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Question of the day:
What have you experienced in your games when it comes to That Guy?
Time to completely whore myself out with a repost. So here goes
Ok /wodg/ I bring you some good things. I've been searching for good clanbook scans (no offense Ian, I buy and bought the books when I can, but not everyone can) and I found a torrent with all the clanbooks in text only format so that you can actually read them (someone was a trooper and retyped all of that stuff)
Because that torrent had no seeds and I got them just now, I reuploaded them all to my 4shared and here are all the links, enjoy
Hi guys, i have a problem.
I have started this vtm game with my friend, we had three sessions, and next week we'll have our third. I am finding very difficult coming up with the story... if there is a storyteller here who can give me some advice i would appreciate that.
I don't mean specific advice
>put x on your story
but something more of how can i do or stuff.
Sorry for bad english, not my native language.
If you've ever read a book or seen a movie, it's something like that.
You have something happen.
And some reason for the player characters to get involved. The characters probably have histories and background information that let you know their interests. If not, since vampire society is politicized and based on a lot of alliances, it's simple enough to have their sire or another "superior" order them to do it.
The PCs look into it, and you have it focus their abilities so that they can get some headway. For instance, if all the characters are social characters, you'll want it to be heavier than normal on the social side of things. If they're combat-oriented, you can have them just go beat up folks until they get what they want. Often you have to find a sort of balance between the two, so the players work together and come up with a series of plot hooks that lead them to the next chapter.
Throughout the chapters they can have hindrances from sources near (maybe one of their sires doesn't want them to succeed) and far (it's all being manipulated by an elder in another country). Eventually, though, the players see their goal within reach, the story (both the importance of the plot and the risk to the players) rises towards a climax and they succeed or fail (for fractious groups, maybe some succeed and some fail), and are rewarded or punished for it.
A big thing to remember is that vampire games are primarily social, so you'll want a big list of characters that are interesting and unique enough for your players to remember them. You can use these guys to further the plot, distract the players or just build up the atmosphere of your story or all those things and more.
No, i meant friends, they are 3. They are a Ventrue, a Nosferatu and a Follower of Set.
Okay, this helps but it is also a bit confusing. Do i have to create only the setting (npcs, places and shit) and a few events united by a general indipendent storyline and then let them free to act? And see what happen?
Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition.
>tfw bought Clanbook Malkavia off of amazon cause it was cheaper than DTRPG and it came all bent and torn
Is it wrong of me that I want to run a 1980's-themed VTM game based on pic related?
Also, canonically, was Miami a Camarilla or Sabbat domain?
What are your opinions on Promethean: The Created? I would really love to run/play in a game, but I've never actually heard of any group who played it, or at the very least played a full chronicle with it, and would like some commentary on it.
I've never actually read any of it. There used to be someone around here that played a good bit of it. Went by the name of Lace, they're still around somewhere. I think it looks hella interesting, might check out the 2e.
I wish my group had any interest in WOD whatsoever. I own half-dozen of the core rules (VTM, WTF, MTA, NWOD, VTR) because I love the fluff, but my group (of otherwise great guys, so no plans to find another group) just generally dislike both the settings and system.
Guess i'll just go play Bloodlines for the hundredth time.
I forgot to get the ready made characters pdf from the Kickstarter and now my link is apparently out of date and I can't seem to get it. Do you think Rich could help me out if I used the contact me bit?
They're all creepy in their own way. It's just different flavours of creep. Mekhet are the kind who make you shiver for fear of being watched, Daeva make you shiver because you can't control yourself, Ventrue give you the chills because they're so much bigger than you, Gangrel remind you that there's nothing stopping them from just ripping your head off if they felt like it...
It was part of a LARP, I think his line of thought came largely from the others that had rolled a Mekhet. I definitely think if I were allowed another chance at Requiem, but on a tabletop, I'd try to make another similar character. Private Investigator Ordo Mekhet.
>Mekhet are the fucking creepiest of the clans
What about the Ventrue line of fat fucks that eat bodies and are complete and total tanks with fortitude and bonuses to both size and stamina.
Fuck humanity, get bitches and eat them
Oh, all the clans are disturbing, sure. But the Mekhet are the only ones explicitly described as having a non-human origin. The original Mekhet were instead chitinous slithery things.
Dig around for this Requiem book and you could probably adapt some lore and ideas for the Masquerade
Sabbat, though I think it's been contested a few times. If I recall, the Archbishop was kinda flakey and would always try mounting offensives Northwards, though they really didn't go anywhere.
eh, I wouldn't see Daeva as Twilight-esque. I don't see ANY of the clans being Twilight-esque. Daeva sensuality and pleasure-seeking isn't "lets go dancing with the Kine" funtimes, it's more "I can't help myself from doing this terrible thing, what is happening to me"
Okay, /wodg/, it's Storytime.
Sit back, relax, and enjoy this trainwreck of a one-shot.
So, after at least two weeks of trying to do this one-shot, we finally do it, with the coterie growing from 2 kindred (me and the Ventrue) to 4.
The Coterie consists of the following people:
Me - I played a Nosferatu gangbanger, with the base concept image being the pic in the OP, who, at the start of the session, has started a brawl in a gay bar, which I originally thought was a rival gang bar. I'm playing him as a sort of loose cannon, who's all about respect, and helping out his homies, etc, etc. I acted a bit like That Guy, but was overshadowed by the Brujah Edgelord. I have 4 Humanity at the start of the session. It went down further.
Bard - The other original guy, Bard played a Ventrue, and was the main source of damage control, other than the ST. Great guy, good roleplayer, overall nice guy. Eventually we were mutually trying to take out the Edgelord for the group's safety.
Edgelord - That Guy. Played a Brujah with 5 dots in Resources, meaning he was rich as fuck. Spoke with a thicker accent than Pandora, even though he was Romanian. He used the Brujah tendency to rage as an argument to justify his actions, which meant that he got angry and homicidal at the slightest thing. He growled and hissed and shit like he was a fucking furfag to help "roleplay" the vampire, in addition to posting fucking google image search links in roll20 and constantly orgasming over his fucking Lamborghini. He's also apparently in another group with the German and the guy who Pandora wanted to bring in as a secondary ST, so I dunno what else he does.
German - The sanest motherfucker in the group. Played a Caitiff who was basically given an ultimatum to find out what was happening with the whole disappearing kine, or get killed. Other than Pandora and Bard, he tried his hardest to do damage control, as futile as it was. He was also German, with a glorious accent.
I think it's generally more a case that you could play a Twilight style vampire more easily in certain clans than others. A Daeva could have himself a complex over feeding on those poor vulnerable teenage girls he likes smelling so much for example.
If anyone had to be branded with such a label it'd be Toreador, hang out with kine and pretend to have emotions while going sanic speed just like Edward does. I imagine it's cold comfort for the degenerates that they were around first. Maybe in universe where Twilight might be a Kindred misinfo project the author based Edward off some insufferable Toreador they knew.
Story shenanigans happen to lead the other three Cainites, I mean Kindred, since this /is/ a Camarilla game, to my Nossie's haven. In the meantime, at the behest of my sire, I leave the gay bar in a horrified state, after calling the patrons faggots and shooting my gun in the air a few times (I had just realized that it was a gay bar, after passing a Perception test). As I get to my apartment, I get another call from my sire explaining that the guys I see outside my apartment are gonna help us save our asses (specifically, my ass). Now, the other guys know about the Nosferatu and their ugliness, but I'm not that ugly, due to a merit, but I'm still the first Nossie they've met. They all try not to show a huge reaction and it works.
Edgelord's Brujah freaks the fuck out, and pulls out a FUCKING SHOTGUN and aims it at me. Bard uses Dominate to calm him down and succeeds. I proceed to introduce myself, warily. In the meantime, Edgelord goes to his car and gets cigars to give to everyone. He does so, and my character, seeing this as the Brujah trying to buy his respect, gets pissed off and throws a punch, and then everything went to shit.
So, I fuck up my roll to get a free attack, and we roll Initiative.
Edgelord gets the higher roll, while German and Bard stay out of it for the moment. Edgelord immediately pulls the shotgun out. We collectively go "What the fuck." At this point Bard steps in between us and tries to disarm Edgelord while German successfully grabs me and holds me back. When it gets to Edgelord's turn again, he does this growling thing and gets mad...and then Pandora makes him roll for Frenzy.
He fails the Frenzy check, and immediately pounces on Bard, pummeling the shit out of him. I convince German to let me go and help Bard restrain Edgelord, he agrees IC, and proceeds to do so, while I explain the Frenzy to the poor Caitiff bastard. Once they had him restrained and calmed down, I grabbed the shotgun and tried to blow his head off...
Zed you sound like you were just as much a problem as this Romanian hissing guy. I bet his version of the story paints you as the idiot and himself as just the one reacting to it.
>I acted a bit like That Guy, but was overshadowed by the Brujah Edgelord.
Like I said, I acted a tad like That Guy.
And yeah, maybe it does paint me as an idiot.
I'm still not the one with the shitty edgemaster supreme character who pulled a goddamn shotgun out in response to a punch.
Anyway, on with the story.
I botched the roll, and the shotgun doesn't fire. At which point, German stops grappling him and tackles me to the ground, sending the shotgun elsewhere. As a result of things I don't entirely remember, I get a face full of buckshot, courtesy of Bard after getting back to my feet. In the mean time, Edgelord tries to Entrance me, but fails, and runs to his Lamborghini and starts revving the engine (using a soundboard to illustrate), in preparation to run me over. I hobble over to go back inside my haven, with German sort of following me, while Bard grabs the shotgun, and shoots the car in an attempt to stop Edgelord from running me over.
Edgelord starts growling and getting mad, and proceeds to try and run Bard over. Bard fails his dodge roll, and gets rammed into the wall.
Alright, I'm getting tired, and the willpower to do a full write-up is fading, so I'm just gonna do a highlights reel.
