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Now with title and proper picture edition

/40kg/ falls for a profile post sub-edition

>Rules databases
https://mega.co.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ
https://kat.cr/warhammer-40k-pdf-library-t9575373.html

>FAQs
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Rules-Errata

>40k 7th edition quick reference sheet(s)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4104995/Games/7edRef_V6.pdf

>Forgeworld Book index
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Forge_World_and_Apocalypse_Rules_Index

Last thread: >>44684959
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>>44693894

>The races with the toughest codex units in the game belong to the Tau and Eldar, both races that favour speed, technology, and stealth

Why is this allowed?
>>
>>44693894

THIS THREAD NOW BELONGS TO THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!
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>>44693969
Because races with advanced technology always superior.
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>>44693969
>The best monsters in the game are, in fact, robotic walkers
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>>44693969

It's almost like superior technology is harder to destroy with inferior technology!
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>>44692576
~230 lbs
yes
no
no
csm
casual, sometimes fluffy
>>
>>44693992
Yes my colorful emprah.
>>
>>44693992
Yeah, so did 90% of the galaxy. Once.
>>
>>44693969
Because Codex Home Depot isn't out yet. In time the Tau and Eldar will fear the Sledgehammer.
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>>44694034
>>44694044
>Tau
>superior technology
>>
>>44694044
Why do Tau beat Necrons then.
>>
>>44694044
I dunno, destroying a modern computer with a big rock is usually really easy.
>>
If anyone in Vegas within 10-20 miles of McCarren airport that is looking for a game, post. Here till 5am. Unless I start drinking and get to gambling.
>>
>>44694088

It's a good question, in that if the justification for ELDUR BESHT is their high tech then Necrons should be even more capable of outclassing everyone.

They actually took away the C'tan's Hellstorm D weapon though.
>>
>>44694080
>skimmers
>jetpacks everywhere
>stealth everywhere
>access to SD weaponry
>mass plasma
>not superior
AdMech, pls go.
>>
>>44694095
Hey rocks are pretty powerful. Even the Hive Mind knows the power of stone.
>>
I have a question about Cadian wargear. Can I take a piece of Cadian wargear even if I am not using the formation, but my army is Cadian modeled? Also, can I bring a Taurox and still have it be a Cadian army?
>>
>>44694044
Reminder that orks are da best.
>>
>>44694095

Is a modern computer wartime tech?
>>
>>44694080
Superior technology to 95% than the stuff Orks and Imperium field. Heck, even when the Admech own troops were deployed against the Tau, the text still said that the Tau had the tech advantage.
>>
>>44694147
Keep talking when the AI takes all of that away.
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>>44694176
1: yeah, I think
2: the taurox is a part of the IG book, m8
>>
>>44694080
Go fuck a toaster Ad Mech. You're nothing compared to the Earth Caste
>>
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>No Ethereal Waifu.
>>
>>44694185
They're not stupid humans with maniac AI, so fuck off, AdMech.
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>>44694179
No, but considering that Orks literally throw gigantic rocks at worlds that have military installations on them all the time to achieve victory, I think my argument still stands.
>>
>>44694182
>Superior technology to 95% than the stuff Orks

Oh do Tau have the most accurate teleporters in the galaxy?
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>>44694212

>le corrupt ethereal face

Farsight enclave waifu or bust
>>
>>44694185
>When Tau AI are programed with the greatergood.exe, and we don't treat our robots like slaves, but secondary citizens.
There is a reason that this is a problem only humans had.
>>
>>44694179
right, wartime tech is usually worse since it's not being maintained by obsessive nerds
>>
How can we fix Vespids /tg/?
>>
>>44694194
Ok I just wanted another input. We are having a fluff based multi week event. And I wanted to be sure that the fluff didn't break the rules.
>>
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>>44694234
>>
>>44694234
>ywn deepstrike into battle on a rok

Why live
>>
>>44694182
>>44694205
Do we have to deploy that 5%?
>>44694226
They don't have to be human. A human could plant the AI inside of Tau tech. All it needs is a butthurt Magos or Warpsmith.
>>
Anybody got a link to the novels? The whole Return of the Orks thing actually interests me.
>>
>>44694256
Put them in a different codex.
>>
>>44694256
Make them cheaper.
>>
>>44694144
Paraphrasing Orkian, Superior technology does not guarantee victory unless wielded by superior beings.

Is there any race that more singularly superior than the Eldar.
>>
>>44694256
Assault 2, 5 point helmets.
>>
>>44694248
What if the AI feels as if the Tau are losing their way? They are becoming more belligerent.
>>
>>44694276
Not him but in addition looking for 40k Audiobooks. Can only find Horus Heresy. Are there others?
>>
>>44694256
Expand their race to have other specialist classes, or give them more weapon versatility on the field.

Really I think they could be a good unit if given the right weapons, and if they expanded on the race's background more that would be awesome.
>>
>>44694270
But you will never deploy the 5%

It will be oogled at in stasis fields.
>>
>>44694256
plastic kit

put them in a codex that isn't filled to the brim with some of the most efficient units in the game
>>
>>44694238
The teleporters fall into the 5% precent
>>
>>44694287
Old Ones.
>>
>>44694292
goodbye fanon anon.
>>
>>44694287
>Is there any race that more singularly superior than the Eldar.
Ask Uthan the perverse.
>>
>>44694292
Then the Earth Caste fixes that problem....
>>
>>44694256
Delete this shit from my glorious codex.
>>
>>44694287
>Is there any race that more singularly superior than the Eldar.

>S/T3
>No FNP equivalent

Eldar a wimps without their bikes and golems.
>>
>>44694313
What if a STC is found and the 5% becomes more common place?
>>
>>44694292
The Greater Good requires expansion. It's within acceptable parameters.

Also the Tau are getting more warlike in response to the Imperial aggression and Nid invasions,
>>
>>44694317
>plastic kit
all of the yes
>put them in a codex that isn't filled to the brim with some of the most efficient units in the game
Sorta, still wouldn't take them in IG, AdMech, or Chaos.
>>
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So, when we will get Tzeentch codex?
>>
>>44694391
I dunno, I'd probably take them in the Admech. Would work nicely alongside infiltrators.
>>
>>44694365
The Tau started it.
>Nids
I am surprised that the Tau haven't found a way to destroy the Nids yet at this point.
>>
>>44694362
What if the Earth Caste makes something better while the Ad Mech wait and spend resources trying to find a STC
>>
>>44694439
Hire some Blood Axes to steal the Tau stuff of course.
>>
>>44694433
>I am surprised that the Tau haven't found a way to destroy the Nids yet at this point.

They have, they just lack the galactic infrastructure to deploy it on a wide enough scale.
>>
>>44694433
They have, but the Hive Mind bust adapts to their latest stuff
>>
>>44694256
They're need new models. Because I don't want dirty naked bugs in my sci-fi army.
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>>44694467
>implying the hive mind can out adapt tau
Check your codex anon, it states outright that tyranids suck against tau.
>>
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What if the earth caste gave fire warriors power fists?
>>
Based on how GW are doing codexes now with supplements and all I think this'd be a pretty nice plan for CSM.
Two separate codices, one for the Traitor Legions and one for Renegade Chapters.
TL codex brings back all the lovely cult armies, maybe each legion gets CAD-like formation and 1 or 2 other specific formations.
Renegade Chapters codex has limited access to magicks, marks and daemon princes but can steal the loyalist gadgets like razorbacks and centurions.

Would anyone else like anything specific from a new CSM codex?
>>
>>44694482
Donkeypunch gauntlets? Not efficient enough to make any more of them.
>>
>>44694457

Ork Mercenaries, yeah...

Remember when Orks had a small ammount of non-war culture and the Imperials had some fringe interaction with Xenos?

1st and 2nd ed fluff was best. Can we just go back to that and staple in some goofier versions of Tau and Necrons to fit the tone without invalidating their model ranges?
>>
>>44694481
They sucked because they had Imperium allies to help them.
>>
>>44694462
>>44694467
>>44694481
I feel sorry for the Hive Mind. It just should just go home, or divert half of Leviathan on the Tau homeworld.
>>44694482
>Tau
>Melee
>>
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>Why are we still here?
>Just to suffer?
>Every night I can feel my age and the pewter....even the mould lines... the codex I lost...the players I've lost....won't stop hurting...It's like they're all still playing...you feel it too, don't you?
>I'm going to make them give back our army....
>>
>>44694481

>Check your codex anon, it states outright that tyranids suck against tau.

Don't pretend this is actually a problem guys: They need to be able to fuck them up with their tech so they can stand for a little while against their insurmountable numbers. Without an advantage, the first Hive Fleet to hit Tau space would wipe out the entire race.
>>
>>44694482
>S6
>WS2
>>
>>44694506
I like to think that still exists. We just have to find the Orks with the top hats.
>>
>>44694534
Nice pasta
>>
>>44694534
>This meme in every thread.
We get it anon.
>>
>>44694482

Well, they're already I2 so unweildy wouldn't hurt.

I'd love to see an assault broadside, swap out the missile pods for dual Onagers and fluff it as Farsight being a crazy bloodthirsty bastard.
>>
>>44694482
>>44694482
What if the earth caste gave fire warriors rail rifles?
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>>44694506
Yeah seriously, I much prefer the concept behind thriving ork cities that are straight out of Victorian London when not on a WAAAAGH!. There's much more room for ork focused stories that way as well which is definitely needed I feel.

