Berniefags. What does he mean when he says that people should have a "right" to free health care? What other goods and services to people have a "right" to have?
I don't think any state or cities explicitly say that people have the right to have a police department. Policemen get a paycheck and they provide their services. Same with firefighters.
If Bernie has his way and says that everybody should have a "right" to free health care, what's stopping hospitals from saying "lol none of you get paid"? Or the state from saying "we have a shortage of doctors and nurses, but since everybody has a right to health care you guys absolutely must continue working and we don't have to pay you". Same deal with vacations, etc.
Shed some light on this, Bernie supporters.
Not leaning either way but technically firefighters and police officers are "free services" on the basis that you don't pay for them as you need them, you provide for them through taxes. I don't think it would be a bad thing to have "free" health care. Could you imagine your house burning down and then getting billed by the fire department for helping?
there's no consensus on what rights people "should" have. it boils down to a moral decision which each person has to make for himself.
presently, americans don't legally have a right to healthcare. i believe it's a moral imperative to make it a right, and that's one of the main reasons i'm a berniefag
I think we should aim to make health care a service available to everybody, but I think using the word "right" takes it too far. When you grant the "right" to everybody, the people who provide that service have their rights taken away.
I think the Bernie campaign should make it clear as to what it actually means to make health care a right. I'm not aware of people having the right to any other good or service. If I bump into a doctor at a restaurant, does my "right" mean that he has to perform a prostate exam on me right then and there? And what if he's a radiologist? I have the right to have his services, so he can't refuse, right?
Why do conservatards always take things to ridiculous extremes or try to use weird comparisons when they're trying to justify not having universal healthcare?
If you want to know how it works, look at every other country in the world who has it instead of trying to claim complete nonsense like hospitals will stop paying paying workers or somehow force them to work ridiculous hours.
Policemen are firefighters are other tax funded services, so fuck only knows what you point is in mentioning them. I suppose you creepy, selfish fucks wish they were user pays as well.
People should have the right to healthcare that is 'free" via taxation at the point of need.
The question is about the terminology. Why should it be a "right"? Nobody here is saying that health care shouldn't be universally provided. The key word is "right". No state's constitution says that people have the right to food and water. Why health care? And why doesn't that take away from the rights of a health care worker?
Why shouldn't people have the right to access the healthcare they require? It doesn't mean they can get anything they want at any time - it just means that when they are in need they can be assessed and treatment can be performed it required, or scheduled.
Without being hyperbolic - explain what rights are being taken from a heathcare worker.
People should have the right to clean water.
There's something incredibly fucked about the mindset of your country when you will shit your pants in rage for the "right" to own all the guns and shoot people, but hospitals where anyone can be treated is an affront to you.
It's rhetoric. What he means is that you shouldn't become bancrupted because you get cancer. Or that your health care should not depend on your work. Or that there shouldn't be millions of people without health care insurance at all.
Single Payer is just a more efficient way of covering everyone and lowering costs. Insurance companies act as middle men and drive up costs. A single payer system is by most estimates much cheaper.
I'm Canadian and Single Payer is just something I consider to be common sense.
Because they're funded by insurance companies and scare tactics are the only thing they can use.
Semantic debates are one of the most pointless discussions you should have.
welcome to utopia socialist
Semantics and labels are bullshit pointless debates that go nowhere.
1. Can we afford this? Yes. It costs less.
2. Should we do this? Yes. It covers everyone and lowers costs.
Are there any reasons why there should be no Single Payer healthcare in the USA?
It will never cease to amaze me that you can hand over the control of your healthcare to private enterprise and allow them this level of control over society and watch them make absolute fortunes off the misery of others, and then defend that system.
Kike behind this post to be honest
>Why would you want doctors to not get paid at all after years of having to pay a fucking gorillion dollars in case you break something and get into a car crash
The health care system is fucking AWFUL now. I would take the thing in the OP over going bankrupt because of something I possibly couldn't have stopped.
Countries have all those things available to the least fortunate do not prevent their able citizens from living the lives they want.
Why are you dliberately misrepresenting the situation?
Besides, yours is the country with the biggest prison system in the world. So much for your glorious free market utopia.
>the people who provide that service have their rights taken away.
Dude what? Education is already a right, does that mean teachers have no rights? That does not make sense.