Highlights of the trainwreck:
>I shoot Edgelord in the kneecaps and the head
>I shoot Edgelord in the head again
>I get knocked out while trying to dodge Edgelord, who tried to run me over again
>Damage Control finally works, as Edgelord goes off to find German, who'd run off during all of this.
>Rival Gangstas appear, looking for me.
>Bard convinces them to only send two guys into the apartment with him while he heals me
>Bard gives me two blood points to heal me, unknowingly starting a blood bond with me.
>I wake up, see a rival gang member, and frenzy.
>Bard hides behind the gangsta as I drain the gangsta dry.
>I'm still in Frenzy, and Bard tries to Dominate me but fails, so I take 3 blood points from him.
>I recover, drop to Humanity 3
Continued Highlights Reel
>More stuff happens involving German that I don't really see, since I was busy making a sammich
>German comes and gets us, conveniently telling us about the second gangsta calling for more guys to come get me.
>I interrogate the gangsta and end up snapping his neck, which drops me down to Humanity 2.
>We end the session there.
So, yeah. 4 hours of trainwreck.
We're gonna try and put everything behind us for the next session, which'll be in about 2 weeks.
On the plus side, now I can consciously murder people without rolling Conscience.
I could also join a Path of Enlightenment.
The concept is good. It's just more difficult than the other lines to play because EVERYTHING hates you. People, animals, even the ground itself rejects your unnatural existence.
You and me found it hilarious, but in hindsight it was a waste of time, considering we had a really great ST and 3 other guys who were pretty great at roleplay.
There would have been a lot of substance if it wasn't for edgelord.
I hope I get to listen to more sessions with you and those guys. Maybe I'll even join someday...
In GMC rules, what is the downside to losing integrity as a human?
The game doesn't spell out any reduction in social awareness, you don't seem to get NPCed at zero, and you don't get derangements as you degen. Why should a player be afraid to fall too low, and maybe buy back up?
Second question: Are all 1v1 unarmed fights in GMC rules just terrible? Like, logically, two fit men fighting each other with their bare hands would be lucky to even deal 1 bashing to each other. That rarely happens, so it isn't a problem, but it means that characters with okay defense (say 3) and good athletics (3) make feral creatures (that wouldn't logically have a ranged attack) look like chumps. 6 defense would reduce most dice pools to nil. Is this working as intended?
Another anon recommended using tilts and conditions to make it better, but that could be hard without an asspull. Oh man, the high defense guy just happens to get blinded... again. Oh no, the high defense guy trips over some rough terrain that drops his defense.
No, sorry, Revised
thanks, anon. I finally get to use this pic as well
Yeah, in the beginning it was just funny but then it got frustrating. I talked to the edgelord, suggesting I run a personal session for him but he said no. Thing is, he got pissed off at Zed for, as he said trashtalking. I didn't quite notice the trashtalking but I will agree that Zed attacking him for offering a cigar was a bit too much.
In the end I think what happened was that everyone was getting increasingly irritated at edgelord for acting like a Count fucking Dracula (the fact that he's Romanian just makes it all the more funny) and the cigar was sort of like a fuse for Zed. I will be honest, I don't think the group will work that will with the edgelord present because people will be annoyed by his behaviour and I get the feeling that things will lead to violence either way (even though both parties promised to behave)
>In the end I think what happened was that everyone was getting increasingly irritated at edgelord for acting like a Count fucking Dracula (the fact that he's Romanian just makes it all the more funny) and the cigar was sort of like a fuse for Zed.
In-character, the cigar was the catalyst for me, but OOC, it was the continued bullshit he was doing.
See, him linking pics of cars wasn't irritating to me, nor was I irritated with his style or roleplay (I just thought it was a bit over-exaggerating) but half of the party is, and that's a problem.
I think he sensed the party's hostility and started responding IC
I'm one of the ST's for the German and the "Edgelord" and I can safely and honestly say that Zed is not only overreacting but eating shit with a cherry-picked bias.
First of all, this all happened when I linked Pandora's post a week ago about her searching for a few more players to her one-shot chronicle to my group - where German and Edgelord promptly responded.
Skipping all that, and both being excited about meeting new players, I decided that the best course for me was to see how another person would ST and give the said person a helping hand, so I offered to Pandora that I act as her First Mate during the chronicle.
All was fine and dandy until she put me in the group, where Zed and the others went all classical neckbeard going "eurocunts" and "fucking casuals" on us, crying about how we jumped from a "Pft, I remember when there was just two of us." passive aggressive gesture to a:
[07/09/2014 15:48:51] AlonelyBard: So many fucking people
[07/09/2014 15:49:16] Zed: ^
Before anybody decides to pick sides and kiss the ass of a known namefag, think of the casualties on both sides.
This is about the time when stoic Zed goes all condescending and judging (since this IS a Camarilla game, must I really remind you you shot a few gunshots in a club? talk about irony)
This is also the time when I have to remind Zed that bashing damage is the same for both punching and taking gunshots for Kindred. If your handsome Nosferatu (right..) spend some time not considering that as a hint hint nudge nudge for OOC metagaming hostility, you (because it seems you don't understand ROLEplaying) might want to think twice.
Reminding you that the Edgelord's character was a guy named Michael who he roleplayed as very arrogant and judgemental (cough cough, Zed?) was the reason he acted so odd. If this doesn't seem as a good excuse, since someone here doesn't really grasp the concepts of storytelling and ingame intrigue, Zed and his friends also gave the newcomers a very hostile greeting. (back to the neckbeards circlejerking themselves)
I'm not even here to pass judgement, just wanted everyone here who decides to go all "good guy Zed" to know both sides of the party. As Vampire players know, there's a bad guy and a worse guy. I'll leave it up to you to form your own opinions.
Thank you all for offering me such a terrifying storytelling experience and masquerading it as "someone else's fault."
I'm obviously biased, but I didn't really see that as serious. It seemed to be facetious, it's 4chan, you sort of expect that stuff.
We all had bad feelings about edgelord before we even started the session. So of course our reactions to him pulling a shotgun unexpectedly were a mixture of "WTF" and "Oh god here we go."
Bit counterproductive to play a nonlikeable character as someone who's a bit irritating OOC to some players. Even the IC characters have clashing personalities.
Not defending Zed, just saying the drama was bound to happen. And for the record, I liked the German guy, would hate to see him leave because of shitdrama.
While I'm trying to, this time, do damage control and talk to everyone ever at the same time, why was this bad? I never saw this as a shitty thing to do, I could have refused but it sounded like a new experience, so I decided to give it a go.
Fucking name slot.
Anyways, you've been around long enough to know the more people from /tg/ you get together the more things are likely to turn to shitposting and posturing. You do seem optimistic about that sort of thing but it can't have completely escaped your notice.
Plus as I understand it the game was recruited as a small game with a couple players, now suddenly there's double that number.
And the First Mate thing is just a sort of unnecessary kiss-ass thing to do.
>In GMC rules, what is the downside to losing integrity as a human?
You get increasingly closer to losing your mind, every time you lose you can get a condition or persistent condition (equivalents to derangements).
>Are all 1v1 unarmed fights in GMC rules just terrible?
No, combat tends to be pretty deadly for those involved.
>Gangrel remind you that there's a Beast inside of each one of us that wants to rip off each other clothes and have bestial sex all the night
Curse on Gangrel clan and how sexy they are. I never asked for this.
>You do seem optimistic about that sort of thing
Yeah basically this. I love /tg/ and 4chan, I love being here, I saw how many great things people can create here, so I thought this was the least I could do since there are so many people who don't have a game.
Well initially I did say it was for up to 4 people and 4 people did I get.
You finally managed to get people from here to play with you? Congratulations!
Gangrel. I like the honesty and the no nonsense hands on approach.
Also I suck at intrigue and diplomacy so I always pick the option capable of just tearing though the whole thing when it gets too much, or go innawoods.
Hentailarp-Chan? We need you!
Personal Horror is shit.
Outlaws 4 Life! OFFO
Not fell apart but I'm considering splitting the group into 2 and running them separately, since they're just oneshots anyway. I don't know. I won't make any decisions right now because it all just happened yesterday and we all need to cool off.
How most groups try to play it?
When I played VTR and MtAw, two things happened:
VTR: Only me and ST wanted personal horror, but other players just wanted "imma vampire with magick blood".
MtAw: The ST (now same as VTR) was stupid and egocentric/magical realm.
>When I played VTR and MtAw, two things happened:
Except these things didn't happen.
>VTR: Only me and ST wanted personal horror, but other players just wanted "imma vampire with magick blood".
Is something you wanted.
>MtAw: The ST (now same as VTR) was stupid and egocentric/magical realm.
Is just a base accusation against the ST.
I ST V20 and play nChangeling, never tried to run it. Ran some one-offs for nWoD mortals.
>in same universe as her main campaign
nah, it wasn't, I just took a random town from the States, since initially the players were Americans
Well, the group I played VTR and VTM with played personal horror literally the way that WeabooAnon/HentaiLARP-chan describes personal horror as.
A lot of pretentiousness, a lot of wangsting, and punishing players both in and out of character for character concepts that may remotely even be considered "cool" or interesting/not wangsty enough. Oh, and the group I played with was mostly consisting of goths and emo/scene kids, though from what I understand, that last part is the now exception rather than the norm with WoD gaming groups.
I would like to play one. I got an opportunity once, but my mic was shit and never played it.
In your mortals table, would you allow Psychs or Taumaturges? These days I got myself thinking in a Psych character.
He was a "ghoul" for one of my friend's vampire. I put ghoul in quotation marks because he wasn't blood-bounded. If I remmeber, this affects psych powers.
So, I'm thinking of putting Ada Wong in my Requiem game as a vampire, but I'm not sure which clan fits her best.
I'm leaning towards Mekhet or Daeva, but I'm still not sure.
It was just a one-off to get people interested in rp, so they were regular humans. I'm assuming what you mentioned is from other books like Second Sight or something.
yup. We are finishing the game in 2 weeks
>>34720436 >>34720391 >>34720371 >>34720366
My experience with personal horror is something akin to Dresden Files or Gurren Lagann, or something.