Plus ogryns in the codex, aww yiss.
>>
>>44694534

Shut the fuck up faggot, literally copy+paste from last thread.

>Why are we still here?
You aren't, you are irrelevant
>Just to suffer?
You are choosing to.
>feel it too, don't you?
No my models are all plastic besides finecast HQs.
>I'm going to make them give back our army....
You wont do shit but jerk it to 40k porn and play some RPG
>>
>>44694592
Victory?
>>
>>44694598
Gorkamorka orks da best. Even interacting with da diggas and thinking they're kind of like grots.
>>
>>44694482
What if the earth caste gave hammerheads pilots xv02 suits?
What if the earth caste gave every criris iridium plating?
>>
So what do Ork and Tyranid tournament builds look like at the moment?

I imagine that Orks abuse all Zhard rules, and Tyranids fields 3x HT and Crones?
>>
>>44694698
>What if the earth caste gave hammerheads pilots xv02 suits?
>What if the earth caste gave every criris iridium plating?

Probably future developments, along with Shadowsun's suit becoming the new standard Stealth Suit and fire warriors getting all rail rifles.

Not on the tabletop mind, just next gen tech in the fluff.
>>
Fuck it, I delete my rant reply, no point....
>>
>>44694746
But I want it on the tabletop.
>>
>>44694730
Hive Tyrants, Crones and sometimes Terivgons with Termagaunts, usually just mucolid spores though.
>>
>>44694741
maybe if you stopped being a whiny faggot we'd stop getting mad at you
>>
>>44694779
ok
>>
I've talked to some guys IRL and have finalized my 1000 point Smelldar list.
>HQ
Farseer with Singing Spear
>TROOPS
20 Guardians, 2 Scatter Lasers, Warlock
10 Guardians, 1 Scatter Laser, Warlock
10 Guardians, 1 Scatter Laser
5 Rangers
>FAST ATTACK
4 Warp spiders, 1 warp spider exarch - Spinneret Rifle
>HEAVY SUPPORT
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery - 3 Vibro Cannons
Wraithlord, 2 flamers, brightlance, ghostglaive.

It fits how I want to play, seems like fun to play and doesn't see too ridiculously bullshit.
If I expand to larger points, Ill probably give the Support Batterys the D weapons though.
Both 10 man guardians, rangers and support battery will camp the back, 1 of the ten man guardians will slowly move up the board leaving the rangers defensive near end game to grab an objective mid table or if maelstorm requires it, sniping with snipers, vibros and scatter laser while the 20 man guardians, warp spiders (who will deepstrike behind armour or monsters and glance/shoot it to death) and wraithlord will move up in a nice big blob and dakka the shit out of everything. Suggestions for physic spells for the Farseer? How's this look?
>>
>>44694592
>>44694698
In my opinion the Tau are the ones that suffer the most the staleness of the setting.
A great part of their appeal is that they are the army in the middle of a technological revolution that will never reach it's higher results because to do that they need the setting to advance and reach the actual year 40'000
>>
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>>44694620
Kekarooni
>>
>>44694837

Don't worry, they keep drastically retconning their tech older and coming up with new current stuff.
>>
>>44694592
Technically that's the direction they're moving towards. Rail Rifles were superduper experimental weaponry back then, much like cyclic Ion Blasters were 1 per detachment.

As time goes on, tau tech advances enough that they make this shit more widespread. wouldn't be surprised in Fire Warriors got watered down Rail Rifles as a basic weapon (fluffed to be because of mass production issues),

Or they make another FW variant with all Rail Rifles. Breachers are Close quarters, Strikes are medium range gunline, then you have the rail snipers.
>>
>railrifles gatling gun
>>
>>44694492
I actually think CSM'd be best if they were given a Chapter Tactics-esque system where you picked the 'theme' (Worship of the Big Four individually, Mix of all four, Chaos Undivided, Terror Tactics, Infiltration + Cults, etc) of your warband, with one theme applying to each of the legions. Renegades just pick whichever one applies most closely to their warband. The imperial solution of 400 different codexes is a bad one.
>>
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What the hell model is this? I notice it has psycannons and something converted out of plasticard. Maybe it's something custom, but is there a superheavy tank that can take psycannon sponsons?
>>
>>44695025
Man I would love me some chapter tactics. ATM I keep running Crimson Slaughter CADs just for the Harbingers of the Tormented special rule being the closest thing to Chapter Tactics in CSM.
>>
>>44695036

It's just someone fucking with their Bananablade. There's a Sisters Stormlord in a cabinet at my local GW. Doesn't mean it's a real model.
>>
>>44694698
What if Meks gave meganobs Snazzguns?
>>
>>44695068
Every argument that applies to why CSM shouldn't have it applies just as strongly to why SM shouldn't have it. Hell, I'd be willing to bet there's more variation between a Word Bearers Warband and an Alpha Legion/Night Lords/Death Guard one than there are between the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines.

Just makes no goddamn sense why they'd be removed.
>>
+ HQ +

Company Command Squad [Flak Armour, 2x Veteran w/ Lasgun, 2x Veteran w/ Plasma Gun]
Chimera [Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser]
Company Commander [Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour, HoC: Wrath of Cadia, Orders]
Laspistol [Laspistol]

+ Troops +

Veterans [Grenadiers, Taurox, 7x Veteran w/ Lasgun, 2x Veteran w/ Plasma Gun]
Veteran Sergeant [Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol]

Veterans [Flak Armour for Squad, 7x Veteran w/ Lasgun]
Chimera [Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser]
Veteran Autocannon Team [Lasgun]
Veteran Sergeant [Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol]

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Squadron
Battle Tank [Heavy Bolter]
Battle Tank [Heavy Bolter]

I have a 750 campaign game coming up next Saturday. My Vets that have a heavy weapon have relentless. I have to take 2 vets, 2 tanks and a CCS. Is there some point shifting that I can do to make this a more balanced list?
>>
>>44695151
I agree that I'd love to see more ways to distinguish individual CSM armies, but I can understand people not wanting "Traitor Tactics" since that does make them more similar to SM.
I started playing CSM with the second 3rd edition and 4th edition codex so honestly I've never played with a cult army, but they sound really cool.
Even some kind of "Traitor Doctrines" style thing where you pick 2 bonuses and 1 downside would be cool.

When I started playing again last year I was initially playing Tau but I've since moved back to CSM, probably because they have really cool characterization.
>>
>>44694837

Well, they can always introduce railguns as specialist weapons for firewarriors or make Markerlights lighter later on. In any case, the Tau have more urgency in developing higher tech when it comes to interstellar craft and weapons of mass destruction.
>>
>>44694833
"Big guns" on wraithlords are overcosted and not of use once it's stuck in where it belongs, keep it cheap.

Why the wonky guardian squads?

DON'T blob you spider up near friendlies, enemies can use templates to target the other friendly and deny spider's flickerjump since they are not the target.

As for the farseer, Divination.
Eldar's own lore has a lot of offense spells that are best used from a jetbike.
>>
>>44695209
There is no reason to run the leman russes as a single squadron. Separate them
>>
>>44694837

I bet that breachers will increase the range of their blasters and get some close-combat weapon like tazers or something of the style. In any case, you want to keep infantry weapon reliable and cheap. Left the high-tech toys for bigger suits.
>>
>>44695422
I can only get one Heavy weapon slot for this next game. So would it be better make them different tanks or just run one?
>>
>>44695323
Why not give tactics for undivided, each god, and one or two big traitor chapters?
>>
>>44695483
Can you take a second Hq? Taking them as a Tank commander basically gives you split fire on them for 30 points.
>>
>>44695323
I think CSM should incorporate a bit of daemon randomness with the structure that SM provide, the way that the Path of Glory supplement allows you to create a warband seems like the type of thing that would be nice. I think we might see something closer to Tzeench, Nurgle and Slaneesh Daemonkin represent the individual gods with CSM being a mixed force; that, however, depends on if GW liked the way KDK played out.
>>
>>44695495
Because then the 6 traitor legion that received a tactic would complain
>>
>>44695341
>"Big guns" on wraithlords are overcosted and not of use once it's stuck in where it belongs

What do you recommend and why?
>Why the wonky guardian squads?

My original plan was 2 squads of 20, but I wasnt sure that would work. Is 2 squads of twenty preferable to a squad of 20 and 10 and 10?
>DON'T blob you spider up near friendlies

I might have worded that wrong, they'd deep strike from behind the enemy, a far away from my models, definitely more than the 12 inch scatter can reach them.
>Eldar's own lore has a lot of offense spells that are best used from a jetbike.

Shouldnt I only take a jetbike if I have jetbike troops? Is he still viable if I attach him to my guardians?
>>
>>44695525
I have to keep 1 CCS 2 Vets 1 Heavy Support. and I can take either 1 Fast Attack or 1 Elite choice. So my hands are kinda tied on what I can do.
>>
>>44695526
Was KDK a success? I personally wasn't super interested (I like the psychic phase), though I was tempted by the Start Collecting! Demons of Khorne as an allied detachment.
>>
>>44695495
personally I would prefer both Legion Tactics and Warband Tactics, and players would have one or the other and not both

Legion tactics if taken would be a lot like SM Chapter tactics. They would be Death Guard, Thousand Sons, etc

Warband tactics would be more free form. Like pick two or three choices from a chart and each choice would have drawbacks as well as bonuses.

