>>44605481 >What has been your experience with them?
Every time I create an immensely popular TV show, someone always comes along and writes a parody of a non-canon self-insert character who is perfect in every way and which is designed specifically to illustrate the problem of bad fanzine fiction.
Or did OP write "Mary Sue" when he meant "poorly-designed character"?
>>44605481 >>44605632 Is that actually Ms. Marvel, though? Looks like some tweenager's clone of them intended to be a self-insert. Which doesn't immediately make them a sue, but it does kinda make it a despicable character. And standing next to Femverine... Wolverine himself is most definitely a sue. Which would make a gender-swap of him a sue, just as much as the male version is. Because what a lot of people forget is that the term "Mary Sue" Doesn't just mean "Strong Female character that I dislike" it means ANY character, male or female, that is generally perfect in every way or very close to it, and generally never fails at anything.
>>44605805 While it is true you can't kill him, you can knock him out and incapacitate him pretty easily. He's strong, but really not much stronger than a extremely fit regular human in the setting. So any of the more super powered folks can just put him in a box or clock him once and forget about him for a little while.
Also, again, he's really not very well liked in the setting. Which is something I always thought was a prerequisite for Sues. Respected sure, but not liked.
>>44605714 >Looks like some tweenager's clone of them intended to be a self-insert >it does kinda make it a despicable character. I don't suppose there's any chance you remember this guy by the name of Peter Parker?
>Play Star Wars d20 >Play hapless turncoat stormtrooper >Campaign's just starting so we're all pretty low level >Balance my character out by being a mediocre shot and kind of cowardly >Plan on slowly building my character's skill and confidence up throughout the campaign >Meanwhile the That Girl rolls a force-sensitive and fudges the shit out of it >Master pilot and engineer >Mastery of several force abilities, despite having no training in her backstory >Implies she might be one of the canon SW character's kids >Always alpha as fuck at all times, kicks everyone's ass with ease >It's only the first session and she's already flying the Millennium Falcon and using jedi mind tricks >Her sheet is so fucking minmaxed the GM throws together a sith to give her a match >She still kicks his ass in their first encounter
The worst part is she's only going to get stronger and even more insufferable as the campaign goes on.
You know, I think one thing in the damn movie could have changed, and I'd not feel so down on Rey. The end. She doesn't just suddenly stomp Ren after he was styling all over her.
He had her, he HAD HER, right until somehow he...didn't. Just the one change of that, have the earth split, and divide them up, without either side pulling out a clear win. She has to go because Finn, and he's aware if he keeps pressing he's kinda bleeding like a motherfucker, and decides that pushing it isn't going to end well for him.
And yes, sure, again, he was shot. But he was utterly dominating her even so.
And don't you start with "But Finn...!"
Finn got his asshole stomped inside out both times.
First time, he shanked a motherfucker, then got styled on hard by TR-8T or whatever his fan name is. Han saved his butt.
Second time, with School-Shooter Vader? Motherfucker was toying with him, until he got in a lucky hit. Then Kylo was done with that shit, and Finn went down like a sack of shit.
That said, I did like how Finn was using his saber. He was trained with the riot club, so he kept trying to use it like that. Just bludgeon the guy to death.
>>44606488 Also >Forces daughterly bond with Han Solo >Acts like she and Leia are best pals THE FIRST TIME THEY MEET >Goes to get trained by Luke Skywalker It's like all of the original characters revolve around her for no reason. I hate her. I hate her so much.
>>44606488 Look if that's how it is talk to your GM. Tell him you feel she's taking up all the limelight and ask if your character can serve as something of a foil.
You're character could be low-key and act cowardly but in reality be a force not to take lightly. Play up your lovable nature and be the guy people enjoy talking to. Heck, ask your GM if you can provide plot hooks via a large network of mysterious associates that your character just happens to know somehow. It's not giving you anything extra and it'll be fun for you to play.
>>44606572 Because I'm really looking forward to having space adventures with the bro-tier x-wing pilot in our party. I think the GM is going so easy on her because he's afraid of being called sexist if she ends up having flaws or is vulnerable.
I once got to see the development of a Gary Stu due to retarded in group drama, and with at least initial resistance from the player of the character.
>Playing a wheel of time set game. >At the house of one of the players, named Terry not the GM, >One of the other players, Will, does not get along with Terry. >Manage to mostly keep it together, but eventually they have a serious falling out, and Terry doesn't want William in his house ever again, which is quite fine by Will, who never wants to see the guy either. >Will's character is killed off IC. >Eventually, we kind of form similar attitudes about Terry (which is a whole nother story), and drop him from the group, reconvening in a local library, a big step down, since we can't snack the same way. >Will gets re-invited to the group, but since it's been 6 months or so, he's found other things to do, he's not as invested in the campaign anymore, and he's not really feeling it so much. >Which is why our DM tries to bring back Will's PC. >But this is a setting where there is no resurrection, outside of a reincarnation thing that the Big Bad occasionally does to his top goons. >DM retcons his character into being a hero tied to the Horn of Valere, an in universe mega-artifact designed to keep some of history's greatest heroes around to be summoned for the Armageddon battle. >And uses a cheapass trick that actually does happen in the books to reincarnate him as an adult, and bring him back into the party. >Game becomes more and more about him and his "transplanted memories" of his other lives. >Eventually fizzles out into stupidity, with Will again leading the charge that the campaign had become ridiculous.
>>44606488 >play Star Wars d20 >GM played a game with a me a few years back and was interested in me bringing back my old character >said I could even have another player's character, an alien that was my best friend, brought back as an NPC >I say hell fucking yes >first quest is one to get my ship back, pretty excited, get right back into roleplaying this character like I'd never stopped >new players have already been awed about my past campaign adventures, pretty obvious from how they react IC >suddenly miss magic lady starts messing with my ship better than I do >What the fuck, DM, I've been flying this ship for longer than she has and it's out of date tech by now! How does she know it so well? >DM just kind of shrugs and mumbles something about the plot >decide to work with this and offer the force girl a job, keep the story moving forward >she just wants to go back to her home planet, turncoat stormtrooper just blabbers on about being unable to face the Order (really GM, this is obviously the evil faction from your last game) and even splits off from the group for a bit >I fucking hate it when everyone decides their PCs backstories separately and their goals don't align >end up rejoining the rebellion again, rehash of old adventure - gotta get onto an enemy base to rescue a damsel in distress and then blow it up later >DM has my character killed off by the BBEG, who he decided was my son all of a sudden, just to add some drama, fuck you DM >DM gives my ship to the force bitch and says that I can use the NPC as my character
>>44605805 Nigga read a comic. Wolverine is nigh unkillable but that doesn't stop every bad guy from tearing him in half to punting him across the city to prove how tough they are. Not to mention half the people he fights are omega level mutants who can kill with a thought or don't need a physical body so wolverine just runs at them 100 times, gets BTFO 100 times or until Scott "I'm always right" Summers comes up with a plan.
>>44606533 Her backstory is also pretty much a mix of the worst parts of Luke and Anakin - she was raised on a desert planet, she was essentially a slave, she lost her parents when she was young.
At least Luke took a good bit of time and some serious training to even hold his own against Darth Vader. He barely even used the Force in the first movie. She's just figuring out how to do all these things without any attempt at training.