>If I bump into a doctor at a restaurant, does my "right" mean that he has to perform a prostate exam on me right then and there?
No, just like any teacher I run into is not obligated to teach me calculus.
>I don't think any state or cities explicitly say that people have the right to have a police department.
actually most countries do say that police are absolutely obliged to help citizens. same for firefighters. there are generally statutes in cities that say that they have to take care of those sorts of securities, and when those fail, there are usually provincial or state-level police to pick up the slack
>what's stopping hospitals from saying "lol none of you get paid"?
several labor laws and the possibility of strikes
it's only america where this is not true
are just now realizing there is no such thing as rights? just priveleges the people with power give to peasants. the feds could decide that everyone has the "right" to a coco-cola ever thursday and if they had the power to enforce that, it'd be a right.
>"free healthcare means i should be able to get a prostate exam at Subway!"
>tfw the average american is this stupid
taxation is payment for things you are already using
>I think the Bernie campaign should make it clear as to what it actually means to make health care a right. I'm not aware of people having the right to any other good or service. If I bump into a teacher at a restaurant, does my "right" mean that he has to perform a lesson on me right then and there? And what if he's a professor? I have the right to have his services, so he can't refuse, right?
Education is a right. Replace this statement with teacher and it shows how silly it is.
All it means in practice is that the government will fund teachers, police, healthcare, etc so that they are able to meet customers needs. Nothing about forcing random professionals off the street to meet your needs now.
>the people who provide that service have their rights taken away
under single-payer, arguably. but that case couldn't be made with just the public option in place, and that's realistically as close as we're going to get to socialized medicine in the foreseeable future.
private hospitals and practitioners wouldn't be directly shut down, nor would private insurers. but they'd lose a good chunk of their customer base who currently have no alternative to buying into the private system.
socializing medicine would encourage actual competition, and despite what every ideological capitalist will tell you, competition is ultimately bad for their profit margins.
>explain what rights are being taken from a heathcare worker.
I don't know because nobody has explained what it means for health care to be a right. Again, I do believe that people should universally have access to free health care. I'm just on the fence about the terminology of it being a "right".
Let's define a "right" to be something that a person is legally entitled to. Whose legal responsibility is it to provide that right? The government, the hospital, the physicians, or all the other providers who work in a hospital/physician office?
>The government has a legal obligation to reimburse hospitals for providing health care service
Alright, I can live with that.
>The hospital has a legal obligation to treat a patient in need
This is already a legal right, so that's fine too.
>A physician has a legal obligation to treat a patient
This is what I'm unclear on. So let's expand this point a bit.
If someone is having a heart attack on a plane, then sure - the physician should do everything in his power to help that person. But let's play with this idea a little.
A doctor takes his kid out to the local playground, where there are other children. One parent walks up to the doctor and says, "Hey. My son has had a fever and a sore throat for a week straight. Will you look at him?".
Now, does the doctor now lose his right to refuse to look at the kid? That kid now has a "right" to health care. They live an hour away from the closest hospital. Is the doctor obligated to drive them?
>all the other providers
So let's repeat that scenario, but with a nurse. Is the nurse legally obligated to examine the kid?
People think this is a ridiculous argument, but I disagree. I think it's important to be absolutely clear on what laws are being proposed. Otherwise we end up with more shit like the Patriot Act, and people who want to take advantage of loopholes to fuck over someone else for personal gain.
>Most of the things I use are provided by private enterprise.
And do those come from some nearby universe that we have no interaction with?
Or do they benefit heavily from our system?
We have roads, police, legal systems, etc etc that every private industry uses. They make use of employees who were educated by our tax dollars.
Taxes are just them paying back. This is part of the social contract.
so what if it is? you could argue a person simply existing is theft. he lives under protection of government and its services. of course he has no choice in the matter, but it doesn't mean it's without consequence.
What a rebel you are.
Like it or not, all of us are part of a social contract between each other, and the governed and rulers.
We pay taxes. Everyone plays by the same rules. The state acts as an intermediary on disputes and spends the taxes.
We get the benefit of a nice society, and a lot of goodies.
The "taxation = theft" thinking ignores that we constantly get shit from those same taxes.
