Everything but make the game better to keep afloat.
>"Okay guys it's Christmas and we need to make sales. We are clearly out of touch right now, and need to pick up the slack Any ideas?"
>"Let's have huge sales on our products for this holiday season?"
>"That's stupid. Weren't you listening to the brilliant marketing strategists at Electronic Arts when they said sales cheapen the value of an IP?"
>"You're right. Let's just sell some esoteric bundles at no discount on the webstore."
>The company said December sales were below expectations, and warned that pretax profit for the year to 29 May was unlikely to exceed £16m. Last year, it made profits of £16.6m.
A while ago, someone said that Games Workshop's upper management was pretty much incestually convoluted and that they make money no matter what happens to the company.
So this isn't a surprise.
I posted in the 40k general a few days ago that there was talk of the next financial report being less than stellar.
Then I openly speculated as to why it could be.
Of course I was met with a chorus of retarded bullshit.
The more I look at this game and its players, the more I remove myself from it. GW and its retard customers deserve each other.
I'd say it's because people are sick of "GW is dying" every time they make a shitty move.
Nobody really cares, and won't care until something actually happens. Therein I feel is your mistake, assuming the 40k general actually gives a damn about GW's financial security beyond the fact they continue to produce and support 40k.
Oh hey, it's the "just speculating" guy. I remember how you tried to pass your speculation off as fact, and then back-pedalled like a motherfucker when people called you out on it.
Thats it though. I never said or implied GW is dying. I chose my words very carefully. Still there was a litany of replies attributing bullshit to my post. /tg/ gonna /tg/ I guess.
after that interview that Rick priestly just gave you can see a lot more what is wrong with the company. They killed specialist games just because they couldn't get their shit together on the logistics side. That stuff was the best GW ever produced and they killed it because their translation department couldn't keep up.
Not even remotely accurate. The word speculating itself means I am taking an educated guess. A guess.
I anticipated you and your fellow idiots' shitposting, so I crafted my posts to be very neutral and benign.
Big surprise though, you jumped at the chance to call someone a faggot, and completely misrepresent my words. Destroying any possibility of a discussion, and just filled your thread with more 'faggot' and memeposting. Which I suspect is what you enjoy anyhow, because you are clearly not a thinking man.
Given that GW seem to be warning on yearly profits, not just Christmas ones, I'm surprised none of the articles I've seen on this mention the Warhammer Fantasy transition to AoS. I'd have thought the termination of a long term flagship product and introduction of a new one would have been worth mentioning when discussing annual profits... or lack thereof.
There will be articles on that when the annual shareholders report is released in July or August.
Thats when we get to view the numbers and metrics that tell the real story. I anticipate relatively flat profit, and the most significant sales shrinkage yet. GW has been hemorrhaging customers for several years, thats no secret. How bad will it be this year is the question.
Why do you guys think the customer base is consistently and steadily shrinking? And what can be done to stop it?
I think they need to make huge, sweeping changes within the next 2-3 years if they want to remain top dog in the industry. A new attitude toward their customers, and especially their game. Rules matter, and only so many people will stick around for a game thats this bad. There just arent enough stupid people to keep GW afloat while they defecate on their predecessors' creation.
They need to support things better, and actually attempt to go the extra mile, even if the extra mile is just cheap stuff to bulk out content.
Their Warhammer TV thing on youtube is nice, and if they did stuff similar to this in regards to other parts of the hobby I can see it attracting more customers. For example someone writing simple scenarios for 40k battles, basically all the shit they killed in white dwarf.
They don't even need to lower prices or whatever, just make it so people have a reason/incentive to actually buy their shit.
>We released the new <THING> models this month, here's someone doing something with the kit, oh and here's somebody else, they converted <THING> into a <DIFFERENT THING> for their <ARMY>. But yeah you get all these pieces and enough parts to build 5 <THING>s
I am expecting no change in financials but the steady decline, because, like you said, it's be hemorrhaging customers for years. People will look at that and blame AoS, and while that may have been one of the contributing factors, I don't think it's fair to do so, because even if GW decided not to do the whole AoS thing, we would have expected to see pretty much the same report.
But of course that won't matter because people will continue to fling stupid uneducated guess and assumptions as 'evidence' on both sides.
If I was in charge of Gee Dubya, I would try to bring back goodwill. Fix White Dwarf, make the one stop shop for all things Warhammer. Have cool rules ideas, scenarios, painting guides, DIY, informitive articles, and make it cheap, so it's something you pick up when you go to the shop to buy a bottle of paint. Secondly, get hopping on the rules, fix them up nice and pretty. Thirdly, some price drops. Nothing too drastic, like making the Tac Marine kit 10 bucks, but a few cuts here and there wouldn't hurt, especially for books. Take 5 dollars off of the Dwarf Warrior kit, for example. Fourthly, do some market research.
Yes. Courting hobbyists and customers in general. Showing that they too are interested in the creative side of things.
Stuff like that was a key ingredient in building WH into the giant it became. And it requires such little effort on their part, for the potential returns it brings. Why they trashed this approach in favor of cold, calculated, corporate tactics is just confusing to me. Hopefully they wise up and realize that not all of their customers are just mindless atm machines.
>I think they need to make huge, sweeping changes within the next 2-3 years if they want to remain top dog in the industry.
They need to take a page out of the 'Nids book, evolve or die.
I think AoS shocked a lot of people. The 40k and WHFB playerbases had been steadily shrinking since shortly after 6th ed. (In MY little corner of the world)
But when AoS hit, WHFB just disappeared around here. I never see those guys anymore. And Ive never seen a single game of AoS being played since a few weeks after it was released.
So that def hurt GW, in NA at least. I suspect we'll see the more sales shrinkage than in previous years to reflect that. People are stepping away in droves, if numbers on financial reports can be trusted.
Idk. I'd guess its because they were so embittered by GW pulling the rug out from under them, that they either sold their stuff, or packed it away indefinitely.
I know it definitely made me pump the brakes on my interest in 40k and HH. Ive stopped buying their products altogether. And from what Ive seen in 2015, I made the right decision.
I just dont like the direction they are trying to force things in.
In my store is was somewhat the opposite for 3/4 weeks at least.
No one really played WHFB but everyone had an army, then AoS hit and everyone went crazy for it and we murdered each other, then we tried all scenarios and finally a 2 week escalation campaign before everyone just suddenly stopped. From that point on everyone went back to 40k like nothing had happened and anyone who brought it up or went looking for a game of AoS just got blank stares.
I don't know why I stopped, I did have fun with it but it just felt so... repetitive.
Hit on 3s, wound on 4s.
Try a different army and hit on 3s, wound on 4s.
Army 1 has an ability that allows them to run and charge.
Army 2 has a different named ability that allows them to do the same, why not just make it a universal special rule?
I suppose one problem was that player base in the shop split itself in half over the rules, one half of the shop trying to house rule everything to be like it was (no shooting in combat/ in to close combat) while the other half played the rules as they came. I remember every game between the two caused an argument, after the whole "shooting shitstorm" caused half of the players to kick off it was house ruled to be disallowed in combat. Then of course a slaanesh daemon player managed to get half in army in combat on his first turn with a shooty woodelf army and that caused another argument that ended with turn 1 charges being banned which caused another argument et cetera, et cetera.
Another problem for me was there was no more list building, it doesn't sound like much but being able to talk about and think about the game you like when you're not playing it was enjoyable. In AoS there was nothing, just "bring what you have" and drop it on the table and then argue on what sized game and what you can bring and "oh no I don't want to fight that!" "but you get to bring that and it wiped me out last time!" just made trying to play the game awful.
Rick has some pretty real things to say. Everyone should read this.
Also, I wanted to add that many players like to theme and write fluff for their army wither it be 40k or WHFB.
If you asked any player in my store to explain their army and what it's about they could tell you the names of some characters, why the units are there and why the characters work with them.
The fluff for an AoS Dwarf or Vampire army is... "who knows? I don't!".
Where are the Dwarfs in AoS? What are they doing? How are they living their lives?
What happened to individual vampires? How do they live under Nagash? How much freedom do they have to go out on their own?
>Who knows? I don't!
It feels like they took away everything we had to give nothing in return, nothing to build a new off at least. No canon or fanon, just static until "the next release".
Thats certainly been my issue with it.
There's just no actual world building. It's just infinite armies of superdudes wrestling. There's nothing to fight for, and no world building to get interested in.
Definitely the or what part, because they consistently report on company finance stuff. And GW, being a multinational company based in the UK, gets reported on when there's something to report.
>Why do you guys think the customer base is consistently and steadily shrinking? And what can be done to stop it?
This is the perspective of a single store, but I'm not sure anything can actually be done. In the month after AOS hit, GW sales were cut in half. Now it's down by two thirds from pre-AOS levels. This store has sold GW products for upwards of 20 years now and no decision on their part has ever crashed sales this dramatically before. Team Yankee is currently the best-selling miniatures game, it's only been out for like 3 weeks but it's crushing every GW product combined. Before AOS there was a functional 40K community and now I see one game of 40K every two or three weeks by a different lot of strangers each time, all the old regulars have scattered to all sorts of different games.
The number one response as to the former 40K players to AOS was fear. I can't express the terror that infected the local community from that game. There was a strong feeling that the game as they knew it was going to die soon. As a result, the game actually did die here.
Again, this is a completely local response to your question, but the answer is that GW is already dead here and I'm not sure there is anything that can be done to regain the trust of locals to the point of buying new armies to replace the ones they sold. If sales continue to crash the LGS is no longer going to carry their product.
