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Without even getting started on balance,...
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Without even getting started on balance, what other limitations or problems are there with 40K? What would you change, if you ran the zoo?
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>>34318370
Expected game size, especially if you want to pick up IG or Orks
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Cut the price down on some or most things. Reboot specialist games
Add more alternative playstyles like Killteam,
Make a release schedule that seems to have more coherency
Put Doomrider back in, with a new model
Update the fucking Eldar Jetbike model
Cooler Codex supplements, like Tau auxillaries, Eldar Corsairs, Lost and the Damned, books that actually add new units instead of just new equipment and stuff.
Plastic Warhound titan?
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Awhile back an anon was working on some way of changing 40k with this as the logo every time, anybody have a link to it? Might help, pretty sure he was condensing the game, could be wrong.
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>>34318493
As an Ork player, this is a real problem. Moving my boyz around takes so long at 2k matches, and my army is really only half painted because god damn. I almost don't want to play larger games because they take so long.

>>34318668
>Put Doomrider back in, with a new model
Fucking this

I also feel like many models are very ho-hum. Cost sinks could be spiced up with something unique, but I'm sure that would only hurt balance more.
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>>34318370
>multi part plastic kits
that shit is awesome if done well, do more

I would also try to create more infantry units, new types of infantry units, think of the characterization of legions' specialist units of the Horus heresy range applied to all the armies

and selling bits apart too could be nice
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>>34318370
Alternate activation. Get rid of alpha strikes and epically long stretches of doing nothing.
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>>34318668
>Reboot specialist games
This.
Revive BFG and Epic, focus the 28mm range into smaller skirmishes (kill team - mordheim - necromunda style, for starters), leave the big stuff for the smaller scale.
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>>34319753
>bfg rebooted
>everything is finecast
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>>34319783
better than the current
>everything is conversions

but it won't happen, there's not enough market for spaceships. kids these days...
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>>34318370

I'd scrap flyers (they belong in epic, not in regular 40k) and make several changes to the core rules:

> to hit modifiers
> movement stat
> suppression mechanics (ie. sheer weight of fire can pin units down)
> alternating phases like in the LOTR game GW did

These changes would also mean that the scale of 40k would go down a bit.
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>>34319900
>an actual pinning option, one that works
it would be great, but half the armies would be immune.
fanatics, drugged up, indoctrinated, hive-mind controlled... in the 40k universe, who actually stops when the suppressive fire comes up?
normal humies, but who else?
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>>34319954

It'll affect no one but IG.

Just like fear!
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>>34319954

Well, fearless units would be immune to it, stubborn units would have no negative modifiers while they take the test.

The way I see it working is that an unit takes a pinning test after the shooting phase has been concluded, it doesn't matter if the unit didn't take any casualties from the firing, they might still want to keep their heads down. They take a leadership test and modifiers are added and stacked based on several factors, like:

> the amount of shots fired
> for example 0-10 shots would have no negative modifiers, 11-20 would mean -1 to leadership, 21-30 -2 Ld and so on
> if template, blast or sniper weapons were used

In this way Orks and IG could force their enemies to cover due to the sheer weight of fire they can put out.
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>>34320126
maybe we could steal blast markers from Epic.
give every unit a treshold, more than so many bms and they go to ground, nobz, commissars and the like help removing them.
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>>34320194

I'm not familiar with Epic's rules, so I can't really comment on that. I've heard that they're pretty solid though.
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>>34319954
>it would be great, but half the armies would be immune.
>fanatics, drugged up, indoctrinated, hive-mind controlled... in the 40k universe, who actually stops when the suppressive fire comes up?
>normal humies, but who else?

It's not a matter of fear, but of pragmatism.
Why do people take cover when taking part in simulated combat? It's not fear of death, but rather a desire not to guaranteed get shot in the face because the incoming fire is too heavy.

Someone who doesn't care about getting shot obviously won't take cover, however all the fearless but rational combatants will keep their heads down if the situation calls for it. Voluntary "pinning".