I played a Moros with a bushel of emotional issues: double murder suicide parents, molested by his loving uncle/guardian, abandoned by his mentor...
Most of the plots he got into were directly related to his backstory: Statutory rape, shitty parents, abandonment. The mentor who abandoned him actually married his high school sweetheart, and after she died he abandoned their daughter into my care (while faking his own death).
He was once more or less raped by a woman who was actually some 50 year old pedophile serial killer, and then he kidnapped her and tried to 'cure' her.
There was also a lot about how he accidentally abandoned this girl who's parents were just like his. When he was a cop, he saved her from them and put her in the care of relatives, but she'd keep calling him about her homework or monsters under the bed or things like that. But he finally asked her to only call if it was important. She stopped calling and he found her dancing half-naked in a cage in some vampire bar. She scared the crap out of him when she knew his name and then it hit like a gut punch that he left her in a bad situation and she didn't get out of it the way he did (spoilers: He's fucked up, he didn't get out of his situation, he Awakened and gets to punch things with shadows and solve ghost problems instead of dealing with his problems)
Their relationship was great, too. She eventually became his apprentice. He even ended up getting a permanent spell cast on himself to look younger for her... it was a weird game.
Although of note: Most of the stuff wasn't even dealing with the Abyss or anything like that. It was all situations that reminded him of his backstory.
And he dealt with it all by being a stubborn bulldog, and lots and lots of Willpower points.
>I played a Moros with a bushel of emotional issues: double murder suicide parents, molested by his loving uncle/guardian, abandoned by his mentor...
That's not just personal horror and more a huge mess.
A character in my game committed diablerie. For much of the game he was both worried about getting caught and wanting to do it again, despite knowing he shouldn't.
Hey, a huge mess breeds horror.
Or at least, what else would you call that mix of feelings? The twist in your stomach as something reminds you of other horrors, calls to mind a tumultuous past, and makes you worry for the future?
Then again, I'm a loser, and I get way into my characters. I mean, that bit with the pedophile rapist? He chased her through the Underworld where I *think* she turned the ghost of a teenage boy she had kill himself into a Geist. He ended up getting her in a park and she tripped and broke her neck and he freaked out and thought he killed someone. His response? Grab the body and take her home.
(Turned out it was just a Suppress Life spell)
Seriously, though, I'm doing an absolute piss job of conveying it, but my ST at the time was so amazing that I doubt I'll ever find anyone as good ever again.
I was also Lace The Promethean http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/7307326/
Shit, in my own game my werewolf had sex with a Pure werewolf and went through the same. with the added fear of having created a unihar (which they didn't, but it could have happened).
Personal horror doesn't have to be whining about shit.
>Or at least, what else would you call that mix of feelings? The twist in your stomach as something reminds you of other horrors, calls to mind a tumultuous past, and makes you worry for the future?
I was just making it clear you don't have to go that far. It can be a simple thing without your character having to have been molested and orphaned.
>It can be a simple thing without your character having to have been molested and orphaned
This man speaks the truth
Is that a deleted scene? I don't remember it. It looks awesome.
Oh, I wasn't implying you need to be molested and orphaned. Just that personal horror is personal, and doesn't need to involve the supernatural except as garnish.
Comparing to the diablerie thing, I had a character in a Hunter game who had Psychometry and the Drain (Willpower) Dread Power. She ended up accidentally killing her boyfriend with it (yesitwasonlywillpowershutupdrama) and maybe her nana. She didn't want any of the other characters to find out, because holy shit, murder the fuck out of the mutant.
Of course, the one person who DID figure out she drained away life with a touch was the asshole of the group, who started out once they were off the bus and met by trying to stab a teenage girl (her) with a combat knife.
"I have a secret that I don't want to be found out" is great for personal horror. And both of those things (Diablerie, dread powers) could even be done in a completely mundane game.
>Is that a deleted scene?
Nah. At least I don't think so.
Looks like you're right, it's just in the director's cut.
Ah, there seems to be a duplicate WoD general that I posted in. Reposting my question here then, since this is more active. Pic related.
It's basically about presence's aftereffects. Would be pleased to get some more answers.
Well, level 2, 4 and Majesty are very obviously supernatural and Majesty very forcibly makes people devoted to you, so people will be very confused about what happened.
I think you're looking into the "holding a grudge" tihng too much. If you use Entrancement on a random person I always interpreted as "they suddenly fall in love with you" and whether they resent you or not after what happened will depend on the person
Cause it's weird as fuck m8.
I do have a character idea planned out though in case I ever find myself in a position to play Wraith. Plus this one isn't bald, so it's even weirder
It isn't, you just have to either play with an ST and 2 or 3 players tops. Andthey all have to be good story tellers themselves that understand good drama and how to use the Shadow.
Or the ST controls the Shadows for a larger group, and generally focuses on the players.
oWoD is an infinitely more interesting setting than nWoD, prove me wrong.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
What's the VtR 2.0 book going to look like? Will it be the old book with updated text, Blood and Smoke with the Stryx stuff lopped off, or a whole new design? I hope it's either the first or the last option. I liked the art for the different clans in the first version of VtR core much more than I did the art in B&S.
The answers to your questions are in our press release:
> We’ll make a few cosmetic changes to Blood and Smoke and re-release it as Vampire: The Requiem, Second Edition. Players who bought the PDF or PDF + Print combos of Blood and Smoke from DriveThruRPG will receive a free PDF of Second Edition.
> UPDATE: By “cosmetic,” we mean logo and title changes, changing one header that was white on white to white on red, two one word typo corrections, and a fix to the Greek grammar in the cities chapter. There may also be an addition to the Special Thanks. No rules or setting will change, and Blood and Smoke won’t be outdated. It’s unlikely that the page numbers things are on will even change.
Well, Ian has a point >>34722981
But shouldn't the burden of proof be on you?
Even beyond that, oWoD was so tied to it's metaplot that not using it meant several rules would quickly stop applying to you. It wasn't as toolboxy as nWoD. There's also the fact that each game line has a vastly different underlying rules system, to the point that the differences between Vampire and Changeling are as different as Scion and Exalted.
And just as a general off the top of my head list:
? oWoD is more driven by metaplot
? oWoD's focus is on a punk rock sensibility of "stick it to the man" and all the organizations are outright evil or worth fighting against, with players often being pawns
? oWoD's themes are very much a product of the times, and don't fit as well in the modern age
? oWoD is mechanically worse, due to things like the impossibility of gauging power and swinginess that comes from shifting TNs, as well as the way the system has unnecessary clunky rolls
? oWoD's setting is very racist, and very built on stereotypes that are hard to play against
? nWoD in contrast uses broader strokes
? nWoD is a mechanical toolbox, allowing for easier control
? The mechanics of nWoD are smoother and simpler, and 2e tightens them further.
? nWoD focuses on personal stories instead of ancient conspiracies, but still allows for ancient conspiracies
? There's a lot less homogeny in both character creation and setting
? Apocalypse is shitty and the Garou Nation are outright evil
Should I go on? I tried to stick to things that are more or less objective, as opposed to "I like it this way". While you could like the things I mentioned as flaws, they're the things most often cited as flaws as well as the places that nWoD is cited as excelling.
Same book, different cover. Frankly I hope they keep the title and just subtitle it "Requiem second edition"
>it'll be BS with a different title and a few things shaped up
Euch. I really didn't like the art they used to represent the different clans in B&S. The old ones all were distinct; just by looking at them you instantly got a handle on what that clan was all about. The new art is just some bland waif with a different haircut or some canker sores as the only distinguishing feature to set them apart.
I feel like "A sourcebook for VAMPIRE the requiem" should just be replaced with "VAMPIRE the requiem second edition".
The 2e titles are really evocative and awesome.
But you did stick to the "I like it this way."
?oWoD is driven by metaplot which can be ignored
?The focus is definitely not fighting against evil. I don't mean to be antagonizing, but if that's all you learned from Vampire, I'd rather say it's not your cake. It's a game about intrigue and philosophical questioning. Just because you don't like being the pawn of someone and/or manipulating someone doesn't mean people don't.
?They fit greatly with the modern age seeing as to how the protagonists are undead demigods. If you're referring to the fact that the line was published many years ago and doesn't hold as well to this day and age lore is a thing you can change. Again, it obviously takes effort as a Storyteller to, well, Storytell.
?I personally think this is a matter of opinion. I like the system as it is because it's unforgiving. There's no "savegame" feature. Your choices have consequences.
?Again, how is this objective and not biased? Racism and stereotypes are both products of grimy, realistic society. I understand if this is not your interest, but don't judge based on your preferences.
Like I said, my point is not to prove how wrong you are, it's to show you that just because you don't like things doesn't mean they're automatically bad. You are not the center of the world. Unless you can prove actual points on how a system is superior to other instead of fluff (and I prefer intrigue and conspiration over personal stories, which you can both emulate in both system assuming you actually spend some time thinking it over), stay lurking.
>The old ones all were distinct; just by looking at them you instantly got a handle on what that clan was all about.
You instantly knew what a gangrel was like seeing this picture?
>it's a Mekhet
I'm being trolled, right?
This is page art for Gangrel, and it plays pretty well to the clan stereotype of creepy bestial mystics.
>This is page art for Gangrel, and it plays pretty well to the clan stereotype of creepy bestial mystics.
But this doesn't play to any of the clan stereotypes?
The metaplot is hard to ignore without getting rid of much of the setting.
I didn't say it was about fighting evil, I said that all the organizations are dicks; at least in nWoD they're dicks that you'd want to be part of.
There's also not really a lot of philosophical questioning.
Yes, I'm saying the game is so 90s that it drops it's "e"s and capitalizes the Xs.
>?I personally think this is a matter of opinion. I like the system as it is because it's unforgiving.
It really isn't. And you need to learn the difference between difficulty and challenge. The system is clunky and mechanically unweildy. Any system where you have a HIGHER chance of fucking up the better you get (botches show up more when you have higher dice pools) is flawed.