>>44607082 >be x-wing pilot >stormtrooper PC helps me escape from the not!Empire >ship combat is intense, we're really working together >suddenly crashland on a planet >GM says I don't need to show up for the next few weeks >mfw I've been gracelessly cut out of most of the plot
>>44607138 >>44607151 Watched it with my dad. He started silently fuming when he realized it was just a rehash of A New Hope with Stronk Womyn™ lead. When Han died he sighed and groaned, but when they got off the Falcon to meet up with Leia and Rey and Leia hugged it out without even introducing each other, while Chewie quietly walked off screen, my dad almost said something aloud, stopped himself because he was in a theater, and quietly muttered "Fuck you, JJ Abrams."
>>44606530 >He had her, he HAD HER, right until somehow he...didn't.
The Force, dude. Sure, at first, he pursued her through the woods, pressed her back, but he wasn't fighting to kill her like he did Finn. He was trying to corner her, then offer her a way out—join him so he can teach her the ways of the Force. Only, he didn't count on her using that Force potential to overpower him so ferociously. And yeah, the Force is OP. Always has been.
>>44606977 >be Forever GM >These two dudes ask me to Star Wars d20 >imokaywiththis.jpg >pretty experienced at this, two full campaigns already >one didnt turn out so good tho >basically rehash the first act of the good campaign to get us started >a pilot and a turncloak are their characters >one of the guys suddenly disappears >nevermind, I know this cute nerd chick >ask her if she wants in >she says yes >thecampaignissaved.gif >nerd chick gives me them googly eyes every game >shes horrible at roleplaying tho >the other dude starts complaining for some reason >the campaign is going to shit >ask veteran player to join in >he plays his old character, I agree to have his old friend come back as NPC >he starts flirting with the cute chick >i gotta get this dude out of here >make up story about the BBEG being his son >it catches him unawares and i kill him >feelsgoodman >the pilot dude comes back >turns out he's the nerd chick ex-bf wat do
>>44607237 bullshit, ren was trained in the force and she was not. Anakin was a much MUCH more powerfull force user than obi and he still got schooled by him both as anie and as vader (the only reason he did not wipe the floor with vader was because he though look shold do it). There is no reason for her to become so powerfull
>>44607385 It felt cheap to me. Leia and Han getting together? Sure. Them having a son and it just becoming known halfway through the film? Cheap, but I can deal with it - but then they immediately make it clear they know exactly who their son is. They knew. And that just bothers me.
Also, I legitimately thought his name was Ben. I thought they had named him after Kenobi.
>>44607527 His name is Ben, and they probably did name him after Kenobi; he changed it when he went evil. And there wasn't really a time to talk about Ren being their kid before both were on screen. It wasn't being kept from the audience, it was said at the first opportunity.
Also, not hard for them to know where their kid went; can't be that many people out there who slaughtered a temple's worth of students and ran away a few months(years?) before a force-sensitive guy showed up with the same lightsaber. Not to mention his obsession with Vader probably started early.
>>44607649 The thing that bothers me about them knowing about Ren is that they had years to do something about it. He seems to do a lot of near-solo missions for the Empire, and Han managed to get close enough to have a conversation with him.
I mean, he had an entire Star Destroyer in orbit all the time, he just went walking about on foot. Risky play to try and get to him while he's conducting a military operation, even if you can track where he is.
>>44605481 > new ms marvel > lives in new jersey > wants to be a blonde white woman > gets cucked by her beta boyfriend > everyone in her neighborhood blames her for why the nazis are gentrifing her hometown >somehow a mary sue
>>44605481 I tolerate people writing up crazy backstory and bios for their character. But if they ever try to force a mechanical benefit normally not available to their character through said mary sue shit then they get swiftly booted out of the table in the most embarrassing way possible.
I like to run my games in a lgs so the humiliation is very much public.
The criticism being made here is that NEITHER of those are amateur OCs, they're both current main-title characters (X-23 as the new Wolverine now that Wolverine is quite dead, Kamala Khan as Ms Marvel) and so your complaints are wildly ignorant, pointlessly cynical and illustrate a point about people who complain about Mary Sues: they usually don't know what they're talking about and are bitching about this nebulous 'problem' they've invented in their own heads to feel intellectually superior.
>Back in Highschool, playing in D&D club. >Start new characters in Thay, play a Lawful Evil Monk. >Clear out a dungeon for a slave master. >There's an unclaimed slave that I take as part of the payment. >DM is incredibly magical realm and makes clothes not matter how prude into slut clothes. >Makes her the indestructible DMPC with a one hit wonder attack. >It gets back to him that the rest of us hate the character. >So he kills her off in a duegar dungeon.
In addition, Wolverine has been wildly incompetent explicitly for decades and implicitly for most of his career. He's good at brawling and not a lot else, and he's not actually THAT great at brawling because he doesn't need to be, because nothing can fucking kill him and for several decades nothing could even really HURT him because of his skeleton. Wolverine mostly got by on being fucking invincible and it showed, they just started playing it up a lot more after the 90s.
I don't know if this counts, but we have a space marine in our Only Campaign... BUT NOT JUST ANY MARINE. He's a 13th company space wolf with specially designed and handmade helmet, lightning claws off the get and more in control of himself than any other wulfen! He also had his own personal drop pod send him in AND refuses to bow down or listen to anything us Captains have to say.
[Spoiler]Our GM, seeing how I'm playing a penal legion has personally asked me to kill the Furry Fucker. How many autocannon rounds does it take to bring down an RPG Space Marine? Gotta make sure I got enough.[\spoiler]
>running a small game to playtest a system I'm helping to make >the universe is an established and popular one and the game mostly follows the rules set by said universe >the plot follows a preestablished canon with some minor changes >most of the players make their characters and integrate them well >one even expys a character form another game and makes it work fine with the universe's rules >the last player makes their character and basically gives me nothing to work with but a stat spread, no real backstory or anything like that >character is a hothead who is constantly starting fights and taking them too far >the players and myself thus react to said character's behavior and actions in character as if the other character must be in idiot based on the nothing they know about her >player gets offended and starts ranting OOC about how his character has a degree in physics >such information isn't even remotely relevant to the campaign and setting >they just continue to play the character as a hotheaded idiot who starts fights they can't win >whenever they do win it's because they acted in-character as if they knew about the fate points system, which was expressly stated to be meta and not something characters are aware off >barely survives an attack with 2 HP left >acts like the fight has only just started now that they can proc the talent that gives them a stat boost when near defeat a character "near defeat" is acting like she's just warming up
>Setting set in modern/anime japan >One character come as a black canadian tall as fuck amazon >okay that's magical realm but eh >use power armor >okay that's coo- >sentient power armor >ok-- >like 6 sessions in and she start fucking the power armor >fuck
>Always act as if she can do no wrong >Player minmaxes as hard as he masturbate to his character >Looked down on nearly everyone but the fucking DMPC teenager with mental problems >even then she was the worst possible sister figure you could imagine >didn't really try to improve and the DMPC started looking up to her badly because it wasn't that bad first >the mary sue got the arm of the DMPC cut off >acted like one of the PC (a cyborg) was "of poor manufacture" because he failed two science tests (that were not limited in time in any way and really not easy to do) >a lot of poor decisions >unlikeable as shit >at the end of the campaign, she wished to become immortal with her power armor fuckbot
Never again. Oh yeah, and the player used two energy sources in the setting that were in DIRECT CONFLICT with each other with NO ill effect. Instead of only one.
