person who does something you like or a person who does something you don't. If you go by alignments, then good people are those who work for the betterment of others, while bad people work for the detriment of others. Neutrals are people who work for their own betterment, or for the betterment of some at the expense of others.

>>44725009
In MAX he straight up shot an old lady in the face because she MIGHT have helped her son (who he murdered in front of her) get away with some crime once.

Frank Castle isn't a good guy, he's a psychopath who projects his own failure to protect his family onto everyone else, and murders them to avoid taking responsibility for his own incompetence.

>>44728169
Yes, and?

>>44721241
>Raiden can't go home
Why?

>>44728537
Even if it were safe to have a picket fence life with the wife and kid, he could never stick around for it long enough. He's a killer, through and through. I doubt he'd want to pass that meme onto his kid, either. Nigga's just gonna have to be a fuckin' ronin 'til his cybernetics give out.

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>>44721367

Let me lay it down

>Raiden: WR
>Solid: W
>Liquid: BG
>Solidus: UG
>Boss: W
>Big Boss (pre-going nuclear): WB
>Big Boss (post-going nuclear): BR
>Venom: BR
>Skullface: R
>Huey: UB
>Otacon: UR

>>44728840
>Even if it were safe to have a picket fence life with the wife and kid, he could never stick around for it long enough.

Plus I can't really see him in a polo shirt and jeans.

>>44720820
Chaotic faggot

>>44722536
On the other hand, they weren't actually legally allowed to arrest or even fight Raiden. In a way, the entire police department was dirty.

>>44729614
Er, why weren't they legally allowed to arrest or fight Raiden?

>>44729614
Well, depends on the laws surrounding cyborg bodies.

I mean, even being in the high-spec combat body he was in may have been illegal. It's the equivalent of carrying an RPG around with you.

Mind, they did shoot first, so probably pretty dirty.

>>44725402
Private security is still private security, even if it is hired by the "goverment". Mercs are expendable. The only oath they hold is to the company.

>>44728169
I've watch Generation Kill. They used to go from gotta save the children to I WAS BORN TO KILL CHILDREN.

>>44729025
I'd put Otacon as WUR.

>>44729859
Because all he did was drive into Denver. But like >>44729950 said, private security is private security.

>>44729873
The "cops" say at the start of the level that he(as a military cyborg)is not authorized to operate in that area. Presumably, military class cyborgs either have to have limiters put in place when in civilian areas, or have to switch out(in the case of full body conversions like Raiden)their body for a less weaponized one.

>>44725030
Really? Because of mercenary killing for money and revenge thing? Hmm, I thought Ahab playing Ishmael like damn fiddle is evil-er.

>>44722134
Rising isn't canon.

>>44730786
You got it backwards, Ishmael is the fiddler.

>>44730846
Oops, got confused for sec.

>>44728271
>There is no such thing as a good or a bad person, just a person who does something you like or a person who does something you don't.
Doesn't that create the same problems unkempt democracy does, AKA the minority is always evil, no matter what position they possess?
I mean, if it's a matter of a vote.

>>44730955
I don't understand your point. The minority is the minority, not evil.

>>44730472
Be fair. He drove into Denver decked out in a high performance combat cyberbody. He basically rolled up in a tank.

>>44730982
Well, let me put it like this.
If the minority wants to do something, and the majority wants to do another thing that isn't possible if the minority does that thing, then if the minority gets its way, the majority will be displeased, making the action 'evil' in general, right?
So I don't see why trying to define good and evil by those markers has any worth.
Or, try this.
Let's assume everyone wants to sleep, but has to eat to not die, and doesn't want to die, but doesn't want to work, and you need to work to eat.
Is refusing yourself or other people the ability to sleep so that they can work to eat and not die evil, or good in that instance? What are we going to be measuring, if we need to create a balance?

>>44731075
Addendum: I'm just doing armchair philosophy here, because I always seem to hear this statement when morality is brought up and it's never really been justified to me.

>>44721241

I wish revengeance would have been an interquel between 2 and 4. I liked the ending he had in 4, and felt like they threw him back into the blender for no other reason than to sell a cyborg ninja game which they could have done without raiden anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToYnNzamHJA

>>44731075
You don't understand. If I think something is evil, what I really think is that it's an action I don't like.

There is no "evil in general". There is just "evil to me as an individual".

