Enough with the feels... lets talk about something else. Do

>>25591419
>What's better, mouse or tablet?
pencil

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>>25591419
hiblox

I do
Actually, /r9k/'s got a couple of artists
Don't have my computer right now so I can't show you any but ah, anyway tablet always beats mouse

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I've always been shitty at drawing and painting due to two mini-Stacies mocking the way I painted back at the first grade. But I'd like to pick up the habit now. How do I start, artbots? I'd like to use pencil in the beggining, if possible.

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> Have absolutely no aspiration or motivation.
> See countless "How to draw manga girls" videos (Inb4: faggot lol)
> I read a lot of manga and I'm a sucker for art, so I thought that I'd try it out
> Complete and utter failure, looks like fucking shit.
> Read, that you can't get better at drawing and that it's all talent. Either you're born with it or not.
> Mfw I got no talents.

>>25591601
>> Read, that you can't get better at drawing and that it's all talent. Either you're born with it or not.

Really shitty bait.

I mean, that's true. Talent is undeniable. But your shitty bait will work and you'll attract the 'practice is everything' retards.

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>draw all the time
>I'd wager to say 12 hours a week
>still shit

At least it helps me cope with feelings of intense rage and sadness

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is it cute?

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>>25591518
>>25591518
you don't suck because two little girls made fun of you you suck because you don't fucking practice

>>25591778
Look, a practice is everything retard.

>>25591419
I'll tell you what's better: My erect penis all the way up into your stinky anus.

>>25591601
Just draw your animu girls, senpai, and talent doesn't mean shit it's about mileage and if you don't draw you ain't getting no mileage.

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>>25591601
Take your first drawing and compare it with one after one month or more or less regular drawing. It'll be an improvement I promise it. Of course there will always be a 6 year old asian, that's better than you will ever be. But that's just the way it is.

>>25591799
>>25591778
Also:

>inb4 I'm not telling you you're going to become the second blah blah

>>25591815
>talent doesn't mean shit it's about mileage
>>25591820
>after one month or more or less regular drawing

You really do come out of the woodwork, don't you.

/r9k/ is getting shittier by the thread.

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>>25591799
then fucking practice anon and stop making shitty excuses on a mongolian fermented apple juice forum

>>25591858
Do you think Michael Jordan for example came out his mother's cunt being a great basketball player?
No he fucking didn't he worked his arse off.

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>>25591419
>Enough with the feels... lets talk about something else.
>Do you do any drawing?

Yes...

>>25591863
>>25591894
I'm not 'making excuses', you delusional retards.

I am pointing out your viciously anti-scientific mindset whereby you refuse to relate achievement, such as artistic achievement, to talent (nature), literally censoring certain findings, because you want people to 'try their best' and you pretend that stating that talent is not everything is 'excuses'/'cowardice'/'laziness'/...

You literally sicken me.

>>25591894
He's a fucking giant.

>>25591778
>>25591799
>>25591863
"Just practice" is the drawing equivalent of "just be yourself". It doesn't fucking work when you have zero skill and zero ability to learn due to mental deficiencies.

>>25591914
>inb4 of course practice is not everything, but you can't/must/ blah blah

It is old. Old. Old. And tired. Tired. Tired.

>>25591914
Where have I said that you were making excuses you autist?
Yeah fine let's say talent exists whatever you can still try to git gud at something you lazy piece of nigger shit.

>>25591914
y so mad bro. u jelly bro? no skill? ayy

>Raw natural talent
>Latent talent improved with practice
>No talent

Pick one and only one.

>>25591951
More censorship.

'Yesyesokayfinetalentexists BUT STILL EVERYONE WHO WANTS DISCUSSES IT IS A LAZY NIGGER SHIT LET'S THROW ROCKS AT HIM.'

This society is rotten.

>>25591748
yeah, and that inherently makes YOU cute too

>>25591914
I don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore but if talent is anything it's a drive to improve your art. You obviously lack that so I guess you're right then, anon.

>>25591975
In other words, the vitriol with which suggestions to discuss nature-nurture is universally met... is not worth it. Ever.

>>25591894
I think he came into his mother's cunt to make Kristen Schaal gayer.

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>>25591975
>More censorship.
>This society is rotten.

>>25591934
Your penis is small. Small. Small. And smelly. Smelly. Smelly.

>>25592003
>if talent is anything it's a drive to improve your art

You might be literally delusional. I don't think it would be right to talk to you.

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Pen / pencil initially to get the fundamentals down then move to digital later.