I picked up some cheap mini's just before Christmas in their 'Black Friday' sale. Could have got them shipped etc from an independent cheaper but by the time you fuck around with that to save 5% buying from a GW store made sense. First big purchase I've ever done in one of their stores.
I actually kind of feel bad, I my local store is a warhammer and though I always play in there I buy from other sources. The manager is a pretty cool guy but I over heard him talking about business and he doesn't believe in discounts. The shop is losing sales though and the reason is there's a store two streets away that sells all the same GW stuff at a 10-20% mark down so all the regulars are shopping there.
He's always trying to scare people off other sources too, warning about hidden shipping fees and once told some mother that "95% of the stuff on eBay are illegal recasts" but he still can't work out what's happening.
Their black friday sale was actually cheaper, but not by all that much (I think they were all around the £30 mark).
If they sold them at more discount, then they likely would of got far more sales.
Almost all the UK retail firms that have reported on Christmas this year have said it was pretty bad. They are warning on full year profits, but Christmas is a big chunk of those. Vidya chain GAME had its stocks crash pre-Christmas because they issued a similar warning. The clothes shops are having a rough go of things and the supermarket chains are still screwed.
Majestic is the only exception off the top of my head and they sell booze.
Yeah, high street stores in the UK had a hard time this Christmas. Even black-friday (which obviously isn't as big here as the US, but they still push it hard) was shit for them. And they were all offering decent sales on a lot of things.
>Andy C runs a Necromunda campaign or Piscina IV campaign with a few beers with Adrian Wood et al from the 90's
Jesus I'd have loved to be involved in that guys campaigns
It's not like the money isn't being thrown around (that'd be 2008-12) but that online sales are gradually murdering the high-streets in the same way the big chain stores pushed out all the little local stores.
Though the high streets are not exactly helping themselves a lot, I'm in a town with a population of well over 100k and there's a ton of unfilled store spaces in the town center, and a lot of them have been unfilled for years, and what there is a lot of is exactly the kinda things I don't need because it's dominated by fashion shops and coffee/snack food chains. To the tune of about 3 each of Greggs, Starbucks and Subway. You can technically get everything you need but fuck all of what you want.
Which with online retail, is not something we have to settle for any more.
Which in it's own way is kinda nice because tabletop gaming really got a fat boost by online shopping, back in the '90s when GW had pushed out all the LGS stores in the UK, it was way harder to get into anything that wasn't a GW game. Not so much now, even with the lack of physical local game stores still.
I mean, I know its obvious and people will say I'm trolling, but...
Age of Sigmar.
Its no secret that Games-Workshop was already losing players to other games, and experiencing lower and lower revenue, but Age of Sigmar really tanked things for them, and likely not for the reason you think I'm going to say.
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling well. Its a sad truth. While the game was making a profit, it simply wasn't making as much as 40k, and this made GW's upper management concerned. Why wasn't it selling welll? I'd personally say that it was a mix of bad rules, no marketing, and an entry barrier set up by 8th edition that dissuaded new players from joining the fun, but my opinion doesn't matter here. GW's upper management thought that it was because people weren't interested in a lower fantasy themed game, and that people only wanted over the top design. So they set out to change both problems at once. The problem comes from how they went about doing it.
Rather than saying "We had a good run, but we can unfortunately no longer support Warhammer Fantasy. It is with a heavy heart that we inform you that it will no longer be recieving updates. We have set up a year long campaign called The End Times, that sets the stage for Archon's final assualt on the warhammer world, with rules for the decisive battle that will seal the fate of both order and chaos forever.", they just opted to instantly kill the entire setting in the middle of what many considered a very successful campaign with no warning whatsoever right after having aggressivly pushed their most expensive models yet onto the very people they intended to abandon only weeks later.
This was a bad idea.
GW's abrupt actions left both fantasy AND 40k players reeling, with many unwilling to spend further money on any Gamesworkshop products at all. Why buy that new £100 plastic Keeper of Secrets model when Slaanesh might be killed off soon?
Warhammer fantasy got burned to the ground. Why not my game too?
> Update chaos and orks, kill age of sigmar, can the shit writers and take time to balance the game and play test, make sales that actually are sales, lower prices and boom saved.
Gw would be rich if they put out chaos for Christmas but no focus on sigmar guys!
Except by killing it GW has allowed a bunch of companies like Mantic and Lords of War to make their own versions of regiment-based fantasy battles.
So, once again GW has tried something incredibly stupid only to have it blow up in their face. Bankruptcy couldn't come soon enough tbqh.
Reminds me of Pathfinder/DnD 4e. Like, this exact scenario has played out before, and it ended up in DnD creating a competitor who equaled or even surpassed their own popularity for a time.
But the differences here are that GW still has a very strong IP to grasp onto mercilessly, and that while DnD 5e drummed up support for DnD again GW would let both AoS and WHFB fade into obscurity before admitting that they fucked up.
>For example someone writing simple scenarios for 40k battles
They have been doing this for WD within the past year.
Also in every issue of WD. It already seems cheap enough too.
>If they sold them at more discount, then they likely would of got far more sales.
And lost money.
People don't seem to realize that you have to strike a balance, 1000 sales of something for a $1 are the equivalent of half those sales for $2.
It really doesn't seem wise to me to rely on big discounts for miniatures games because the customer base just doesn't seem to be there.
To be fair all they got rid of where the 8th Edition rules, the real expensive product, the models, can all still be bought.
Kings of War was already a thing, nobody gave a shit about except for the cheap miniatures because Fantasy was still supported.
Even now it hasn't taken over, some people dropped Fantasy for it, but others have moved on to 9th Age, or stuck with 8th Edition or an older edition of Fantasy.
>It really doesn't seem wise to me to rely on big discounts for miniatures games because the customer base just doesn't seem to be there.
Pure conjecture. The amount of people I know who've taken up the hobby only to realise how much of an utter money sink it is, especially in Australia, who then completely drop the hobby despite being really interested. I started the hobby when a tac marine box was $35aud, they've almost doubled in price.
There's a customer base for miniature wargaming, its just in the real world most young adults don't have the funds to throw away on models that cost more and more every month.
By customer base I was referring to the number of people who would go out and make a purchase just because prices were lower either in the short term or the long. If you lower prices and still sell the same amount all you've done is lost profit.
Christmas hit all retail chains hard this year.
That said, convincing yourself that the first word of your company's name is not important to your product is not going to help you much.
Hopefully the new, well-built starter sets and the return of Specialist Games are a sign that the company has finally gotten it's head out its ass.
Nothing short of a complete makeover will stop the tailspin GW is in. As more people 40k, more people will leave 40k. Its a bad situation to be in. AoS is already dead, GW is 40k and HH. And whatever one-offs they release.
The only thing that will attract new customers at this point would be to employ an agressive marketing campaign coupled with something to show people they are a different company.
They are no longer the company that duped WHFB players into End Times purchases, only to pull the rug out a few months later.
They arent the same company that uses rules to drive sales, and leaves its flagship game in a near unplayable condition for so many people.
They need to be honest with themselves about why they are losing ground. If they cant do these things, they will continue to shrink.
>Hopefully the new, well-built starter sets and the return of Specialist Games are a sign that the company has finally gotten it's head out its ass
But then you look at the 40k rules, balance, and release/update schedule and realize that no, their head is still resting deep inside their own ass.
They essentially use something very close to insider trading, only just on the right side of the law.
You're talking about a demographic who openly admit the games are in a shitty state but their "lol plastic crack, what can ya do?" Stockholm Syndrome keeps them locked into the scene.
>Not really a problem
It is if 40k loses customers the way WHFB did. Which is what is happening. Only 40k has a much larger playerbase, so the impact is softer. But it has been steady, and we'll find out this August if that has held steady or accelerated.
>Kings of War was already a thing, nobody gave a shit about except for the cheap miniatures because Fantasy was still supported.
>Even now it hasn't taken over, some people dropped Fantasy for it, but others have moved on to 9th Age, or stuck with 8th Edition or an older edition of Fantasy.
Pacific Northwest here.
WHFB players are still around, but KoW is exploding with WHFB players. I haven't seen a WHFB game played in months across numerous stores. It's dropped off most LGS schedules (though it was already pretty sparse) and KoW is gaining timeslots.
Interestingly it's mostly older 'gents. The youngest crowd I always see with GW stuff, even AoS. I find this interesting because I was that age group when WHFB left an impression on me that carried on into adulthood and I couldn't wait to spend more cash on GW stuff. Yet here we are now.
Four biggest draws:
>working class having time to play
>functional well designed ruleset
>company not encouraging toxic community
>bar of entry lowered
I estimate in a few years KoW will have more active games played than WHFB did in many years, there's a HUGE growth with entirely new people as well.
Fantasy had more problems than that, but I know exactly what you're talking about.
My disappointment with GW reached its peak years ago and I flat out dropped the hobby despite enjoying the modelling, painting, and playing overall. My pops misses having a shared hobby but he's grown away from it as well between not having much time for it with work and being fed up with GW as I am.
The prices are too damn high and the other customers at local shops I used to frequent were real pieces of shit. Would it kill them to bathe once a week, maybe brush their teeth before they come in, or learn some basic conversational skills instead of acting like sperglords?
And seriously if they're gonna charge so much for Tau Broadsides and basic Battlesuits would it have killed GW to design the suits to have some basic articulation to them? Cutting, sanding, pinning, and sculpting to get them out of their stock poses is a sham for something so small yet so expensive.
I'm honestly surprised that Games-Workshop Defense Force hasn't popped into this thread yet. Maybe people have finally realized that GW is in serious trouble after 2015 really fucked shit up.