This means that a pinned unit that's behind cover ought to receive a huge cover bonus because they're in hiding. Troops with high motivation should be able to unpin themselves if they want to risk getting shot to return fire.
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>>34320268
>This means that a pinned unit that's behind cover ought to receive a huge cover bonus because they're in hiding.
That's called Go To Ground
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>>34320268

The way I see it, an unit could choose one of these actions at the beginning of the movement phase:

>move
>run
>dig in/go to ground, which would make it more difficult to shoot at them
>a pinned unit can only move at half speed/can't move at all (haven't really made up my mind about that), get a negative modifier to their BS and cannot run
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>>34318370
Multiple saves, like fantasy. So stuff behind cover gets cover and armour saves (because only getting one is stupid) and stuff like terminators with a big save and an invulnerable save take both and thus get tougher to kill (as they should be).

Getting into balance, but some sort of mechanic whereby artillery can't indirectly fire unless a spotter of some sort has located the target. Hiding in the corner behind a big LoS blocking wall and bombarding away is stupid.
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It's a core mechanics issue that was exacerbated by additions.
It's very obvious that each editions and races added unit types until it became a full fucking bloat that it is now.

The rules need to be re written so higher stat = good always. AP and armor saves being the most obvious of that.
It needs to consolidate core model rules. Vehicles should be like any other models and be unique by adding modifiers to the core mechanic, not by having a whole different set of rules.
It needs to decide if it wants to be a you go I go system or not. Right now, it's a weird hybrid where the off players can have decision makings during the opponent's turn. Melee is primary offender where initiative and WS comparison makes it a way different combat experience compared to shooting or psychic powers.
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>>34320470
if we're taking the rules from FoW and using them as a base, yes it does.
and it wouldn't be a bad fit, since 40k takes a lot from wwII.
I'd still prefer seeing something with blast markers, instead of just a pinned - not pinned status, to give different units more or less resilience, to show the damage suffered in the previous turns (and giving units more or less 'morale healing'), and to take something from Epic, to give it a more 'brand' feel.
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>>34320575

Why not just to-hit modifiers?

> - 1 to hit if behind light cover
> - 2 to hit if behind medium cover
> - 3 to hit behind fortifications
> additional modifiers based on movement, elevation and the size of the target

Of course the flaw in that approach is that it would favor power armored factions way more than lightly armored factions.
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>>34320470
>That's called Go To Ground

A +1 is not a huge cover bonus, particularly when the terrain the unit is in ought to grant near immunity from small arms fire or whatever it is they're kissing dirt to avoid.

Basically they're forcing people to use Aegis Lines for the +2, now that area terrain is gone.

Increasing cover saves would make melee more necessary - since if you can't just wipe out the enemy with firepower you'll need to dig them out with grenades and blades. A better cover system and an effective suppression system would also make it possible to get into melee. The current pinning system is not that system.
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I'd get in touch with the people in forgeworld and put a dispatch center in the states so the customers wallets aren't getting gouged out with additional tax, shipping, and euro's to dollars conversion fees
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marks of chaos give lords the cult bonus's
always pisses me off, no fnp on nurgle, no furious on khrone its fuckin bullshit
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>>34318493
>>34318995
But game size is really one of the few things I like about 40k gameplay. Its not just a couple multi wound models, its like a actual battalion
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>>34320649
Yeah, or that. The cover save system doesn't make any sense in its current form.

I'll admit I do have a space marine army so may be biased, but I don't think power armoured factions getting a bit of help is a terrible thing in the current meta.
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>>34320658

Yeah, to-hit modifiers and pinning would mean that some units would have to be forced out of cover by either close-range firefights or assaults.
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>>34319753
>skirmishes
Please, No. The game market is currently over saturated with Skirmish games. Infinity, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Dust Tactics, X-Wing, Etc.

Warhammer does not need to be skirmish game.
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>>34320777
the minis are too big not to, it's just impratical.
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>>34320809
No its not. If it was, 40k wouldn't be as successful as it is now.
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>>34320854
40k is a bit like d&d, it's the gateway into wargaming, it's been since at least the 90s.
and changing wargame is a lot more expensive than switchign to an other rpg.

having its own storefronts made it big.
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>>34320777
Lower the body count for standard 40k while keeping relatively large army seems fine to me.