>Most of the things I use are provided by private enterprise.
also those private enterprises use the tax-funded things, and in fact, receive direct tax relief and government grants/loans to do things.
then move to somalia, nothing is stopping you from bouncing out
Education is a good point, but teachers are grossly underpaid. Plus I think the law usually says something like "kids legally have to attend school".
Most health care workers aren't unionized. Unions in general are dying really quickly in the US.
it means that bernie sanders thinks that he is fucking santa clause and all his supporters are 5 year olds who believe in santa clause instead of reality and therefore also think that their food originates at the store.
Legally, the police don't have to help you.
You don't have the right to be protected by the police, and they don't have to help you if you need them for anything else. What services from the police do you have the right to have?
Single Payer costs less and would save the USA trillions of dollars each year.
Current health care isn't free either. It's very expensive.
Cutting out the private insurance middle men would save a lot.
The mistake people make is to assume that Single Payer would be NEW spending, when it's just taking current spending and changing how it is spent.
Fair pay and working conditions comes from the scarcity of certain workers (nurses) and from the mountains of laws that hospitals have to follow. But yeah, some hospital workers are unionized but most aren't.
Rights are completely man made things
Somewhere at some time people decided "oh this is a good idea for a right" and it becomes law
What does it mean to have the 'right to bear arms'? It's not some universal law, like physics, it's completely made up. Only Americans can't understand this even when they're told it.
Anyway, doctors take a Hippocratic oath to help people who need help so that last shitty sentence is fucking useless. Doctors in the US ALREADY have an obligation to help those who would otherwise die
>Just moved out on my own
>Living paycheck to paycheck bringing home $1300/month
>If Trump wins I'll have some disposable income
>If Bernie wins I'll have to move back in with my Mom because of the tax burden
>Won't even be able to take advantage of dem programs because no offspring
Basically, his entire perspective comes down to the responsibilities of a government. The people of any nation give their support, power, and money to the government. In return, the government is expected to provide protection, leadership and other things of value to the wider community.
So when people discuss a right to health care, it's really saying people have a right to have their government provide for their well-being in this manner. Same with police, firefighters and, in most other advanced countries, medicine.
>what's to stop the hospitals
Because the rights he's talking about aren't enshrined - they're a part of a political ideology known as social democracy. Australia does it, for example.
Nobody will be treated that way, because there are laws to protect employees (less in the States, which might want to make you think about the power employers have too).
You outline a little more here, which I'm taking to mean boils down to a matter of semantics to you.
Plus I just want to point out, single payer system doesn't mean the state is necessarily running a lot of the medical stuff - just means that hospitals and private practices essentially opt into a bulk billing system. They get paid by the subsidised system.
>this is the average american
>"as long as i dont need medical services, food, shelter, protection, any type of security at all, it would be better to pay no taxes at all"
why do poor people constantly have the mentality that they're rich
The cost of living will not lower as taxes rise. Corporations will pass the tax burden on to the customers as well as firing employees and closing stores, and small businesses will follow suit to stay competitive.
A big name retailer you may have heard of just raised their employees baseline pay by 2% and closed over 100 stores across the nation to cover this expense, while cutting hours at existing stores. That's without seizing their profits for distribution to their customers who are in turn giving them back a fraction of their own money in exchange for more goods. This is what happens when you invest in programs like food stamps instead of freeing up those funds to be invested in payroll.
Why should I be held responsible for some fat shit/smoker/meth-head/reckless dumbass's health issues?
And why should I pay for some dickweed to drop out of college or get a master's in medieval literature?
>it's a "we should just give up and let the plutocrats rule the country" episode
No shit that's not the point I'm making you asstard. I'm saying why should I be forced to pay for people who are intentionally harming their health?
And on top of that, the government is so completely inept at handling money. It's bad enough I have to pay for SS and pay for niggers welfare so they can sit at home watching their flat screens smoking Newport and drinking 40's.
Maybe MAYBE if the government wasn't so fucking ridiculous with any of their fucking programs, I could get behind this idea.
You fucking bernie fags are all rainbow and butterflies tho.
I have no argument you're 100% correct. This is the issue with 'positive' rights. If I have a 'right' to a job, who gives it to me? What if I'm on a desert island? Do I have a 'right' to a job?
Fuck positive rights. Of course people want to make doctors their slaves because they're insecure cretins who feel entitled to their health without having to allocate resources to facilities and people that provide for it.