>>44695526
I'm OK with randomness in the daemonkin supplements but please don't bring it to the main army they are bad enough already
>>
Does anyone have a link to the Armoured Shield Formation rules? That new Start Collection set?
>>
>>44695588
In my opinion it would end up being a disaster by a balance point of view Yeah, I know that the game isn't balance anyway, but there's no reason to make it worse
It would just end up with many almost useless combination and a couple of gamebreaking ones (like, if memory serves me right, I heard the Iron Warriors rules were in the 3.5 codex period)
>>
>>44695526
I don't know how much I'd like more randomness. There's already the Helbrutes Crazed roll, Possessed's whatever-it's-called roll, Chaos Spaw-the tentacley thing's Mutated Beyond Reason roll and the entire Chaos Boon table.
>>
>>44695701
>>44695526
Oh and the daemon weapons, I suppose.
>>
>>44695526
>>44695577
We're (supposedly) not getting Daemonkin books, and I'm quite fine with that. That's just tethering too many books together around the same shit stat-lines.

>>44695526
Chaos doesn't necessarily mean "hurrr, random tables everywhere" and going that direction is stupid. It serves no purpose other than making the book worse unless you have some element of choice (Like the Daemon book) or literally every option is good in literally every situation.

>>44695670
Ability to pick choices from a chart is the reason the original Legion Tactics were removed, iirc.
>>
>>44695588
Yeah I kinda veered off with my thoughts there, I think CSM should be more SM-like while DK codicies should bring in daemons and their randomness. I'm personally a fan of chapter tacitcs for CSM with aditional flavour coming from the formations but I know not everyone else is a fan of that.

>>44695577
I have no idea if it was, I assume it was a moderate success since it's a pretty solid army but I don't have any statistics.
>>
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>Want to abuse newly found Ork strategy of Blitz Brigade turn 1 charge in a 1500 point game
>Blitz Brigade is 575 points.
>>
>>44695670
that is why I was suggesting the drawbacks and bonuses tied together instead choosing your own drawbacks -- it keeps players in check

alternatively Warbands might do nothing special, but have discounts on wargear or more transport options or stuff like that to reflect how they haven't been sitting around in the warp for 10000 years

>>44695701
don't forget that if you want to guarantee a useful warlord trait you have to pay the 160 point and HQ slot tax
>>
>>44695548
>What do you recommend and why?
2 flamers, sword, go forth and destroy without breaking the budget.

>My original plan was 2 squads of 20, but I wasn't sure that would work. Is 2 squads of twenty preferable to a squad of 20 and 10 and 10?
Since you have a Warlock to buff the units, yes 2x20 guardians with buffs beats 20+10 with buffs and 10 without, in my opinion at least

>I might have worded that wrong, they'd deep strike from behind the enemy, a far away from my models, definitely more than the 12 inch scatter can reach them.
Aight, just making sure, lost my own to a s6 ap3 template shot through another unit yesterday.

>Shouldn't I only take a jetbike if I have jetbike troops? Is he still viable if I attach him to my guardians?

That's why I said Divination, Eldars own lore is best used with a highly mobile platforms or largeish units, remember he can also joing your battery for twinlinking and other stuff.

>>44695600
Formation members within 6" of the tank has a 4+ cover save.
>>
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>>44694044

Yes, but when you're up against a LOT of that inferiour technology, your advantages count for much less.
>>
>>44695701
But randomness is FUN! anon! Look at these FUN! situations that can turn up in the game:
>Roll poorly on the chaos boon table, warlord becomes a chaos spawn
>Roll poorly on instinctive behaviour table, half of hormagaunt unit wiped out
>Roll poorly on mob rule table, several orks killed
>Roll poorly on ork weapon strength, fire S1 shots that do no damage
Meanwhile, the tau don't get to have FUN! with situations like:
>Shoot plasma rifle boosted with markerlights
>2+ to hit
>2+ to wounds
>No armour saves allowed
>No cover saves allowed
>Each shot is almost an autokill
How DULL! is that! Who'd want that predictability, eh?
>>
>>44695820
So its useless against tau and AdMech formations.
>>
>>44695766
So maybe formations would be a better choice then?
For example an Iron Warriors Warband, basically a CAD with +1 HS choice but mandatory 1 HS. Maybe needs a Warpsmith. Bonuses to killing buildings, reducing cover saves and blowing up vehicles.
>>
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>>44695820
Thanks a lot for the help
>>
>>44695772
You can easily fit 2-3 20 man Ork Boyz, MANz, and TankBustas
>>
>>44695772
Cant charge with units inside the blitz brigade for the first turn, says so in the rules for it I think
>>
>>44695898

The Stormsurge has a weapon that has 4d6 shots. Nobody is immune to the creep of random shit.

Also you forgot:

>Roll poorly on C'tan Powers table, strength D a single Grot
>>
>>44695323
I'm not sure any sort of differentiation from loyalists is possible when 80% of our codex is "loyalists but worse". You'd need a complete model redo, with nothing left over except maybe the default marines.
>>44695947
CADs for every traitor legion would be ok I guess, but still sounds like a poor way to represent them and also even more of a pipe dream than Legion Tactics again.
>>
>>44696004
>whining about having 4d6 shots
better than spending 300 points on a lord to have 3 + d6 melee attacks (with a chance to injure himself)
>>
>>44696004
I've always played my SS the way that those missiles WILL only fire 4 shots and there's backup if they need to kill something. That philosofy hasn't failed me yet.
>>
>>44694730

This is the most recent tournament list I know of that won something. He went 5-0, including against Eldar. As you guessed, he was using Zhard.
>>
>>44696004
Still a minimum of 4 shots, with an average of 14
>>
>>44695772
It's 5x av 14 tranports with 4 hull points, capacity for 20 and access to a poor mans battlecannon.

You can have them all full of slugga boys and a PK nobs, a warboss with a lucky stikk and a klaw of his own for ~1500 points.
Can't do much to AV 14, but it'll be a blast and can make most armies look twice.

>>44696002
RAW that means First player's first turn.
So if you go second you can.
>>
>>44696002
How many fucking times are we going to have to explain this rule.
It says first turn, instances of "turn" are player turns unless specified in the rule. Therefore if you are going second on the first turn you can charge.
Scout rule states that the scouting unit cannot charge, the Battlewagons are the ones scouting. The units inside the Battlewagon therefore can charge, if you are going second on the first turn.
>>
>>44695772

Formation: Blitz Brigade

Formation: Bullyboyz

Formation: Badrukk's Flash Gitz

1845 points with 4 Killkannons.
>>
>>44695526
>I think CSM should incorporate a bit of daemon randomness with the structure that SM provide
Great, more random tables
>>
>>44696143
lmao calm down its not like he'd win with orks if he could assault first turn anyways
>>
>>44695959
Would love to see this list if you've got any floating about.

>>44696002
First turn RAW means first player turn so if you go second you can charge.

>>44696085
Same question posed, you got any list in the 1500 point range? Feel like with the Blitz you're painted into 4th edition tactics of mass power klaws.
>>
>>44696145
Not much use in a 1500 point game though.
>>
>>44696068

Wasn't whining, at least not from a stats perspective. I don't even own one of the stupid things. Just saying that the idiotic randomness is creeping everywhere.

Everything about the Stormsurge's stats are a clusterfuck of stupidity, regardless of the final result being OP. It reads like they just threw random numbers together with no design logic.
>>
Any world on what/when the next release will be? Sorry for my ignorance.
>>
>>44696228
they wanted another big expensive tau kit to sell, but they knew it had to be overpowered of the little shits would throw a fit
>>
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Has anyone got that new IG battleforce formation? I'm yet to see it circulated.
>>
>>44696251
Space Wolves something in February.
>>
>>44696166
im aware
>>
>>44696285
Anyone within 6" of the tank has 4+ cover
>>
>>44696288
Really? Why? Is there a source on this?
>>
>>44696251
There are rumors about Tyranids this quadrimestre and a single rumor, but from a source that was right 100% of times for Space Wolves (we don't know what, if it means a model "Tyranid-like" or a complete remake of the codex) for february
>>
>>44696169
>Same question posed, you got any list in the 1500 point range?

I play 1850 myself so not really.

>>44696285
see >>44695820

1 russ, 1 commissar, 1 heavy weapon team, one infantry squad
>>
>>44696063
Yes, CSM are weird in that their whole identity is like, nega-marines but marines have so many armies that they now do everything. So what are they supposed to do? I guess Warp Talons are sort of a suggestion of what they could be.
>>
>>44696079
Thats pretty damn nasty ork list.
>>
>1 russ, 1 commissar, 1 heavy weapon team, one infantry squad

So no need for a Platoon Command Squad in this formation?
>>
>>44696344
I find CSM are at their best when they are doing the things regular SM cannot do at all, like fielding only 1 space marine in a 2000 point list.
>>
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I miss The Ship Moves threads.
>>
>>44696344
Maybe. Though that might be unlikely now, given how poorly mutilators and warp talons were received.
>>
>>44696428
The what threads? Explain.
>>
>>44696407
Isn't that what many CSM players are lamenting?
>>
>>44696145
>Formation: Badrukk's Flash Gitz

Isn't that a 21 man squad?
>>
>>44696407
Fuck you.
>>
>>44696428
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_ship_moves
>>
>>44696460
Never mine, retard and forget you don't have to form them up.
>>
>>44696314
Sadpanda on Dakka with 100% accuracy so far.