>>44608861 RPG Space Marines generally have 8 or 10 toughness bonus as a result of Unnatural Toughness, though I think UT was nerfed after Dark Heresy 1.0. Aside from that, their armor usually provides somewhere between 8-12 AP. They also generally have in the range of 30 wounds if I'm not wrong. If I remember, autocannon is some shit like 3d10+8. So you're gonna need about 4-5 shots with the autocannon to put him down.
>>44609011 I thought that was the case. Still, you're dealing with a lot of toughness unless you've got the Felling trait on your weapons. An autocannon most certainly can tear a marine to shreds. In DH1 I made a psyker who could literally punch holes straight through Astartes Power Amor.
You just need the right tool for the job, and in this case the right tool is enough damage to destroy everything.
Don't forget that despite having lived as a borderline slave/scrapper orphan her entire life on a brutal planet... unshakable morals and ethics. Fuck, even Luke when living with his aunt and uncle was humoring the idea of joining the Empire because the life would be better.
I once was in a DBZ inspired RPG group on a message board and I had a Gary Stu unlike any other Gary Stu.
He declared that his character had discovered both the secrets of time travel AND immortality so his character had traveled back to the beginning of time and trained all the way up to present day multiple times so he said his characters was an Ultimate Grand Master in countless disciplines of countless fields.
I remember pointing out one day on the forums how my character was a demi-goddess who had magical invention skills that based on what she was competing with were better than Tony Stark, Victor Von Doom, Bruce Wayne and Reed Richards combined and she was still the weakest character in the group by a wide margin. The group fell apart shortly after that from the following discussion of power and balance.
>>44608878 Fuck I just remembered a choice moment.
>guy who expy'd his character asks if he can make rolls for the equivalent of notice or history checks using stats from the original game's sheet >nothing that really has a pronounced effect, but makes for a fitting in-joke >player with the Mary Sue asks if he can make the same check >"No, you literally don't have those stats." >"But Character X doesn't either! That's not fair!" >"Character X is literally a cross-universe character making out of universe rolls as a joke. Now sit down and stop getting mad at games."
The idea of a Mary Sue stems from fan fic, but it isn't limited to fan fic. Basically, it comes in two broad categories:
Character Mary Sues are characters who are Very important to everyone else in the work. So characters only interact with her, or if they interact with anyone else, it's only to illuminate those characters' relationships with the mary sue. A good example: Bella from Twilight. Sooki Stackhouse in true blood, at least at first.
Power Mary Sues are characters whose abilities, AS REALIZED IN THE STORY, are overwhelmingly above those of everyone else. Dr. Manhattan isn't a mary sue despite having overwhelming power, because his power is mostly unused in the story or counteracted. It's there, but it doesn't take over.
Both are just variants of the same general problem: characters who take over a story to the point that the whole thing revolves around exploring how great they are, to the detriment of the story. The story becomes an ode to the wonderfulness of this one character. Doctor Who falls into both traps at its worst, and at its best avoids both despite the Doctor being, on paper, a natural candidate for mary sueishness.
Rey's a Power Mary Sue. Her character and story are bland but fine. But she's a mechanic, ace pilot, combat monster, AND has jedi powers. Her only flaw is that she can't reach the shield controls on the Falcon, so she needs a copilot. She out-duelled a trained Jedi. A shitty wounded one, but a Jedi nonetheless. When she's on screen, the world revolves around her, to the detriment of the others.
Luke was a naive, annoying amateur. Han was unprincipled and spiritually unilluminated. Leia was handy with a blaster and a good leader, but that's it. Obi Wan in the OT was a Jedi, but that's it.
Rey is R2D2, Luke, and Han all in one character. She's a Power Mary Sue.
This. Kylo is a fantastic character because he's so limited and flawed. He wants to be Darth Vader, and in a way he succeeds, by being the whiny brat that Anakin Skywalker was.
But what he doesn't understand is that Anakin was trapped by his love into falling to the Dark Side and destroying everything that he'd fallen to save.
Kylo Ren, on the other hand, is willingly sacrificing all that just for power. He just wants power and to live up to his ideal of himself. He can't hate himself the way Anakin did because he never cared enough about anyone or anything else.
Finn is a great character because he is flawed and limited, too. He's haunted by the First Order and his own past with it. He's trying to decide if he ran out of moral indignation or simple cowardice.
>on Kylo Ren losing to Rey and barely winning against Finn Didn't he get like a superblaster shot to the chest? The kind of shot that doesn't just drop a nigga, but throws a nigga away and overpenetrates to hit the three niggas behind the first nigga?
A Bowcaster, but yes. Winning against Finn was a logical outcome of fighting a man who couldn't fight off a stormtrooper with a lightsaber. It's not just that Rey won, it's that she can do seemingly anything; defeat Sith, use the force without training, pilot the Falcon, repair the falcon, and is loved by everyone immediately despite no real reason for them to do so.
He spoke Basic and understood Wookie. Rey speaks Basic, at least one alien language, and understands droid and Wookie despite the odds being high she's never seen a Wookie in her backwater trade outpost on her backwater planet.
Also, none of them were crack shots; Han was probably the best, but still not great (until the new movie when he did that dumb behind-the-back shot) but I don't know if Luke ever managed to actually hit anyone when he wasn't 3 feet away.
>>44609891 >>44609923 The lightsaber fight wasn't even the first part of it. Kylo tried Force-interrogating Rey and she fought him off (with effort, but still), when Kylo was perfectly fine and all Rey knew about the Force was that it existed.
>>44609891 I actually liked the scene when she started trying to Mind Trick the Stormtrooper. The way she kept trying to say it differently before it worked made it seem like she had heard it was a thing people could do but wasn't sure exactly how to do it. Besides its not like Luke spent a lot of time training, he was only with Yoda for what, a few weeks? And he's Force Pulling before that. Honestly Rei being naturally in tune with the Force doesn't seem that far outside the film canon...
>>44609954 Yeah. Some of them phrase it as 'neckbeards upset about new movie in Star Wars no matter what', but there's always an undercurrent of 'if you don't like you're sexist and racist,' that sometimes is explicitly stated.
Finn was OK, though they kinda shit the bed by making him not like combat but also massacring a few dozen troopers over the movie, and by making him play funny black guy when he had the possibility to be a great straight man for Poe- a guy raised his whole life in strictly regimented barracks would be a great foil
>>44610010 To be fair, it's pretty heavily implied that Kylo isn't actually that strong of a force user, and that part of the reason he turned to the Dark Side was because he believed it could make him more powerful.
In that case, Rey's raw connection to the force could be enough to overcome his trained, but weaker, force powers.
The rest of it is kind of bullshit though - a scavenger wouldn't know how to fly or repair a spaceship, just which parts were the most valuable to sell. She still wouldn't be trained enough to use the Jedi mind trick, and she had no way to know about it. And somehow she's better with a lightsaber than Finn, who at least apparently has training in the use of melee weapons?