And this is the average European.
"I can't have roads or national defense unless I pay taxes for the following..."
>Elective surgeries and treatments regarding sex change, obesity, diseases linked to optional lifestyle choices, cosmetic augmentation, and hypochondria, all supported by the NHS
>The choice between massive fees or massive fines relating to accepting or opting out of medical insurance as mandated by current healthcare laws, despite a growing number of young people accepting healthier habits
>Nationally distributed food vouchers as you're implying in your argument since you mention food, like it couldn't have been purchased by untaxed income
>Shelter, as you've cited, that we're already paying for with our untaxed income- Income that would be denied to us and distributed to non-working families because they don't know how to keep their legs closed
Anything else labeuare~ does better than personal choice, Eurofag? Nobody said a word about cutting national defense but Bernie so that's just more bullshit you're making up so you can have an extra comma.
Good. I'm glad you're happy with your governments performance thus far. I can't wait till hospitals become homeless shelters over night.
Because the hospital can't not feed you while you're under there care.
>fake debilitating stomach pain
>Eat for a week while doctors try to figure out what's wrong with me
See you on the other side of the economic collapse.
its funny because i have tons of disposible income as a poor swedish student while many middle class americans live paycheck to paycheck.
Proptip: the taxes dont make you poor, rich people like Trump fucking your ass makes you poor
Are you retarded? We already have EMTALA. In an emergency doctors and hospitals are told to go fuck themselves and no matter what provide Healthcare regardless of ability to pay to stabilize the pt. America has dad universal health care forever. We just don't pay for boobjobs and other cosmetic shit like nhs.
I am a nurse and damn near got fired for asking about insurance. I'm used to working with chemical dependency where insurance is a thing. It's just a habit but hospitals take universal health care seriously here.
what do you mean by "intentional"?
you listed a few scary vices, but what if i define intent differently? for instance, let's say someone goes mountain climbing, falls, and gets seriously injured.
obviously, mountain climbing is a dangerous activity that has no reason to exist outside of the enjoyment of the person participating in it. much like smoking meth.
should that also not be covered by public healthcare? should it be limited to unavoidable or occupational hazards?
even if you think so, i will still disagree. as i said, it is a moral judgment that everyone has to make individually.
>being this retarded
where do you get this from? because its public health care that means is a free-for-all where parasites can reign free without consequences?
>actually being that retarded
western europe has had public health care since ww2 and there is no rampant problem with homeless people take up hospital beds
perhaps that is because western europe has very few homeless people and the few we do have we take care off
stay mad that you live in a 3rd world country, americuck
used to volunteer in a hospital for two years. this happens, though it doesnt take long for the staff to realize they are faking especially when, you know, it happens all the time and they are well aware of it.
the thing is, if you go into a hospital with a bag of dirty possessions (like the homeless people that came into our hospital tended to have) they would throw it all away. that is, spare foods, clothing, etc. it all goes in the garbage.
they'll stay there a full 24 hours tops, then leave with even less than they had before. they tend to avoid hospitals because of this. anything close to causing an economic collapse is ridiculous.
this is the result of an american trying to argue on the internet. he's so stupid he thinks everyone else is aswell
perhaps a resuslt of the piss poor public education? and the fact that there is no free college?
Well good for europe. Good thing they have America to police the word and cover their asses after any natural disaster. Oh and also droning Yemen kids.
Again, if the American government could pull it's head out of its ass and cut the rest of the world off from any sort of aid, we could already have this implemented without any need to raise taxes
That's focusing on 1% of cases and ignoring 99% of them. It's a distraction. Not an honest argument.
We SHOULD try to reduce the amount of people who self-harm, but that is a separate issue.
It's sort of saying that we're at a point in human civilization where we should be helping one another, and we should be past the whole animalistic every man for himself sentiment. But we aren't.
hes just an ignorant asshole
Watch any republican debate or speech and you will see how easy it is to pander to their crowd. if you can pull together religion, anti-immigration, gun rights, terrorism, and racism into a speech all the while acting like an entertainer, you've won their vote.
See: about 1/3 of the republican vote going for Trump
so do many safer activities. you could go to the gym and get the same gainz without risking life and limb.
why should i be more obligated to pay for that unnecessary bad habit than any other unnecessary bad habit?