Probably to give them a Decurion.
>>
>>44696407
I just like the super rad shit like Daemon Princes and Heldrakes, basically the stuff you'd put on a heavy metal album cover, but I don't really know how to translate that into troops aside from Possessed, who aren't really dakka enough for my tastes.
>>
>>44696363
nope

what you see in the picture is how it is fielded

>>44696454
that particular extreme yes

I like chaos terminators, for example, but I don't like to use them like loyalist terminators because they aren't as good as loyalist terminators. Instead they make great units for either suicide combi weapon squads or else for bullying isolated units

I like possessed. I like chosen. I like autocannon havocs.

Don't get me wrong, I like cultists too. But they should be our backbone, not our whole army.
>>
So, theres a dark eldar battleforce at my FLGS, and the owner says if i buy it, he'll swap the wyches for kabalites
worth it or no?
>>
>>44696503
I heard rumors that they were making another new unit at the time of the codex release, but in the end it wasn't released because there were problems with the moulds/the pieces couldn't be composed right/something like that
Someone else heard of this or it was my subconscious that invented it to calm my need of Wulvens?
>>
>>44696545
Yeah I agree, I like chosen and autocannon havocs too. DESU, I've never fielded possessed. I like that chaos termies come in squads of 3 min, because it's different and tells you something about the army.
>>
>>44696596
>DESU
my t-b-h got turned into desu. send help
>>
Throughout my time here I've heard dozens of rumors with one thing in common, the death of Slaanesh, Whether it's Cegorach coming out of hiding to kill it or Tau somehow paying for all it's plot armor and putting the bitch down themselves. What I'm interested in is how would it affect everyone in the universe if it happened (more specially The Emperor's Children and the Great Game/The Warp.) What do you guys think would happen?
>>
>>44696316
Sadpanda, the 100% guy, struck down the Nid rumour.
>>
>>44696564
Yesh, Wyches are squishy t3 melee oriented guys with only 1 haywire gernade when everyone in the squad used to have them, at str 3 6+ save. Kabalites have long range poisoned shots at a better armour save and benefit more for raiders and venoms, which is how you should be playing Deldar.
>>
>>44696623
welcome to 4chan
>>
>>44696647
He struck down them for January, but the other rumors were just saying Q1.
I'm not saying "Tyranids will come out for sure", just that they can still come out, just in a later period like March
>>
>>44696169
This is how I would do it, although you could drop a few things, Extra Armour is essential to it however if you ask me.

"Blitz Brigade" (675pts)
5x Battlewagon (135pts)
2x Big Shoota, Extra Armour, Reinforced Ram

HQ (100pts)
Warboss Mega Armour

Elites (224pts)
3x Meganobz
8x Tankbusta

Troops (495pts)
3- 17x Boy(Shootas), Nob PK BP
>>
>>44696631
It's not happening. The 'Slaanesh is dead' meme is nothing other than trolling.
>>
>>44696729
1494/1500pts
>>
>>44696729
Cheers for this.
>>
>>44696631 I know that, I just wanna know what would happen if it did.
>>
>>44696851
>>44696772
>>
>>44696811
No problem, I need to get my hands on 2 more Wagons
>>
>>44696544
>I just like the super rad shit like Daemon Princes and Heldrakes, basically the stuff you'd put on a heavy metal album cover, but I don't really know how to translate that into troops aside from Possessed, who aren't really dakka enough for my tastes.
The problem there is that most armies, including the Imperium, are trying to be album covers.

I don't have it saved, but find that pic with an Inquisitor, an IG general, a SM captain, and some other dude, and there's like 155 skulls in the background.
>>
>>44696687
D:
>>
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>>44696623
baka senpai, desu
>>44696729
>Extra Armour is essential to it however if you ask me.
I never roll ones when I have it though
>>
>>44696851
Genie and Jafar do a polka and everyone becomes best friends.
>>
>>44696986
This one?
>>
>>44696623
There's a word filter now. Praise Japanese Moot for this.
>>
>>44697031
Extra Armour is for reducing Crew Stunned (temporary immobilization) to Crew Shaken... the Reinforced Rams are mandatory for the formation and after I immobilized my Tankbusta Wagon on turn 1 ive never left home without them
>>
>>44694248
Humans also had true, sentient AI for over 10,000 years before they started totally wrecking shit and doing their own thing.

The Tau have only had that level of tech for a relatively short period of time, and have yet to actually develop true, sentient AI. They have AI's currently, but they're much more equivalent to dogs in their intellectual capacity (they form habits and can perform their tasks quite well, but they lack abstract reasoning and the ability to ask "why?").
>>
>>44697131
technically tau tech has already started to get corrupted

but that's only according to black library
>>
>>44697129
Oh right
Which one lets you reroll after getting immobilized on terrrain?
>>
>>44697123
Yeah, tell me that's not an Album Cover in the making
>>
>>44695131
>There's a Sisters Stormlord in a cabinet at my local GW

That's not improbable, though. Sisters tend to get that good shit when they want it, even stuff they don't get on the tabletop like Valkyries and Thunderhawks.
>>
>>44697123
Why does the inquisitor have a hawk? What's the hourglass for? Why is he as wide as the Ultramarine, even taking into account perspective? Why is the tech-priest's servo arm just carrying around a skull? Why is there a yellow furry creature growing out of the Ultramarine's dick? Why are they all posing, walking towards the camera?
>>
>>44697183
Reinforced Ram
>>
A lot of Ork logic with this model.

>more fins means better flyin!
>>
>>44697301

Autism speaks.
>>
>>44697301
Psyber eagle, does some shit.
Sanctified sand keeps true time to aid when your perceptions are attacked by daemonic influences.
Power armour.
Repairs/Updates to the servo-skull.
Try not to be a fucking retard
>>
>>44697301
>hawk
Cyber familar.
>posing
Cover album for the sickest beats for the 41st Millenium.
>>
>>44697301
>Why does the inquisitor have a hawk?
The double-headed eagle is the symbol of the Imperium, so I suppose the inquisitor want to represent the origin of his powers. Also, double-headed eagles make rocking pets

>What's the hourglass for?
Together if all the skulls, it represent the whole "dying" theme the Imperium has in it's iconography. You know, "Serve the Emperor today, because tomorrow you will be dead"

>Why is he as wide as the Ultramarine, even taking into account perspective?
The Ordo Malleus inquisitor (I think) can take Terminator Armor

>Why is the tech-priest's servo arm just carrying around a skull?
It's a broken servo-skull that he needs to repair later

>Why is there a yellow furry creature growing out of the Ultramarine's dick?
Space Wolves aren't the only one that wear animal pelts

>Why are they all posing, walking towards the camera?
They aren't posing. They are walking with probably hundreds of kilos of things, they ever walk slowly, like they were posing, or they drag their feet, and they are too important to drag their feet
>>
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>>44694534
>MFW some faggot stole my post and applied it to Sisters
>>
>>44697208
No shot fired, no fire at all actually, not even an explosion, no heads being cleaved or blood spilled no thunderstorms, dinosaurs, mutants, hostile cyborgs, daemons.

Fuck the eagle isn't even eating an eyeball or anything.
>>
>>44697490
The Inquisitor's I sigil is on fire.
>>
>>44697534
With all the rest it's probably just SFX, coloured cloth over a fan or just painted plywood.
>>
>>44697534
And yet the techno-fire fighter are nowhere to be seen, like last time.
You know, maybe the Emperor doesn't have all the answers
>>
>>44697677
He probably wanted it to be on fire.
>>
>>44697373
It's secret Tau technology, you wouldn't understand.
>>
>>44695036
Its just a custom Stormlord. Looks nice but pretty retarded design, it wouldn't be able to hit shit with the main cannons.
>>
>>44697874

Given that it tricks sensors from Spaceships, I believe you. They should make an entire fleet of these things.
>>
>>44693969
Because GW decided everyone should be able to do everything so now everyone needs MC's not just Daemons, Tyranids and like 1 Ork unit.

An Eldar Wraith-construct army should be one of the toughest in the game in all fairness but riptides, stormsurge's and babby carriers are definitely things that should not exist.
>>
>>44697943
Riptides should exist, however they should be walkers.
>>
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>Start Collecting Tau! box has eight drones along with everything else
Ha ha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>44696079
>>44694730
It's basically a very fluffy Evil Sunz list.
>>
>>44698009
>however they should be walkers.
>however GW should have decent walker rules, so they can apply them to more units.
FIFY
>>
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>>44697943
>Dying race with limited forces struggling to surive
>Represented by having bargin deals point values on everything.
>>
>>44697943

Stormsurges should exist, but redesigned with a closed cabin, no secondary turret and destroyer missiles on its back. Also, it should look like Metal Gear.
>>
>>44698094
I wouldn't mind a missile themed, scaled down, Taunar.
>>
>>44698094
>Also, it should look like Metal Gear.
>yfw Sly Marbo
>>
>>44698075
Yep.

Heavy walkers should be a automatic - 1 to the table.
>>
>>44698133
Table shouldn't even bloody exist.

>Snapfire
>Snapfire can't move
>Lose your weapons and become useless in certain walker cases
>Lose your ability to move full stop
>Blow yourself up even from full HP and a single pen.

Moronic. Want to know why Superheavies are so good? Because they ignore that piece of shit.
>>
>>44698077
There's a reason Warhammer is dying.

Because GW is an asshat with good costumer service
>>
What is the difference between a walker and a MC in the fluff? Walkers are machines? So why are a bunch of Tau stuff MCs? And MCs get FNP and IW and can't explode with the shitty hull point system.
/kindabutthurt
>>
>>44695772
Don't bother, it's a shit strategy anyway.