>>44610010 Agreed, the interrogation scene was fucking stupid.
>>44610037 And so was the mind trick in my opinion. I liked how James Bond told her to fuck off, it was a nice subversion. But then nope, she immediately succeeds. It would have worked better if she'd managed a force distraction or some shit, or shown the trooper actively fighting the trick.
>>44610037 People forget the gap in the movies. Luke had YEARS between New Hope and Empire to learn some stuff, and even then he's barely capable of shifting a couple pounds of metal. He then trained with Yoda prior to getting his ass beat in Empire, then spent months more with Yoda before coming back as a real Jedi Knight in Returns. He saw Obi-Wan do the mind trick right in front of him, and he still didn't do it right, let alone go from 'terrified on a torture rack' to 'tricking a stormtrooper' in 15 seconds flat.
I think that it was inevitable, as each movie has raised the bar when it comes to Force use; it was in check in the OT, but in the prequels it's everywhere, and so now people expect force pulling, lightsaber duels and mind tricks all day long, sense be damned
>>44610066 >Finn, who at least apparently has training in the use of melee weapons? Prequel novel shows that Finn is actually highly skilled with both ranged and melee weapons and a master tactician. He was squad leader of his fireteam. Only reason he didn't climb the ladder higher is that he cared about his dudes too much, putting them above the mission.
A theory says TR-8R (aka Sick Spins Stormtrooper) is one of his former squadmates.
>>44610117 I thought he was just pretty gud with a lightsaber and swinging it, but I had completely forgot about how he stopped a laser blast.
It would've gone well with his imitation of Darth Vader, because that fucker was so metal he couldn't use force lightning and didn't do much extreme with the force. He would've seen DV as what he could be with the right training despite his limitations - but of course, again, the blaster thing.
>>44610066 >In that case, Rey's raw connection to the force could be enough to overcome his trained, but weaker, force powers.
I can see her maybe being capable of keeping her out of his head at cost, but she went above and beyond.
>>44610167 Vader deflected a shot with his hand and that was amazing at the time, not to mention pulling down catwalks with a gesture while fighting Luke. It wasn't extreme because we didn't have the image of Sheev tearing apart a room to compare it to.
>>44610159 >book says he's a highly skilled fire team leader >movie shows him like a kid at his first battle, weeping over dead comrades and obviously not in any position of authority, while he calls himself a janitor
>>44610066 I could get behind some degree of repair skill, I mean knowing fine from fucked is pretty key to scavenging and knowing how to turn something a bit fucked into something mostly fine is going to net you a decent number of extra credits.
>>44610149 They could have HAD lightsaber duels and all those fancy tricks to entertain the plebs without going full retard with how mary sue rey is.
Instead of having Shitkiller Base, everything related to that garbage and the awful last 20 minutes. Just make it so that Finn and Rey put up an okay fight together against an injured Kylo, but he eventually has them on the ropes and is about to finish them off with Luke's saber and then in gonna head of to go kill him too. Anyway, Luke is the one that pulls the saber instead of fucking rey and Luke whups his fucking ass without even igniting the saber.
Reconciling things that call themselves gods and/or have supernatural powers with religions is Comic Book 101, and Ms. Marvel actually does a good job of talking about it. I recommend you actually read them.
>>44610284 Honestly, I can handle her being able to hold her own with her stick but literally everything she can do is just stupid. What 19 year old is good at EVERYTHING you toss at them?
What is Luke even gonna teach her? Today's lesson is force persuasion >oh I already know how to do that O..oh alright, how about telekinesis? >I know that too Do you know all the mental whoha and meditation shit you have to do to control the force? >OH COURSE I DO! GOSH, STOP MANSPLAINING THE FORCE TO ME, MISOGYNIST
And then she teaches luke how to use the force better
>First Order Stormtrooper >They're established to be trained early on in life through brutal methods up to and including brainwashing to be selfless killing machines in unfailing service to the order >Not even given a name >It's established he's had no prior issues >Sees death once >"I GUESS I'M DOOFY COMIC RELIEF AND FALL GUY NOW!"
Yeah, the biggest thing is that she's awesome at everything IMMEDIATELY.
Luke brought up how he used to use rats for target practice. Rey never touched a blaster before in her life and soon was popping Stormtroopers with ease.
Han's entire job and life revolved around flying the Falcon. Anakin gained a lot of his skill from podracing which he lost at constantly to the point he often crashed his pod. She immediately was good enough to fly the Falcon so well she was able to line up a shot for a jammed cannon that she couldn't even see where it was aiming.
Luke and Anakin both lost limbs in their first major battles against the Sith.
Anakin could barely contain his emotions at any stage of his life and that was the reason he fell to the Dark Side. Rey resists a payment roughly sixty times what she is used to for a droid she just met when her entire life prior to this was nothing but getting fucked over.
Also with Luke, you have to remember that Episode IV was originally going to be a standalone movie. They KNOW Episodes VIII and IX are on the way and she still showed off more awesome feats than Luke did in all of Episode IV.
>>44609841 It was DBZ. The game was being made with the intention of being an accurate representation of the show and all of its tropes. Said player basically walked into the game expecting to be One Punch Man.
>>44610398 Seriously, think about how much fucking better it would have been to have Luke there.
It would show how much he's advanced as a Jedi. It would serve to show Kylo the power of the light and what he has to strive to beat. It would show Rey what she could become.
And we could avoid this starkiller nonsense that was honestly the worst 30 minutes I've seen of any movie in the last 2 years. So fucking disappointing after the first 30 minutes of the movie were actually good.
>>44610259 It's not hard. Hammerhand with 4 strength, despite being primitive, is still enough to blow a hole through their armor. And that's before the d10. Of course then you have toughness to deal with. Then you get into Ascension and Malleus Hammerhand and everything else is weak shit by comparison.
>>44610473 >And we could avoid this starkiller nonsense that was honestly the worst 30 minutes I've seen of any movie in the last 2 years. So fucking disappointing after the first 30 minutes of the movie were actually good.
This. I went in tired after the hype, but the setup was fantastic. Even Rey was fine; scavenger, acrobat, big stick, likes droids, lonely. Perfectly conveyed.
Then it came apart during the second act, and by the time they started rehashing New Hope I was done.
>>44610481 >janitor in a setting where all those menial tasks are performed by droids or robots >janitor going to an active firefight He lied. If he said he was a sergeant, Solo would've trusted him even less.
>>44610497 >>44610312 >>44610473 The problem with having badass Luke there is that there's no way he leaves Ren to die. He rescues him, and then we have to start the next movie with an escape scene or something so Ren can go and get more badass for the next big fight.
>>44610531 I feel the movie really suffered because it was trying to be too much of a loveletter to the old movies and bring stuff from them in. And then whoever was in charge of the story didn't do much work in bringing details together, because he felt you were supposed to notice the parallels to the old movies and realize 'oh it's like back during this scene.'
>>44610435 >>44610334 Basically she doesn't interact with the Greek gods that Mr or old Ms. Marvel did, it's a force that takes the form of the Avengers (her Earthly idols, a fascination for which she's criticized by her parents). She, as a kid, can justify it by being the essence of Superhero picking her.