Also:

>>>/ic/

>>25592017
There is almost nothing that throws normalfags into defensive panic more than mentions that something might be genetically determined. 'Lazy', 'coward', 'excuses', literal insults, will flow.

>>25591914
Some people are going to be naturally more suited to some things.

Rimsky-Korsakov was a Russian composer who had synesthesia so he could see musical notes as colors. But you don't have to be able to see musical notes as colors inorder to be a composer

There's probably a room full of full-on autists at the NSA full of people who are better programmers than I'll ever be, but autism isn't a prerequisite for becoming a programmer.

>>25591923
>He's a fucking giant.
Yeah, MJ originally wanted to play baseball, but he found his frame better suited to playing basketball. But there are basketball players of all sizes. You don't even have to be a nignog to play basketball.

But mostly it is about practice. Everyone who was ever good at anything put in a shitload of practice. Talent, or natural aptitude does exist, but it comes out in the wash, because even those with 'talent' have to practice for like 10 years to become the best. Even 15 year old chess grand masters started playing chess when they were 5-6 years old.

So if you're not doing something that you're interested in because you don't believe you have talent, then your'e a faggot. There are people who paint better than I can using only their feet or mouth.

>>25591932
This to be perfectly honest my phamilia

>>25592054
Drawings were good until 4/14. At 7/14 you can see the exact moment the artist turned into a tumblr queer and started shitting out feminist garbage.

>>25591990
fuck off the artiste that drew this is my qt 3.14 asian gf so take a fucking hike you piece of shit

>>25592098
Pure time isn't shit.
You can practice wrong, and you can actually make yourself worse with practice.
CWC has been drawing regularly his entire life.

>>25592077
>mostly it is about practice

This is meaningless.

God.

Why does LITERALLY NO ONE on /r9k/ understand the simple concept of prediction?

I never met another person on here who also saw that 'x (talent, intelligence, genes) doesn't matter unless you practice' is literally devoid of meaning. And it is so easy to see.

>>25592105
>figure studies
>feminist garbage

Stop being so keen to talk about things that you have no understanding of whatsoever.

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>>25592131
>why can't people agree with my stupid wrong opinion?

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>never be artistic growing up
>Decide to try out drawing
>like landscapes
>just do simple 5-step landscape tutorials
>fill in the rest with other crap

It's a shitty drawing, but still pretty cool to make it out of simple techniques

>>25592131
(Saying 'x is mostly about practice/motivation/effort/dedication/trying/another fucking synonym/...' is literally saying 'x is mostly about doing things that result in x'. It is useless, it is worthless, it is trash.)

>>25592163
Anyone. Anyone. Just ONE person who sees this. Please.

>>25592105
>starts learning correct anatomy and expanding their horizons outside of big titty animu girls posing in the void
>hurr tumblr queer feminist garbage

>>25592166
>lol im so bad at drawing guys look at how BAD my drawing is say its good tho xD

>>25592166
I like your concepts, I think watercolor and ink would really help them pop.

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>>25592105
>feminist garbage
Where?

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>>25591858
>>25591914
>>25591975
>>25592073
>>25592131
I can't handle fedora tipping, this ignorant.

>>25592192
>this is autism
Give it a shot, anon

http://lifestyle.howstuffworks.com/crafts/drawing/how-to-draw-a-village.htm

>>25592131
You're right.
Anyone CAN technically force themselves to be good at a skill, but there's no real joy in that, most untalented people will either not do the thing or do it poorly and delude themselves into thinking they're good.
And there are sons of bitches who just ake to a skill instantly.

Practice functions as an effect of the learning curve, making it steeper or shallower.
You are sperging a little and throwing off the direction of the thread though.

>>25592240
well of course i wont be able to draw it because i cant draw for shit.
you on the other hand obviously can, yet feel the need to act like some facebook slut and say 'omg im so bad at drawing' so that people will respond to you and say your drawing is good, thus giving you the validation that your parents never gave.

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>>25592183
>expanding their horizons outside of big titty animu girls posing in the void

It's more than that, the style changed and literally became reddit tier "haters gonna hate" crap. I can smell the feminist vibes coming from it, just like all the other drawings on tumblr where they give everyone a stupid red nose for some reason. It's insidious and it's fucking tragic to see that it infected someone who had talent for drawing anime girls. The

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I've always liked drawing, I just can't seem to get motivated to get better though. plus I can't draw straight lines for shit. my hands shake like someone with parkinson's.