Or maybe its just past their bedtime.
>the other customers at local shops I used to frequent were real pieces of shit. Would it kill them to bathe once a week, maybe brush their teeth before they come in, or learn some basic conversational skills instead of acting like sperglords?
a) They probably are autistic
b) Either way that's not GW's fault
He's probably just looking to stir up shit anon. Because whilst there are people who defend GW with ridiculous claims there's also people who do the opposite, so it seems like he's trying to spark a sperg vs sperg war in the thread while everyone else is having nice civil conversations about GW's current state in their areas.
It doesn't seem like that at all. All he did was mention that he's surprised the GW IDF haven't shown up. I'm surprised at that too.
If someone wanted to stir shit up, they'd just reverse b8 by posing as one of the GW IDF themselves. Do you even shenanigans?
Well at the very least it seems like he wanted to appear smug and superior, so maybe sparking stuff off wasn't the intent.
That being said, I mainly see the big shitty arguments for and against GW being thrown out in the "GW is too expensive" and "GW is going to die, look at this graph" threads.
That article, by the Guardian (very very heavy left-wing, surprised they liked the idea of OMG MAN BUNKER HOBBY KILL KILL, then again, it was negative, so not surprised, maybe they want to kill it) went
>They made £16.6m last year
>They might just make £16m this year
Isn't that still profit, but £600k less? I mean, haven't GW just created the Specialist Game Development Studio to revamp the old specialist games? Haven't new Bloodbowl miniatures have been seen? I mean, that's gotta cost SOME money right, I dunno how much, but must be a part of that £600k difference.
Next, I thought GW was a publically traded company... and I thought their stocks rose in price this year? Is that bad or good? I'm not into the whole stocks and shares things, but, it was my very layman terms knowledge, that the higher a price, the better the company is doing, and if a price is going up, then it's a good thing and an indication of good things on a business level happening, rather than bad things.
Also, weren't the last couple of years profits very low? Weren't there some where they made losses? Wasn't that a major reason Kirby stepped down and the whole "GW IS DED LOL" meme started popping up regularly?
I need somebody smarter than me telling me these things. I also saw somebody say that WHFB was making a profit, yet I've not seen any official statement saying this and I can't find anything on Google from an official source saying this, so, can somebody help?
But anon! You don't know the news?
Also, you did know the whole "They need to buy more models, so kill off Bloodbowl as you only need 15 models for a good team and Necromunda cause you only need like 20 max and so on blahblahblah" was due to Tom Kirby and his shit business strats? The guy left and GW shares have gone up iirc.
GW might be the most evil company on the planet, but I was genuinely surprised with Ad Mech and Skiitari releases. Something I wanted a long time. I was also stupefied by the 20%-40% off bundles they sold. I grabbed two.
If they keep this direction up, I'm going to be happy. AoS might not be everybodies cup of tea, but now I don't need a huge army to play as Skaven. Which I'm sure was a stumbling block for new players. Being told "No, no, you need a horde of 50 Clan Rats, you better take four of those as well, so you need 200 Clan Rats. Then 30 Plague Monks and this and that and this" or "Want to play VC? Cool. Now you need to buy 200 more skeletons than you actually need in an army to gather more when you cast magic. What? You don't want to have to do that? Good luck winning then, lol! Oh and 500 zombies. Can never have enough of those funny buggers!"
Hordes was a stupid attempt by Kirby to increase sales thinking "if we make the rules so good for having big blocks of units, we'll sell more boxes!" but grognards already had big armies and a couple more boxes didn't make a dent. New players were put off by the sizes and the rules.
It was a stupid decision.
you know, I always hear about how GW couldn't reduce prices without hurting themselves...
GW sells to 3-rd party retailers at 50% msrp, who then sell it for a 50% profit.
When GW sells a product themselves, they don't have to pay a third party retailer jack.
if a third party retailer can sell the product for 15-20% less than MSRP, then GW could do the same and still make more money.
And yes, they sell to third-party retailers at 50% MSRP. I've seen the packing receipts.
Realistically, GW could sell at 65-70% of their current MSRP and still make a profit.
But the market has set the price. People are willing to spend that kind of money, and thus lowering it is unlikely to increase their profits.
The point is. Let us say they reduce it to 70% MSRP. That's cool. But if the sales don't increase enough to make more profits than it was at it's current point, then why do it? They're a business, not a charity. Everybody wants cheaper stuff. It's not like /tg/ buys from them GW directly anyway, they use recasters or 3rd parties.
Nobody would give a shit, everybody on /tg/ wants GW to die. I fucking do. They've ruined everything cool and turned into a Jew Personified. They don't give a shit about us and only care about their shekels.
Playing 2nd edition 40k in highschool you could get a 2500 point Spess marine army for 12-15 models, good luck doing that now, they keeps the same stats but reduce the point cost so you need more, coming next edition 45 man marine squads and 20 man terminator squads
In a max gimmick list, maybe. Wolfguard termies and kitted out heroes.
Your average (that is, 1500) marine list would be around 25~ dudes. Still a lot less than nowadays, tho.
Which is why I wasn't too upset about AoS. I mean, I had 13k at least of Lizardmen, but I got tired of playing the same old same old as new kids would be told "you need 10 boxes of these, that's £500 + £200 in paints" or would pick up 5 boxes of 40k stuff and £100 in paint and it'd be so much cheaper. I mean, a box back in 2000 was £50 for an army.
Technically, if you want to argue smallprint, GW is only £2.50 more expensive than they were in 1990... Except the miniatures are better quality (design quality is subjective, the material outside of Failcast is better) and comes with loads of extra bitz. You can, I believe, make multiple models out of a single Trukk box as an Ork. The Flash Gitz models were a pretty great model set, despite shit rules. So the fact you're paying £2.50 for all that stuff isn't too bad at all.
GW saw the problems with WHFB, caused by Kirby and his money grabbing, fuck the customer, ways. They fixed it as best they could and I have to applaud them for their tough decision. It was never going to be accepted by the oldguard, but WHFB just wasn't selling enough and I have seen no evidence from official sources that it was profitable.
GW seems to be listening. They put the factions in that people wanted. They are bringing back Specialist Games people want. They're releasing new novels and stuff. They even did 20%-40% off bundles, which I mentioned once in a 40k General and got told "hahah, you stupid fucking retard faggot, you're wrong, GW would never do that, the Jews!" in not so many words, then I showed him the leaks and others saw it and were shocked.
It was so unlike GW. If GW keeps listening to the fanbase in certain areas, it might be bearable.
I personally hope for the thing which I'm sure people who don't even like them would like to see, just to see the reaction; Sisters of Battle update. Proper update. New models, new book, lots of new fluff and art.
I dunno man. The whole Chapter House lawsuit thing was pretty shit. I think a new setting was needed for the renames. Yeah, it was shit, but I'm willing to give it a go. It's a fun pick up game and every unit has something cool or unique now, so it's bit more varied. Though I'm sure Elves will be OP as fuck when they come back. That alone made me cry. "hur dur lets give Elves with 6I ASF! Yay re-rolls :D"
What's done is done, gotta make use of this. At least there is new models and all, which, since 9th Age is a thing, means WHFB players can create their own rules for the new models, like those new giant salamander dragon things the Fyredorfs get.
Indeed it would. I'm trying to imagine what /tg/ would be like when the pics are leaked and how the 40k General would be like for a few weeks. Ad Mech was pretty hectic, but SoB would just blow peoples minds. Or maybe it'll be such a shock that anons won't talk about it. Who knows.
But it's unlikely to happen, I don't think GW is going to run before they can walk. Baby steps in repairing the damage Kirby did.
>What's done is done, gotta make use of this.
Or not. I'll just not give them money.
The Chapter House thing showed just how assbackwards GW's business department is. They were more worried about protecting their claim than producing quality products at a price that customers would support. Nothing is still stopping people from copying their style and putting out competition.
Goddamn, that's so sad - it was by far the BEST part of the GW. BFG was great, and Mordheim/Necromunda was the BEST skirmish game ever made.
Perfect size, goofy enough, serious enough, and you could have SM show up and really SLAP SHIT like they're supposed to, and not just die.
More than anything AoS showed people GW is perfectly willing to kill 20+ years of work over yearly profit margins.
That's why people are turning away in droves.
Why play a game that was a risk of dying due to mismanagement?
Why buy $200 models that become invalidated by the next iteration of rules?
Why support a company that doesn't even care enough about its customer base to have an active forum or feedback portal?
At some point you have to say enough is enough.
>"They need to buy more models, so kill off Bloodbowl as you only need 15 models for a good team and Necromunda cause you only need like 20 max and so on blahblahblah" was due to Tom Kirby and his shit business strats?
It's a good thing Priestly came out about specialist games so shit like this can stop.
They stopped making specialist games because of a logistical fuck up which left GW with copies they couldn't sell. That apparently spooked them and they locked down on 40k and Fantasy.
>Why buy $200 models that become invalidated by the next iteration of rules?
Didn't happen with the switch over from Fantasy to AoS.
They took the Fantasy setting and literally blew it up. AoS is is what happened to everyone after Chaos won and destroyed the world. The other part is the game only has 4 pages of rules. Its an overly simplistic mess.
Oh, it was a full-blown cock-slap to the existing playerbase. Forgot to mention the shit >>44659310 pointed out. All the old stuff got rules like "This model gets +1 to hit if you have the biggest mustache in the room." or "You get to re-roll to hit and to wound if you insult your opponent bad enough that they make any change in facial expression." Fucking Magic Unglued level shit.