Spending 575 points Battlewagons in order to have a turn 1 charge 50% of the time is something only an Ork player would think is good.
>>
>>44698133
Thoughts on needs to be 2 over to pen for heavy walkers?
>>
>>44698187
My bad, better to spend 575 points on units that get removed turn 1 instead.
>>
>>44698163
Explodes and Immobilized should exist. But the rest shouldn't.
>>
>>44698228
Everything should have instant death against vehicles but only a select few things against MC's?

Why?
>>
I miss the days when IG had something special about them.

Army know for fuck-hueg tanks?
>Eldar get flying ones that do 2-3x the damage for half the price

Army known for artillery?
>GCs and MCs and Missile spam across the board

Horde army?
>1/several

Tank Company?
>Skimmers/flyers everywhere that carry better weapons
>Using AV in this edition

Army that relies on moving men from cover to cover with little in the way of invul/fnp?
>Implying you would get those saves anyways.
>>
>>44698167

I think that the difference is that they got brain-interfaces instead of buttons or levers.
>>
>>44698268
>Everything
That can pen it and have ap2 or better.
Because they are immune to anything not designed to kill tanks, and MCs can die to conscripts.
It's just a matter of points balance.
>>
>>44698268
Haywire shouldn't be able to blow up a 3 "wound" model with 2 good die rolls. Or the melta rule shitting on some armies and being pretty useless vs others.
>>
>>44698289
Dreadnaughts, Deff dredds and hellbrutes are walkers and have brain interface.
>>
>>44698289
Dreadnaughts have buttons and levers?

Deff Dreads are literally Orks welded and hardwired into their machines.

Maulerfiends and Soulgrinders are daemon imbued machines, doesn't get more "interfaced" than that.
>>
>>44697943
>babby carriers

huh?
>>
>>44698324
>That can pen it and have ap2 or better.

So nothing rare then?
>>
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>>44698324
>MCs can die to conscripts
>Vehicles are immune to small arms fire
>the VD chart is fair
>>
>>44698324
What MC can REASONABLY die to lasguns? Most have T5 so you wound on 6, and some kind of invule save.
And no, in assault hitting on rear armor means that most basic meele units can get a pen, and then IK it on a 6.
>>
>>44698343
I think its a matter of how they move, either with the responsiveness of a creature or the lumbering of a machine.
>>
>>44698268
Well I advocate for a 7 to be Immobilized and a explodes to be an 8.

Heavy vehicles (Dreadnoughts, Lemon Russ's Riptides) would be immune
>>
>>44698394
To explodes anyways.
>>
Do Tau actually have any weaknesses? I know they're bad at melee but I've tried countless CSM lists and they never survive to get into melee, and outshooting them nearly seems to be an option.
>>
>>44698289

Speaking of brain-interfaces, is the Battlesuit Neurosis still a thing?
>>
>>44698372
>It's just a matter of points balance.
Having random and punishing charts on half of the shit in 40k isn't a problem, only that they are often costed like they don't have those faults.
>>
>>44698324
>immune to anything not designed to kill tanks
Are scatterlasers designed to kill tanks now?

>and MCs can die to conscripts.
s3 is useless against t6.
And krak grenades work on both walkers and MC's

Be mad, but be factual.
>>
>>44698426
>I know they're bad at melee

2+/3+/4+ is bad in melee?
>>
>>44698426

Lack of pyskers on the table. They got some in their fleets, but no on the ground.
>>
>>44698387
>in assault
kek
>What MC can REASONABLY die to lasguns?
You can finish off a riptide with lasguns, can't do that to a predator, not saying that they are pointed correctly, just that the different weakness do exist.
>>
>>44698426
Never* seem to be an option, excuse me.
>>44698456
I guess not, I'm going off of hearsay, I've never actually seen melee with tau.
>>
>>44698456
Unless it's their to hit and wound in melee, yes.
>>
>>44698009
I just think the idea of a unit that big having a jet-pack and flying around is stupid.

It would be ok if it was some obscure super-gundam kinda deal that tau only pull out in special situations, but you can now take like 10 in a list if you want to.

>>44698094
Actually yeah I forgot they aren't jet-pack units.

They do look kinda retarded though.

I think they should be MC's rather than GC's though.

If a unit needs extra stabilizers to stop it falling over, how the fuck is it able to stomp anything?
>>
>>44698426

No psykers or psyker defences.
>>
>>44698454
>s3 is useless against t6.
Either wrong or hyperbole, read the chart two sixes
>>
>>44698428
Actually, I think that IS the problem.

>GCs/MCs roll for saves
>AV rolls for additional dmg.

GW sure knows how much better it is to be a GC, thats why the stormsurge/ ta'unar are GCs instead of SHWs.
>>
>>44698525
OH BOY 2 6's. And then they get an 2+ armour save. Care to do the math on the chances?
>>
>>44698482
I dare you to try to gun down a riptide in lasgun shots. I fucking dare you.
>>
>>44698539
>GCs/MCs roll for saves
>AV rolls for additional dmg.
But this is only a problem because they are similarly costed. If a Riptide costs more than a landraider, it makes sense for it to be better, etc.
>>
>>44698163
I think the table should just be scaled back really.

1-2 is nothing, 3-4 is crew shaken, 5-6 is stunned, 7 is immobilized, 8 is explodes.

But give certain weapons a bonus for rolling on the table - so melta could have +2 from AP1 and another +1 from the melta rule.
>>
>>44698568
>implying I haven't taken off the last wound on a riptide with lasguns.
Run the numbers on a russ if you care.
(hint: actually not going to happen)
>>
>>44698211
>My bad, better to spend 575 points on units that get removed turn 1 instead.
Or just git-gud and buy some useful fucking units.
>>
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>>44698525
>>44698482
>>44698428
>>44698324

GW's eldar/tau codex target audience.
>>
>>44698426
>Tau
>bad in melee

My stormsurge has killed just as many points in combat than he has with shooting.

My riptide has also killed bloodthirsters and primarks in combat.

They are no push overs
>>
>>44698187
Ah a 5 star General thank god, please tell us what glorious tactics you have for the Ork codex
>>
>>44698610
I did, they got removed turn 1.
>>
>>44698426
>csm
That's your problem. Don't be a boring faggot. Just run eldars and it will be fun game for you and your tau opponent.
>>
>>44698621
>Likes the vehicle rules
>Must play Tau/ Eldar for the MCs
Coincidentally I do have a Tau army, but it's mechanized.
>>
>>44698631
Here is his advice >>44698610

I feel truly inspired.
>>
>>44698642
I was actually thinking of picking up crons. Are they any better? I don't really like Eldar very much, but I figured with crons they can ally together.
>>
>>44698624
>Runs Stormsurge
Why, as a Taufag, honestly why would you run that piece of shit?
>>
>>44698648
>it's mechanized

With a 3+ save. Lucky you.
>>
>>44698668

It can be a struggle agaisnt Necrons with Tau.

Everything having a 4FNP is a nightmare.
>>
>>44698355
GK dreadknights.

Literally the most stupid unit in the fucking game.

Turns GK from a secret order of daemon killing knights to the latest contestant on robot wars.
>>
>>44698515
The stabilizers are for firing all it's weapons twice in one turn.
>>
>>44698676
Get a fucking camo-net or put some terrain on the fucking table, Christ.
>>
>>44698675
4 sD, 8d6 rockets, and sweet pulse accelerator.
>>
>>44698675
>piece of shit

I can tell this is bait so ill bite.

Please inform me why it is a piece of shit? There is nothing it is bad at.
>>
>>44698701
One second let me just buy this in my Ork codex.
>>
>>44698675
Whats wrong with stormsurges? Their output is retardedly powerful
>>
>>44698707
WAACfag why? Why do you disgrace the Tau'va so?
>>
>>44698701
2 markerlight tokens :^)
>>
>like Tau for nostalgia reasons
>get called WAACfag for collecting army since 2007

end this misery
>>
>>44698719

>Muh realism!
>In 40k
>>
>>44698701
>Camo net
15pt per vehicle that gets ignored by maker lights and only works if you stuff them inside of ruins.
Sweet now my demolisher will never be in range!
>>
>>44698718
>Ork codex
It's not as bad as a gimped books options, therefore a problem. STFU, you got an UP codex, not my problem.
>>
>>44698624
My grots have killed hammer terminators, are they great melee units then?
Hell I've killed a Hierodule with howling banhee shooting, are they good anti-GC shooting?
>>
>>44698722

>WAACfag why?

You're the worst. Stop being a bitch about a game
>>
>>44698601
>Lasgun fire can kill an MC
>Just use stronger weapons and units first!!!1!1!1!
>>
>>44698716
Ugly model with boring and broken rules isn't a piece of shit?
>>
>>44698749
>I-I play mechanized
>No shit, even your mechanized list comes with 3+ save
>G-G-Git gud stop complaining.

Moron.
>>
>>44698716
Not looking like shit is the primary thing it fails at.
>>
Is this the hourly Tau bitch time when the drooling retards hate on the Tau?
>>
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>>44698610
>>44698663
>Or just git-gud and buy some useful fucking units.
Jesus is this how disconnected Top Tier Codex players are
>>
>>44698716
>Please inform me why it is a piece of shit? There is nothing it is bad at.

You just answered your own question.

Oh and add to that the rules being shittily constructed and weird, the rock paper scissors meta mentality it helps encourage as a result of said rules, the crap appearance and complete lack of fluffiness.
>>
>>44698624
wait until you run into Abbadon you faggot
>>
>>44698624
>My riptide has also killed bloodthirsters and primarks in combat.
How the fuck?