No. He can be rendered brain dead, deprived of enough important organs to be killed, or outright annihilated. The adamantium skeleton makes it even harder, but he's denied that at points in the continuity. All in all, it's challenging, not impossible. He's Warboss-tier ded 'ard.
>>44610587 It's like someone made a Mad Libs of a movie plot, and every blank was 'something that happened in Star Wars.'
They were terrified of original thought, which is not a flaw I'd ever thought I'd throw at JJ Abrams. He writes pure crap sometimes, but it's original crap. But this was just things people remembered from Star Wars.
What should fly around? X-Wings, TIEs, and the Falcon. Forget that even the original movie had a bunch of different Rebel fighters and TIE designs, everything is boiled down to those three because it takes no effort to remember them.
What are the bad guys? The Empire. Literally the Empire, same armour, same weapons, same ships, same doomsday weapon, same overbearing presence across the galaxy, same Space Nazi ideology, slightly updated but without any originality.
Who are the heroes? The Rebellion. Forget that the last trilogy ended with the Rebellion winning and going on the establish the New Republic, the story of New Hope doesn't work if you have them as an actual government and TFA is nothing if not a New Hope clone, so it's the same hodgepodge plucky upstarts.
TFA is not a bad film because of Mary Sue or SJW or any of that. It's bad because it's recycled scenes from previous Star Wars movies taped together into a crude plot with so many edges you'll bang your shins going anywhere. They wanted to appeal to 'old fans' and ended up just giving them the same thing they liked before in HD.
>>44610481 He said he was posted on sanitation duty on Starkiller Base, which you can either read as just what he did when he was there for some reason (the janitor explanation), or it could be for some past infraction that he was posted on Starkiller Base as a punishment, which could be interesting if clarified in future
Femthor didn't bother me on the core concept. It was the Ninja Theory quality level of PR that made the whole thing suck.
>Marvel: "We're going to have a Female Thor!" >Fanbase: "Uh... okay. As long as she's written well and doesn't screw with things already established we can deal." >Issue 1: "ARE YOU MAD YET NECKBEARDS?! YOU'RE SO MAD! YOU'RE SO MAD! HERE HAVE A STRAWMAN! AND ANOTHER STRAWMAN!"
> They were terrified of original thought, which is not a flaw I'd ever thought I'd throw at JJ Abrams. He writes pure crap sometimes, but it's original crap. But this was just things people remembered from Star Wars.
Did you not see Star Trek Into Darkness? That movie was nothing but condensed and concentrated Star Trek tropes.
>>44610808 What would 'sanitation duty' be beyond janitor duty? Shooting trash compactor monsters? They turned the whole planet into a weapon while hiding that fact from the galaxy, it's not like there's a need for a ton of security.
>>44610821 I'd have been happy if it'd just been a genderflipped Thor, because of some bullshit Loki pulled (for god's sake, I'm entertained by Nora in RWBY), or something, anything, as long as there was an actual explanation up front. None of this 'well, we decided we wanted a female Thor, writer, now make it happen'.
>>44610459 A mary sue is a character created as a self-insert for the author, typically these characters are also the best at everything because it lets them hog as much spotlight as possible. That's it.
It's not difficult at all to explain or understand, people just needlessly complicate it by applying it to everything they don't like. So now its basically impossible to even use it correctly because everyone assumes its being used wrong the second its uttered like this goober >>44605493.
>>44610618 >(her Earthly idols, a fascination for which she's criticized by her parents) Well no shit, if she's a Muslim she's not supposed to be idolizing anybody. That's kind of the whole point of the religion.
Not that a lot of Muslims don't clearly forget that when it comes to Mohammed.
>>44610881 I mean, there's a difference between the implication of 'janitor' (implying that was the entirity of his job as a stormtrooper), and the idea that he worked sanitation as a punishment for whatever reason, which doesn't preclude him being good at fighting.
>>44610888 >very conveniently forgets to add that a defining trait of Mary Sues is being annoying. It paramount that Mary sues are annoying, otherwise they're only self-inserts which, in itself, is not inherently wrong.
>>44610953 That wouldn't be before he was a stormtrooper though, considering he stated sanitation was his duty while stationed on Starkiller Base. At least I assume no non-First Order members were allowed on it, given it was probably meant to be secret until fired
>>44610898 >NOBODY wants the Vong to come back, meaning its between the Imperial Remnant and Republic.
But TFA wasn't Remnant and Republic. The First Order had all the same reach and power as the Empire, and the Republic only showed up when it was being obliterated. It wasn't a civil war over the fate of the galaxy after the fall of Rome, it was back to Rebels vs. Empire with a name change. And fuck you for reminding me Thrawn wasn't the villain of TFA
>>44610898 >E-Wings and K-Wings are shit and the Empire kept using TIE (with more Interceptors) in old continuity too.
What about the A-Wings? Y-Wings? B-Wings? All of them are unique and interesting designs, but this movie was just all X all the time.
They don't have to get rid of old stuff, but they got myopic and threw out 75% of the variety from the old movies.
The outline of Star Wars: TFA is essentially the outline of A New Hope with all the nouns changed.
Last I heard, Wolverine is dead. The last storyline he appeared in was called "The Death of Wolverine." Don't know if he's coming back from this one.
My personal theory as to why he always gets BTFO is that he knows his powers well enough that he can survive whatever punks him, allowing the rest of the team to observe their opponent's abilities and formulate an effective plan.
Identical outcome, but very different states. Let's just say he's not an immortal by in-universe standards, but he's a title character unlikely to finally and conclusively die within the next, say, decade or two.
>>44609656 Except that despite being traumatised by his buddy dying in front of him, Finn has no issue with blasting an entire hangar of the only people he's ever known. They threw away all his potential development after the first ten minutes and turned him into comedic relief.
When you make a stormtrooper- which is literally designed to be a faceless mook- a main character, you're exploring interesting ground by saying mooks aren't just mooks, they have their own stories. But when Finn goes willy-willy murdery on them, you're just falling back into faceless mook territory. There could have been so much more. Finn could have been a good character. Rey was doomed from the start.
>>44610989 Finn's own book tie-in had him in training and basically ends before the start of the movie. The guy who left the bloody handprint on his helmet was a guy he was friends with, the riot trooper who fought him after yelling traitor was in it too.
>>44610941 Who's corpses? Who would they fight on their secret base planet?
>>44610953 He was raised from birth as a trooper, though; I can see Vader Youth, but he's way too old to still be doing that, especially if he's now got a job as a literal first-boots-on-the-ground stormtrooper on Kylo Ren's Star Destroyer.
>>44611076 Bullshit. They brought back fucking feathered 80's hair for the movie, they can bring back the old ships. The whole point of the movie was to be a love letter, but they don't even remember what comes after 'Roses are red.'
>>44611071 >Who would they fight on their secret base planet? Exactly. It's thanks to the Sanitation Corps that you don't know whose corpses they dispose of regularly. It means they're doing a good job.
>>44611101 Nah, there were differences, the problem with Jane!Thor was that she is literally a beg for SJW-sheckles, and I wouldn't say that if it hadn't been for all the stupid fucking horse shit that happened, including Titania knocking out her husband "because you're a female hero", nevermind the fact that Titania's primary enemy is She-Hulk.
