Why has GW's design process gotten so fucking horrific even as their technical abilities have improved so much? Cramming more detail onto a badly thought out model does not make it better. Or phrased another way: a 1080p video of two ugly people fucking may actually turn me off even more than a 320p video of the same thing, because it is easier to notice how ugly they are.
>>44698069 >Can anyone honestly say gw's are twice as good
However, I built AoW berserker(gunner and pathfinder), I would say their quality is slightly better than GW zombie, full of moldline, out of scale, hard to rank up...etc, but they are cheap and look great in rank and file.
GW berzekers? Expensive always, the problem is they don't look good in loose formation.
>>44706296 sometimes it just works. but still, skitarii weren't like what we could have gotten 10 years ago on a design perspective (they are cleaner than the original artworks). what I really hate about gw now is that they make some great models and then fuck it all up with small details that I personally hate. for example, the new slayer hero is grate except for the fact that he looks like dwarf lincoln thanks to no mustaches. other example is the new big lizard kit: why does the dwarf have such a shitty pose? manfred, archaon etc, were beautiful sculpts instead and they came out in the recent years
Don't you guys think GW's models over the last few years have turned more and more static to the point that they have no fucking life in them?
Look at this shit, they're fucking dead. There is no soul in these little pieces of plastic, just the slave-work of a poorly paid worker who just had to feed his family.
With his hate for the company he fueled his mind to create these wretched abominations. The lost souls of all the miniatures out of productions are probably still wailing through the hallways of GW, screaming in agony as the company falls to a darker and twisted pit, full of static poses, stupid designs and disgustingly expensive prices.
>>44706596 GW's animal sculpts, especially the metal ones, were done by people who had never actually seen the animals they were sculpting, and had to rely on third-hand accounts of their appearance, like medieval scribes being told about animals from africa or asia.
>>44707739 outside of certain models most of that range was about cashing in on a popular fad they happened to maintain the IP of. the game's actual rules were okay, except that it was fully about recreating scenarios from the books and therefor rather dull except as a mental exercise.
still can't believe that models survived to printing. pretty much confirms that there are sane people left at GW, at some point someone should have taken a quick look at those weapons and said 'no, this is not going to happen'
>>44707686 I think what happened was someone in GW's management said to the development team "I want new chaos knights and I want to sell them for $170." So they had to keep on adding more and more detail until the models were a mess.
Doesn't help that their deamonic mounts look like oversized greyhounds with bad teeth.
But personally the reason for me these guys are so dull is that we've had a constant stream of chaos releases and there's only so many times you can see a new giant angry barbarian who wants to destroy the world, dressed in slabs of armour and wielding oversized weapons before they start to become mundane. I mean when was the last time the Empire or Bretonnia got new stuff?
Speaking of which, has there been of a picture yet of a normal human being who isn't part of Chaos?
>>44708434 I am fucking not, he picks up an infant survivor of a chaos raid that has been tainted, gives it a bottle of Explodium with a stupid GW trademark name and throws it at a bloodbeserker bloodblooder.
The Tau are less OTT because they've always been less OTT when compared to the other factions. The newer models still have an over abundances of details when compared to the old. Lots of wires and tubes and antennas.
Just look at the Stormsurge and tell me it isn't a horribly posed over designed mess of a model.
You can still read the original design notes for the Tau online somewhere and the whole point of the Tau was that they were high tech and minimalist which would set them apart from the Imperium where everything has external cables, cogs and dials and so forth. The newer models do show that GW are gradually forgetting this, given time the Tau will be just as much of a visual cluster fuck as everyone else.
It amazes me that the AoS general has any form of discussion in it at all but the fact that they earnestly discuss "tactics" and the viability of certain units is incredible.
The level of self delusion involved to convince themselves that what they are playing involves any kind of strategy or tactics or that it's can even be called a competitive game at all is just incredible.
I don't even play but pop up in the general once in a while to see if some models have leaked, and the amount of bitter fantasy players is terrible. Peoplz go their to shitpost and then congratule themselves by saying "Look, they can't even have a proper discussion! Bring back fantasy!"
Lots of AoS fans actually think the inability of it to be competitive is a GOOD thing. Because anybody who expects the game to have actual rules is a WAAC fag and AoS is great because these people do not want to play it.