What annoys me is people who complain there a company they can do what they want with there product ethics don't matter
But its never about ethics its about games workshop having poor business sense but these guys get so absorbed in there fagotry there convinced that's not the case.
I feel its to late for that same thing as what's probably going to happen to windows they fucked up people lost faith in them and no amount of making it decent again will bring people back.
Admitidly I don't know how well windows 10 is doing but I have been paying some attention to gdubs.
They might just be able to pull through if they go all out with the better rules you mentioned, cheaper models and massive price drops on there tools its to late to back out of aos now so the only way is forward.
>1000 sales of something for a $1 are the equivalent of half those sales for $2
Yes but 1000 sales at $1 is more then 200 sales at $3
There's a balence yes but games workshop aren't achieving it.
>The more I look at this game and its players, the more I remove myself from it.
This desu. I'm pretty much decided to switch to historicals for big battles and malifaux for skirmish/sick minis to build paint and convert. Im just waiting for GW to die already so maybe everyone else will learn from their mistake and stop setting their prices just barely below GW's.
I liked how the article called GW the producer of "warhammer, hobbit, and Lord of the Rings models" and said that the stores are called "warhammer" because "that's what customers call it" when GW shitcanned the actual game that was called "warhammer"
Some of the things that have been said in this thread have made me change my mind.
Games workshop is savable after all and it looks like they are starting to make progress in doing so. They still have a long way to go but if they keep up the improvements they have been making they might be able to become big again.
That said there tools are still stupid overpriced that needs to be something done there and age of sigmar was still a massive mistake.
The only way to survive aos is to push forward with it a rollback won't work but the tools are an easy change they can slash those all overnight and see the difrence in profits within the month.
Come to think of it what is Kirby doing now I don't think anybody would be willing to work with him again after what he did to gw
I don't know how your local gee dubs runs but the way my runs is atrocious.
>Be younger me
>Walking around mall with my mom
>See new store called Games Workshop
>12 year old brain kicks in. That's for me!
>Walk in, all the workers say hello and the guys at the painting station say whats up.
>Manager walks up and ask if I want to demo some 40k.
>Tells me basic stuff and what each model is.
>Was battle for Macragge set so Smurfs and bugs.
>He is very high energy and descriptive of what is happening. Stuff like "The space marine brings up his giant chainsword and disembowels the Genesteler! Guts are just flying everywhere!!"
>I am sold so I ask for it for christmas and start up my BT army.
That store closed and all those cool employees moved on.
Now not so much.
My local store is run by on guy that does not even play the damn game. He closes early as fuck on thurs-sun.
I mean hes a cool enough guy to talk to but how can you work at GW and not play the damn game?
Even one of the three tables in the store is a display table for new shit that we cant play on and there are no demos anymore.
GW is dead. Now it is just Gee Dubs.
Read http://unpluggedgames.co.uk/features/blood-dice-and-darkness-how-warhammer-defined-gaming-for-a-generation/ in another thread recently.
You can see how the Sales/Marketing departments being in charge has led to some less than stellar decisions.
This. White Dwarf was what kept me wanting to buy their stuff and play their games. I got into the hobby in the late 90s as a kid, and reading old WDs and rulebooks/codexes (nostalgia aside) the difference in tone is stunning. Back then it was just a bunch of nerds in an office building goofing around all day playing with toy soldiers and loving every minute of it. They would rag on each other in the articles (Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer was the editor of WD back then, now he works at Warlord Games with Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson). The battle reports were as genuinely funny as they were "epic" or "cool", and 1000 times more genuine and heartfelt. The painting wasn't as good, the models weren't as shiny, but it seemed like a fun hobby, and that's way more important.
I haven't set foot in a GW store since the mid-2000s but it sounds like they have become the exact opposite of what they should be, which is an FLGS that just so happens to have the letters G and W out front. Hiring snotty assholes and pressuring salesmen to up-sell product is completely against the spirit that brings people into the hobby and keeps them there.
And of course there's the price-gouging.
If I were in charge of GW, I would choose to operate at a loss for a couple years if that's what it took to slash prices. I would undercut GW's competition, instead of letting them sell lower-quality minis for -5% and kill us because our prices our so awful that that seems like a great deal. Just dropping the price on a bottle of paint by $1 would skyrocket sales, because companies like Vallejo and P3 are only about that much cheaper anyway, and everyone would rather use the GW paints they're addicted to, if they didn't need to pawn their car to buy it.
I would desperately try to get at least one of the old farts back on board, Priestly, Johnson, Sawyer, Gav Thorpe, Andy Chambers, *anybody* who remembers how it used to be, hire him as a consultant and try to at least reattach the rudder to the sinking ship.
I've heard they're rebooting specialist games, that's great, but they need to not botch it. They need to be retro, to recapture the genuine weirdness and quirkyness of old-school grimdark, and not this pathetically juvenile aesthetic, centered around sharp lines and flat surfaces that are easy to paint to a competent-looking standard.
I think GW needs to accept that without adding new brands, they can't really get the kind of sky-rocketing growth they want, that they should stop trying to trick people into buying a new army every year and just make fun games and sell cool minis to play those games with. Try to sell to new players again, instead of pricing them out and just wringing the existing addicts dry.
All the corporate (which, mind you, is an entirely different think from "capitalist") logic that has driven GW's direction has brought it to this point. You can't compensate for falling sales by raising prices. The customer is always right.
>“The studio, the creative part of Games Workshop, had always been kept apart from the sales part of it. One thing Bryan said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened.”
From the horse's mouth, as it were
No offense, but I don't think you really understand how the economics and politics of a publicly traded company work.
If they cut the price on paint bottles for base colors by $1 in the US, then they would have to make up for it by selling almost 25% more paints. That is a huge number, and seeing how customers very quickly reach their satisfaction point for paints it would be hard to reach those figures (you only need so much at once).
Additionally whoever was in charge of such a price cut would have to now justify the potential for HUGE loss for the company. Slashing the price by $1 potentially mans losing hundreds of thousands, if not even millions per year.
So no, you couldn't just go out and slash prices by $1.
From an economical standpoint really the only thing GW can do at this point that wouldn't be a huge shock to the company is to freeze their prices for a few years, lower their production/operational costs and offer bundles at a reasonable discount.
>I think GW needs to accept that without adding new brands, they can't really get the kind of sky-rocketing growth they want
Well both Nintendo and blizzard 2 company's known for sticking to there existing franchises have recently come out with brand new ips maybe they will take a page from there book.
You don't seem to understand just how much there prices put people off they would easily improve there profits if they lowered there prices
Things might slow down for a little while but it won't be slow for long
but consider the following as well
even if they thought reducing the paints by a dollar (or the price of a space marine etc) would generate enough sales to be worth it, that is a risk. Investors HATE risk.
Maybe it is a risk with a huge reward, but they will never know, because the way publicly traded companies are, they will never take that risk.
Remember, shareholders first, then execs. Employees and customers only when necessary.
Well that is true although on the other hand shareholders can see the company failing there not going to be happy either way.
Although I must comend you that's the only non retarded argument I have ever seen in favor of not lowering prices and is something that may be worth further discussion
Again, read what I wrote and consider what this anon said: >>44661368
No publicly traded company is going to take a risk as high as reducing the price of one of their items by as much as 25% for any extended period of time (aka more than few weeks).
Really the best strategy is:
>Freeze the prices as they are
>Lower their production costs
>Lower their operational costs
>Offer bundles at a reasonable discount
So basically wait out until the competition reaches current GW prices (even if just due to inflation), brace for that in the coming years by lowering costs and try to entice players to buy more product by offering bundles.
>Come to think of it I'm suprised a company as desprate to sell product as gw encourages people to thin there paints.
They encourage thinning paints with Citadel Technical™ Lahmian Medium©.
I think bundles are something GW-- I mean Warhammer -- ought to really investigate, and maybe the sales on their most recent Getting Started! is part of such an investigation.
The idea of a bundle is something other companies have been doing for centuries: entice customers into buying more than they intended by offering what they perceive to be "a good deal," even if the bundle includes items they might have never intended to buy on their own.
Warhammer has never really tried real bundles before now. I'll be very curious to see how they do.
Unlike a lot of industries they don't have the luxury of using tools like A/B testing on prices either; they are either all in or all out
given what I believe is the average price point on their webstore (75-150 USD), if their marketing guy put up a ten minute video every week drives even just a handful of sales it was worth it.
Anecdotes are what they are, but I would have bought Vallejo over Citadel if not for Duncan. Incidentally, in price per ounce Vallejo is pretty much the on par with Citadel.
I said "If I were in charge", that assumes that in desperation I have been granted absolute authority by the board.
Basically, the choice is accept short-term losses to keep the company alive, or circle the toilet until you hit the bottom.
And I don't really think +25% sales increase as a response to -$1/bottle price drop is even an unrealistic outcome to hope for.
>>Freeze the prices as they are
That means continuing to circle the toilet. Prices are too high. If costs are so high that those prices are really necessary (highly unlikely, since other companies produce almost equivalent quality for half the price or less) then cut costs to pay for cutting prices.
If this is impossible, for whatever reason, then GW is already dead.
There'd probably be something to bundling things "unintuitively" too, like a bunch of similar things from different armies with the intent that EVENTUALLY people have enough stuff from bundles that they go "you know i might as well turn this into a proper army" and grab the rest of the stuff they need.
Well it turns into a race against time, in that they have to hope they last long enough that inflation forces their competitors to have similar prices, but they have a better chance of doing that than convincing shareholders to accept such drastic price cuts.