>>25592240
>Tiny article spread over 6 individual pages to maximize ad revenue

no thanks

>>25592282
Actually, ladscape stuff can be reduced to autistic geometry, look up "perspective drawing"
Just measure out the angles and do the math and you'll be fine.

>>25592179
>Anyone. Anyone. Just ONE person who sees this. Please.

In a (hopeless, hopeless, hopeless!!!) attempt to make someone, just one person, understand:

'You can do it, you just need to try' is literally patching an empirical relationship with filler preconditions. A sane person conceives of a typical person, their typical circumstances, upbringing, schooling, living situation, genes, and concludes whether they are going to be a good, say, drawer, in, say, ten years. And says, 'considering the conditions given, prolly not'. And then the motivating retards come as they must, must, must, and say, 'no that's not true you lazy piece of shit, of course you can become an artist, you just need to...', and proceed to undo the relationship out of meaning completely, because it is blown with the vacuous, tautological (yes, this word is fucking unavoidable) non-predictive 'you can do it as long as you make the effort required'. Which is platitudinal -- because the relationship stops having predictive content -- because what should be the predicted end (WHETHER I am going to practice) becomes the predicting end (GIVEN I am going to practice). When a scientific relationship begins to rely on conditions that are desirable in the first place ('you will succeed, you just need to ensure that you succeed'), it stops being scientific. It is only a relationship in name. Which is why it's worthless.

Thread over thread over thread, year over year over year... No one ever gets this.

>>25592222
Please. Just one person. I know I am going to be called retarded coward, autist, and so on. And I know I don't *need* to be understood by anyone. But hope... feels good.


>>25592279
>You are sperging a little and throwing off the direction of the thread though.

True. Thank you. Sorry.

>>25592316
> Get better
> Draw your own doujins directed at your specific fetishes
> Fap

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>>25592282
Except the only drawing I did was the previous landscape tutorials on that site I linked you.

Seriously, that sketch I showed is just a collection of the simple methods I had just learned from the previous steps.

Seriously, the first lesson was a wheat field and look at this shitty shit

Just try it, it takes 10 minutes

>>25592054
>specifically needs to call out that they own an apple pencil

macfags, everyone

>>25592316
Are you just angling your wrist to draw a straight line?
Move your shoulder and elbow instead, they're more naturally inclined to move your hand in a straight line.

>>25592353
I said seriously a lot but seriously just try it.

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Don't draw as much as I should be.

>What's better, mouse or tablet?

Charcoal or pencil.

>>25592363
it's not that, my hands just literally jitter all the time when not resting on something. I have neuron damage from exposure to pesticides at a young age.

>>25592330
Whatever excuse you need to not even try, anon

>Not having an ad blocker
>giving a shit about that in the current year

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compliment this please and thank you

>>25592389
Floating forms, senpai. No structure to the head.

>>25592409
forgib me i did it for the weebs on a kids site

>>25592389
HER HAIRLINE'S FUCKED UP CUZ!

>>25592340
tl;dr a relationship anchored in effort predicts nothing.

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i like to doodle little cartoon stuff. i'm not great but its not like i share my work with anyone. this is actually the first doodle I've saved in a long time.

>>25592434
IT'S STILL GOOD THO!

>>25592409
>>25592434
both of you say it looks good or ill fucking kill you

>>25592426
You are forgiven, anon. Pretty good otherwise, get the anatomy of the head down, don't use shitty photoshoped photos of flat faced Asian girls as references and you're sorted.

>>25592434
I was inspired by the mona lisa of course

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I've never tried to draw before, not since I was in preschool anyway. Drew this from memory in ms paint. Do I show any promise, senpai?

>>25591419
Talent and likeliness to develop a certain skill is genetic, and I don't have the genes for it. I've always wanted to draw, but I'll never be able to do it well. That's life, though.

>>25592386
do they jitter when you use a mouse?

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>>25592340
>because what should be the predicted end (WHETHER I am going to practice) becomes the predicting end (GIVEN I am going to practice)

So being good at things is all about practice, is what you're saying... Glad to see that you agree with what everyone has been saying all along.

>>25592514
I don't say meaningless things.

>>25592452
It's shit. You'd be popular on tumblr, though.

>>25592452
Jesus tone down the scott pilgram

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>>25592378
Come on, senpai.

Where's my ego stroking? All this effort is wasted now.

>>25592488
>That superb display of nonconformal anatomy
>that beautiful sexualization of todays untouchable symbol of gluttony and vanity, shrouded in a cartoony veil

11/10, would exhibit

>>25592521
Everything you've posted so far has been a meaningless incoherent rant.