It would also make sense to have a skirmish game as a "specialist game". No new miniatures needed, just rules, that allow old players to do something different or to help new players to start playing sooner. So maybe an entry skirmish game to introduce players to 40k, that can be made more complex for veteran players, at a very limited cost.
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>>34320809
>the minis are too big not to

Not even close. If you find playing with loads of 28mm models awkward, play 1000-1500 point games or avoid horde armies. One of 40k's main selling points, IMO, is its scale - larger than a skirmish game, but not so large that you have to start reducing the size of each model.
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>>34321076
I should add that having a Skirmish-based 40k game as well would be fantastic - but the main game should remain around the same scale it is right now.
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>>34321094
I don't know, once you get Apoc sized, start throwing in titans and knights... it's awkward
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>>34321129
Yea, but Apocalypse games are a bit of an exception, and only really work with a lot of pre-game planning. That's the sort of scale that really is better covered by things like Epic.
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>>34318370
1) The scale of the game is too huge.


Seriously, that's it. GW's uncontrollable greed has pushed 40K to larger and larger games, when it's system is already stretching thin at the 1000pt game mark. 40K's rules are fine in the context of a skirmish, but GW is convinced that doesn't sell. Skirmish sells like hotcakes, that's the prime reason (there are others but come on) why Warhamhordes has had any luck at all on this market. But GW is desperate chasing a pipe dream of every 8-16 year in britain walking in to a brick and mortar for the first time in their sweet lives and buying an Apocaylpse army and the attached literature, and a bit of the Black Library while they're at it. It's insanity of the lowest and most depraved order.

So that's basically the fix then. Work on scaling 40K back to a skirmish based game. Now Games Workshop can have it's cake and eat it in this regard, if they'd do the obvious thing and come out with a new set of rules for huge-scale games. Make them almost literally a redux of Epic if they want to, with all the models in a unit having to be in base contact and whatever. That way, you'll actually be able to play a balanced, intuitive, varied and fun game in a reasonable span of time with that sort of model count.
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>>34319954
It's not necessarily about fear, or even about choosing to avoid getting hit. Getting hit in the face with shells, even if they don't get through your armour, should stop you running forward at full speed or lining up killer shots.
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>>34321227
Aside from certain existing mechanics that piss me off and the lack of other mechanics I feel are necessary to balance the game, this.
The scale is the biggest problem as far as the business of making money goes.

40k started as a skirmish game (omg individual doods and not a fucking plate for a formation!) and specifically had Epic for large scale combat.

>GW chases the nonsensical goal of A FUCKING TEENAGER purchasing an Apoc army plus books on their first ever visit to a GW store

That GW decision makers haven't been fucking fired for thinking this a realistic goal is the truly insane part.
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>>34320777
>The game market is currently over saturated with Skirmish games.
Oh, and your dumb ass doesn't think it's oversaturated with company games like Flames of War and 40k? Go back to bed, kiddo.
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>>34321406
Not to mention pinning is also supposed to represent artillery barrage, but apparently there are people mad enough to ignore physical shockwaves.
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>>34321629
it would be pretty cool if extra-heavy infantry, like terminators, was able to walk the barrage off - but not lighter inf.
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>>34318953
Are you talking about one-page-40k? The project was completed and they moved on to making a bunch more games, also they have been posting a whfb game on the general but its not on their site.

http://onepagerules.wordpress.com/
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>>34321493
>40k started as a skirmish game (omg individual doods and not a fucking plate for a formation!) and specifically had Epic for large scale combat.

40k started as a skirmish game in part because WFB was GW's primary miniatures line and the 40k line was comparatively tiny and they were not sure if it would take off. Once 40k was established, they released army lists immediately and the game lost its skirmish character within 1-2 years of release. And this was back when GW was creator driven and player driven. Players wanted to fight larger battles and GW obliged.

The only thing that didn't change was the rules still allowed for skirmish style gaming because they didn't drop those extra rules until 2nd edition rolled around. And during 2nd edition, GW released Necromunda to fill the void. They also released Confrontation before Necromunda, basically a super detailed RPG version of Necromunda.