I think GW might be clawing their way back honestly. The announcement of the specialist games coming back, the horus heresy stuff, fuck the fact they FINALLY released ad mech and didnt fuck it up bought some good will.
I dunno..give it a year. 2017 I'll know for sure.
Sales are bad for GW.
Sales really only make sense for department stores or businesses with seasonal stock. Department stores all carry equivalent items to one another so it makes sense to discount your shirts to get custometrs to cross the road from your competitor. Car companies run sales to run out stock that is about to be obsoleted by a new model.
None of that applies to GW. They need to keep thier product overall competitive compared to other miniatures. Its ok to be more expensive (someone has to have the most expensive product in any market), and from the point of view of miniatures GW is close to being on point.
It all falls apart when you look at the rules. AOS fell apart due to a bizzare rules decision that the company never tried to explain to the customers. 40K has been a broken mess for years, but when GW makes it clear that they have no intrest in improving things it doesn't do much to encourage new customers (or to make current customers invest in more models).
GW could turn it all around with a decent 8th ed 40k, +/- a competent reboot of Fantasy. But who thinks its actually going to happen?
>And I don't really think +25% sales increase as a response to -$1/bottle price drop is even an unrealistic outcome to hope for.
The people that already buy GW paints don't need 25% more paints, and the people that don't buy GW paints aren't going to switch to GW just because they have a more competitive price.
But hey, at this point we are both just speculating.
That is why they would need to start selling more bundles to complement the price freeze. The bundles would cut down the prices to a more competitive point, whilst also ensuring that the customers are buying plenty of miniatures.
Customers with plenty of miniatures means they get more invested in the license, are likelier to play and invest time in the game, and also need more hobby supplies.
Basically these bundles should serve to make sure that people are buying GW product instead of non-GW product.
suppose Duncan gets paid the equivalent of 30 USD an hour. He probably makes a lot less than that, but I don't know what else he does when he isn't making painting videos so who can say.
Setting up the studio wasn't free, and neither are the materials he is using.
Let's say he spends about 3 hours a week filming and producing the video, and 60 USD worth of product and equipment.
>If he drives 5 sales of the minimum free shipping price point of 65 due to the video that week
>5 * 65 - 150 = 175
So with just five minimum price point sales, the video made the company money. Not a lot of money, and maybe Duncan could have made the company more money doing something else, but they are still in the black.
they could adopt the permanent sale model but I'm not sure that would be well received at all. (Double the prices on everything, but frequently have 50% off sales)
>they could adopt the permanent sale model but I'm not sure that would be well received at all. (Double the prices on everything, but frequently have 50% off sales)
What, like Valve?
Don't remind me. Still pissed that I got a cease and desist letter over the little online blog me and my friends made to talk about how our campaign went.
Way to scare a 10 year old away from the hobby for a few years.
Honestly bro, I feel fow you. My local store is in the shittest location possible, but we've finally had a few decent managers after strings of tosspots. I'm so happy it never closed.
It kinda drove me away from the hobby for a little bit.
But I think I will make a come back with my Deathwing army and start a tallarn tank company.
if you think current GW prices are based on inflation then I don't know what to tell you. I guarantee you that inflation in the US and/or the UK has not been 25-50% in the past 15 years, and that's less than their prices have risen in the same period. Their competitors will always be able to afford to price lower than them, because they are price-gouging, and not simply reflecting production-costs.
>The people that already buy GW paints don't need 25% more paints, and the people that don't buy GW paints aren't going to switch to GW just because they have a more competitive price.
What about the people who stopped using GW paints because they're too expensive, but would switch back if the price dropped, like me? Also, clearly their sales are not stable, because
>The company said December sales were below expectations, and warned that pretax profit for the year to 29 May was unlikely to exceed £16m. Last year, it made profits of £16.6m.
So, as I mentioned, as countless people have mentioned, they have hemorrhaged customers for years, and the hemorrhaging has become terminal. Staunch the bleeding, or die.
>That is why they would need to start selling more bundles to complement the price freeze.
If they're actually enough of a deal, then it would effectively be a price-cut-lite, but that's probably too little too late at this point.
The writing has been on the wall since Age of Sigmargate. Right now, what it seems like to me is that they are flailing in every direction, desperately trying to find a solution that isn't "Cut your goddamn prices" and they can't, so either they accept the unfeasibility of their price/profit-expectations, or they accept the fact that their company is living on borrowed time. A price-freeze is not going to bring people back to the hobby, nor convince suburban parents that dropping $500 on plastic army men for their 14-year-old is a sound investment, or lure said 14-year-old from his $25-60 vidya.
I can't pretend to know how much of a price-cut GW can absorb, or how unfeasible it is, but the sense that I get from the community and my own inclinations and those of my former-warhammer-playing friends is that there is concensus that
>1.) prices are unacceptable and outrageous
>2) the product (rules and miniature aesthetic) has gone downhill due to poor changes angled at marketing and rebranding
>3) if I want to tabletop wargame at all, there are dozens of cheaper alternatives out there, and I see few reasons beyond nostalgia to give GW the time of day if they wont shape up
This "sense" of mine is supported by GW's sales-figures, and confirmed by the way they flail and acknowledge by their actions that they are a sinking ship.
So if it is truly unfeasible to lower prices, than the company is unsaveable. Since prices used to be lower, and competitors are priced lower, I find it hard to believe that it is impossible, but w/e. There is no other fix.
Duncan is probably making them more than that. He's the best thing to happen to GW.
My friend wanted in on this and was scared of painting. I showed him Saint Duncan and he's planning to start an army next month. He hasnt decided which one he wants to do yet but it'll probably be fucking 'crons.
He loves robots.
TSR. Under Lorraine they viewed it as breaching their copyright and a threat to the IP.
Even if it was just a bunch of kids talking about how cool it was their drow managed to slay a beholder...
I think anon meant that they need to stop raising prices because the shareholders are less likely to get worried then but at this point its to late for it to work by the time inflation caught up they would be dead already
>lure said 14-year-old from his $25-60 vidya
Speaking of which vidya is probably the one thing gw was doing right a few years ago although they probably shouldn't have shut down chapter master unless they were coming out with a similar official title it just looks bad.
Of course its really only 40k that gets vidya
come to think of it, most large grocery stores use this model too
Many consider Citadel's biggest competitor for paints to be Vallejo. Vallejo and Citadel are nearly the same price per ounce for paints bought individually.
Army Painter and other brands are cheaper, but afaik they aren't as commonly used either.
Just cutting prices won't work if it can't actually increase sales. The middle class is going away in much of the developed world and hobbies like plastic soldiers are a luxury the working class cannot afford. In that regard a "premium" line of products for the social class that still has money was a smart move.
I don't doubt it. I was just pointing out that even if Duncan is only making a little, he is worth it.
Finecast is already going away. All their new models have been plastic.
>What about the people who stopped using GW paints because they're too expensive, but would switch back if the price dropped, like me?
Anecdotal evidence, and again speculation. I switched from GW to Vallejo and would never go back. So there's both sides to this.
>If they're actually enough of a deal, then it would effectively be a price-cut-lite, but that's probably too little too late at this point.
Selling bundles at a discount is very different from cutting prices, both in terms of profitability as well as in terms of public image.
>A price-freeze is not going to bring people back to the hobby, nor convince suburban parents that dropping $500 on plastic army men for their 14-year-old is a sound investment, or lure said 14-year-old from his $25-60 vidya.
A gaming computer is easily $1000, a console is $300 plus $60 per game, and more expensive if your kid wants to play online or needs a TV in his own room.
Bundles really is the way to go, basically take the amazingness of starter sets and apply those to every army. If you make a bundle where a kid can get a reasonably sized army for $100, then you are easily competing with vidya and board games.
Also they need to stop marketing the games to 25-30 year olds and start marketing games to 10-15 year olds again. The new packaging is not bombastic enough, nor is the new website or white dwarf.
>Bundles really is the way to go, basically take the amazingness of starter sets and apply those to every army. If you make a bundle where a kid can get a reasonably sized army for $100, then you are easily competing with vidya and board games.
To expand on that, look at Island of Blood. That was 70 models + book + dice + templates + ruler for $100. If they could sell a similar deal for each army and people would go nuts for it.
>I can't pretend to know how much of a price-cut GW can absorb
Indeed its clear prices need to be cut but only gw can work out how large the price cut needs to be but they can't work it out until they admit its needed.
>In that regard a "premium" line of products for the social class that still has money was a smart move.
Then why did
>The company said December sales were below expectations, and warned that pretax profit for the year to 29 May was unlikely to exceed £16m. Last year, it made profits of £16.6m.
happen, if that was such a smart move?
And in what way is selling 70 minis for $100 not a price-cut-lite? It's lowering the prices (at current rates, by about 50%) but only if you buy in bulk, hence the "lite" part. That is, as I said, too little too late.
>anecdotal evidence, and again speculation
Why is it that only the GW fanboys use this autistic quasi-legalese, and in every fucking thread where anyone questions the undisputable genius of pricing the entry-point for a hobby at somewhere around 1,000 USD? Do they grow you people in a vat somewhere?
That's been their strategy for years anon. If it hadn't been, GW (aka Warhammer) would have gone under years ago.
Take a look at shopping malls in the US. The stores in them became increasingly premium as the middle class started shrinking,
>That is, as I said, too little too late.
How would that be too little too late? You would basically be able to buy a whole new army or expand your existing one for just $100.
So now players would have the choice between getting into other games that have less exposure, less players, lower quality and less models in a starter, or go for these $100 GW starter bundles.