The problem with Rey is that the entire plot arc of Force Awakens is rushed. For whatever reason, they bulled through plot arcs that were spread out over the course of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and all of the characters suffered for it. Their big villain reveal happens almost immediately (and has little to no impact), their protagonist's growth is accelerated to absurd levels (she does the force grab and force persuasion right off the bat, as opposed to at the beginning of Empire and Return), the entire entity of the Republic remains completely nebulous and, apparently, irrelevant (also they didn't blow up Coruscant, explicitly; they named some other system. Where was the Republic based? What WAS the Republic? Why should I care about any of this, and thus care about the First Order? Why is it called 'the Resistance' when the First Order is clearly not supposed to be the power in the galaxy? Are they supposed to be the power in the galaxy?).
All of the fine details are perfectly alright. Finn and Poe are wonderful, Ford and Fisher fucking NAILED their performances, Ford especially, I liked Rey but agree that they pushed her growth way too fast (the tech stuff actually makes sense, but speaking 'droid' did not; that was my only actual problem with her), Kylo Ren was an absolute mess and has good potential for character growth, General Hux was great... but the film completely lacked any world building. We are left knowing NOTHING about the galaxy at large that we didn't know from the opening scroll (the First Order is evil, the Resistance is good, Luke never founded a Jedi order) and even those details pose more questions than they answer.
>>44611181 Almost every regenerating hero on Marvel universe has technical immortality and by that extension the only true ways to kill would be 1. Take away their regeneration ability. 2. Annihilate them from existence (remove any all traces of that they ever existed). 3. Plot-Armor piercing bullets.
>>44611276 Because writers allowed it, removing his plot armor.
In his ongoing, T-Bone actually killed him and Death told him the powers that be won't let him die yet so he didn't.
No other explanation as to hiw he survived other than Death saying he won't. You cannot get a more literal form of plot armor than that. You know, unless she physically handed him armor given specifically by the writer I guess.
Boo. He was a piss-poor Tarkin knockoff, and frankly him surviving was the cherry on the shit pie that was the third act. They killed literally nobody of consequence, except Han, who had the writing on the wall for the entire film.
>>44610999 Can't wolverine speak like 16 languages and know basically every martial art ever and fly planes and all kinds of other things? I mean he's not a rocket scientist sure, but I wouldn't say his only skill is brawling poorly. He can beat iron fist and captain America in a straight fight on a good day.
>>44611291 >combat experience I think this was something Finn didn't actually have. He was skilled at weapons, both ranged and melee, and at tactics but only in training exercises or simulations. Then he got into an actual firefight and realized people die when killed, that this isn't like in his vidyagaems and that the First Order might not be the good guys..
>>44611371 In addition to >>44611421, no he can't. He's a better-than average fighter but his trick is just letting people hit him until they get tired. CA or Iron Fist would and have wrecked his shit. Also, he gets abilities as the plot demands, but repeated brain trauma makes him forget it. Wolverine's history is basically, "spend a few immortal years learning something, have your brain leak out your ears, heal, forget."
>>44611500 If you cut from her saying she won't fight femThor to getting a Mjolnir to the face, its a pretty good moment. I chock it up as "don't explain the joke" rather than an irredeemably bad scene.
Finn had a problem when he had the blinders bitchslapped off his face that yes, he was working for the Space Nazis, and turns out, no, he doesn't have the stomach for killing unarmed people on their knees.
>>44609317 >Luke His piloting skills were there, he only became a powerful Jedi after additional training after he got his ass wooped by Vader at Cloud City. Besides, the Force works the way it does & that's why Luke destroyed the Death Star. >Han "What a piece of junk!" was both Luke & Leia's first reaction to the Millennium Falcon & Han earned Leia's vagina through saving her on the Death Star, on Hoth, etc. >Anakin Anakin's entire story is how his flaws corrupted him & how he only managed to redeem himself through sacrificing his life for his son.
>>44605481 I hate you stupid pretentious fucks who don't know your own asshole from a hole in the ground and yet want to use the term Mary Sue just to put a label on shit you don't like instead of actually explaining why you don't like it. And you'll shit in anyone's mouth who points out the problems with using it the way you are.
Cowards who take refuge in labels because your opinions are flimsier than your understanding of the media you profess to love. Idiots who think demeaning others is the same thing as elevating yourself.
>>44616720 So let me get this straight, you're being indignant over a character that people in this thread have explained why they don't like said character, and why Mary Sue is an apt description based on the description used in this thread.
Furthermore, your very post is the poster child for demeaning others while thinking that you are elevating yourself to the high ground. Do you not see how retardedly hypocritical you're being right now? Jedi you are not, so high ground wars you cannot play.
>>44617635 Yes, but it's justified since Han is an experienced galactic smuggler, while Rey has probably never seen a droid that hasn't been taken apart for scrap or sold, let alone a fucking wookie, yet can understand wookie and droid. All I really want is justification for why Rey is so hypercompetent while everyone loves her without without using Mary Sue because I can't.
>>44617562 Not him, but I feel the same way sometimes. I hate how sites like TVTropes try to put everything in some neatly labeled box, or how people are so desperate to belong to a group they'll cling to a label for themselves.
That said, otherwise I disagree with his main point. Terms do have their uses, and the term mary sue is a useful term for describing a certain kind of character - specifically, the kind that OP seems most curious about. And so many people have gone in such depth with their views of mary sues in movies and in their games, bringing up plenty of points to support their evidence of a character being a mary sue, they aren't just hiding behind the label - it's just the thesis of their argument.
>>44607210 I honestly know there's a lot of problems with the prequel series. Like an unbelievable amount, but my overwhelming thought when I was watching the newest film was "this feels so different and not necessarily in good ways".
Prequels had a lot going on in every shot and genuinely felt entertaining to watch. So much was over the top and campy.
The filming of the new series feels I dunno, way more closed in and almost claustrophobic, like there's less going on and everything needs to be filmed closer to the characters to hide that.
>>44618198 I actually agree with you. At least the prequel were trying to do their own thing, within the future boundaries the original trilogy set up. We got an entertaining, galatic scale war between clone troopers and droids. We got a huge jedi order with thousands of alien members. We had a good bit of political intruge, and we had the clash of Obiwan and Anakin, who both cared deeply for each other and ended up as enemies of each other with shattered hopes for the future. It wasn't perfect at all, but damn if it wasn't grand.
The new movie doesn't give me much hope for anything that strike me like the original trilogy did. It's intentionally crippled itself.
>>44610284 There's a slight difference between knowing how to swing a heavy blunt object and knowing how to swing a lightsaber. For one, lightsabers are literally weightless, and if you end up accidentally overcompensating while swinging you're almost certainly going to end up with the blade hitting you.
>>44617562 I'm not anti-label at all. The things that make us cringe about our middle-school selves aren't the concepts we adhered to, but the lack of depth in them.
Name any belief you hold now, that you cherish and respect yourself for. A middle schooler is capable of holding some version of that belief, and many probably do.
What's lacking is the depth given to it by the benefit of your experience. The perspective that that allows you to sense and evaluate entire worlds of meaning where before you only saw flat objects.