Were they nearly dead upon reaching combat?

A riptide hitting a Bloodthirster on a 5+ with like 2 attacks has killing one from full?
>>
>>44698701
>Marker lights dont dmg and you shouldn't get saves!
>You can also get great saves by forcing your units in certain locations that are never constant per game and paying 15 points on
>its only fair I get to jink whenever I want
>Im gonna use my 2 markerlights to remove your save :^)
>>
>>44698766
Judging the quality of a rules set by one of its worst codex is just stupid, compare it to a genuine mid tier like IG. It's like saying Sisters are OP because they have access to more saves than you. The Ork codex needs to be better, not everything needs to be brought down to Orks.
>>
Well, a Falcon Punch Commander/Crisis can kill an unlucky Demon Prince under the right circumstances.
>>
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>>44698668
>tfw started with chaos daemons
>tfw switched to necrons until new codex is released
>>
>>44698753
>both one off lucky instances

Its not about luck its about being consistent. Im not talking about a 1 off "its so lucky to kill this thing in combat" its consistency takes off units in combat that you would think "it shouldnt survive".

The only bad thing the riptide/Stormsurge etc have is the fact they have WS:2, WS really doesnt effect all that much.
>>
Why everyone bithicng about tau? My wraithknights never had any problem with tau lists.
>>
>>44698786
It's just mathhammer vs. anecdotal slapfight, or waac/casual pissing contest, or bored nerds with nothing going on in their lives.

Choose any one or all and't you'll be right 9/10.
>>
>>44698058
I don't get it.
>>
>>44698426
Run a black legion list with a Flying Daemon Prince with that ML4 Psyker relic.

Swoop into range of all of the tau and use the power it gives you to unleash an 18" aura of rape on their army.

It will ignore cover and thus stealth-suits and also has blind, which with i2 can suck balls.

Try it and report back.
>>
This thread is proofs on why Tau Faggots are literally the worse. Atleast Eldar fags with their broken ass codex doesn't try and justify their inherent advantage as "fair and reasonable"
>>
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>>44698851
You got me
>>
>>44698869
>get shot by D-missiles at turn 1
>>
>>44698851
>playing eldar
gee I wonder why
>>
>>44698879
>>
>>44698843
WS2 and I2.

>>44698869
Except when all suit's free blacksun filter ignores blind and night-fight.
>>
I think the Tau should get better flyers. This way, they would move away from the Riptides and Stormsurges.
>>
>>44698764
>>44698769
>>44698807

>I got beat by Tau so im gonna go online and cry about it

You guys are the worst. its a table top game ment for fun.

deal with it
>>
>>44698547

Need to cause 6 wounds to get 1 wound through on average. Similarly, only 1 in every 6 hits wounds. So you'd need 36 hits to generate 1 wound.

Given that the standard Guardsman has BS3, that means 72 shots to cause 1 wound, on average.
>>
>>44698876

>tfw I pretend to be one of these 'Tau faggots' to work guys like this and I play IG
>>
>>44698876
This statement is the embodiment of my rage
>>
>>44698876
>Implying any of the shitposters actually play tau.

It's liek it's your first day on 4chan.
>>
>>44698831
Wait? You're saying you shouldn't judge the quality of a rule by how it affects the least "special" unit in the game? Why?

Surely how it effects the weakest unit should be a base line for adjusting it, so you don't have to have super special rules in every instance to mitigate just how powerful they are.

Do you not get that?
>>
>>44698876
It's fair vs other top-tier codex. I would never bring my Tau, unless specifically asked, to say an Orks game.
>>
>>44698905
I whoop tau with randomly generated Ork lists and have fun.

Dealt with.
>>
>>44698905
I run Tau, the stormsurge is a shitty model that's no fun to play with. This is the true, accept it.
>>
>>44698906

Oh, and worst case scenario, it has FNP. This increases the amount of unsaved wounds you need to cause by 33%., to 6.65, rounded up to 7.

Which works out to 504 shots.
>>
>>44698935
SS isnt 2+/3++ after all.
>>
>>44698903
>Most things with AP2 are I:1
>SS has a 4++ and a 5FNP and 8 Wounds

oh no whatever will I do about having I:2
>>
>>44698963
I dunno, concede your game and retry until you get it right?
>>
>>44698953

>accept my opinion because this is the way i feel

lol shut up man

No one is forcing you to play with the Stormsurge.
>>
>>44698905
>Get shitstomped
>"It's just a real representation in the fluff!"
>"this is a FUN game! You should be HONOURED that you lost against my army!1!1!1"
>"Honestly, you guys are prob bad at tactics"
>"None of you guys even have friends. You should play with real people and learn that the game is about having fun while losing"
>T
>B
>H

>F
>A
>M
>>
>>44698927
>using an outlier on the bottom to determine what is an outlier on the top.
kekerino
>>
You know I recently said to a GW employee that I love the look of the T'aunar and would love to own one, but would be worried about being unable to find a circumstance where it's actually playable.

His response was to say he thought it would be fair to play because it costs 600 points to play.

Dude knows full well I almost exclusively do pickup games. I'm in every week looking for them.
>>
>>44698976
My winning strategy is to often keep everything in reserve and then lose the game because there is nothing on the board. It is a moral victory.
>>
what's a good KDK list for tau
>>
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Were the Eldar always broken, or is this the result of the later codex?
>>
>>44698791
I play Orks and CSM...

>>44698631
Use FW stuff.

Don't take any of the shit formations.

Here's a list of the good ones:

>Ghazkgull's bullyboyz
>Green tide
>Mogroks Boss Boyz
>Kaptin Badrukk's flash gitz

Other formations can be fun but generally suck.

The problem with Ork players is they aren't orky enough so they don't want to think outside the codex units and they don't respect the dakka enough so they just want to think of ways to make assault work.

pro tip:
>don't fucking bother
>>
>>44698995
He needs to be beaten with a solid pewter stompa and forced to eat a hierodule.
>>
>>44699015
Dogs and custom made terrain that stops LoS.
>>
>>44697486
How? It's literally an alternate version of the MGSV trailer. But I'm sure you got the archive to back this up :)
>>
>>44699015
Can it move 12" and is in a formation?
>>
>>44698900
Good thing we dont have avatar images
>>
>>44698912
>TR-8R POSTING

Also, pics of army with timestamp or gtfo.
>>
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>>44698990

You're clearly playing with some shitty people.

Im more than happy to not take my Stormsurge if my opponent doesnt wanna face it

maybe you should do that instead of running back to /tg/ to moan abouts it?
>>
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>It's hard to watch something you love destroy itself...To see it fall apart....Shit codexes seem so distance, detatched, someone elses struggle in some far away FLGS...
>It's not until it's our codex, at our FLGS, that we realise how bad it really is, all of us, all of this...
>When it leaked, when it came down, it came down hard, and we fell... we buried ourselves in anger and fear....in the instinct to WAAC.....
>And the real truth is...noone watched, nobody wanted to see, shit codexes are invisible, people turn away from it, they switch armies if they can
>And it's hard knowing the you belong here, that your purpose lies in amongst all this pain
>But somebody has to play the army...to pick it up...to push back....to put the first piece together...to put all the pieces together
>>
>>44699015
The only viable KDK list for anything competitive.

Gorepack.
>>
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>>44699018
Babbies have always cried on both sides of the table.
>>
>>44699046
OK, from a modeling and gaming standpoint, what could possibly be good about the Stormsurge? Do you think It looks good, or plays in an interesting way? I am genuinely confused as to why anyone would buy the thing.
>>
We have this fucking kid who just graduated high school, went online found the most cheese Newcron lists, bought all of it, and now gloats when he beats people who weren't handed 800$ for not being a piece of shit.

He then bought some dark angels. Made them 2+ reroll jink bikers and complains when he losses because he "can't play necrons cause people complain".
Fucking cunt makes me hate this game.
>>
>>44699019
>>44698631
Wingnuts flier formation too.

>Kaptin Badrukk's flash gitz
Really?
I love the models but fuck if i'd buy a large formation of expensive models with 6+ saves.

Token size just for the looks, or even as loota stand-ins.
>>
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>>44699093
>>
>>44699093
I love the stormsurge from a tactical point of view.

Not tabletop wise, but argument wise.

Notice how fast the whole
>tau suits are MCs/GCs to show how more articulate and agile they are
>They are MCs and GCs because they dont know where the suit stops and the Pilot begins.

Died out?
>>
>>44699019
So Orks are supposed to out shoot IG, Tau, Eldar, Crons? Explain. I understand what you're getting at because yeah assault fucking sucks.
>>
>>44699104
I like Necrons, they make funny sounds when ap3 pieplates land on them.

Even more so when it's done with a second hand army and a last minute list.
>>
>>44699104
>Fucking cunt makes me hate this game.

Then he has already won, anon. He's already won.
>>
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>>44699093

I converted my a bit because I wasnt a fan of the default model. So modelwise I sort of agree.

Rule wise its great, people seem to forget the past year Tau have had. constantly being ran down by deathstars and stuggling against knights, now tau have an answer and its great!