>Why is it that only the GW fanboys use this autistic quasi-legalese, and in every fucking thread where anyone questions the undisputable genius of pricing the entry-point for a hobby at somewhere around 1,000 USD?
I think it was pretty clear that I think they should sell bundles so that the entry-point for the hobby is priced at $100.
>But the market has set the price. People are willing to spend that kind of money, and thus lowering it is unlikely to increase their profits.
No people aren't willing to spend the money, its why those people are leaving the hobby.
people way smarter and way more focused than I have done a lot of analysis on this
warning: I pulled this graph off google. accuracy not guaranteed.
Anon agrees that a a flat price drop would be good to he just doesn't think the shareholders would let them get away with it like they would the bundle
I do disagree with that but I do agree bundles are needed.
me and my gf bought the island of blood, a bunch of paint, brushes and some greenstuff for around $150, and that is all we play with, so that $1k starting price theory is bullshit
now the time investment of painting all those fucking clanrats on the other hand...
>Using more clanrats then slaves
>Not drowning your enemy in bodies and laughing.
Yeah nah, unless they make a killer new game in 9th age I will continue to play KoW and buying minis from other companies like Wyrd or momminiaturas for my army. I'm totally burned up with GW.
They really do need to sell some fucking prepainted minis I get the thinking behind not doing so but people would buy them the unpainted would still sell better though (I myself don't mind painting terain but I just find painting models boring)
Its to risky to do in there current state though they would want to wait a few years to get stable again before trying something like that.
I don't know about selling pre-painted miniatures after the whole fiasco with AT-43, DUST, etc., however what about pre-assembled and colored miniatures, at least for starter sets?
So for example a marines vs tyranids starter that comes with pre-assembled models that are colored in blue (marines) and red (tyranids).
What's the difrence.
And looking it up it looks like it was poor distribution that did in at-43 but I haven't looked that much into it yet
Starter sets are at the very least the best testing ground for such things I'm not sure pre assembled is really nesecary but it could work
Still as I said such a big change would have to wait until the company gets good again people already think they are grasping despretly for ideas.
>What's the difrence.
The difference is in that pre-painted miniatures take away a HUGE part of the hobby which most miniature wargamers love. Miniature wargaming is as much about painting as it is about collecting.
By having pre-assembled and base-coated miniatures however you would highly reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to start playing, without compromising the painting experience, especially for first timers.
The idea is that you would be able to go from opening the box to playing a game in just a few minutes and without needing any tools/glue.
To be honest I think that all mono-pose miniature wargames should go the pre-assembled and base-coated way. Especially more competitive games like Warmachine and Infinity where there are loads of people that don't paint their miniatures anyway.
If you cut down on the hobby aspect you're removing a huge part of the reason miniature wargaming even exists.
People already loved building and painting models, warhammer was created as a way to make people buy more models than what they'd normally paint just for fun or for role-playing games.
If you remove the hobby aspect you're left with the game, and the game has never been the best part of warhammer, if the painting and building doesn't appeal to someone, that person is very unlikely to pick warhammer over something like mtg or computer games.
On top of that pre-painted means simpler miniatures (because it gets to expensive to have the chinks assemble the tactical squad before airbrushing it) and then you're just left with ugly toy soldiers like every other pre-painted game.
What you fail to realize here is that Games Workshop customers are in it usually for the long term, especially if they're players.
Sell them a starter kit on sale, maybe have big bundles of infantry. Whoops, you also need three rhinos and some centurions? Funny you realize that about a month later, after the short-lived sale is done.
Changing White Dwarf from a monthly magazine that was slowly declining in quality to a monthly picture book and a 10 page weekly was the last straw for me. Looking at the old White Dwarfs it's so sad what it became. there used to be genuinely interesting articles and bits of fluff and new rules and now it's just pictures
>70 models + book + dice + templates + ruler for $100
Mantic pricing there, which as Mantic proved people do go apeshit over.
2010? Really? I almost would have guessed early 2000's at the latest.
Bottom line is: GW has become stuck up its own ass.
Bundles are not going to bring people into the hobby.
Specialist Games are not going to bring people into the hobby.
Not even a 10-15% pricecut will bring people into the hobby.
At best, people that stopped playing, but still care about GW are going to be pulled back. This is a good part of /tg/ and all the GW related boards.
But that's not who GW really needs to worry about if they want to get growing again.
What gets people into the hobby are shops at available locations that provide gaming space and introduction to new gamers. They don't have to be profitable, they are recruitment centers. They need to be set up in a way that creates loyalty in the customers, then they are doing their jobs.
What gets people into the hobby are boxed games at Walmart, toy shops and other high-exposure locations. Lil Timmy will probably not walk into a GW and buy a box of Blood Bowl. But he WILL come across it in the boardgame section of a toy store.
What gets people into thr hobby are high profile magazines with free miniatures. The magazine deal for LotRSB was probably the single most vital factor for the success of the game. Kids fucking LOVE collecting shit, especially when it cokes with a magazine. The movies ending was less of a problem than the magazine deal.
GW needs to get people from OUTSIDE the hobby INSIDE and then bind them, like they used to. The churn and burn approach doesn't get them fucking anywhere, that's transparent by now.
>It's a good thing Priestly came out about specialist games so shit like this can stop.
>They stopped making specialist games because of a logistical fuck up which left GW with copies they couldn't sell. That apparently spooked them and they locked down on 40k and Fantasy.
Man people are hot about this quote from Priestly. I know it made me pissed when I read it in the interview. If this was really the case then I have lost all faith in Games Workshop. It shows me that they have purposely stagnated tabletop gaming culture for the lowest of reasons. Those were some amazing games and underlined a golden age in GW tabletop.
I'm not saying I liked everything they did. I always thought pitching football to a bunch of nerds was lame (Bloodboll), Changing the miniature scale in inquisitor was jarring. Titan just seemed to complex, but I took the leap with Gothic because I saw what an important game it was for the 40k setting. I feel like I'm invested in 40k because I play Gothic and Necromunda. Lastly I couldn't afford to play all the specialist games GW produced at the time but I did get involved in about half. GW didn't just feel like a game company back then It felt like a game empire. It was a worthy place to invest my gaming dollar.
Odd question? I'm going deep here so give an honest answer.
If you were going to see another company buy out GW who would you like it to be? What company would really make GW awesome again? We are talking good old Golden Age of specialist games.
I think you're right about the magazine thing. It was a big catalog push in the mid 90's that got me involved. Anyone remember the really old green and blue catalogs with the entire Fantasy and 40k lines in them? Picking those up for free at the comic shop was the big reason I got involved in gaming. Not long after that the comic shop started looking more and more like a gaming store. And the idea of table top spaces for people to play games on started to spread.
do they produce good games as well as miniatures? I want to see a return to the good old days of specialist games.
I used to think wizards of the coast but after 5e I doubt they will fuck warhammer any less
I'm not really sure what my answer is now
Nintendo probably could pull it out of its slump
I like them, KoW is a very streamlined mass battle game of fantasy very balanced, and dungeons saga seems a good way to introduce people to rpgs or miniatures like the good old Heroquest was, they also make Dreadball than is basically Blood bowl in space than seems to do well plus a few stints in the skirmishing/mass battle sci fi.
>Obviously. 40k is a 15mm game in 28mm Hurroic Scale
This. I can't imagine playing a game of 40K over 1500 points on less than an 8 foot table, more if somebody has blob guard or something. The sheer amount of space and hassle of playing a large game of 40k is absurd, the scale is completely wrong for the tables people play on and the effort of moving like 150 models and removing dozens of them at a glance.
If you look at 3rd edition armies are frequently half the size and each individual model takes up much less space--compare old to new bloodthirster for example. It is just easier to transport and more fun on a 6x4 table.
40K is an aborted hybrid of Epic and 3rd edition 40K and it flat-out does not work. I'm baffled as to why it's still around.
I just wanna come in here and say Duncan is amazing. I have exhausted about all the painting videos I can find on youtube so it's nice to have someone backed by GW that makes regular content. Waiting for him to do something cool in the new year though. Also I love his tutorials and his method works well, (though its obvious the same techniques are applied on all models). I generally do the basecoats with an airbrush though its nice to see what fully paintbrushed minis can look like.
After a quick review of Fantasy Flight it looks like they really have their shit together. Those guys really know how to put a box set together. Arkham Horror is one of the best board games I have ever played.
If "Games" Workshop is going to be strictly a collectible miniatures company they should really hand the reins over to someone who knows what the fuck they are doing. The creative department at Fantasy Flight must be huge, or are they more of a distributor?
Hey we are talking politics in here, no hobbyist allowed.
>How good or bad a GW store is seems to depend entirely on the manager
The GW here in Scottsdale, AZ is shunned by the 40k and gaming communities here. There is a small group of regulars that play there, but its the most concentrated collection of waac rules lawyers you can imagine.
Aside from being able to get GW stuff cheaper at either of 2 flgs here - the store manager Luke is shady as hell. He's alienated myself (I tried to support him) and everyone I know that used to go in there.
GW is a really unhealthy company, not necessarily financially, but the attitude and culture seem to be about as bad as it gets.
AT-43 died because of a shit-ton of distribution issues. From the beginning to the very end, it was often hard for AT-43 players to get the models they needed or wanted for their armies. Part of the problem was due to staple support weapons or specialist squad members (medic, engineer, demolitions, etc) usually being packaged 1 to a box, and requiring 2 or 3 for a full squad (per squad). Unfortunately, a lot of core squad choices were frequently out of stock too. I never saw a box of Star Troopers or Krasnye Soldaty at my LGS, and I could only ever get 1 box of Assault Golems. Light vehicles were also frequently out of stock because they were cheap in points but effective at what they did.