If they don't pay taxes they can put money into businesses. That's what rich people do with their money, invest, which means job creation. There's this little thing called inflation. You won't be rich long if you sit your money under a mattress or in a bank vault.
>Why shouldn't people have the right to access the healthcare they require? It doesn't mean they can get anything they want at any time - it just means that when they are in need they can be assessed and treatment can be performed it required, or scheduled.
You're just moving the problem. "Not anything they want any time, but everything they want at some time"
In case you haven't noticed, plutocrat rule is working out quite well in conjunction with new banking regulations.
The average American home- No, nearly every American home enjoys the luxuries of infrastructural connection, refrigeration, air conditioning, heating, television, internet, phone service, automobile ownership, furnishing, lighting, a wide array of consumables, hot water, waste management, and hygiene products. All of this we can afford with our income. We already have access to the public services a functional nation deems necessary to funnel taxes into.
Americans live in a utopia they've become blind to because socialists have introduced the idea that they could have all of this without contributing to society. They've distorted the image of free will as a responsible force to govern commercial trends. They've obfuscated the moral implications of success by insisting it can't be meritorious and decrying its presence as exploitative. They've unwoven the fabric of the American family by contradicting their message and suggesting child support, food stamps, welfare, and alimony are an adequate substitute for a father in a young American's life.
The European Union is unraveling and you haughty braggarts are too drunk on your own morally relativistic self-deprication that you can't see your bloated, overtaxed labor markets collapsing. Germany's banking scare this afternoon comes as no surprise. This will keep happening and you'll keep eating up Merkel's bread and circus act while your entire continent sinks under the weight of a generation of Europeans and immigrants who think the world revolves around their leisure.
It's just rhetoric. The language of universal rights has had emotional sway in the hearts of Westerners for quite some time. In actuality, you either have it or you don't. Those who favour something will utilize "rights" as a rhetorical tool. This is especially acute in the US where the rigid two party system encourages a good vs evil mentality.
I'm in favour of some kind of national healthcare system, but I do get the other side of it as well. Mandatory opt-in universal care is essentially forcing healthier people to subsidize everyone else; you can't really escape that fact.
It's disingenuous to counter by saying that everyone gets old eventually (eg, >>26352416). Old people who have taken care of their health simply won't cost the system as much as old people who haven't.
nah, they put it in funds so it grows indefinitely. If you put taxes on them they are forced to create jobs.
If you make a couple of hundred millions every year i think your satisfied with putting what you dont spend in a bank
>i have a right to own an automatic rifle
>you dont have the right to be treated for illness
>WHAT?! YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY OPINIONS?!?!
>Cutting out the private insurance middle men would save a lot.
Yeah like student loans amirite? Oh wait...
Yeah like retirement savings with social security amirite? Oh wait...
Yeah like education, we totally don't spend the most per kid as a country and still get top results, amirite? Oh wait...
It's not like the government didn't set up the current broken system we have now with the "your company must give you health insurance" because everyone has the same job until they die, amitrite? Oh wait...
Democrats are similar in that respect: abortion, gun control, diversity, affirmative action.
Wealth inequalities are there too, but it's been somewhat overshadowed compared to the past because social issues have eclipsed it in importance.
Go look up voting records on are wars. You might be astonished how pro war democrats are. (Not that I'm implying democrats are liberals).
Even the current democratic president bombs Pakistan non stop.
what are you on about? the gym isn't dangerous. the worst you can reasonably expect is a hernia. how many people have broken bones and ended up in traction from lifting?
i don't know why you think i'm not american but i am and everything you just said is mad retarded
Yeah because when you distort markets things get magically more productive. Not like money solves the pricing problem or anything, better just scoop it up in a big bucket and spend it with the finesse of a fire hose.
>implying doctors/nurses/EMTs don't get paid in countries with socialized medicine
people in this country have a right to a fair and speedy trial, does that mean judges, lawyers, etc don't get paid? can't believe anyone falls for this shit still
>White male straight Christian Americans will literally be paying tuition for college students to take classes where they are taught to hate anyone who's white, male, straight, Christian, or American
The Pepe in me can't help but laugh
>what's stopping hospitals from saying "lol none of you get paid"? Or the state from saying "we have a shortage of doctors and nurses, but since everybody has a right to health care you guys absolutely must continue working and we don't have to pay you"
A huge number of laws, I mean, this is a really stupid question, he's framing healthcare as being massively funded like a huge number of other services, in effect you might as well ask what stops them from just not paying the police.