I agree the rules for it are bent but I only usually if my opponent is also bringing a bent list, so I have no problems using it.
>>
>>44699164
REEEE YOU SHOULDNT LOVE HIM CUZ I SAID!!!
>>
>>44699194
Didn't you know? BS2 isn't a disadvantage because you have numbers....on turn 1 maybe
>>
>>44694345
They haven't even made good shielding against the now flaming Damocles gulf.
>>
>>44699071
>off of

Wat? Shouldn't it be just "I ripped them off every beloved model"? Isn't the "of" redundant? Rolls off the tongue odd. Maybe I'm just out of touch on grammar so much.
>>
>>44699210
Is the sound a dice roll on a 4+ shrugging it off?
>>
What is this mystical IG list that chews through assault armies before the breathe on my tanks and get free kills?
>>
>>44699117
Same on all those formations other than the Green Tide, and the flyer formation. Not sure why it couldn't be 3 flyers instead of 5
>>
>>44699217
Nice. GW, take notes.
>>
>>44699252
>Not sure

Force you to spend money. Same reason Blitzbrigade isn't 2-5 units.
>>
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>>44699244
Nope, 5+ from ID, oh wait 6+ cause I SHOT THE MEDIC FIRST.
>>
>>44693894
Probably not allowed or something. I haven't played 40k in like 4 years, but I was thinking of bringing out my dudes and playing, but I want to check out the codexes before I commit to purchasing them. Any good torrents?
>>
>>44699018
2nd edition eldar were top tier, if that's what you're asking. And when tournaments started getting big with 3rd, they were the absolute best.

Only time they've been even remotely mediocre was with 5th edition.
>>
>>44699217
>Strugling against knights
>It provides resistance so we need something to deal with it faster!
>>
>>44699276
the medic that doesn't exist for Necrons because Decurain makes me want to rip my nuts off.
>>
>>44699217
Fair point, Nice model.
>>
>>44699279
Sorry mate, no torrents. But if you head on over to the official Games workshop website you can pick up a new Starter Bundle for £50!
>>
>>44699228
Eh a linguistic redundancy.
>>
>>44699117
>Wingnuts flier formation too.
Didn't include it because I personally don't use flyers and there aren't many at all in my meta so I don't really consider flyers.

>Really?

Yeah, MC really helps them out. With a squad of MC weapons it works out kind of better than a single one, as you get 1 reroll per model. No opponent is actually gonna make you roll each ork's shot individually just encase 1 makes all 3 shots and doesn't use his mastercrafted.

220 points is a lot for a squad of 10, but as long as you clear away / distrupt any S8 blasts before their transport gets blown to shit, they can be pretty durable with 2 wounds each.
>>
>>44699303
So its very fluffy. What's the problem?
>>
>>44699329
Fuck fluff
Balance first
>>
>>44699312
Oh, GW are still trolling these threads?
>>
>>44699313
Okay, cool. It's just rolls off my tongue odd. Think it sounds strange. Maybe that's just me.
>>
>>44699354

>balance first

Ever heard of "The Meta"
>>
>>44699354
>40k needs competitive balance over fluff and/or models
I couldn't disagree more.
>>
>>44699279
There's this magical thing called the "mega link in the OP"
>>
>>44699354
But balance isn't interesting
>>
>>44699319
220 plus the character.

But I get your point.

Might even shove a MFF MAN bigmek in for a 4++ and Relentless.

>>44699363
It's a silly thing, like "would of had."
>>
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>>44699359
>he doesn't know about this shit meme

I hope this is Socratic irony at play here.
>>
>>44699391
I'll check it out is it legit?
>>44699406
No I dont
>>
>>44699319
>>44699399

It's 440. You have to take two 10 men squads + the character.
>>
>>44699399
Relentless or S&P doesn't effect Flash Gitz.
>>
>>44699388
It's a game first and foremost
Games need to be fair
>>
>>44699433
GW has never 'trolled' these threads. It's always some anon pretending and jokingly doing it. It comes in many forms, from going "No, but go buy it ;)" or "Here: [insert link to GW]" or whatever.

If you want the codexes, use the Megaupload.

mega:///#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ
>>
>>44699459
Its fair. There's many codexes, that playing well against tau: eldars, crons, sm, AdMech+skitarii
>>
>>44699194
Well when you say outshoot like that you make it sounds stupid.

Obviously, as Orks, you aren't gonna sit there and go toe to toe with shooty armies.

The main benefit you have are more bodies for cheap, more vehicles for cheap and probably the biggest selection of transports in the game.

With a little help from FW you can make units that are cheaper and more effective than counter-parts in other codices.

Gun trukk's are probably the most notorious example of this, but big trakk's can made into orky Leman Russ equivalents.

The main problems with these units is force-org limits which is where formations and cheap troops come in.

Ork Boyz are good units, but unless you're running green tide or some kind of mini-deathstar unit you should be running them as MSU so anyone wanting to shoot them off the table will have a bad time.
>>
>>44699459
>It's a game first and foremost
Then why fucking play it. I enjoy the hobby, but there are much better games out there.
>>
>>44699500
>Its your fault for chosing an npc army anyways
>>
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What's your playgroup like? I play with my two buddies, one plays super aggressive all the time and the other kind of loafs around. Even though we've been playing for a long time the lax player still seems to not know basic rules, like how ws and bs works

Kinda makes me want to venture out to my lgs but my stuff isn't that quality yet
>>
>>44699550
Hey, you can play against other shitty NPC army!
>>
>>44699438
550 altogether, but it's still 220 for 1 squad.

>>44699399
Character is nothing but a tax though. He literally costs 1/5th of the formation and is basically a Flash Git +1. I'd pay like 60 points for him, max.
>>
>>44699539
Because people like to show off their hard worked models? Maybe, just maybe they would like the work and effort put into their models be treated in kind with a game with rules with the same kind of care+affection
>>
>>44699566
I play with my brother and wife.

Brother doesn't paint / build / take care of his models, just buys multiple armies and fields them. Mains GK's / Nids / Chaos.

Wife plays DE and is pretty brutal with bike and venom spam.

I play Orks.
>>
>>44699566
My friend plays Tau and Necron and I play IG blob.
>>
>>44699592
You'd rather the game aspect be balanced than have good fluff for your models? I'd fin it easier to comp rules with buds than fanon everything, but whatever.
>>
>>44699459
40k is a complete package.

There's game, there social activity and there's modelling.

It's game aspect is the weakest part.
It's modelling aspect is solid but there's more detailed, customizable AND cheaper modelling kits out there.
The social aspect with friends or perfect strangers is *ideally* it's strongest point.
>>
>>44699459
>Games need to be fair
No, not really. Games need to be compelling, that's about it.
>>
Not too sure if it is too late in the thread to post but I will give it a shot. Probably a month or more ago I finished assembling my small Space Marine force. I haven't done anything outside of prime them grey much to the chagrin of my opponent. Still can't decide on which chapter to use and have been bouncing between Imperial Fists and Black Templar. Yellow and Black both seem like really hard paint jobs to pull of well, but besides the point. I have also hood that UltraMarines are the strongest chapter in the Codex, and I see why but have no tried them.

What I am working with is the simplest 500pt list I could make without devoting myself to one Chapter.

>HQ: Bolt Pistol, Power Fist Captain - 115
>10 Tactical Marines with a Grav Gun and Combi Grav in a rhino - 200
>9 Tactical Marines with a Melta Gun and Combi Melta - 181 (this is the Rhino my HQ goes with to get close for the powerfisting.)
496/500

What to add? Where to go? What units can I add with staying Chapter Neutral besides troops?
>>
>>44699663
>The social aspect with friends or perfect strangers is *ideally* it's strongest point.
I most definitely agree, talking models, strategy, and fluff with mates is defiantly what keeps my buying shit.
>>
>>44699649
>good fuff
>Implying there has been any real worthwhile fluff in any publication from gw in the last 5 years.

I'm sorry that "My stuff is better then yours and deserves to win because fluff says so" doesn't appeal to everyone.
>>
>>44699478
Got it...
Worth getting back into?

Orks dont look any better than they were before. I also had Blood Angels and Eldar

From my quick reading, sounds like eldar is OP, but just bike council?
>>
>>44699536
>The main benefit you have are more bodies for cheap

Tyranids get cheaper bodies than us, with Fearless to boot. When was the last time you saw a Nid player running huge numbers of Gaunts?

>more vehicles for cheap

SM get better vehicles for free.

>Gun trukk's are probably the most notorious example of this

10/10/10 single shot Str 6 Ap4 large blast at 55 points vs 12/10/10 4 twin-linked Str 4 Ap6 small blast with Shred and Ignore Cover for 65 points. Very, very debatable whether the Ork version is better.

>but big trakk's can made into orky Leman Russ equivalents.

You mean the stock standard Russ that no-one takes? Score. It also comes out at 120 points for 2 less points of front and side armour and being open topped.

>Ork Boyz are good units,

No, they're not. They have zero survivability and aren't Fearless any more so they take casualties every time they fail a test, which they do 44% of the time. Of course you could give them survivability in which case their supposed benefit, cheapness, vanishes. A 30 man squad with 'eavy armour, a Nob with PK and BP, shootas and a Painboy is 420 points. And it'll still get shot to hell and back trying to make it across the board.

>With a little help from FW you can make units that are cheaper and more effective than counter-parts in other codices.