>>44721370
>destitute
>in serfdom
>this justifies murder
You see, this is exactly why they should kick utilitarianism out of the educational system entirely.

"Muh poor family" might justify WHY you are doing X, but the minute you pick up a gun and start shooting at somebody you have lost 'innocent' status and are now a combatant. This shit isn't hard.

>>44730819
It's more canon than V

>>44722319
by this logic
>all carnivores are evil
>toxic plants are evil

This is why children shouldn't have a voice. There is no such thing as "evil" within existence. There's callous and cruel and selfish and a whole spectrum of shitty things to call something but as far as we know death is completely natural, by your hands or by nature's, and it's absolutely infantile to accuse somebody of "evil" just because you are on the wrong side of the violent nature of life for once.

>inb4 muh genocides and holocaust
The scale of an act does not affect its morality in the slightest.

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>>44731338
Explain yourself.

>>44731383
Too bad you're arguing in the context of D&D alignments, products of a setting where Evil and Good are literal actual forces.

>>44720820
Chaotic Awesome

>>44729025
>Raiden: WR
>Solid: W
>Liquid: BG
>Solidus: UG
>Boss: W
>Big Boss (pre-going nuclear): WB
>Big Boss (post-going nuclear): BR
>Venom: BR
>Skullface: R
>Huey: UB
>Otacon: UR
What are these?

>>44732853
Magic the Gathering color combinations

>>44725402
They were badguy snickering about how he was 'resisting arrest', when he was just standing there, man.

>>44730986
Could have just been making the trip to see his aunt or visit his LGS for all they know.

>>44724941
In hindsight, did Strangelove see Huey as anything beyond a good scientist and a source of sperm? Strangelove though of Hal as her & The Boss' Kid.

For all we know Skullface would have killed all of them had Huey not done what was told.

Raiden isn't evil because of the ripper, and was probably made better because of it being released.
He still had a selfless cause that he worked toward without any promise of compensation, but he stopped hiding behind the "my sword is a tool of justice" facade.

>>44725412
>tfw you will never be a Kotomine-tier priest

>>44721547
Keyword "Right". He's acting based on morality, not his personal wants.
Classic Chaotic Good.

>>44720820
He isn't any alignment because he is not a D&D character and he does not exist in a universe where Alignments are an objective property of beings.

tl:dr stop shoehorning alignment into non-D&D settings you git

>>44721415
>>44721469
>>44721515
>>44722439
Raiden'so in such a different league to these guys that it isn't a fight though, is it? They may as well stand still and do nothing while trying to fight him; he's pretty much murdering defenseless people everyone he fights.

Sure, SOME of them may have done bad shit but as we see from Blade Wolf, not everyone who works for Despardo ever had the choice, either because they'd be killed for defying others, watch their family starve or be memory wiped. It's really easy to say "these guys deserve it because they do bad shit" but unlike the Numerberg Trials, these schmucks didn't volunteer.

Raiden fighting these guys isn't two equal combatants against each other, it's cavemen against Spec Ops. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.

>>44737273
The fuck is he supposed to do, stand there and let them cut him into little tiny pieces because him fighting back isn't "fair"?

>>44731383

>implying angry ass dickhead herbivores aren't responsible for more deaths and maimings per year

Check out the statistics on deer related injuries and deaths world-wide, it's insane. We should be cultivating more carnivores to death with their mensce, not shooting and demonizing them.

>>44722319
It's not like the people he killed were good people, they were hired guns.
Sure, both raiden and his enemies aren't that different, as both kill tons of people, but raiden does it following his moral code, while his enemies were acting out of greed except sam and maybe armstrong, but that depends on if you belive that armstrong actually belived ehat je claims to . They thrived off of destruction and actively worked to cause more wars and such. Violence breeds violence, and they simply reaped what they sowed. Their dying is just the way it has to be.

>>44734459
Yes, Strangelove was a lesbo who had it hard for the boss but since she had the hots for Big Boss after Sorrow died, she got nowhere with her love.

Huey was a twisted motherfucker though AFTER the first Motherbase incident. Before he was an idealist with desires to use the horrible technology he was forced to create, for good.

Then he started shoving children into WMDs.

>>44741525
>Then he started shoving children into WMDs.
Let's be fair, Hal got his revenge in fucking spades.