Meanwhile they will argue its easier to run fluffy games despite most armies being now without any basis in the fluff and there being nothing to stop you making mixed armies with no fluff basis at all. They also bitch about having to take core units in WHFB even though that was fluffy and forced you to build an actual army instead of a collection of heroes, war machines and giant monsters.
Whereas anybody truing to run an actual fluffy WHFB army, especially a goblin or skaven one in AoS is completely fucked. Both because of the sudden death rule and from trying to move 200+ models in skirmish formation.
>>44708704 >>44708762 I don't get how you can call AoS a narrative driven game. I mean I played Empire and their narrative in AoS is 2000 years ago, the Empire was drowned in a mix of demon pus and shit, then their planet blew up. The End.
>>44708931 This is the problem, even if there was anything to give a shit about in AoS they are not telling it to us.
These days its considered a good idea for a wargame with a new setting to tell you the outline of all the factions from the start. Not keep you in the dark completely and leave your existing army adrift without any place in the new game its supposedly valid for.
>>44708965 It's like you expect logic from GW. >>44708931 >>44708958 Old WHFB art is great, I really like the mix of plausible armor and fantasy (all the scrolls and gritty weapons and armor) I'm glad there are other manufacturers than do it.
>>44709043 Momminiaturas did those >>44709063 , they will be an euro the piece, and then there is a lot of minor ones than do heroes and stuff like Gamezone and AoW, the later if they get they shit together could update they Cirleans than are Imperial Spain in fantasy.
>>44708894 >Meanwhile they will argue its easier to run fluffy games despite most armies being now without any basis in the fluff
This is what kills it for me. Even if you're playing one of the factions that haven't been wiped off the map in the end times unless you play chaos there is little to no fluff surrounding your army.
I play vampire counts and I want to know what place my generic vampire has in this world so I can write a backstory for him. What fluff do the undead have? >NAGASH NAGASH NAGASH NAGASH NAGASH NAGASH Yeah, ok, that's real nice GW but I'm not buying that giant model. What about just a lowish ranking vampire? What about the realm of dead where Nagash and all his moral followers live? >dunno lol, wait until the next release maybe?
>>44709090 I am still pissed off at what they did to Lizardmen, they were one of my favourite factions in any Fantasy setting.
>>44709089 Nobody is really defending WHFB as it was, its just we did not realise how much worse things could be. If GW had gone back to 6th edition rules/prices and the way they used to act things could have been turned around.
>>44709144 That's because Paniague had to outsource the mini doing to another artist, they chewed more than they could with plastic and had lots of logistic nightmares because this. They are cool people but not the more business savvie out there.
>>44709237 >Yes, that's a pity you can't kit out your heroes like you could in fantasy. On the other hand, there were usually very few combinations in WHFB that were just fare superior to all others. So from a gameplay perspective, not much is lost.
>>44709159 Yeah I found that argument silly too, I get lots of fun making the fluff of my armies for KoW, than the game works like a charm is a huge boon. >>44709224 I think the new book had some rules for extending the campaign and pimping a bit your units or something, pity than I discovered KoW only after AoS.
>>44709224 The new campaign rules let you use characters created with the Dungeon Saga rules in Kings of War. That said those rules aren't out yet, so whether they meet your qualifications is uncertain.
>>44709169 >They are cool people Indeed they are, which it makes it even worse. Honestly the sculpt are still good, but the hard plastic is shit and some of the recently casts are amateurs at best. I'm really sad they didn't grow as much they deserved.
>>44698069 Honestly I feel the GW dwarves would look so much better if they had better poses. I mean, half of them either have their axes flailing around like they don't know how to use them, or have that stupid "Come at me bro" look.
They could have looked good, the quality of the sculpts themselves are really good, its just wasted on really derpy poses. I mean most of the poses where the dwarf is swinging his weapon looks like either his weapon is way too heavy for him or he just doesn't know what he's doing.
>>44709831 Isn't that the first thing that comes to mind when you think "Daemonette standard bearer"? I'm fairly certain my conversion from ~8 years ago does that. Though theirs is probably better implemented.
>>44708146 GW only has the IP about what it made them great, all imaginative guys, best modelers etc have left, heck I think GW imploding and selling they IP would be the best think for WH in general, the ones owning it are too incompetent.