If you want to practice something you should practice conveying your ideas clearly sempai.

>>25592540
its all right i guess
noblox

>>25592452
See this is exactly what I mean, it's generic as fuck and looks like every other snowflake faggot on tumblr. Why do you fuckers draw the noses red and weird like that? WHY? Develop your own style for fucks sake instead of just copying the feminist hivemind

>>25592378
>lustful Mark Twain
plz no

>>25592378
>>25592540
All that's wasted in your talent, on this representational tripe. Its misuse is an insult to everyone who misses it.

>>25592540
>>25592378
You're right, it's wasted. It's clear you have the genes for learning to draw, so keep drawing until you can make something unique.

>>25592532
>>25592533
>>25592565
like i said, i know its not good, i don't draw to please anyone but myself, i literally don't post anything anywhere except for right now.

>>25592521
>I don't say meaningless things.
Jesus Christ, just stop. You already crossed the full fedora line half an hour ago. This is getting pathetic.

>>25592557
>meaningless incoherent rant
>>25592606
>full fedora line

Fine. Keep saying 1 = 1 then, if this brings you a sense of purpose.

>>25592604
It's fine and even cute, you just are a little faggot and everybody's been so incensed that anyone who posts in this thread from here on out will be eviscerated by pissed off robots.

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>>25592599
>genes

Nice meme. I remember picking up the pencil when I came out of the womb and 'just getting it'.

It's not in your genes.

>>25592378
>>25592540
I like your drawings

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>>25592505
not as much, since I can rest my wrist. I have a tablet I inherited from my sister when she got a new one, I've used it. it's better since I can just try and try again to get a straight line, but that's frustrating too.

>>25592643
>there were no children who came out of the womb having already undergone puberty, therefore puberty is not genetic

Motivating retards' level of reasoning.

>>25592378
>>25592540
>>25592643
How did you learn to draw?

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>>25592645
Thanks.

>>25592567
>All that's wasted in your talent, on this representational tripe.

I don't think you know what studying means. I would not have talent without this.

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This thread, poor OP.

>>25592643
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2688647/
I appreciate the effort. Obviously you don't have it right at the start. The genetic part is how well you're able to pick it up.

Is regular ol' pencil and sketch-paper good enough for someone that's trying to learn/just beginning?

>>25592678
He obviously didn't learn, he is just naturally skilled. It's pretty obvious he has no creative talent though and can only copy and rehash other artists work.

>>25592701
>acquiring talent

Learn English, you retard.

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I wanted to be an artist then real life hit me like a ton of bricks

>>25592731
Did you draw this?

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>>25592670
Sorry, my bad. Now I recall it. Right around the time I got my first boner I just instantly knew how to draw naked girls.

It's kind of strange how this drawing gene which was probably crucial for survival kicked in around puberty for me. Makes me sad I wasted all those years pretending to develop my skill. Should have got my DNA tested earlier.

>>25592720
Where do you see the word "acquiring"?

>>25592678
Books, vidoes, practice practice practice.

>>25592772
Talent is innate by definition.

As for the rest of your 'reasoning', it's clear that you aren't even bothered by embarrassing yourself. So it's okay, I guess. Because I don't believe that someone could be as statistically illiterate as you otherwise.

>>25592731
I feel you. It happens to everybody, anon. Being an artist is so appealing, but most people just can't do it for one reason another.

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>>25592801
You seem to have an innate talent for shitposting and being a retard.

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I got a cheap tablet for christmas can anyone recommend a program to use for drawing? / any starting tips?

>>25592801
You're the fucking laughing stock of this thread, but just too dense to realize it. You have absolutely no self awareness and it was funny at first, but soon became tiring. I bet it's like that in your real life too.

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>>25592712
Your deduction skills are flawless. You've managed to deduce that it's in my genes and not from my years of studying. And you did it all the way from your room!

Wow. You better put up a notice somewhere to inform artists and tell them to stop trying. It's useless, they simply don't have it in them like me.

And I'm not even that good, my genes must be rather weak. Here's me the idiot thinking there's some correlation with studying the subject and me improving at it slowly over the years.

>>25592825
Correct. But unlike >>25592772, I control and contain it.

>>25592772 is just willfully ignorant of relationships of artistic ability with intelligence/IQ (pattern recognition/transformation/..., abstraction, ...), all other tons of genes involved (from memory to coordination to...), early formative experiences... Appears to be getting some sort of kick from it.