>?Again, how is this objective and not biased? Racism and stereotypes are both products of grimy, realistic society. I understand if this is not your interest, but don't judge based on your preferences.
You misunderstand again. The racism in oWoD doesn't come internally, it comes externally. The Clans and groups are all racist stereotypes. The Eshu are Magical Negroes, the Ravnos are thieving gypsies. The Gypsy book exists. So does Kindred of the East.
The stereotypes and racism aren't used internally to make the world feel darker, they're used to stereotype without putting thought into anything.
>Unless you can prove actual points on how a system is superior to other instead of fluff
I have. You failed to grasp them.
oWoD is mechanically flawed. The mechanics literally do not work in a reasonable way.
The 2e art is much, much better. For one, it's in colour and just drawn better.
>dat Gangrel looking like a Brujah
HHNNNNGG! M-M-MY HEART!
inb4 That's a Gangrel from Brujah bloodline That feel when no canon Tremere in Requiem. That feel when I have to houserule their existence.
I feel like this is a reference.
Kinda, yeah. So much of the mechanics are geared towards the existing setting. In particular, Werewolves and Vampires. Hell, Mage's, too.
Again, the metaplot is easy to ignore if you make an effort. It's called thinking.
How exactly is the fact that all organizations are dicks? There are three Sects which each have their own view on the view. Camarilla are pragmatic idealists, Sabbat are revolutionary cavaliers and the Iconnu are just that; Inconnu. How exactly does that count as any of them being dicks? (even the Sabbat.)
There is not a lot of philosphical questioning? I'm sorry, WHAT? I am literally astonished you actually wrote that sentence and didn't think "oh God, I'm so daft". I am not even going to explain it all because I'm afraid it will all go over your head.
Despite what green oWoD criticizers who haven't even played a session think, there is not a higher chance of fucking up the better you got. I don't even think you know math. Go onto Roll20 and roll a few 3d10's compared to an 8d10 with a difficulty of 7. If you botch more often on the higher roll, you're either the devil's spawn or have mechanically clunky fingers. You also seem to not grasp how the system revolves on the number of successes you acquire instead of simply winning. A 3d10 can only grant a complete success at best whereas a 5d10 allows you to acquire an exceptional success.
I fail to realise how you fail to realise that it's your fault for not being able to word things properly. This is definitely the reason for *my* misunderstanding. What's yours? The Ravnos have been retconned. Inform yourself before being the typical hate-spewing ass hat that doesn't know enough about a certain subject to talk about it and not get stabbed in his failure of an argument.
Please try again. Take your time, I'm all for tutoring thick people.
>Kinda, yeah. So much of the mechanics are geared towards the existing setting. In particular, Werewolves and Vampires. Hell, Mage's, too.
Metaplot is not setting. In Vampire it's just a matter of allowing the Ravnos and not switching out Dementation for Dominate for Malkavians.
>How exactly is the fact that all organizations are dicks?
Massive wankers who consolidate all their power into a global conspiracy dedicated to keeping secrets and sticking their fingers in their ears and acting like the Antideluvians don't exist. A vast covenant of nepotism and secrecy for the sake of secrecy. At least the Invictus are just Republicans.
LITERALLY evil, they spend most of their time grabbing people off the street and Embracing them to cause chaos, and most of their members are just murdering rapist sadist who aren't allowed with the ~pretty~ people in the Camarilla. In fact, it's kind of ridiculous that the Nosferatu are a Camarilla clan, because they have all the marks of a Sabbat group. I guess being useful means you're allowed to be ugly. Meanwhile the Losambra gather up all the ugly motherfuckers without Dominate and have them fuck shit up, all to further their goals.
>There is not a lot of philosphical questioning? I'm sorry, WHAT? I am literally astonished you actually wrote that sentence and didn't think "oh God, I'm so daft". I am not even going to explain it all because I'm afraid it will all go over your head.
Please, elaborate on what philosophy there is.
Also, I have a feeling I know who you are.
As for botches, refer to the experts
This is the last time I'm trying, because as I aforementioned, this is going over your head and I honestly feel I'm talking to a tree.
Again, this doesn't equal to evil. I'll take a bit of the philosophical explaining from my next sentences and drop it here: the world is in grey shades. Welcome to puberty.
"In fact, it's kind of ridiculous that the Nosferatu are a Camarilla clan, because they have all the marks of a Sabbat group."
"Meanwhile the Losambra.."
WOW. I'm leaving, because you just confirmed my doubts. This is what I get for assuming people aren't handicapped because they act like it. "Inform yourself before being the typical hate-spewing ass hat that doesn't know enough about a certain subject to talk about it and not get stabbed in his failure of an argument."
Have fun thinking you won this argument.
>the world is in grey shades.
No it isn't. In fact almost overwhelmingly the oWoD is just black and white, there's just a lot more black. Most of the conflict is black on black, not grey.
You still haven't said how anything is philosophical.
Why don't you explain to me why oWoD is great? Or even why nWoD isn't. Use your words instead of being petulant.
Why don't both of you explain what you mean by metaplot so that you're both on the same page?
>Why don't both of you explain what you mean by metaplot so that you're both on the same page?
I'm using the proper definition
Metaplot would involve the Ravnos Antedeluvian getting up and kicking ass and the Ravnos being killed off making them no longer playable. Or the changing of Malkavian disciplines and the Gangrel leaving the Camarilla.
These things are easy to ignore.
Ravnos still exist.
Malkavians have Dementation.
Gangrel are still in the Camarilla.
Setting is Caine creating the second generation, them creating the third, the betrayal of them against the second, the creation and existence of the Camarilla and Sabbat.
>No it isn't. In fact almost overwhelmingly the oWoD is just black and white, there's just a lot more black. Most of the conflict is black on black, not grey.
This is a pretty ambiguous statement.
The Sabbat can be seen as evil, but they're the only ones promoting the destruction of the antedeluvians. Considering what they do during the Gehenna book (practically end the world), that might have been a good plan.
The Camarilla do a lot of evil shit and act as puppets to the antedeluvians, but they also keep the Masquerade up and keep vampires from going crazy and eating everyone.
Metaplot is the main interconnecting storyline of that world/universe.
Fluff is what provides the context and info of the setting. The fluff is what's telling you about, say, what each of them clans likes, doesn't like and is up to.
If you're going to ignore the main story, a lot of the fluff loses its value. Sometimes a little (a clan can still hate another clan, though you can lose out on some of the 'why') sometimes a LOT (if there's no apocalypse, werewolves throwing themselves against it becomes a very different thing and makes what little sanity they had most questionable!), but rarely if ever is the fluff all perfectly normal, untouched and usable when you TAKE OUT THE METAPLOT.
That's my point. It's either civilized people with their head in their sand because acknowledging the Antideluvians ruins their plans... or uncivilized baby eating monsters who happen to want to kill Satan before he eats everyone.
They're not grey, they're black.
Anarchs aren't evil, but they're useless.
Sabbat trying to kill the Antedeluvians who are going to destroy the world.
Camarilla keeping vampires in line and not ravening like beasts murdering whoever they see.
Because they're overwhelmingly evil. Having a few good points doesn't mean you're grey. Grey would be wanting to save the world but having to make sacrifices.
Both the Camarilla and Sabbat are evil groups that happen to have one good goal. (Keeping the Masquerade and defeating the Antideluvians respectively)
They're otherwise wholly evil and irredeemable.
In both of these cases, there are no good intentions. The Sabbat is trying to kill the antedeluvians not to protect the world, but because they'd be among the corpses, and because wrecking shit is "their thing" now.
The camarilla is driven by fear and an odd mixture of superiority/inferiority complexes: They keep vampires in line because each wants to be "the boss" of the others, and because if their numbers get too ravenous they WILL be hunted the fuck down. They realize that if they don't keep a stranglehold on each-other it's going to end in a bunch of hunters, demons and archmages going all-out on "the bloodsucker problem"
>Because they're overwhelmingly evil.
The Sabbat is also inclusive to any willing to join them, enjoy Vaulderie and have codes such as the Path of Honorable Accord.
You clearly have a problem with morality.
>The Sabbat is trying to kill the antedeluvians not to protect the world, but because they'd be among the corpses,
The end result is the same.
>and because wrecking shit is "their thing" now.
Sure if you want to just make stuff up the Sabbat are also descended from angels, not Caine.
>The camarilla is driven by fear and an odd mixture of superiority/inferiority complexes
And you believe this equates to being overwhelmingly evil?
>The end result is the same.
Results have nothing to do with motives.
The Sabbat are inclusive because they need the numbers. They're a terrorist organization. The head doesn't care about the arms.
How so? Do you have an actual argument?
Results don't have anything to do with motives. Just because you want to save your own ass from getting eaten doesn't mean you're somehow a benevolent good guy.
Except it doesn't.
A good example is the occasional "see we caught a pedophile; he wanted to fuck your children" brandied about so people will assume that's the only use and goal of massive data collection and illegal wiretapping.
This is a benign result that just happens to have occured as a function of massive warrantless wiretapping, data collection or ISP back-doors.
It in no way makes the motives any less malicious or dirty, it just happens to be something those performing said acts can toss forward in order to pretend they give a fuck about anything other than fucking you up the ass with phone poles.
Not sure you know what arguments are.
Or what losing is.
I'm reminded of my own daughter, who declares herself the winner after changing the rules of whatever game she's gotten us "playing" with her six or seven times.
No I'm not. Hell, people have pointed out how it's true.
Having a few good traits doesn't make you "Grey". It just means you're an asshole who's doing something good for the wrong reasons.
I was talking about setting, not mechanics, but whatever.
The point is that you don't HAVE to use the metaplot, and with a good ST, it's not a problem at all. Otherwise, all your shit is subjective.
>hurr, i dont like punk goth and I think I have to use it DURRRR
>The metaplot is hard to ignore without getting rid of much of the setting.
lol, no it isn't. We're done it just fine, and could never even consider swapping to nWoD because it's so dull.