>>44709127 Honestly the lizards got off easy compared to others, they remain a relive army even if neglected in new fluff and while I dislike making them all angels the idea if being able to make daemons quake in fear is fun
>>44710945 yeah, basically I rarely see anyone playing aos anymore I even got a dwarf army for cheap because I love dwarfs and aos made a lot of people sell their armies, it's fun for 10 matches but then it's always the same stuff.... I'd like to introduce my two friends I play aos with to warhammer 8th but I don't think they'd like it because they prefer simple games.
>>44710983 Yeah, this is the sweetspot for artdesign and rules that are not all over the place. Then after the Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror fiascos GW basically stops trying to do cool things to avoid losing face. After that it just kinda goes into a slow decline that leads up to today.
>>44711045 Kings of War, Dragon Rampant if you want a slightly more skirmishy game, plenty of others. HotT if you play with old grogs. Mighty Armies if you just want to push figures around for an hour and don't want to read HotT's rules.
>>44711184 You can give them magic objects and mages can choose different spells or update them. Tough more rules for customization would be pretty sweet for KoW, the problem would be balance but for friendly games I think choosing two or three magic objects for heroes could work.
TYW is plastic doe and cheap af though it's a little later period. In plastic they have handgunners, pikemen and pistoliers. They sell customization packs with additional hat/helmet variations since the ECW/TYW kit has hat-placement built in. If you stuck feathers, skulls, scrolls, and a couple of hat-swaps they would start to look pretty empire-y.
The same could be said for perry's renaissance figures, though they are slightly too early for empire. Unfortunately I have seen several kickstarters for plastic empire - equivalents which failed, including one for a multipart plastic box of landsknechts which looked great and would have been perfect.
>>44712237 Sculpting something on computer is not he same as in a physical medium. Just compare Adrian Smith's old paintings to his modern digital work. It lacks that certain something that the physical process did for the artist.
>>44713339 The problem with the Eye of Terror campaign is that the results were a messy as fuck stalemate that would be very difficult to work into ongoing fluff and would royally piss off non-imperial players.
So they just quietly went back on their worf and retconned everything.
>>44713480 >and would royally piss off non-imperial players hold up
Orks, eldar and tyranids all had excellent showings. Many of which were given nods in later fluff. The Imperials also had interesting results, with marines kind of doing their own shit instead of contributing to the main war effort, while the navy saved everyone's asses.
>>44713339 The problem with Eye of Terror was that nothing of importance came out of it from a story perspective except for stupid things like Abaddon wasted another Blackstone Fortress and Eldrad died because.
The content of the campaign was very cool, though.
They aren't even slayers anymore m8, they aren't shamed dwarves trying to atone by seeking a glorious death in battle, they now live on a fire-planet and serve any master (including chaos) as long as they are paid Ur-Gold, which is like gold, only mysterious and mystical.
All Avatars of War know how to do is copy GW. What will they do if the quality of GW sculpts falls? Is this all some massive ruse to put the copycat companies out of business by forcing them to make poor minis?
>>44711180 don't worry, you don't actually use the bases for anything. Everything is measured from the models, and if someone's on a base that's too large for your dude to reach them, just place your guy on top of their base!
Thats the problem. on the 40k side the imperium got dunked on, but then the battlefleet gothic imperials shoved their gigantic statuary covered cocks way up inside everything.
And the vast majority of people only play 40k. If you actually carry that through you're going to have lots of people complaining "what do you mean 'and then the panel was bombarded'? we won, damnit" and the only thing you can tell them is, "whelp like 7 guys vaugely on your side sucked at a game you've never heard of so it doesn't matter."
>>44712233 Yeah. The Slayer lore is gone too, the concept doesn't exist for Dwarves anymore. Instead gold is like crack for them, and they do anything to get it so the priests can put it in their bodies as runes.
Why does GW insist on copyrighting the names of everything? I don't know what effect this has on the business. It's done jack shit against third party businesses, they simply state "fyi this bit is compatible with GW DUARDIN URGOLDIANS" and can't get in trouble for that.
>>44713705 Or maybe it was a good reflection of how the universe was portrayed in the fluff at the time. The Imperial Navy was always the thing that kept the Imperium standing. Marines are great, but a small force tat can hardly be effectively deployed. The Imperial Guard on the other hand, suck but half compensate for that with numbers. All other races have a better balance of numbers and firepower. But nothing beats the Navy in terms of ships and firepower. Also BFG was one of the best games GW ever made.