It's a strange thing to lay the blame on the companies themselves when it's the natural tendency of wargamers to amass as big a collection as possible, limited only by one's budget. Historical wargames are proof of this - there's no conspiracy to cheat gamers out of their money there.
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>>34321629
>Not to mention pinning is also supposed to represent artillery barrage,

One of the worst decisions GW made in 7th was removing the Pinning effect from Barrage weapons. Since Go to Ground is almost useless against Barrage blasts because they bypass cover half the time, there's no voluntary pinning either.
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>>34321747
Problem is, this line of business doesn't hold up well in the long term. Ultimately people wargame because they wargame, and if the rules don't change to match the collections then people get disenfranchised. GW's attitude is a blase "fuck oldfags, there's always more 8 year olds and their clueless mothers", but then it gets itself stuck on depending on this reliable-yet-short-term-only market. They have no true solidary. They're fishing randomly from the river when they could be absolute farming, if they made a lasting product. And all it would take would be updating and tweaking the Epic rules, or coming up with something similar, to suit 40K.

I should also state that since my first post in this thread, I've been doing just that, and I'm pretty chuffed with the results. Anyone wanna see them?
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>>34318995
Buy regiment bases; GW has some offical ones for the LOTR games, but i doubt your opponent would mind you using them.
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>>34322103
Not that anon, buti want to quote another anon from last year:
"There are two tank companies battling it out on a football field while jet airplanes fly in narrow circles over their heads.

40k rules rae designed as smirkish.scale game and the minis are sold in similar quantities, but list design is based around a company scale game, and the fluff is based around army-scale battles. So there's definitely and identitiy crisis of scale going on."
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>>34321227
What about the people who like the current scale of 40k? A skirmish game also doesn't really work for most of 40ks current armys. How would the swarm armys or Armor armys be represented? Skirmish size works for games like infinity and warmachine because their armys use bipedal armor and none are very swarmy?
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>>34322747
if you're against 1 squad of marines, or just 1 leman russ and some supporting inf, having 2-3 squads worth is already a swarm.
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>>34321530
Name five on the market.
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>>34322772
But how do i play my armored division? How do I ply my 200+ man waaagh? Also, how would artillery units fit onto the game? Or flyers?
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>>34318370
Alternating squad activations. Having an entire side function before the other can take action is a relic which no other wargame in the market uses anymore.
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>>34322897
there's always Epic.
you're asking how to drive into Mordheim in your Steam Tank here...
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>>34322698

There's another mainstream game on the market that uses 15mm minis, where the players wind up filling the table with tanks parked track to track.

You could switch to 6mm, and find players with sufficient budgets to fill a table with 6mm tanks lined up track to track.

Players will play how they want to play. A lot of this skirmish game advocacy is basically motivated by the desire to reject 40k (or the way it's commonly played) and the perceived need to push games that have low entry costs.
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>>34322934
If you want for a skirmish game, don't play 40k.
I agree that a 40k skirmish game would be cool but it just isn't standard 40k.
You're trying to have necromunda into 40k.
Hell, I could even agree to lower the army size, but skirmish ? Not going to happen.
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>>34322914
>Having an entire side function before the other can take action is a relic which no other wargame in the market uses anymore.

Flames of War.
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>>34322914
>Alternating squad activations

God forbid 40k players have to fucking think about anything other than min-maxing their turbosperg unbound list.
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>>34323005
then put more than 1 man to a base.
if the focus is on the single squad, down to the man, then it's a skirmish game.
it's a basic tenet of strategy games: you go down 2 levels from the highest you want to play with, no need of more micro than that. it just gets messy otherwise.
if you want a full company, then deploy platoons and squads, not single troopers.
if you have single troopers, you've got a squad or platoon level game, no more.
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>>34322934
But i don't want epic. I want to move my tanks and watch as they obliterate any poor guardsman who gets in their way. I want to have a long unbreakable defense line of guardsmen buckling against s hormagaunt swarm. How can i see that in epic?
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>>34323107

Epic has all that.The rules are designed to portray shifting battle lines, blitzkrieg tank attacks, and all the other stuff you'd expect in a proper war game.