The answer is a bunch of shit, labor laws, taking employers to court, etc.
His proposal is only to have a different kind of insurance provider, your question doesn't even make any sense
Mutual funds are just all businesses in a single 'stock'. It's still investing. If they invest less money less jobs are created. You did a good job of highlighting how retarded Bernie supporters are though. It's probably the only thing you're good at.
You've actually made a very good point. I do have a right to weapons.
People do not have a a right to healthcare.
So if you're saying my rights have to be payed for by taxes, then all my guns and ammo should be paid for by taxes!
In Soviet Union, health care frees YOU!
Greeks were saying that a few years ago, too.
Fuck off you neets I don't want to pay for your fucking hospital trips!
>every other country with universal healthcare is NHS in the UK.
There's really no point taking you seriously when you think the rest of the world is run under the British system.
Ironic, considering your kind will argue that our choice to make healthcare a right isn't viable, and yet it is a reality all over the world.
>"Not anything they want any time, but everything they want at some time"
I didn't say that at all. Perhaps you lack the intelligence to comprehend that assessing the situation means working out what actually needs doing and proceeding accordingly.
Maybe you should just grow the fuck up as a nation and start actually challenging all the complete bullshit you are sold by people with a vested interest in taking as much of your money as possible.
so you really think a person who makes billions feel the need to invest all this money if they have no pressure from taxes to do so?
Dont get upset now.
I'm a roid monkey and consider the gym dangerous as fuck. In my first two years I fucked up my back twice and got a stress fracture in my foot from the track. If you aren't retarded it's safe but I knew what to do and still fucked up. Most guys I see in the gym aren't fucked only because they're afraid of breaking a nail or sweat.
It's because I pay very little for amazing coverage and you fags want to fuck that all up for me.
ok lol so maybe you tried to deadlift your body weight on week two and threw your back out
my original point is that life is inherently dangerous, shit happens, and healthcare should be available to everyone
This question is so fucking retarded. You have a right to healthcare in the sense that the government will be your health insurance. As in, you won't be blocked from medical services because you can't fork over huge amounts of money. It's really obvious and simple, and entirely possible and beneficial to anyone making under twenty million dollars yearly
You already do smartass. Who do you think pays for billy bob taking his kid to the ER when he's bleeding out from a dirt bike accident uninsured? Your taxes, and more are needed with this system in place.
The only way Bernie is going to very significantly change your finances is by saving you from paying outrageous prescription drug and health insurance prices, which you are getting FUCKED on RIGHT NOW
I've talked with a bunch of doctors and they've already told me America is fucked and that medicine isn't worth it anymore. Most are telling me to go into nursing and go for advanced practice nursing if I want a prescription pad so badly. Ever since Obama ruined the Healthcare system physicians were screwed. Even if me repeal it it's fucked. I love Trump and would totally suck his dick, to homo, but notice how he says repeal and replace Obamacare. It's still shit even if it's called Trumpcare. Fuck trying anymore. I'm in nursing school now and would like to be an anesthetitist, but if not fuck it, geri/acute care is 90k/yr. Medicine is dead in America. I guess the earth belongs to stupid rice dick chinks now.
>I have a right to own weapons.
>Other people don't have a right to healthcare.
Please use one of those weapons to fucking kill yourself. Your guns aren't paid for by taxes because you get them from privately owned businesses. Public healthcare is government owned so it is funded through taxes.
Look at the UK. Nurses practically work for free. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a nurse there or anywhere in EU. Converting good boy points to real money they only make half as much as burger nurses.
They only need to invest if they want to be rich. Think about it. Would you rather make -2%/yr or 8%/yr? I'm not even rich and I'd rather 8% than losing money, rich people feel the same, they invest. You don't even have a leg to stand on. Rich people invest, less taxes means more investing.
Because the average person pays taxes and they should get something out of it.
I'm going to vegas. Have to get health insurance because getting stitches would cost me 5K, lol.
Who wants to live like that? if you get really sick, that would be terrifying. Especially if you have a family to support.
If you have everything you need + make millions of dollars every year you probably wont bother investing solely for the sake of becoming much richer