>And you need to learn the difference between difficulty and challenge
We were discussing the SETTING, you dumb fuck. And I don't play WoD like a fucking video game, it's about atmosphere, not "challenge".
>botches show up more when you have higher dice pools
Easily remedied by a simple house rule. I'm not willing to throw out the vastly superior setting just for that.
>The racism in oWoD doesn't come internally, it comes externally
Only if your ST sucks and plays it that way. God damn, how terrible are your STs anyway? Do you need to be spoonfed everything?
>oWoD is mechanically flawed.
Mechanics != setting, seriously. Get it through your thick skull.
You do realise that what was a discussion about plot and fluff turned into a discussion of ingame mechanics? Nobody ever said the mechanics are decidedly better.
Are all nWoD fans so fucking autistic or do neither of you like to admit you're smeared shit dumb?
Actually mechanics can and do often interfere or align with a setting.
Take Exalted 2e for example. By the mechanics, everything not a solar (and some dawns) would, in the first age, been utterly and permanently mind-thralled to their solar masters, with mere thought of rebellion nigh-impossible and marking you as some taboo creature of darkness to be struck down by all of creation long before it can get in any fashion organized, not that any such organizing could in any way, at all, ever go undetected.
And yet, historically within the setting, none of the mechanics happened. In fact, In-Setting the great curse is a slow but rather nasty descent into "you monster", but in-system you just occasionally break down and get really sad unless you spend a willpower, for a scene.
Mechanics can be utterly disconnected from a setting (D&D's magic system vs all of the stories, fluff and novels for example, as even forgotten realms ain't Dying Earth), or intertwined with it, and in the latter case they can either help support it, or fight it every step of the bloody way.
There's quite a lot about the oWoD setting that's stupid. I mentioned some of it. The organizations are bad, the groups are bad, the choices are narrow, and the tone is outdated.
>Mechanics != setting, seriously. Get it through your thick skull.
And how was I supposed to know that when you only explain it >>34725810 several posts after my initial post?
>We were discussing the SETTING, you dumb fuck.
In the post you're quoting, the part you're quoting, was from where I quoted someone talking about the system. So, no, we weren't talking about the SETTING. More than that, the atmosphere really isn't that much better.
>Only if your ST sucks and plays it that way. God damn, how terrible are your STs anyway? Do you need to be spoonfed everything?
I don't seem to see what being spoonfed anything--or ST quality--has to do with a racist setting of Magical Negroes and other racist caricatures.
>lol, no it isn't. We're done it just fine, and could never even consider swapping to nWoD because it's so dull.
As other people have pointed out, there IS a translation guide for playing oWoD in nWoD's mechanics. I personally find the setting to be fucking stupid, but hey, you love it, why not play it with better mechanics?
Yeah, 'cause that's what I said. Meanwhile in the nWoD you have factions that aren't the lesser of two evils. Even the problems that the factions have aren't faction-wide, they're problems that are primarily to do with sub-factions. Because they're not anywhere near as homogenous.
Is there any game mechanic in cWoD about spending your experience points in game? I'd really like to discover a cyberpathic ability on the brink of death, turn off the laser gun pointed at me and also the lights, and escape like a boss.
>It just means you're an asshole who's doing something good for the wrong reasons.
Welcome to the real world then.
We weren't even discussing mechanics, faglord.
See above. Also, you can hourserule most of the stuff out if you have more than 2 braincells. How exactly is the ever-popular "more dices = more botches" intrinsically tied to the cWoD setting for example?
Oh, really? Link me the post where it says oWoD mechanics are better than nWoD mechanics and I will happily admit defeat and fuck off to my nest.
Right, you can't find it. Why? Because grandiose nWoD asskissers decided to divert the discussion about lore and skip to the merry mechanical part because that's what people do when their discussions is going to shit; change the subject.
You insult, but you do not show where any white (that would grey the black up) is to be found.
When an organization is black and dark-grey, you cannot exactly claim that there's plenty of good to balance out the bad.
Emily, grow up and quit with the whiny name calling childish bullshit.
You can't seem to focus on one conversation. Are you talking about setting or mechanics?
I've pointed out problems with both of them.
You also said that you stick with oWoD because you prefer the setting, but people have suggested how to have the setting with better rules.
>Actually mechanics can and do often interfere or align with a setting.
Also for a different example, much of Blood and Smoke's mechanics REALLY serve to hammer home and highlight a lot of the themes of the setting. Touchstones, for instance. I really love how they're done.
I'm the one who said things were black and black. And they really are. Both sides are stupid.
Gray and gray would be two groups who are morally ambiguous opposing each other. There's no ambiguity in the Camarilla vs. Sabbat, though.
>We weren't even discussing mechanics, faglord.
Yes, we have been. You're the only one who seems to say we're not, even though you--or someone as annoying and bitchy--keeps talking about mechanics.
And the real world isn't two blatantly evil vampire groups.
>The organizations are bad, the groups are bad, the choices are narrow, and the tone is outdated
Let's see, subjective, subjective, subjective and subjective. Nice argument.
>how was I supposed to know
Especially the part about: "oWoD is an infinitely more interesting setting than nWoD" ...with emphasis on SETTING, not mechanics. Derp
Please, are you like 12 years old? This is all up to how the ST plays it. My group plays oWoD and we've never met a single racist stereotype.
>there IS a translation guide for playing oWoD in nWoD's mechanics
That is another topic entirely, but there are certain rules that are inferior in nWoD too, I'd argue. (For example, the whole "blood potency" as opposed to generation. This is actually a good example of rules being tied to the setting, yet oWoD comes out decidedly ahead, instead of the video gamey shit of spending XP to boost your BP.)
>Even the problems that the factions have aren't faction-wide, they're problems that are primarily to do with sub-factions
Exactly, you lack drama. You just a bunch of boring shits hanging around. How exiting.
You literally have no idea how morality works, do you? Black and black means everyone is naturally evil. The nun across the street is evil because she didn't give 5$ to the homeless woman across the street, right?
Wake up. There's no such thing as a solid good and evil. There's lesser evils and lesser goods. Please, stop playing Vampire and go play D&D. You are losing each and every bit of its meaning. It is ALL going over your head.
I hope to Christ you are not the same idiot who said Vampire is not philosophical, because you're one of these rare people who should not be allowed to breed.
I can agree with that, though I still think cWoD has a more fun setting (as do every single other player I've met)
If they were to make a movie or a video game based on WoD, guess which one it'd be? PROTIP: Not nWoD, because nobody thinks it's interesting.
If you care to go to the root of the discussion, you'll see that this was always a setting discussion, and it was you fags who tried to bring mechanics into it.
ITS NOT ENTERTAINING
IT WILL LEAD TO NOTHING
(COUNTER) TROLLING HENTAILARP-CHAN WAS ENTERTAINING, WATCHING YOU TWO BICKER FOR NEARLY THREE HOURS IS NOT!
The thing i learned from the Hentailarp-Chan incident is that you have to be at least as annoying as the people annoying you Sorry folks
>oWoD is mechanically worse, due to things like the impossibility of gauging power and swinginess that comes from shifting TNs, as well as the way the system has unnecessary clunky rolls
>nWoD is a mechanical toolbox, allowing for easier control
>The mechanics of nWoD are smoother and simpler, and 2e tightens them further.
>There's a lot less homogeny in both character creation and setting
Whoever that was, that was the first claims regarding mechanics. Following this:
>>34723340 states "I like the system as it is because it's unforgiving. There's no "savegame" feature. Your choices have consequences." and demands proof of a system being better, also exclaiming that he can emulate intrigue and conspiracy in both which is kind of off-topic for that specific point
>A table is later posted showing that for difficulty 7+, early increases in dice pools do in fact increase botch chance, though most dice pools are past that bump as for difficulties below 9 the chance is already going down at pools of 3 or higher. Still, discussing mechanics that is.
>>34725893 stating that by house-ruling the problems away you can have a vastly superior setting without worry.
>>34725959 declaring no one halfway up the thread ever said anything about mechanics.
Well, clearly you've never had a ST who makes characters who aren't 100% pure evil. What can I say, poor you.
>Are you talking about setting or mechanics?
For the 8th time, SETTING. You are the ones who brought mechanics into this (because you already know that you can't win the settings argument)
>Both sides are stupid.
OH, so much like REAL LIFE then? HOW INTERESTING! Perhaps even more interesting than some baby-land fantasy where everyone is perfectly logical and nice to each other.
>There's no ambiguity in the Camarilla vs. Sabbat, though
Except there is, which you have already admitted. Both sides have negatives and positives.
>You're the only one who seems to say we're not
Nope, it's not even only me. I started off by saying specifically that it was the SETTING which was superior, see >>34722958
Start paying attention, eh?
The discussion stemmed from an nWoD fan insisting we suddenly talk about mechanics. Again, >>34722958 was about PLOT and SETTING.
Hard to grasp it all, isn't it? I don't even know why I'm trying to argue with you. It's like you're mentally blind.
>nWoDfags in charge of keeping overview.
Look at your own post for a moment. Note how it was only nWoDfags who started with the mechanics. Naturally, since you guys are great at changing subjects, some of us commented off-hand that, hmm, not all nWoD rule changes are necessarily all that great either, BUT, who even cares, because we're talking about setting, not mechanics.
Then you come along and go OLOLOL YOU STARTED IT, YOU STARTED IT! like a child.
Werewolf is also a game of playing complete assholes who claim they're good guys.
>I started off by saying specifically that it was the SETTING which was superior
You've still yet to back that claim up.
I also can "win" a setting argument. nWoD's setting is much more interesting. No one is outright evil (except the antagonist factions), even the groups that I hate and think are stupid (the Lancae et Sanctum, the Thearchs) have goals beyond "let's get power for power's sake".
Also, real life is not like Vampire. There are good factions, and there are evil factions who do good things out of the goodness of their hearts, not simply for the sake of not being eaten (Hell's Angels doing Toys for Tots, Yakuza helping rebuild after an earthquake
though that might be for their own benefit). Even your outright evil groups like Haliburton, the Koch Foundation, and whatever Blackwater is calling themselves this week aren't as silly and cartoonish as the oWoD groups.