But even speaking as an Epic fanatic (I have thousands of epic infantry and dozens of titans), Epic is not a replacement for 40k.
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>>34323093
But how would you balance that in a game the size of 40k? Or even implement it besides a basic YGIG with units instead of sides?
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>>34323153
Yeah, but epic is looking at it from a telescope. I want to see it from a close up view. Epic is just too big for me
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>>34323185
alternating moves, some kind of overwatch rule, some kind of rule to reduce the left-over-move-after-enemy-moves-everything + move-again-in-the-new-turn issue... and then test to check if it's enough. it could already be enough.
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>>34323185
By squad, dood. You're not doing individual models, the entire squad does a full "turn" and then the other player does the same with a squad of his choice
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>>34323240
you won't make it far in the Inquisition with that mindset.
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>>34323185
Bolt Action does it randomly by squad.
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>>34323240
>I want to see it from a close up view. Epic is just too big for me


Yes, that's why I never quit 40k even though I preferred Epic.
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>>34323240
it's a different feel, but what about sneaking a squad of teleporting termies in CC with a Titan, and fucking it up behind his own shields?
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>>34323348
If you mean teleporting on it and butchering their way down, crushing heretics until they finally get to the titans contol room and pull the arch-heretek from his throne, and chucking him from the titan window before activating their meltabombs then teleporting out, then yes
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>>34320777
Skirmish doesn't mean it needs to be limited to 5 models you mong.

Back in the days on 2e where you could have fun with a rhino, a tac squad, some devs and a captain and bam sorted. Army.
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>>34323672
in Epic is a good bit more abstracted - port in, attack, get stomped a bit by the titan (and save), then topple the steel giant when the termies get up from under his feet.
Can you actually assault it like it was an enemy installation in 40k? I kinda want to play a space hulk kinda game, but in a Titan...
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>>34323775
Theoretically, yeah.

Get a few different boards for the battle to take place on, like a top gun line with cannons and shit then a middle indoor area filled with machinery and finally a rather large thrown room with the heretek in the middle. You could even have a small epic game on the side to show how much damage the imperator is doing before they stop it, and depending on how much damage is done shows who won
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>>34323876
this needs to go full space hulk, just a squad of termies, vs cultists swarming from bastions, summons, the daemon machine defending itself, and the head heretek going full prince at the end
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>>34323995
That would be freaking awesome.
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>>34318370
>MORE SWAG
>MORE ORANGUTANGS
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I would take flyers out of the game, or have them not stay on the board. You could pay for a flyer and have him fly over the board once (maybe once every x number of turns?)

Maybe having helicopter-like units that deploy your dudes precisely where you want them and then stay to provide fire support would be cool, but those should be easy to hit while your unit disembarks.

Take artillery out of the board, too, makes no sense having canons pointing almost vertically upwards shooting people a couple meters away. Instead get a spotter unit and let them put pie plates on top of whoever they can see.

Also i would like more focus on cover than armor, but i gues that doest make much sense in the fluff. (Directional cover woukd be even better, if difficult to implement)
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>>34324849
The flyer thing was briefly, sorta, kinda, in the game, back when orbital bombardments were things you could purchase that you placed and went off every turn (old demonhunters book). The problem is, fiscally, that doesn't sell models, and from a hobby perspective, you don't get a cool airplane to build, paint, etc.. From a balance perspective its hard for your opponent to counter it, unless you have another "off-screen" type of unit that deals with off-screen units and then that becomes a rabbit hole of off-screen counter units that detract from the physical game in front of the players.

The helicopter like units are really well portrayed by Valkyries I think. They have to hover to deploy non grav-chute guys and then you don't have to skyfire at it. Gibbing it also entails a chance that the newly disembarked guardsmen might eat a S 6 ap 4 large blast. They are costly though. It might be neat to see a smaller Valkyrie that can take 6 man squads and can start on the board. Armor 10, 2 hull points, Flyer, Hover, twin linked assault cannon, rocket pods, sort of an AH-6 analogy of sorts.

Artillery off the board makes sense, just like your airplane point, but suffers from the same problems.