Again, I'm not against labels. Labels are useful, necessary, and a natural expression of part of what makes us civilized. Taking refuge in labels to cover for your own cowardice and bad taste? That's worth hating.
Too bad you just read my first post and saw "anti-label". Seems like a poorly-thought out middle-school reaction if you ask me.
>>44619994 >Taking refuge in labels to cover for your own cowardice Man, it's fucking impossible to take you seriously, you jackass. Seriously. Having an opinion is now 'cowardice'. What a fucking loon.
>>44620676 That's because it's an excellent film and spiritual successor. The only people who don't see it are the ones who are out of touch with why the films were so great in the first place, or never were.
>>44620704 You do know that people can use the generic "you" without actually referring to you as an individual, right? You're taking things personally and overreacting. That makes other people the crazy ones?
But sure, let's indulge you. Tell me how an opinion is just an opinion, and can't be right or wrong. We'll all sit here and read it even.
so right now we have a campagin that's pretty railroaded about being sky pirates or whatever.
It's 5e and we have this sorceress that is buddying up to the dm and making basically everything revolve around her cause she made herself a "noblewoman".
When asked by DM who wanted to be captain, I took it cause no one else wanted to. Proceed to not really do anything with it because again, it's railroaded into "there's a race and each airship has to find artifact and bring it back to town first to win". Surprise surprise, there's a floating castle that comes down and a vampire's controlling it. He says he's in the race now for whatever reason, despite the whole thing not having any real purpose.
Things are going fine, we're all taking turns going in different directions on a grid map, and we find it in like four drives. The DM did not plan for us to find it that quickly, so when we go back to the portal or whatever that we started from, fucking every airship already found their artifact. Oh and ours gave our ship nitros or something
All the airship captains want to team together to do a full frontal assault on the castle or whatever. It's supposed to be set up as some epic attack on some big bad, but it was shoehorned in so badly that I kinda got disgusted.
I realize at this point that jack shit that we do matters and say we should leave the ships and fuck off back yhrough the portal when they attack. I'm playing neutral evil as I figure I'm a dude that wants to take care of his team but doesn't mind getting my hands dirty. Girls boyfriend agrees with me, says fuck dealing with that. Girl and her friend say no, and the girl proceeds to threaten me. She was a sorceress that had the metamagic chromatic orb and says she'll oneshot me if we don't agree with her. Her friend decided to banish me, a cleric, and the dm says the crew agreed with her.
>>44621440 I did instigate her by saying "i am the captain" and repeating it to piss her off.
I come back annoyed, shoot her for around 20 and prepare to die. The ship nitros into the castle after the other captains blow that shit up and they get caught on the mast after failing skill checks. Her wild magic activates and she gets weakness to piercing. I think long and hard about picking her off, but decide against it and we do the generic fight against the vampire. It goes as expected.
I skip the next session cause I was sick, but they were apparantly planning a heist and really needed my character there, which did make me feel bad.
Session after is when The girl gets really annoying: they made my character go out in the wilderness and get high so now im chromatic and apparantly buff looking, which I thought was funny but afterwards seemed spiteful. i'm constantly told im useless or not needed, that the new player is now captain, and im basically fucked out of luck if I need help from any of my teammates. The heist is in a big airship, and every character except the girls boyfriend is centered around being a part of her entourage. We then sit on our asses while waiting for her boyfriend to activate his distraction and see her dancing with the baron for whatever reason (the girl is a dancer in real life). The boyfriend has to sit out in another room while the dm and girl awkwardly flirt with each other. Literally nothing happens besides that.
The distraction goes awry, people get fucked up, and we sort of bolt into the place where we need to steal shit. Stuff goes fine besides that. They all cast fly and take potions and we make it back as the ship explodes. i guess it's not as blatant mary sueing, but it's very much a dm has a favorite and everyone will get fucked if they oppose it.
>>44615989 I'm going to make this quick so I don't have to stay in your stupidity too long.
It's not very difficult to see why a Mary sue is annoying. Here is the definition. *ahem* See Mary-Sue: A female fanfiction character who is so perfect as to be annoying.
Basically an attention whore who in a game of pretend makes her character without any flaws -or some of very little consequence-, who always wants to be at the center of everyone's attention, so much so that she is incredibly annoying to deal with.
Example: The character in the HP fanfic was a complete and utter Sue. She moved across the street from Harry. She was beautiful, smart and pretty. They fell in wuv almost immediately. She threw all of the characters out of character and generally upstaged everyone. It was quite obnoxious.
Now, for the good of humanity, please turn your brain on before you post.
>>44622008 See the difference is, I actually know what a Mary Sue is. Annoyance is an individual reaction that people have to things, some will be annoyed by a given element and some will not. Likewise, judgments like "attention whore", "flaws of any consequence", blah blah blah.
Like, I'm sorry you have your panties in a bunch and this is some kind of hill to die on for you.
Like, read what you wrote, bitch. Do you not see how much of an idiot you sound like right now? idgaf what you or others think of me atm but your ignorance is like a shining beacon.
Enjoy your imagined subculture relevance, the rest of the world will enjoy an excellent rendition of an engaging character.
>>44611421 >That's just the product of hundreds of different writers over the course of several decades. That's my main gripe with all of Marvel and DC, really, with my big example being Peter Parker going from nerd trying to do the right thing to a wannabe Tony Stark.
Unfortunately, it's enough of an annoyance that now I don't really bother with either company and just read isolated stories like Chew and Saga. No multiverses or power creep there.
>>44623583 Then you run into the question of how you know it's a self-insert. Generally, I find that when people try to play themselves it comes off terribly, because people don't know as much about themselves as they think they do (every person I've played with has given themselves a 1 15+ INT).
>>44623626 Wew, I'd probably give myself stats based on the corresponding tables and possibly a few flaws based on defects (be them personality or physical). Then again I am physically active and attend to a really good university (for freeee) so I am about average physically and slightly above in int. Probably average wisdom, below average cha for decent appearance but being a sperg. Dex would average out because I have pretty good natural flexibility and practiced but I lack in coordination for a lot of tasks.
>>44618762 >We got an entertaining, galatic scale war between clone troopers and droids.
There was nothing entertaining about it, it's literally just two hordes of mass produced cannon fodder killing each other while mostly out of focus, other than the occasional, pointless spectacle.
>We had a good bit of political intruge, and we had the clash of Obiwan and Anakin, who both cared deeply for each other and ended up as enemies of each other with shattered hopes for the future.
Obi-Wan and Anakin hated each other in the movies. They were constantly bickering and shit talking each other behind the others back. There was no tragedy to Anakin's fall, it's the same problem the Horus Heresy had in that there were these supposed heroes falling from grace that was supposed to be this heart breaking event but when you get to know them you find out half the traitor primarchs were always douche-bags and had clearly lost their fucking minds long before they officially betrayed the good guys and it's only because all their close friends were too stupid or indifferent to do anything that their betrayal surprised anyone.
I think Finn is fine as a character. In the original star wars, all the characters were a little silly at times. Even Leia.