Name one. About the only one I can remotely think of is the Kustom Stompa, and having a better Super-Heavy walker is like winning the prize for having the best shit.
>>
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>>44699714
>for 500 pts sm can take little army
>you can take only single shitty stormsurge with upgrades
It isn't fair!
>>
>>44699714
I'd go Imperial Fists simply because they synergise great with Sternguard and Centurion Devs as well as regular tactical squads, your bread and butter of an infantry based SM force.
>>
>>44699742
No. Eldar are the top army atm. Everything they have is viable and they have some insanely good units like the Wraithknight. Blood Angels are the worst Marines variant, below even GK's. Orks aren't good either, but have probably the best AA in game.
>>
>>44699732
>Fuck fluff, balance first.
>I'm sorry that "My stuff is better then yours and deserves to win because fluff says so" doesn't appeal to everyone.
Chill anon, daemons be random, necrons don't die, hoards do die, etc. I disagree with you logic, not that Tau (and other sues) don't need better fluff. I just care about the theme of shit, who gives a crap if you lose space-Yahtzee?
>>
>>44699760
D-Fucking-Stroyed. >>44699536
>>
>>44699799
>No
No, as in, its not worth getting back into the game?
>>
>>44699760
Not that anon but I've seen a few strong lists that utilise 'gaunts and tervigons to provide a strong meatshield and anti-infantry.
>>
>>44699566
We've

The optimizer who playess what he feels like and find a way to make them nasty to face, though lists and tactics.

The... punching bag, routinely pounded by every other player in the group unless he field his necrons on cheesemode, combo of bad luck and short sighted tactics.

Me, I play... concept lists, I get an idea, try to make it work and either win of bomb out, regardless It was an experience.

The WAAC'er who buys what's good, plays hard, usually wins against all but player 1, usually has rather bad luck too.

The Wannabe WAAC'er who buys every strong netlist, wins a fight against the punching bad and then gets stomped by everyone else because he can only ape the lists, not grasp the tactics, routinely "misreads" rules.

The Whiner, "I really wan to play but X", "My eldar are OP I can't play them", "My CSM are UP I can't play them" "I really wan tto start X army but I can't afford it" he skypes from his new s6 edge/Nvdia-shield while toking away and inhaling brand name snacks.
>>
>>44699742
Eldar can't nerf themselves like Tau and Necrons.

They're permanent OP in this edition.
>>
>>44699818
>is it just bike counsel?
>>
>>44699843
Ok thanks
I did convert a whole bike council a while back. But I also had most of the units available to Eldar at the time.
>>
>>44699838
If you keep baiting that hard you'll burst a blood vessel.
>>
>>44699714
Ven Dreadnought is pretty neutral. Sternguard and Terminators as well.

Same goes for any of the tanks.
>>
>>44699800
You do realize there is more then 1 person with opinions that are different from yours? But hey, if it makes you sleep better at night, heres your (You)
>>
>>44699897
Weather you are the same anon it doesn't matter, if it's the same point. I said I disagree about balance being more important than anything else, that is all.
>>
>>44699886
Tau and Necrons both have access to lists comparable with the mid-tier, and eldar really don't.
>>
>>44699818
The other guy replied for me.... But it's really up to you to decide. If you've already got armies, you should be OK.
>>
There's a local Tau player that likes to spam riptides and now bring stormsurges as well. I cannot for the life of me find a way to reliably deal with them. Any pointers?
>>
>>44700047
dont play him
>>
>>44699981
Yea. Only warriors+transports lists are mid tier. But wait, 4+ fnp and gauss flayers/5+ bs and ignore cover armies...
>>
>>44700006
THanks brew

Hows the local scene in SoCal?
>>
>>44700047
brass knuckles
>>
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>>44699776

Imp Fists does sound good. I really want to field a painted army. However there is know way the model will turn out how I want to because I am a horrible painter so I will probably use one of these Successor Chapters. Leaning towards Subjugators.
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>>44700085
What the hell are you trying to say?
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>>44700047
What do you play?
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is a blood thirster of insensate rage and a great unclean one with biomancy good for fighting tau
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>>44699760
This is just being purposefully ignorant. I'm not even gonna bother properly replying.

>Tyranids get cheaper bodies than us, with Fearless to boot. When was the last time you saw a Nid player running huge numbers of Gaunts?
the nids codex doesn't offer you gaunts with cheap special weapons in various different slots.

>10/10/10 single shot Str 6 Ap4 large blast at 55 points
Obviously you don't take the stock fucking load-out.

You're just making it clear you are a shitter who can't fucking read.

>A 30 man squad with 'eavy armour, a Nob with PK and BP, shootas and a Painboy is 420 points. And it'll still get shot to hell and back trying to make it across the board.
Maybe actually read what I put?

What part of this is MSU?

Fucking dipshit/10

Carry on being a little shitter if you want anon, I don't give that much of a shit about someone as stupid as you.

I'm surprised I actually wrote that much in response so someone who said gun trukks are bad because lobba's suck.
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>>44700142
Necrons but not Decurion
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>>44700162
>muh sD
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>>44700047
Make fun of how stupid stormsurges look and never play him.
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>>44699981
Both the guardian and storm guardian decuricore are mid tier on their own.

Despite bladestorms power they are 12" guns on t3 5+ troops, 24" if you disregard cover and run all you can at the enemy.

War walkers and vypers are good but not easymode units.

Shining spears are almost downright bad and rangers are the same snipers as most armies get.

Autarch is as good as you build him to be.
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>>44700085
>Necrons are required to take the Decurion
>Tau are required to take Marker lights.

A Tau player could run unbound mass Vespid and people would still call it OP.
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Uh oh >>44699760 you upsetted /tg/s resident Forgeworld Ork cuck >>44700173. How dare you insult Gun wagons you filthy casual. Don't you know Dreadmob and Gunwagons are literally the best unit in the entire Ork codex.
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>>44700194
>being this mad because your storm surge got wiped out turn one
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>>44699760
>>44700247
The main problem arguing with shitters is that they use the fact they are shitters to prop up their arguments

>taking stock gun trukk loadout ever
>paying 4 points to give a fucking ork boy a 4+ armour save then complaining that they cost too much and still die easily
>thinks giving a unit survivability means adding on 20 models
>thinks a razorback is better than every ork vehicle
>thinks no one takes stock leman russ'
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>>44700117
If you go Subjugators you can always switch with Salamanders easily, Deathstrike would let you go Ultramarines as well.
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>>44700117
If you're looking for an easy IF successor chapter to paint, check out the Hammers of Dorn. They have a black and gold scheme, super easy.
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>>44700091
I'm a Britbong, so, gonna be a bit difficult for me to tell you.
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>>44700311
Sleep calls, Britbong.
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>>44700247
>cuck
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>>44700188
>not Decurion
I mean, that would do it, if you want an easy answer.
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>>44700085
Just don't take markerlight drones or Pathfinders.

Necrons are mid tier without Decurion
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>>44700269
>running heavy rapetribution cadre
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It would be fun to have everyone forced to wear a persistent identity for a day, just to see if the majority of shitposting and "new/returning player here" bait comes from a few assholes or it its a tendency.
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>>44700351
You can gimp Tau without taking their ML away, running full squads of Fire Warriors is a start.
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>>44700385
And if I run 3 full fw's squads and 2 ion riptides?
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>>44700385
running tanks instead of MCs also works
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>>44700281
Putting Eavy Armour on Boyz should be punishable by death. However I would take an Assault Cannon Razorback because im an Assault cannon whore who plays Orks
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>>44700420
Guarantee my Eavy Armour Boyz beat yours every day of the week.
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>>44700409
I said it's a start, not that it'll instantly make a Tau list fair.
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why is the storm surge a monstrous creature but this isn't
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>>44700546
Something something neural interface.
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>>44700575
>>44700546

See
>>44699164
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>>44700385
I've run counterstrike cadre + armor interdiction cadre. Am I fair?
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>>44700575
dreadnoughts
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>>44700546
Because Daemons already have fuckloads of MC's and they needed a walker.
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>>44700473
Thank you for that incredibly obvious statement
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>>44700546
Because they wanted the Stomrsurge to be usable rather than an Open-topped Walker.
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>>44700647
Depends on who you fight. Most of the time, yes.
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>>44700667
Something something taking the piss out of Tau reasoning
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>>44700647
I'm not aware of their exact bonuses but if you're running formations, probably not senpai.
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>>44700705
I know

I just hate the argument, even when it's entirely sarcastic.
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>>44700724
What about the clunky vs, Gundam jetpack maneuverability one?
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Drop pods can carry any Dreadnought if it's taken as a fast attack, right? Even the FW ones?
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>>44700742
then you can point to the eldar dreadnought and carnifex
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>>44700697
Anything, that's not bring more than one knight or wraithknight.
>>44700709
Shit! Its fully infantry and tank formations. I can't even take ethereal or stealthsuits.
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New thread

>>44700784
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>>44700808
Fair enough in that case; I'm not totally familiar with Tau formations off the top of my head aside from the Hunter and Retaliation cadres.
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>>44699566
We have over 20 players at out FLGS
Pretty much every army is represented, including sisters, DE, harlies and such. Played and win games too.

Then we have 4-5 other players, the seal clubbers. Min max 1850 printout WAAC tourney netlists every game and they hunt for new players to beat, since everyone who's a regular player simply avoids them. They've taken to visiting other stores in the area in recent months.
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>>44699566
We have just about every faction covered. Everyone is extremely established in the game- some playing 40k since rogue trader days. They have massive armies and we have a bunch of guys who play. A normal game is two players on a team (4 people per game) and everyone is fielding 2,500 points. It was quite intimidating to get into considering I had a 1,500 point army to start with. I haven't been playing that long, so my army is smaller, it stinks because everyone knows my army. Its rough when I barely have any tanks (mostly infantry), and the other guys are fielding wraith titans and felblades. I'm one of the few people who has most of my army painted, some of the guys don't paint (or commission people to paint) their armies.
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