>>44713771 >remembering slaughtering orks I mean I know it was always pretty easy, but back then marines could be easily configured to be the best anti-infantry army of the game. You were fucked if someone brought too much armour, but it always worked against orks.
Thy renamed all the paints too, even though at least half of them are the exact same colour as before (shadow grey, scorched brown, bleached bone, etc.) I assume to copyright those but, again, it's not that hard for Vallejo or whoever to name it similarly, like I have an old Vallejo paint that was "Beasty Brown" instead of "Bestial Brown," you could still do that with a lot of the names, and it's confusing as fuck with all the retarded paint names, not least of all the lizardmen range which is literally called "temple guard green" or something when it is actually a shade of blue, and Duncan Rhodes even said it was a shade of blue in a video, but still called it by its full name. Ugh.
>>44714020 They were slightly more challenging to learn and play. That's why. Most of GW's 40k customers couldn't into anything even slightly more complicated than 40k. And i guess their fantasy players only wanted fantasy?
According to rick priestly they accidentally ordered too many copies of the gorkamorka rules translated into different languages and it nearly bankrupted the company so the suits eventually decided to axe everything but whfb/40k/LotR
>>44713783 The explanation I've read is that UK copyright law states that if you don't try to defend your IP at all times, you effectively have to give it up.
This would mean that every time someone tries to sell "Dwarf Slayers" that are half-naked bearded dwarves, GW are forced to send a C&D and go through all of the court work despite the fact that they know they're going to lose because "dwarf", "slayer" and "half-naked" combined aren't unique enough to be called an IP.
The easy solution is to rename your Slayers to Fyreslayers, your Dwarfs to Steamhead Duardin, your Lizardmen to Seraphon etc., so that whenever someone's selling generic fantasy miniatures you don't have to go to court and lose just to keep your IP rights.
>>44714122 It's telling of several things. 1 is that GW sucks, yes. The other is that there is more to making a fun game than just the rules. A good game that is in some way sufficiently engaging can overcome a certain amount of bad rules. Space battles of giant church ships vs space-elf clippers, or garbage ships, or chaos satanic church ships was awesome enough to make it great.
>>44714188 I think it has a lot to do with most marine players only ever building the "best" army. So when it doesn't work they have no options, and the only thing they can figure out to do is spaz out.
>>44714266 >>44714271 Pretty much. It had a [personality that just felt right. >>44714254 Yes more ore less. But there's a catch: all the special rules for all the armies are essentially the same but with different names. The basic rules are really basic, and the special rules are repetitive enough to not be hard to figure out.
>>44714307 I never got into mordheim. It always looked neat, but i was already too into 40k and BFG. That might have been one of the problems with the specialty games really. You had to already be into the games they were an offshoot of to get into them, generally speaking.
>>44714204 Yeah, GW has been the embodiment of this. WFB and 40K were never good wargames but always excellent games. LotR was pretty good as a ruleset but lacked the spark to make that ruleset enjoyable. The specialist games are a bunch of game designer's horror stories (except maybe Epic), but they were still awesome.
People will cite various game excuses as for why they left 40K and WFB, but the sharpest decline in player approval was when they murdered the settings.
>>44714361 I was already not so thrilled about the quality of the fluff the years before the End Times, so GW just kinda confirmed with it at they had no good ideas the current staff. So I almost consider it a mercykilling.
I disregard the entire thing as non canon because it doesn't mesh well with thenplayer and better fluff.
>>44714127 >ordered too many copies...and it nearly bankrupted the company How does that even happen? No, like seriously, how could that happen at a corporate level? There are dozens of people that check and double check orders, finances, and customer demographics that should have all seen the shipping info at some point and not one person thought to himself, "gee, there sure are an awful lot of books being printed in Swahili for our 3 customers that speak that language."
>>44714275 >I think it has a lot to do with most marine players only ever building the "best" army.
Yeah, totally. My brother tried to do a proper marine army with six tactical squads and it never did as well as the ones with two tac squads and everything else maxed out. I hate to point the finger at muhreenz but it kinda seemed like this minmaxing started with marines and then spread to other factions, especially newer ones like necrons and tau, and then it got to the point where I couldn't win with my army built around 75 basic ork Boyzwith gretchin screens and vehicle support, and I started to lose interest in the game.