I'd really like to know why you think nWoD is worse or why oWoD is better. You started this by saying "prove me wrong", but you won't accept any proof. So why not prove yourself right?
There's a lot more than just two people here...
>STOP FIGHTING! ;_;
Why are you even here? This is a place to discuss WoD. Even if the discussion is a bit heated at times, it's better than the endless circlejerk of
>ohai guise, check out my character, pretty kawaii, huh? :3c
>have a gander at my shitty homebrew! I'm sure everyone thinks catgirls will fit in greatly with WoD
>lol THAT GUY, amirite?! xDDD AMIRITE???
>i did this in a game! HILARIOUS
>transsexual game developers turn me on! :D
>I PLAY WRAITH, I'M SPECIAL!
>lot more than two people here
Although I'm pretty sure the one calling everyone a "nwodfag" is just one guy pretending to be three or four.
Either way I've been here like 20 minutes and thus am still amused.
>Werewolf is also a game of playing complete assholes who claim they're good guys.
You can play a good guy even so. Or you can play Mage or Mummy that even if they have their share of evil (due to being WoD after all) they got a nicer theme.
Also, nWoD have its own share of bastards too.
People shitflinging continuously over nWoD vs oWoD is absolutely not better.
I'd rather have pdfanon posting his shitty homebrew and begging for feedback for an entire thread than this.
Go ahead and samefag detect us. How much do you want to bet we're different?
Holy shit, you're actually pulling the amused card? What next? You're going to call us "cute" and "pitiful"?
I only joked when I called those above autists, but you fit in like a glove.
>You've still yet to back that claim up.
Did you just not see the post I linked to? Here, I'll do it again, just for you:
>oWoD is an infinitely more interesting setting than nWoD
>"let's get power for power's sake"
Wait, this is what you think oWoD is all about? That explains a lot.
>Also, real life is not like Vampire. There are good factions, and there are evil factions
Again, are you 12 years old? Do you think MURRICA is only good? (Or only evil, for that matter?) Do you believe that some people are inherently "good guys" and aren't just products of their environments?
>outright evil groups like Haliburton, the Koch Foundation, and whatever Blackwater is calling themselves this week
Right, because they're interested in sowing misery and "being evil", because that's what they find fascinating. I think you need to reexamine your definition of "evil"
>I'd really like to know why you think nWoD is worse or why oWoD is better.
Because the setting is richer. nWoD feels like someone make a cheap knock-off, neatly removing any of the interesting stuff in the name of game balance, which to me just screams "i'm playing the game wrong!"
I could go into a lot more detail, but I'm getting tried of this discussion. Suffice to say, we shall have to agree to disagree.
>can't handle the banter
Do you seriously think by saying "fag", I'm implying something about homosexuals? Because if so, you haven't been on 4chan for more than a week.
Okay, you can have PDFanon later on. We're just evening the quotas, since these threads tend to be 99% boring shit that nobody cares about (except you guys I suppose)
What can I say man? I'm glad there's at least one other sane person out in this thread.
Oh, nWoD absolutely has bastards. But they're a lot less bastardy compared to oWoD. I mean, there's a reason that the Pure are so similar to the Garou Nation.
And the Garou Nation are so pants on head evil that there are even groups in oWoD supplements who are meant to be just like the Garou Nation to make PCs go "wow, we're in a cult".
"It's infinitely better" doesn't tell us HOW. It says nothing.
>Because the setting is richer
In what way?
>nWoD feels like someone make a cheap knock-off, neatly removing any of the interesting stuff in the name of game balance, which to me just screams "i'm playing the game wrong!"
In what way?
Also, in this case "game balance" seems to mean "playability", but I thought WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE MECHANICS?
>mfw people are still discussing the eternal never stopping oWoD vs nWoD
>mfw I like both
>mfw seeing this people arguing is delicious
Yes, continue. Entertain me, my slaves!
I think the average fan enjoys both. They both have their merits and flaws.
I think oWod fans are the direct result of Bloodlines or being a goth gognard. Mostly the former, I think, because I can't imagine many people were old enough to play oWoD in its prime.
So in conclusion, I blame VTM: Bloodlines.
>Everyone is a bastard in WoD.
The Uratha are pretty good guys. They have bad dudes, but they do good work, keeping two worlds from wrecking each other.
They even made books to help you do it. But it doesn't matter, since most of the people here don't play it's more about trivia and opinion wanking over fluff, than anything that actually comes up in play.
They're also not the player character group.
I don't understand it either. I'm honestly surprised they released V20 with an updated version of the old rules instead of tooling nWoD mechanics to the old fluff.
I mean, I can understand "don't cross the streams", which is why WotC doesn't set DnD in Zendikar, but still.
>doesn't tell us HOW
Exactly, why do you think I said "prove me wrong"? Because I find it funny how people can't defend nWoD's setting without IMMEDIATELY changing the subject.
>In what way?
Because it has a lot more content to take from? The way good STs do it is they read the "metaplot", then discard what they don't like, but usually get some good ideas in the process. With nWoD, it's just... nothing.
Consider that there are no Malkavians, no Brujah, no Tzimisce, no Tremere. Sure, you can try to force them into your game, but again, oWoD already have them.
>In what way?
Dude, can't you see what you're doing now? The same as me, going LOL PROVE ME WRONG xD
But taking the bait, the consolidated most of the clans, making each one less interesting, all in the name of "streamlining".
>lol people surely can't keep track of so many clans, let's just make a dozen bloodlines instead, GENIUS!
>I thought WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE MECHANICS?
Well, you keep insisting on it. My point was that nWoD seems to have sacrificed setting for play-ability. This doesn't really affect the argument that "nWoD setting is shit", it only explains why it is what it is. Please, it's like I'm talking to a teenager.
Actually, I started with the game about a year ago. Funnily enough, my group vastly prefers oWoD, even after such a long time with nWoD out. After having reviewed both, I have to say I agree with them.
>Uratha are pretty good guys
>picking one side even knowing there's two versions of same story
>not feeling bad for spirits because a bunch of wolfies decided to do thinks against them because of a legend that they don't even know if there's real or not
>basing all their concepts in a thing that probably isn't even real
>same is true for Pure
Yeah, sure. Just because they "protect" mortals doesn't really mean they are good.
Only vampire, because it's the setting our group (and most groups by the sound of it) enjoys. I'm REALLY not interested in playing a fucking fairy or a spirit medium.
>im so special, I like wraith! :DDDDD
Exactly, you're a unique little snowflake. Don't be surprised when people don't agree with you.
>Exactly, why do you think I said "prove me wrong"? Because I find it funny how people can't defend nWoD's setting without IMMEDIATELY changing the subject.
But... you've also failed to defend your setting without changing the subject...
>Because it has a lot more content to take from?
I think at this point nWoD and oWoD actually have the same amount of content.
>Consider that there are no Malkavians, no Brujah, no Tzimisce, no Tremere. Sure, you can try to force them into your game, but again, oWoD already have them.
The reason for that is because they're unnecessary. Instead of having thirteen different rigid stereotypes, you have five very loose ones. It has nothing to do with people not being able to "keep track" of so many clans. It's that the clan/bloodline dichotomy allows for much more flexibility. You don't need to be part of the Malkavian/Brujah/Tzimisce/Tremere clan to play that kind of character. You can do it in any clan.
And for someone who claims that it's all about the ST, you sure do complain that nWoD is less "interesting". To me, oWoD is less interesting with it's needlessly different clans that are all far too niche to make interesting characters.
The Uratha are literally told by a mother goddess what to do. The Pure on the other hand are petulant children who's goal is asinine. They blatantly ignore the Urfarah's duty. Like, both sides agree on that, it's just that the Pure don't care and the Uratha do.
I've never played Wraith.
I had a feeling you only played Vampire though (a year doesn't offer much time), and making a blanket statement like "oWoD > nWoD" based on ONE line is just stupid.
Your opinion is confined to VTM>VTR, which is fine, but don't be spouting bullshit about the entire WoD setting if your knowledge is limited to one line.
That'd be like me saying nWoD is better than oWoD because Vigil is better than Reckoning.
This is the main problem with oWoD. The groups all have one single personality, and variations on that personality. In nWoD even without things like Bloodlines, you have very disparate groups.
>trusting in a woman
Jokes apart, everyone knows Luna is a crazy bitch. Just like in Pure side of story, she can be sweet and manipulative and other stuffs they say. I really wouldn't trust on her worlds.
The only option I could see is help Pure tribe to find all Father Wolf pieces and try to ressurect him so he can clarify all this shit.
Also, Pure tribe being "bastard" is so "black and white". I read their book and could see nice people their, but people driven by their fanatism, just like average humans.
>That'd be like me saying nWoD is better than oWoD because Vigil is better than Reckoning
I literally just went to the other room to fetch my cellphone in order to bypass an unjustified IP-range ban to kek at this statement
Here's the thing, retconning the Ravnos out of existence was a big mistake, because some people (like me) actually liked the late 2e/early Revised version of the Ravnos where they were presented as Indian Hindu vampires instead of thieving gypsies.
And besides, any racism from the Ravnos pales in comparison to the likes of WoD: Gypsies or Kindred of the East.
Probably just an idiot. For some reason these generals seem to attract them.
I myself prefer Masquerade over Requiem, but I like CTL over CTD, and Vigil over Reckoning (though I've only ever done a one shot of Reckoning).
Luna's crazy, but both the Pure and Forsaken agree that policing the borders was Father Wolf's duty. The Forsaken do the right thing in making sure the Spirit and Mortal worlds don't destroy each other. The Pure on the other hand don't care about that, and want to form their own world where they're on top and humanity is nothing but cattle. I mean, they're pretty clear cut villains.
>I read their book and could see nice people their, but people driven by their fanatism, just like average humans.
Really? I read their book and I got the impression that they're fucking horrible. I mean, I even (almost) played an Ivory Claw, but my group felt he was too evil (the ST on the other hand felt he was perfect for a Pure game). In the end we ended up playing teenage girls.