While they did eventually figure out how to package units better, they could not solve their distribution problems in time. DUST has been suffering from similar issues, though I've also heard they've been having internal arguments on how to handle design and development. Good 'ol Paolo Parente.
Well then, you do what AT-43 and DUST did. While DUST only ever did primed colors and pre-built models (though the primer could be a bit thick on some infantry), AT-43's pre-painted models had a decent enough paint job off the bat to field immediately that also served as a solid base coat, so scarcely more different than DUST's approach. And it was never thick enough to obscure details like most pre-painted minis (ie Wizkids, D&D/Starwars), so I can't really see any complaints there. Where most of the salt from 'pre-painted' came from was from older Rackham players that had grown to love their amazing pewter sculpts. Given that their pewter sculpts were like fine art in miniature form, I can understand why they're upset, but pre-painting still wasn't the issue as much as the fact that Rackham wasn't able to maintain distribution. It was hard enough trying to distribute AT-43 in plastic, trying to do it in pewter would've killed them a year into the game.
But this is literally what they did and have been doing for years, Epic used to be nearly as big as 40k and the skirmish games were never as profitable but they still made some money and they all got shitcanned.
>1000 sales of something for a $1 are the equivalent of half those sales for $2
No it isn't, no it isn't, no it isn't you total fucking retard. In every case it is better to sell the 1000 for a dollar rather than 500 because that increases network utility and thus people wanting your products now and in the future, it increases market share which GW is losing fast and it makes your product line stronger.
There's so much wrong with your idiotic points that I'm not going to waste my time, you're a fucking shill and what's even more pathetic I bet you are actually doing it for free.
> That mech on the right
Goddamnit, GW either gave or took STRONG inspiration from that thing. Looks like a XV25 stealth suit to me.
There's this thing called inflation son that makes money worth less in the future so it's a bigger drop than it looks like. There's also the fact that actual real sales have been dropping year on year faster than their profits which have been shored up by just increasing prices. Money isn't worth the same from very source, short term profits can come at the expense of the companies' future and that's what they've been doing for years. That much turnover would have been great years ago, it would be great for a small company now. For a PLC like GW it isn't good and I believe that when the actual numbers come out they will be in the worst shape of their life and that will have been caused primarily by AoS which is a tour de force in how to shit the bed.
Look at all the major companies and brands that have went tits up in the last 8 years, far bigger and stronger than GW. Anyone who thinks that can't happen here is in denial.
>Thank God I got AIDS because it takes my mind off the cancer
8th's ridiculously big units was a problem that could easily have been fixed, instead they threw the baby out with the bathwater and the mess of AoS can no longer be easily fixed.
I barely play 40k anymore. The formations encourage powergaming, and balance is out the window - its not fun to me. Over the past year or two the 40k playerbase at my flgs has disappeared. There were 3 games of 40k going last night, ours was one.
There were a few games of X-Wing Armada, and about 15 games of WM/Hordes. Then various other boardgames, a few WW2 games.
3+ years ago, it was 20 games of 40k.
I genuinely think its the rules and balance. Its just so bad, Im shocked they are allowing the game to exist in this state.
The problem is American style stack ranking
People on tg have been shitting on wfb purely due to it being 30% and not 50% of sales
Ffs car companies don't discontinue a model because it isn't as popular as their most popular one - if it's making a profit then why mess with it? But no they had to Jew it up
Also - warhammer visions must be losing tons
Except they arent. Thats a line of bullshit crafted to confuse retards like yourself into accepting the terrible ruleset - that is currently being abused and exploited to drive sales.
If they are a model company then how do you explain regular codex updates, supplements, brb, dataslates, formations, Imperial Armor, objective cards, forged narratives, etc, etc,....etc.
Rick Priestly actually touched on this in that interview. Give it a read, then apply some critical thought. You're supposed to examine the facts/evidence, THEN arrive at a conclusion.
Not decide upon a conclusion, then pick, choose, omit, and misinterpret data to support your pre-determined conclusion. You're stupid, but are too stupid to realize it and make the appropriate adjustments. Your life must be very challenging.
>Baby steps in repairing the damage Kirby did.
Except Kirby is still the #1 guy, and nothing gets a green light without his blessing. Who do you think Rountree answers to? Why do you think Kirby hand picked Rountree? The studio guys are beholden to accounting. The fluff is even being influenced by greed ffs. Dont kid yourself, GW is not in a good place right now.
If they were 100% into models only then you wouldn't get 20 nearly identical goblins in a box, you would get one with a million options. You would not get 24 skink clones, or 10 space marines, etc. I actually know people who genuinely only care about the non-game part, and those sorts of kits are avoided by them. They only want the fancy characters with lots of bits. If they really only care about modelers then their approach is actually pretty shitty.
Hasbro would retcon Age of Sigmar out of existence, make the games good and reasonably priced and appealing to nostalgia but their souls would be lost. Also, movies would be made.
I'll take it
The fix for Warhammer Fantasy was simple, but the solution would have been to admit that upper management is incompetent, so they opted to blame customers rather than let shareholders know they had fucked up.
Now they extra can't back down though. They "solved" their problems by digging themselves an even deeper hole.
White dwarf is a case in point
They let the art directors and graphic designers - and often those were women who sucked cock to get influence - take over
So we went from massive fluff pieces about the tau that used all the stuff they couldn't fit into the codex in the first tau release - and then in the second tau release they used the same title for the article but it was blown up pictures of the shittiest line etching concept drawings
And of course they gradually took over white dwarf until they got management to seperat it into visions and weekly white dwarf
Visions is dead - I don't think anyone has renewed subscriptions and white dwarf has made a comeback but the weekly release and not getting it outside of their stores (unless you get the electronic version which doesn't have the extra gifts)
White dwarf is still shit though. It's cheap enough to consider maybe buying while out on a paint pot run, but unless you have a vested interest in whatever release they have that week or if they have a free Stormblast ThunderLighteninger model with it, then itms really just paying $4 to get an ad for minis you aren't going to buy.
me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic,” he said.
“The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they’re brutal, but they’re also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don’t know whether he’s alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.
Proof that Carnac is an idiot
We always viewed the stores as our advertising spend,” he said.
“They’re hugely expensive things to run, but they served as our billboards, our place on the high street and our primary recruitment tool. Really, they were recruitment stations with a shop attached.
“When you’re doing something something as wacky as a huge toy soldier game with goblins, it can be a bit of a tough sell. But when people can see how glorious it is, see the beautifully painted armies and all these people hooting and hollering and rolling dice, it gives you an instant idea of how much fun it is.”
Htf did they go from this to pokey little stores where you can't fit around the table without getting poked in the backside by the creepy store manager?
Yeah, not entirely sure if it was inspired by the Stealth Suit, but the TacArm battlesuit design came after the XV25 design. Though, to be fair, the UNA does have a 'futuristic European' military design aesthetic (think Battlefield 2142).
this is the famous multiquote guy, a returning meme in GW threads
when somewhere someone criticises GW, even just a little bit, or don't agree fully with one of their decisions, this paragon comes, and quotes all those fuckers telling them why they are wrong. usually 4-8 guys in a post
he then leaves thinking 'dayum I told em', while half the thread stares in disbelief, the other half cackles maniacally over the amount of stupidity this guy possesses
>It is rebranding its stores as “Warhammer” – because that is what its customers call it.
Oh, is that why the shop I cycle past every day has an ugly white "Warhammer" on black background spray painted on it like it's a cheap knockoff shop?
>They essentially use something very close to insider trading, only just on the right side of the law.
Apparently gw are seen by the rest of the business community of Britain as a shifty-ass bunch...considering some of the shit I read in private Eye that just worries me.
At the end of the day, if you enjoy the game it's a game that works. Only people who invest way to much fucking time into wanting the game to be "Competitive" ever care about that.
I actually agree with GW here really, because the Models are the part that actually costs money, they should be the part that actually looks good.
I mean really, can you measure how KoW or Warmachine is "More fun" than 40k unless you're some sort of robotic sperg who only has fun when it's some sort of clinical enviroment?
No one should have to safeguard their own potential enjoyment or games against various Space Marine, Necron, Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc. when looking for casual pick up games or fun stuff. Its easy to say 'well don't play with them' without considering the logistics for that course of action, and more often than not 40k communites, despite it being played at large, tend to be insular like any other nerd hobby, trapping many wary gamers with no one else to really turn to.
There is also nothing wrong with competitive play or enjoying it. Maybe you should grow up and accept that there is no one objective way to playing your overpriced elfgames, but there is objectively bad ways of implementing them; namely, Games Workshop's.
You see I never got this "GW wants to sell more than a dozen minis" argument. Every game of all the specialist systems I played your warbands eventually became really large. In a couple of gaming circles I played in we started experimenting with insurgent networks and warbands. Still small skirmish gaming but where we scaled it up to 2 or 3 units. It didn't seem like it would be that hard for GW to scale these games up into the the range of 36 models and a few rickety vehicles. It felt like something you could do really easy with an expansion box.
Then your Necormunda militia/mercenary/cult insurgency could be an auxiliary to your Guard army, fodder for your Chaos Marines, Or combine a couple of these irregular groups to make self styled bandit army or some kind of space pirates. Sure they would be squishy, but they would be cheep point costs and GW could sell mountains of them. The whole idea would be hugely customizable and it wouldn't unbalance the game because the basis of all these irregular factions would always be jobber level dudes. None of them would ever get to the level of power armor or Lemon Russes.