I got to like whfb more, started empire and dark elf armies, and then AoS sprayed feces all over that so now I just complain on the Internet because GW is dead to me but my nostalgia won't allow me to fully let it go
>>44714578 I lost interest n 6th. The point when my templars simply could not win. I had the stuff to min max to an extant, but i always played them as fluffy as I could. As much CC as i could reasonably cram in, always charging headlong into certain doom. The thing is, before the official minmax builds combined with the power creep, I could win sometimes. Or at least loose awesomely. Win that stpped being possible, and when it stopped being possible for anyone it stopped being fun. I liked games of insane zealot space knights vs insane ork mobz. Or anything like that. Just fun games with armies built around the way they were portrayed, not just how they can win.
I'm still surprised how many people only played 40k and didn't even acknowledge fantasy as existing, back when I was a fanboy I played most of what GW released, whfb, mordheim, gorkamorka, bfg, LotR. My first GW buy in 1998 was the gorkamorka starter because the concept of warcraft/tolkien-style orcs in space with machine guns and mad max vehicles blew my mind, then I got the 3rd edition 40k box and 5th edition whfb, so I guess I started out more open to trying all the specialist games.
Never got necromunda because it was OOP when I started and I was wary of inquisitor because the scale meant I couldn't use the minis in 40k
Yeah, the "new" ork codex back in '07 or '08 or whenever gave me some hope and I tried to get back into it, bought the black reach set or whichever one had the orks, but it seemed like even that codex was just designed to give orks the ability to make a smallish, tightly-focused minmax army, and that was right around when prices began to skyrocket with a vengeance
I think 5th was the last edition I bought the rules for, I haven't even looked into the newer rules changes because apocalypse already seemed like they were starting to lose it and go nuts trying to get people to buy and spam huge, expensive vehicles
The salamandra-thing going to cost $110. For a fucking model that's like the size of a high elf dragon kit (half the cost), roflmao
'They lowered the costs with Age of Sigtard, you don't need many models to play, see these DUARDIN FYRESLAYER force is only2 salamanders, 2x10 guys, 2x5 guys and a hero, for the bargain price of $450 for 33 models!
>yfw you realize the current crop of GW designers are responsible for many of GW's most reviled models, including but not limited to these Fyreslayers, the Taurox, the Stormsurge, and the Stormcast Eternals
>>44713761 The upcoming campaign book will have rules for heroes, along with new units and of course campaign rules. Hopefully they don't fuck it up, having a large commercially game where you can use any models you want that isn't Flames of War would be great.
>>44707624 >>44707686 The key they both have in common is a lack of any intuitive design sense coupled with a fucktarded roulette methodology for grafting on new features. Either they rocket wildly overboard with horse seizures and spines like that mutant lion that was shot recently, or they do absolutely NOTHING, enjoy your reference pose. Like they can somehow have no sense of restraint AND be terrified of rocking the boat, all at once. It's a company with dissociative identity disorder.
>>44708565 Tau went to shit when Ethereals went from reserved, graceful monitors and counsellors to blingtastic half-nude grandad-cardinals. At the same time all Tau stuff suddenly had these giant wedge antenna things that serve no purpose.
>>44708704 I'm pretty sure you could just throw a book of logical fallacies at Games Workshop's decision making process behind Age of Sigmar and the resulting anti-matter blast would cleave the earth in twain.
>>44708894 People who accuse anyone interested in a balanced game of being WAACs are what I like to call LAACs. They're former wannabe WAACs that realised they suck at the game and they also suck at being good sports, so they bitterly aim to shit in everyone's chips by reducing everything to a bullshit "I'm more FLAVOURFUL than you are" fest that they reckon they might win at.
This is the fate of many actual WAACs, incidentally. WAACs don't actually exist outside of actual early teens. Those that don't grow up or drop the hobby become the vehement "your all WAACfags!" that plague generals.
>>44716357 Its the same logical fallacy behind people who think you have to make an optimised character OR roleplay.
To these people I do not exist because I want a game with well crafted, balanced rules that also support narrative gaming and fluffy armies. WHFB delivers this far better than AoS ever will (No the balance was never amazing) but because AoS scared off the dirty people who care about having a functional game they praise it.
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