It's a cartoonish and hollow portrayal of Eastern beliefs, and it turns them into noble magical foreigners. The name is also as cringeworthy as saying "moccasin shoes" or "katana sword".
eh... I've seen the Malkavian clanbook. It goes "Malkavians totally aren't silly" while requiring you to hold the pages up to the mirror to read them and turning them upside down.
>pdfanon posting his shitty homebrew
Dude, the Kuei-Jin reek of orientalism, weebishness, Asian stereotypes lifted from anime and John Woo films. Oh, and they're fucking Mary Sues.
Ah, Kindred of the East, positive discrimination at its finest!
Order of Hermes
>It's a cartoonish and hollow portrayal of Hermetic beliefs, and it turns them into hidebound magical bookworms
Get of Fenris
>It's a cartoonish and hollow portrayal of volkish beliefs, and it turns them into evil magical nazis
>It's a cartoonish and hollow portrayal of rich people beliefs, and it turns them into bloodsucking magical parasites
Why does a shallow portrayal of something turn into racism when you aren't the same color as the people being depicted?
>You don't need to be part of the Malkavian/Brujah/Tzimisce/Tremere clan to play that kind of character. You can do it in any clan.
I wanted to stay out of it but this complaint annoys me a great deal.
Nobody says you have to fit the clan stereotype in oWoD. There were examples of Gangrel hackers and Brujah professors, nobody says you can't play a different character, I would say this is even somewhat encouraged.
And now I go back to reading all of this
while liking both nWoD and oWoD
I like both oWoD and nWoD but for different reasons.
In my opinion, Requiem and Masquerade are equally tied.
Apocalypse is better than Forsaken in my opinion (Spirit Cops? No thanks.)
Ascension is slightly better than Awakening (But Awakening is still good)
Vigil is better than Reckoning
Lost is a million times better than Dreaming
Descent is much better than Fallen, and I haven't even played Descent (it's just Fallen was that bad)
Don't know anything about either version of Mummy, so I can't comment.
Geist, while one of the weaker gamelines in nWoD, I find it to be much better than the unplayable emo tryhard mess that is Wraith.
If we count fan games, then Senshi (oWoD) is better than Princess (nWoD)
Genius (nWoD) is better than Tech Infantry (oWoD)
And it all balances out.
>Really? I read their book and I got the impression that they're fucking horrible
Many people see fanatics in general as horrible people. However, in the end, they will go back to their homes for their families/animals/whatever and be avarage people they are.
I cannot say many things about fanatism, since I never had such experience in my life, but one of my close friends was a religous fanatic and I can have a notion about it.
You can't read a book only to see how evil they are: There's a balance in each one of us and you need to see the other side of that person.
>unplayable emo tryhard mess that is Wraith
But that is not true at all, Vampire is far more emo tryhard mess (or at least if you are not playing straight Vampions) than Wraith, a setting were hope is actually stronger than usual in WoD.
You better check your privilege at the door, buddy. You wouldn't understand what us asians have to go through every day.
Also I'm not asian.
You gotta take clan weaknesses into account as well, Pandora. Yeah, you can make whatever you want, but sometimes their weaknesses make it difficult.
For instance, you want mild-mannered Brujah? Good luck keeping those Frenzies in check. You want a civilized Gangrel who lives in a large mansion and spends much of his time with kine? Good luck hiding those permanent animal features.
You want a Malkavian who isn't crazy? Sorry, that's impossible.
You want a Nosferatu who is a socialite? Better consistently roll good with Obfuscate 3...
>You want a Malkavian who isn't crazy? Sorry, that's impossible.
>implying that we aren't the crazy ones and the crazy are the sanes one
You should feel bad about yourself, my boy.
>You want a Malkavian who isn't crazy? Sorry, that's impossible.
>You want a Nosferatu who is a socialite? Better consistently roll good with Obfuscate 3...
Well, that's the whole point of them in the first place. You don't play a Malkavian or a Nosferatu if you don't like their shtick. Also, you have a good leeway in both cases, as for example madness is pretty subjective.
Yeah, except the GMC says nothing about gaining greater persistent conditions. Most characters will get 'shaken, spooked, guilty'. Even at 1 integrity, your roll only gets -2 dice. Unless I missed something, nothing says to give /get persistent conditions more at certain integrity levels.
and how can combat be deadly if no one has a dicepool to hit? Watching someone swing with a chance dice or draining willpower to just get a few dice, not exactly what I call 'deadly'.
>I don't understand it either. I'm honestly surprised they released V20 with an updated version of the old rules instead of tooling nWoD mechanics to the old fluff.
Diehard oWoD fans like the oWoD rules.
Impossible to prove that because it's the only absolute truth in the thread.
>>picking one side even knowing there's two versions of same story
Yes, they pick the side that doesn't involve killing all of mankind.
>Yeah, sure. Just because they "protect" mortals doesn't really mean they are good.
Are you saying that their protection of mankind is bad?
Gothic Superstar, that is what you are
Coming from behind, tryhard to the nines
Sail away with me, to another club
We can wangst with each other, uh-huh
From one goth faggot to another, uh-huh
I know rite? Jesus. Here, as a person who used to love OWoD, and still does, yet is getting into NWoD, I can say, with complete and utter fucking honesty, that:
1) Both games are actually quite good.
2) Only, like, two OWoD books were racist (ugggh, Gypsy), the rest the writers realized were boarding too much on racism so they updated and fleshed them out.
3) Both mechanics are really damn good, and people who think that in OWoD that the more dice you had the bigger the chance of you screwing up didn't read the rules too well (don't worry, I fucked up really bad with this too)
4) OWoD had a really bad problem with being a little too metaplot driven at times (L5R had this problem too), and had a really bad problem when it came to cross-pollinating games. (Reminds me of Sam Haight. Please don't lynch me) NWoD doesn't suffer from this, which is nice.
5) OWoD had groups of varying shades of morality, be they Camarilla and Sabbat, Garou and Pentex (though this argument is weak I feel) or Mages and Technocracy. And this is what made the setting rich. (Example, Camarilla is seen as "Good guys", but they fuck each other constantly and ignore the signs of Gehenna. Sabbat are "Bad guys" but they realized that the Final Nights are coming, so they train for the big fucking fight with all the fanaticism of holy warriors, which many of them are, and await Caine's arrival. Almost as if they wish to save the world by giving up the bullshit notion that they're human. Silding scale of morality)
6) NWoD more 'toolboxy' is very 'user friendly' to new players and STs, who don't have to feel compelled or intimidated by the sheer, epic fucking scope of OWoD.
Saying OWoD is stupid, either mechanics or setting, just just...well, stupid, and quite possibly the product of someone who didn't completely understand the rules or the setting, someone who got bogged down by the ridiculously expansive metaplot or someone who didn't dig the cross-pollination problems of the rules.
>Well gee, there's sure weren't this many Wounds around until humanity showed up
The First Wound was caused when the Uratha killed Father Wolf, it's also implied to be the birthplace of the Maeljin.
>and how can combat be deadly if no one has a dicepool to hit? Watching someone swing with a chance dice or draining willpower to just get a few dice, not exactly what I call 'deadly'.
People aren't going to have unreasonably high defenses AND unreasonably high attack and still be able to do other things.
Even then, Attack will always be slightly higher than Defense with two evenly matched characters. You'll really only come into problems with supernatural powers or ephemeral beings. And once you DO get a hit in, you're going to be either Beaten Down or severely injured.
It certainly created the Gauntlet.
The game portrays the murder of Father Wolf as a Bad Thing that the Uratha are trying to repent over.
>3) Both mechanics are really damn good, and people who think that in OWoD that the more dice you had the bigger the chance of you screwing up didn't read the rules too well (don't worry, I fucked up really bad with this too)
The people who make the game have even acknowledged this fact, though. There's a link with a graph up the thread.
>Saying OWoD is stupid, either mechanics or setting, just just...well, stupid, and quite possibly the product of someone who didn't completely understand the rules or the setting, someone who got bogged down by the ridiculously expansive metaplot or someone who didn't dig the cross-pollination problems of the rules.
All those things you just mentioned right here in the section I quoted are WHY people say that it's stupid.
>The people who make the game have even acknowledged this fact, though. There's a link with a graph up the thread.
they fixed it with revised (or one fo the other editions) though, it's not as if the dice thing is a big problem
>Either beaten down or severely injured
Have you had success using that tilt, beaten-down that is. It seems pretty annoying to players to require willpower anytime they want to attack in combat just because they took lethal damage.
>The people who make the game have even acknowledged this fact, though. There's a link with a graph up the thread.
I'll have to take a peek, as I read the rules and never understood the problem.
(Basically, as I understood it, it was "You have dicepool. It can be big or small. 1s take away successes. Roll no successes but have at least one 1 and you've done fucked up, son.)
That might've been the way they described it in Orpheus rather than Vampire, however. I seemed to recall with that particular book they were tweaking small things here and there. (like the optional rule to take out the 'dodge' talent and just use athletics, for example.). It's been YEARS since I've cracked those tomes open.
Begone, Masquerade babbys and Outlaws!
Begone I say!
>That's the problem with Revised Edition, it fixed the mechanics of oWoD and then proceeded to ruin the setting with the metaplot.
Metaplot is optional and you were never forced to follow it. It was like following a story. Not that it matters at all now.
How is the video racist?
Detroit is a shitty place, High crime rate, massive poverty, the city is literally dying and becoming a ghost town, and recently the city government declared bankruptcy.
Has nothing to do with race, buddy. It all has to do with economics.
hell yeah, my man
Sure, I agree that some of the weaknesses are piss-poor (you could say that Toreador have no weakness), but I wasn't talking about weaknesses, I just said how you can play whatever character you want regardless of clan and it would make the game miles more interesting.
Yes it will be more difficult for Brujah, but still somewhat fixable, just get self-control 5.
For the Gangrel, you have to frenzy A LOT for there to be a permanent animal feature.