I do have a problem with him casually killing dozens of his friends escaping with Po, but that's really my only gripe. All his other actions, decisions, and abilities fit with his character concept. He's strong enough to stand on his own as a character, haunted without letting his backstory take him over, and also flawed enough that when he's in danger you really feel like he's at risk. He contributes to the plot without becoming the plot.
Even the janitor thing. Anybody who's been in the military knows that ordinary grunts are constantly being handed scut work. Especially on a top secret base world where you don't want lots of civilian contractors poking their noses around.
Very good work, all of it.
I agree that he'd have been a good straight man for Po, if they'd gone in that direction. The happy, wild ace pilot paired with the haunted, disciplined stormtrooper defector. I suppose if they'd done it they were worried that people would think it's another Kirk/Spock.
With Rey, you get zero sense that she's ever in real danger. When she's in a scene there's zero room for anyone else to shine. In a way, I think sexism does play a role here. It used to be that women were just love interests and/or damsels in distress. With modern feminism, writers are afraid to give women any flaws at all, lest they be accused of being sexist.
>>44624852 >In a way, I think sexism does play a role here. It used to be that women were just love interests and/or damsels in distress. With modern feminism, writers are afraid to give women any flaws at all, lest they be accused of being sexist.
Flaws are important. Consider Atia of the Julii in the HBO series Rome. Now contrast her with Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones. Atia, and the book version of Cersei, is a straight-up villain. But a complicated one. She has strengths and weaknesses. She's a fascinating character, far moreso than any of the alleged main characters.
Now look at Cersei in the TV adaptation. She COULD have matched her character in the books. HBO has aired characters like that before (Atia).
But instead Lena Hedley and the writers wanted to make her less of a villain, and more of a caring mother who's ruthless and goes too far. In the hopes of making her more "three dimensional" they've instead removed all punch from her, that delicious villainy that can make an actor's career and make a character legendary.
What they've done is punted. Taken a low-risk option that minimizes the chance that some activist group somewhere will unleash some hashtags and demand a boycott. But in doing so, they've watered down a strong female character and replaced her with an inoffensive female character.
Flaws make a character more relatable. They raise the dramatic stakes by making it conceivable that the character might fail a challenge. My making a character unable to do everything himself, they create the motivation for characters working together-- even when there's friction between them.
Mary Sues don't just take over the story, they're boring. But since movies and TV are commercial ventures, so better to produce something boring and derivative than attract the ire of activists who might go after your business.
>>44624852 Well, I thought it was more desperation than him actually being casual about murdering his former comrades. And he probably believed on some level that they deserved it, because they were heartless killers and such.
I think even a moment of moral conflict would have been appropriate. Especially if he was forced to go ahead and kill them anyway.
Having Finn be a stormtrooper is a missed opportunity if you skip giving viewers through him the realization that all those faceless mooks are real human beings and even if you have to kill them due to the necessities of war it's still a horrifying and morally questionable act.
That's my main gripe with TFA. It's a perfectly workmanlike Star Wars episode, but like the prequels it seemed rushed and missed obvious opportunities to be refined and improved. Most movies these days seem to be storyboarded rather than written-- and it's like once they have The Plan written they can't deviate from it in the name of telling a better story.
>>44611428 I remember a scene in Alex Rider where he has to shoot at bullseye targets- he hits dead on nine times out of ten, but when he has to shoot targets in the shape of people, his hit rate dropped to less than three times out of ten.
>>44610440 >Yeah, the biggest thing is that she's awesome at everything IMMEDIATELY. >Luke brought up how he used to use rats for target practice. Rey never touched a blaster before in her life and soon was popping Stormtroopers with ease. The first shot she missed, after fucking up the safety. The second shot she hit. After she had the dream thing she started using the force for a lot of things. >Han's entire job and life revolved around flying the Falcon. Anakin gained a lot of his skill from podracing which he lost at constantly to the point he often crashed his pod. She immediately was good enough to fly the Falcon so well she was able to line up a shot for a jammed cannon that she couldn't even see where it was aiming. This part I agree on. Didn't make much sense. It wasn't fully jammed. Bottom cannon was fucked and top cannon could only aim forward. Finn still had to aim it. >Luke and Anakin both lost limbs in their first major battles against the Sith. She fought a guy who had a arm wound, had been shot in the side by the "sends storm troopers flying" gun, and was an emotional wreck from just killing his father. She also was losing the whole time until she used the force (which she is bullshit strong in) >Anakin could barely contain his emotions at any stage of his life and that was the reason he fell to the Dark Side. Rey resists a payment roughly sixty times what she is used to for a droid she just met when her entire life prior to this was nothing but getting fucked over. she didn't sell her only friend? such restraint. >Also with Luke, you have to remember that Episode IV was originally going to be a standalone movie. They KNOW Episodes VIII and IX are on the way and she still showed off more awesome feats than Luke did in all of Episode IV. It's almost as if the force is growing stronger....as it if is awakening? (we have special effects now that aren't shit. They could have never done that "stop a blaster bolt" thing in the originals and made it good.)
It's not just a question of strength. Luke and Anakin had enormous potential as well, but they didn't manifest specific powers without considerable training.
Here's an alternative that would have been better.
"Garbage it is." Rey and Finn rush aboard the Millennium Falcon. She's no pilot; the plan is to hide aboard there in the smuggler's compartments which having worked there she knows about.
That's when she finds Han and Chewie, busily stealing the ship back. But the Falcon is seriously damaged and so she plays R2-D2 by getting it fixed. Which she absolutely knows how to do as a scavenger. While Finn shoots and Han/Chewie fly.
At that point, she's force-sensitive, excellent in hand to hand combat, and a brilliant thief/mechanic. But she clearly has limits. Those limits add to the tension of her confrontation with Kylo later.
Then later while be shuttled away, she overhears Kylo "praying" to Darth Vader for strength. She feigns still being unconscious. Her native force talent lets her resist the mind probe, and she pretends to have read his mind when in reality her savvy let her figure out what he was thinking. He freaks out as before and she celebrates her victory.
Leave the whole rest of the movie as before. Except that her escape was due to weird coincidences that are openly acknowledged as WTF moments that they can't explain. Later in the next movie we find out that Luke has been watching her and helping her remotely.
Now Rey is still a badass, still very very competent, but no longer this amazing-at-everything unrelateable polymath. It also casts Luke in the next movie as more like Yoda or the Emperor-- a remote being of immense power who is guiding the destiny of the Galaxy despite living the life of a hermit.
>>44625883 Perfect, except for the Luke watching her thing. Seems a bit silly to me.
That only fixes Rey's character though. It still doesn't help how stupid Starkiller base ended up being. They tried to one up the death star, but all we see it do is blow up a balcony full of random people and some CGI planets. Even worse, it locks the whole end of the movie into a rehash of Episode 4. Doing away with starkiller, or perhaps leaving it till the last movie, would have made TFA much better.
>>44624341 >Obi-Wan and Anakin hated each other in the movies.
Obi-Wan was like a father or an older brother to Anakin, but that also meant that he was the one constantly keeping Anakin within the boundaries of the rules. Anakin was headstrong and didn't always think about the consequences of his actions or just the risks in general.
They're not being the best of bros every scene, but their disagreements and bickering come from years of familiarity and caring for one another. Anakin even says in the second movie that Obi-Wan is the closest thing he has to a father.
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