I do think cover could be done better. Ages ago it was hit modifiers. Making it directional is a valid idea but is counter to GW's current attempts to simplify and streamline gameplay (though not army creation).
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>>34318370
Fixing the Scope of the game. They tried to jam all kinds of shit into it over the years and now it's like a weird shambling rules-golem that is a complete abomination if you look at it from a neutral pov.
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>>34318370
Break apart the Imperium.

God Emps didn't have a fantastic glorious expansion uniting all of humanity, he simply had the strongest and biggest faction.
There's no limit to the number of human civilizations, and the bulk were never part of the Imperium. Full lore freedom.

Space Marines are ONE faction. Space Marines were mostly Imperium, but non-Imperium civilizations copied the designs so you can have your Eldar Space Marines, Robot Space Marines, Female Space Marines, whatever the fuck you want. Chaos SMs remain their own faction.

The Imperial Guard are no longer part of the Imperium as a faction (although the current "Imperial Guard" are still one of the main example factions). Imperial Guard becomes a faction of mercenaries and planetary guard for all human forces; they're the catch-all for non-Space Marines.

Sisters of Battle get combined with the GK and Mechanus to be a unified "Imperial Cult" army.

The Four of Chaos are NOT the all-encompassing beings they are right now, there's a multitude of Chaos Gods all vying for power. Chaos Undivided could win the setting, but as it stands Tzeentch has a thousand-odd prophesy gods all fucking with his plans and the rest are busy with struggles of their own.

Eldar aren't auto-owned by Slaanesh. They have to actually give in to the hedonism, but it's VERY fucking hard. Grimdark and all that, but those who have a strong will get to shine as exceptional beings.

Tau are fine, Necrons are fine, Orks are fine, Tyranids are fine but need someone to give them buffing (and more swarm-style models, 40k Skaven in terms of army-size. Not required, but luzly as a gimmick. Something 'nids can use to troll other players, with fun fluff too). Throw Undead in it to tie in Fantasy. Just hints of space ghosts.

tl;dr more diversity, less grounded fluff with less rules to let players do what they want with home fluff. Imperium should be the posterboy faction, the one who gets the most lore, but not 50+% of the game.
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>>34332247
wow, thats actually kind of a good idea. i wouldnt have everyone is space marine, maybe there are lesser augments or juicers or something, but on the whole a pretty good idea.

also kae moda republic.
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>>34321741
That was the one, thank you.
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>>34320675

Traditional wargames are better designed and a hell of a lot cheaper for that style of game. If you're going to go with miniatures, I don't know why you wouldn't go the special snowflake route.
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Often there's just too much rolling
The psychic phase was a neat idea, but added a whole extra load of dice-tossing
Or the change to Ork's Mob Rule, with which I have less problem with the nerf and more with how much more it would slow the game
>Before 7th ed: You looked at your boyz, saw more than 10, said 'yep theyre still fearless'
>After 7th ed: You count over 25% casualties
>Roll leadership, maybe fail
>Roll on the table
>Maybe reroll on the table
>Roll how many hits
>Roll to wound
>Roll armour saves
>And I'm not even sure how you'd randomly allocate all the dead Orks in a mob of two dozen or whatever
And I would have lumped Run and Move in together so that horde players don't have to move a hundred models 6 inches each and then a piddly 2 more each after a poor roll
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Advance the lore
Make the release schedule less stupid
Do away with codex's that rely on USRs for their "special abilities"
Carry over the save system from Fantasy
more lasers
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>>34334661
>Advance the lore
this kills the IP
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>>34320649
You'd have to be really careful about what bonuses stacked or it'd be snapshot city
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>>34335648
Didn't kill Warhammer Fantasy.

Warham Fan was supposed to have an "End Times" and date where the story drops off into the apocalypse. Fans revolted, and as a result we had a single Orc shut down the entire storyline by WAAAGHing through the Chaos Undivided army and kicking the bringer of the end in the nuts.
Then everything went back to the way it was.

You need an idea that a big end is coming, but for fucks sakes it should NOT have an actual date.
>>
>>34336750
>Didn't kill Warhammer Fantasy.
>Then everything went back to the way it was.
Well you said it yourself they really didn't advance the plot.
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