And to be honest, nobody would pick a Malkavian without the crazy, since that's their whole shtick.
Nobody said you couldn't reroll Obfuscate if it didn't work, just stand in front of a mirror and try.
Not really. I don't consider it something for PCs, or at least not tough ones. If I used it, I'd only have it apply to people with 4 or less Willpower.
Uh... what >>34728231 said. A racist reference is still racist.
Also, holy shit, does the river really catch fire?
This, oh so this.
Detroit's shitty state of existence has little to nothing to do with race or muh white privilege or any of that hipster bullshit.
It's all about economics, the collapse of the American Auto Industry, and the fact that America is a corporatist shithole.
Who needs Pentex when we have the top 0.1% of America's population?
Plus it seems like it would take a dump on anyone who wants to use willpower to actually fight. Either A) that counts as their willpower that turn so screw them
or B) it doesn't, but they are burning willpower twice as fast. Which could be lame for anyone that isn't a Hunter.
>Detroit's shitty state of existence has little to nothing to do with race or muh white privilege or any of that hipster bullshit.
SJW don't know what to do about the 1%, so it's easier just to call everyone else racist or sexist.
Vile hatred of anyone who disagrees with me? Sorry, that sounds like you, shithead.
And who says I'm a Republican? I hate those Bible-reading corporatist cocksuckers. I'm a socialist at heart.
Detroit sucks not because of race, but because it was fucked over by corporatism.
I can't comment on Requiem, since I never had the chance to try it out, but in what way is it easier? Nobody forbids you from playing a hobo Ventrue - a good ST will find an opportunity to make an interesting story out of this and a good player will recognize the kind of interesting obstacles he will face with other Ventrue. To me, the most interesting characters are the ones who went against the stereotype (which, admittedly is a stereotype in itself but you know what I mean)
VtM kinda turns you into a stereotype.
If a Toreador just snacks on some random loser, he's suddenly going to be obsessed with beauty, somewhere or another.
If anyone is bitten by a Malkavian, they become insane.
If anyone is bitten by a nosferatu, they become horribly ugly.
And so forth.
In nWoD you avoid that, you aren't changed by your blood so much.
>oWoD vs nWoD discussion (90% emphasis on Vampire)
>The Inevitable Return of the Great White Outlaw
>Arguments pertaining to Detroit and Racism
What he said.
Just because I'm white, doesn't mean I'm privileged, I grew up in rural poverty and was lucky to escape it as a teenager.
I'm not a Republican (or a Democrat, as they both have the same corporate sponsors), I'm actually quite liberal, but in the effective, sensible way, not the "liberal" way that punk rock Social Justice hipster morons are.
I'm a socialist and I am Anti-Christian and Anti-Corporatist.
Besides, let's get back to discussing World of Darkness, not arguing over race, economics, and politics.
I'm remembering why I stopped coming to WoD general.
It takes 25 posts or more to get a question answered, or to have discussion about the game itself. Just people arguing over nWoD vs oWoD or arguing about the details of some specific group's history (usually an oWoD group. Because they have enough canon history to make an argument make sense)
>It takes 25 posts or more to get a question answered,
And for every 100 posts there's like two actually relevant to the game, and often one of those can be answered by going to the website and seeing the publishing schedule.
>In nWoD you avoid that, you aren't changed by your blood so much.
If that's what you mean, then you would be right, the blood in VtM is extremely important and yes, it changes you. Doesn't immediately mean you will, as you put it, get obsessed with beauty. Unless you mean that mechanically. It can have small effects on your pc, like he can start noticing the beauty in some of the things, but doesn't mean he'll immediately start buying the paintings or something like that. But yes, the blood will somewhat influence the character, I'll give you that.
We actually haven't had an argument "old versus new" that's been this retarded, you came at a bad time
Actually a lot of it had to do with White Flight >>34728303
Frankly it's a really complicated issue. I think the anon to begin with was being sarcastic, you people just react to everyone who says something as if they're insane "social justice warriors".
It's SUPPOSED to take a dump on anyone who wants to use Willpower to actually fight. The idea is that it takes the fight right out of you.
Also, you can always only spend one point of Willpower a turn unless you're a Hunter monster.
Actually they do. Why wouldn't they? Most people hate the 1%.
VtM forces you into a mold, VtR doesn't. There's not really much going against stereotype in nWoD because the stereotypes are broader strokes. There's King Rat, for instance, the hideous Ventrue sewer dweller with a horde of rats. Another character is a white trash trailer park lord. In Blood and Smoke, you've got fluff talking about Gangrel who see the board room as their jungle.
The Blood is important in nWoD too, but it's on a more familial level. A good example is the Nosferatu between the two editions. In oWoD, it's kind of flat. They're hideous and that's that. They have Appearance 0. Most of them look disturbing.
In nWoD1e, they lose 10-Again and 1s cancel success, and there doesn't have to be anything physically wrong with them. They're just creepy. In fact, there's at least one Nosferatu bloodline that's inhumanly beautiful.
In 2e, it's even better. Nosferatu embody FEAR. They're everything from that guy who's actually a gentle giant but scares everyone to pic related.
>I'll give you that.
I wasn't the guy arguing from before but I posted the difference, I didn't mean it in a bad way.
I think the big thing is in VtM, clan goes a long way to defining who you are, even though you don't have to fit the most obvious of stereotypes. In VtR, "vampire" does, clan can be secondary or tertiary, factoring in covenants.
>It's supposed to take a dump
Yeah, except if this is true, every fighter is perfectly fine until they are hit once, and then the fight is taken out of them completely. That is absolutely lame.
It says it's not for being used with every character.
But... they do...
Admittedly most people's ideas are bad, or short sighted, but almost everyone has an opinion of what to do about them, so your statement doesn't make sense. Also, it's silly and has nothing to do with this thread, even less than the Detroit stuff.
Uh... like I said, I think that anon was making a joke. And saying it is or isn't racist is bundling a complex issue into a few words...
>We actually haven't had an argument "old versus new" that's been this retarded
Sorry, should have added "lately" at the end
Oh no, I didn't take it in a bad way. And I think I will agree with what you said, since it does seem to be the theme. I was just annoyed that people say that VtM forces the stereotypes and you can't play as any other character.
>I was just annoyed that people say that VtM forces the stereotypes and you can't play as any other character.
Considering the experience of many of the posters here you have to take posts like that with a grain of salt. I know it gets hard, because they just keep saying it and saying it.
It really doesn't work at all, it is an optional rule. You have the option of not using it completely. So saying 'but that's how it works' isn't really an explanation of reasoning, motivation to use the rule, or a description of its effectiveness as a rule.
Talk damnit. I know it isn't arguing about vampire, so it is hard to type more than two sentences, but jesus christ just try.
Why? The book explains perfectly the reasoning and motivation. Plus, Kill la Kill is getting crazier. I don't watch much anime, so the creators of Gurren Lagann get my attention.
>Optional Rule: Beaten Down & Surrender
As an optional rule, any character that takes more than his Stamina in bashing damage or any amount of lethal damage has had the fight knocked out of him. He has the Beaten Down Tilt (see p. 206; a Tilt, remember, is just a Condition that primarily affects combat). He must spend a point of Willpower every time he wants to take a violent action until the end of the fight. He can still apply Defense against incoming attacks, can Dodge, and can run like hell, but it takes a point of Willpower to swing or shoot back.
>On the other hand, he can give in. Give the lunatic with the butcher’s knife what she wants, whether that’s a bus ticket, an apology, a bag of crack, or a promise to stay out of the New Town after midnight. If you give in, you gain a point of Willpower and take a Beat, but you take no more part in the fight. If the other side wants to attack you, they’ve got to spend a point of Willpower to do so and probably suffer a breaking point. If some gangbangers want your truck and your two buddies have surrendered for that sweet combinanion of Willpower and not getting hurt, that does mean that they’re all coming for you. You could fight them off, but it’s three against one. Or you could do the sensible thing and remember that you get a lot of trucks in this life but only one pine box. Once everyone on one side has surrendered, the fight’s over.
>These rules only apply to humans and human-like creatures — anything that would incur a breaking point for committing (or attempting) “murder.” Creatures that don’t have a problem killing people in general can ignore surrender without penalty and don’t have the fight beaten out of them like normal folks.
That isn't reasoning and motivation, that is just an explanation of the actual rule. I know how the darn rule works.
The conversation is about if it is effective, useful, pros and cons.
Plus you should have watched Kill La Kill months ago. Where were you when anime was being saved?
I was busy not watching anime because I prefer dubs.
Also, pretty much NOTHING in the GMC update is given much explanation. Hopefully the proper 2e core will fix that. As for Beaten Down, the idea is that sometimes it's just not worth it to keep fighting. If your intent isn't important enough, you don't keep fighting after you've been damaged heavily.
Beaten Down and Surrender is all about being used for Down and Dirty Combat. Or, more accurately, when combat ISN'T down and dirty.
>If one party’s intent is violence for its own sake, their intended victims don’t acquire the Beaten Down Tilt no matter how much damage they take, and (obviously) gain no benefit from surrendering. When someone actually wants to kill you, the only thing you can do is to stop her by any means necessary, whether that’s running or shooting back.
So, basically I had an idea for a VTR game, either using 1e Requiem (as I currently don't have Blood & Smoke, though I do intend to get it eventually) or Requiem converted to Big Eyes Small Mouth (as I like the system in that game).
Basically it's a lot like a cross between Goodfellas and anime, and involves classic old-school mobster versions of the covenants. Personal horror will take a backseat to dark politics and action, though.
Strix don't exist in this setting, and the five covenants correspond to different criminal subcultures...
>Carthians: Chinese Triads
>Circle of the Crone: Russian Mafiya (Hotel Moscow meets Norse Paganism)
>Invictus: Italian Mafia
>Lancea Sanctum: Irish Mob (They're also the Big Bad Evil Guys of this campaign)
>Ordo Dracul: Japanese Yakuza
>Belial's Brood: American One-Percenter Bikers
>VII: Japanese Bosozoku Bikers