The idea is even easier through the lenses of Gorka Morka. Hell it would just look like your average Ork army.
I can see the counter argument where people have to keep track of every leg wound or equipment variation. But it just seems like a point/currency system could eventually purchase your unit some kind of elite status that would be reflected in the squads stats, moral, and equipment. The original gang would buy/recruit new squads of jobbers that maybe didn't have as much autonomy if you scaled it down to a skirmish level or acted as sentries. When you scaled thing back up to play with the big boys you would maybe have one auxiliary command unit that was your original gang and a couple of jobber units that marines could eat for breakfast. The mere role playing aspect of it would push people to expand their collections
>They stopped making specialist games because of a logistical fuck up which left GW with copies they couldn't sell. That apparently spooked them and they locked down on 40k and Fantasy.
It didn't help that one of the guys that was big in specialist games died, forget his name but remember that specialist games started to fold up after his sudden death.
If GW is going to continue to be such tards with their specialist games why dont they just sell them to someone like the Perry twins.
Holy fucking shit do you have idea how small they are?
They barely have two pennies to rub together to produce their own products, let alone buy out a company.
I'd be interested to know who these companies are and please don't list historicals, they for all intents and purposes seem to operate under different circumstances.
The only company that comes to my mind is Wyrd and their offerings could be deemed expensive depending on how you feel about the money you spend and what you're getting in return. Corvus Belli is another, but they use metal instead of plastic.
So yeah, show me a company that operates similarly to those above, by that I mean also sells product through physical retailers and not just through their own site and other online ones and produces models in polystyrene plastic.
Oh shit how did we forget to take costs into account (just for the analogy that is elsewhere we remembered)
That said it costs games workshop nowhere fucking near what they charge to make things
The thing is, that the biggest issue BY Far does not really cost them much money.
Is it too much to ask to have the game designers sit together for TWO weeks to make a complete FAQ/errata set with point and stat adjustments?
I bet every 40k player who is into the game for at least 6months cries about that.
This is what drives people away. Not new models fluff artwork. They are already rather good in that department.
can confirm that. wish they would rename all stores right away. If you frequent a GW store regularly, you know there are people coming in almost every day and ask for either board games or video games with zero interest in what the store is selling.
Would bet that many of the painted models from the video end up in GWs collection for box-covers and website photo models, so there really is little net-loss as the actual production of the videos does not seem to involve much editing etc.
No, historicals are a perfectly valid example. Lacking fantasy detailing does not magically reduce prices.
Its the same technology and the same level of detail/quality. And historical minis are sold in LGS's.
Okay so if historicals are apparently valid and can work for anything, why do Privateer Press, Corvus Belli, and Wyrd charge prices that are comparable or worse than GW? You'd think they'd be able to massively undercut GW both in cost and number of models required, but they only do the latter. The only defense that I ever see against this argument is that GW charges high prices so its fine.
Maybe the real answer is that it has nothing to do with the technology or quality and everything to do with the number of consumers. That maybe the historical consumer base is larger and more competitive since no one has a monopoly on designs.
Bandai apparently shit out Gundam kits for nothing that are equivalent are better than GW and if true I bet a large part of the reason is their large consumer base.
In the grand scheme of things no one really knows what the fuck 40k or Warhammer Fantasy or AoS are and there is even less chance they know of the games published above. You're dealing with ultimately a small group of people from each of whom a decent chunk of change have to be taken.
You can clearly see this in 40k pricing. The troop kits which every army usually needs two of go for around $30-40 dollars. The bigger kits which you aren't required to buy cost more partially for that very reason, you don't have to buy them. (I don't even think this is the case with Decurion Formations, the core of which usually seem to be a bunch of infantry of one stripe or another and an HQ.)
>work for anything
I never said that. But much of the sales of historical minis is driven by people buying them for fantasy games.
People keep saying Historical wargames are more common yet I have never seen any evidence of this myself.
The Fantasy bit seems kind of weird, unless there are a bunch of small name non-historical games that I'm not aware of. Which means there have to be people actually playing historical games and furthermore just buying models for the purposes of just painting and displaying them.
The vast majority of new armies for the most popular faction in Kings of War are made from historical miniatures. Frostgrave warbands are frequently made from historical minis too.
There are also people who used historical minis as a basis for some WHFB armies.
Because it stopped selling after the movies where over. The company saw a big drop in sales and the sales department was way oversized for the size the game was going to have in the future (quite small). The company went retard and thought it was the game\sales rep fault and declares it a fuckup instead of just saying "well, our free commercials are over, let's resize it"
They really should've been more prepared for the eventual drop in interest for lotr when the third movie came out.
Maybe start re-packaging the miniatures into board games that people can play with. Then slowly over the time phase out the miniatures and keep just the board games. As interest dies out they could then move to online sales only if necessary and eventually kill it when it's not profitable anymore.
DESU that's what they should've done with all specialist games. Turn them into board games, and if interest dies out move them to online sales only. Kill them if they turn out not to be profitable anymore.
Some apparently did realize it was a bubble.
Fear of being fucked over in such a manner again, and possibly the movies themselves, is probably why they seemed to only do the minimum required for the Hobbit.
I'm kind of surprised they actually haven't washed their hands of both and instead have handed them over to FW.
i turned down a free 20 gallon box of badly painted guardsmen and plastic tanks
even if the first hit is free, i can't afford to get started on a hobby that's so excruciatingly expensive
i hope some little kid has the awesomest time playing toy soldiers with them and never realises his army men were created by GW
M8 your typical mba marketing exec kirbybot is thick
Really really thick
They get where they are because of social contacts and family
They cope with all the complicated stuff by having simple rules
If the same thing happens for 5 years in a row it will go on for 100 years at least
If it goes on for 10 years it will go on for infinity
Look at economists from b4 2008 and how people still think China was going to be able to do 10% growth forever or stupid Arab and Brazil oil idiots who thought $100 oil over 5 years meant they could plan for next century on that level
So 5 years of sales based in the films would have been forecast as going on forever
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Indeed Hasbro's not ideal but it has to be better then the current situation
And Hasbro is probably the most likely to keep the brand name especially with them wanting to distance themselves from slanesh
The biggest reason that I stop buying minis it is not because of the prices but rather lore changing and bad rule writing.
I had the hope for GW to improve themselves since W40K 7th, but everything is just a illusion of false hope. They are too corrupted by brainless capitalism. The only cure is that either GW die or be bought out by better company.
Lol I thought kirby was a bastard and now it's confirmed
Remember uk prices include vat but if shipping abroad they shouldn't charge you vat
I believe that you will find that it has been Games Workshop's policy for quite along time to decline to deduct VAT from orders shipped to the USA. And it's not illegal; there is no requirement for them to do so.
So, unlike all those great dealers in the UK who *do* deduct VAT from the order (Ground Zero Games is a good example, but they are not alone), GW opts to keep that money. if they do the paperwork properly, they don't need to hand it over to HM government, either. Good deal for the shareholders (even though they got no dividends last year nor this!).
I ask because I've been interested in Warhammer for a while but never got into the rules:
What edition of the rules was actually good? The creators say 1st edition was a turd in a box, and /tg/ says that 6th, 7th, 8th, and Age of Sigmar are all shit. Was 5th edition good?
I've typed this out before so I've dug it out of the archives. Since this Kirby has gone back to just being Chairman (along with a "consultancy" role that pays him £50k a year in salary IIRC) and they have a new CEO called Kevin Rountree:
>Basically it's Tom Kirby's personal dividend gravy train, since whilst not the largest shareholder (that's someone called Phoenix Investments IIRC at ~30%) he personally owns 17%, one man. As CEO he was calling dividends twice a year rather than the usual once, making himself ~£1.5m each time.
>A while after he semi-retired to the figurehead role of Chairman, he then removed CEO Mark Wells who was trying to make the company more efficient, after all it is a FTSE 250 company and should be ran as professionally as a company that big should. Part of that was going to one dividend a year. Now Kirby is a CEO-Chairman, almost unheard of in real business.
>Pic semi-related, from his "little red book" on management. Whilst admittedly I am no big shot myself at all, the studies I have done in the area tell me a lot of his wisdom is total bollocks, very fearful and conservative. It's a bit like Dianetics compared to mainstream psychology.
They have NOT stagnated gamign culture. Since GW murdered Necro and Mordheim we've got Infinity, Malifaux, Frostgrave, Dark Age and a thousand others, more niche games filling the gap. From perspective of someone who enjoys tabletop games regardless of their brand, GW stagnating opened up the market for a myriad interesting products. It helped that it happened just as internet became a mainstream thing and people could advertise those games better,
They've actively babysat a culture of "it's the players' job to design the game," which shits into everything and makes the community less willing to judge stuff on its merits and reject bad stuff. The idea would exist without them, but they're making it worse.
As I quoted from Priestley up above - big stores with gaming space in accessible areas helped push them
I'm from Birmingham - anyone else here will know they had a big store down form the ramp that helped them recruit lots of players, and since its been replaced by shoes shops and cheap baguettes so the rent can't have been that much
Now it's stuck across a big road in an exposed spot that's not good in the rain and v small
Even funnier they opened up next to a forbidden planet that was selling gw novels etc at reduced price
But it kinda is. They are becoming the core fan base as others leave the garbage fire of poorley written rules that is 40k. Almost all of the normal functioning adults that played 40k here have left for various other systems. Only the people that love this "pay for a new army to win model" and the hard core lore fans are really left. On many fronts those people are unpleasent.