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This was my last really big attempt at a portrait. I fucked up the proportions but live and learn, right?

/ic/ made fun of me a lot for this

>>25592863
>it's in my genes and not from my years of studying

I am literally laughing.

After all those years, still funny somehow?

What CAUSED you to elect to spend years on studying, you tard? What facilitated it? What is responsible for immediacy of successes leading you to refuse to quit on the way?

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>>25592737
Yeah
>>25592808
Hold me brother

>>25592932
>>25592863
In other words, you idiot, the fact that YOU attribute your successes to your choices/resolutions/blah blah blah to keep trying doesn't mean that it IS the actual cause. It just means that you refuse to dig deeper, causally, empirically speaking. Which >>25592712 probably understands but you, frankly, probably never will. You know what? Just stick to drawing. Your drawings are uninspired, but at least drawings can't be (explicitly) ignorant, unlike what you spout.

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>>25592890
>is just willfully ignorant of relationships of artistic ability with intelligence/IQ (pattern recognition/transformation/..., abstraction, ...)

Groundbreaking stuff, senpai. Your capacity to recognize objects, understand 3D space, see colours etc is significant to drawing?

Realistically to some extent, yes. But having these things don't make you an artist from the start. It makes the process of learning easier. You can get there slightly faster than a drooling idiot, sure, but that doesn't mean that these people are ins some special advanced group and the rest of the population are incapable of understanding forms and visualizing 3D things on a 2D plane.

Your genetics only have a major role regarding your skill when your genetics actually obstruct your progress, such as being colour blind or impaired regarding spatial awareness.

>>25592932
>What CAUSED you to elect to spend years on studying, you tard?
Isolation. I wanted to get into film but was too stupid and lazy. Fell back on art. Wasn't good at the start, I didn't have a passion for it from early age. I just did it to be good, then it developed into a passion when I seen my work pay off.

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It's never too late, anons! You can always start drawing, no matter how old you are!
See this? This is by Grandma Moses. She started painting at 78, and now one of her pieces is held in the White House! Pick up those pencils, anons!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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This took me all of 4 minutes and it sucks.

>>25592985
That's like saying people are inately good at playing the guitar, or cooking food

>>25592932
This guy speaks the truth. People who are naturally talented persevere and spend months/years honing their skill. They assume that everyone else can "git gud" just because they did. However, at the other end of the spectrum is the person with no talent who tries and tries but fails every time. Even using tracing paper he sucks at reproduction. No amount of practice will raise his skills beyond a certain point because he is fundamentally deficient in that area.

>>25593024
>Realistically to some extent, yes.

>'Phase 3: reluctant concession. After the motivating retard has repeated his insults of cowardice, usually from 5 to 10 times, and having been exposed to fundamentals of heredity studies, he will concede the hereditary factor, but minimize its extent (keywords: 'to some extent', 'somewhat', 'slightly', 'mildly'). Next phase: pointing out unquantifiability of such terms.'

>>25593034
I like it. Call it "Trans Witch Taking a Piss in the Woods"

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>>25593048
>No amount of practice will raise his skills beyond a certain point because he is fundamentally deficient in that area.

Only if he has brain damage.

Humans have the capacity to learn and develop. Even mentally! Shocking news. Don't know why there isn't an article on ScienceDaily about it.

People who don't have the brain for it can still learn to draw, and they can become great.

/r9k/ is just trying to get any excuse they can to show why they should never try.

>>25593092
>>25593024
Also:

>>25593024
>I didn't have a passion for it from early age
>>25593024
>I just did it to be good
>>25593024
>then it developed into a passion

And there are TOTALLY NO genetic factors in tenacity to stick to a resolution to develop an interest into a passion, right?


The ride literally never ends...

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I drew this forever ago.

It's kinda meh

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>>25593110
>Only if he has brain damage.

That's pretty much implied considering the board and site we are on.

Anyone here recommend any particular drawing tablet/pad/whatever they're called and which programs are best?

>>25593042
>That's like saying people are inately good at playing the guitar, or cooking food

Yes. And?

>>25593048
See >>25593089. He conceded it, in >>25593024, in 'Your genetics only have a major role regarding your skill when your genetics actually obstruct your progress, such as being colour blind or impaired regarding spatial awareness.'

See how he consciously used vague, unfalsifiable terms such as 'a major role', without quantifying those? That's because he wants to LEAVE the impression that those obstacles are insignificant. He has an agenda. He has an active interest to leave you NOT knowing the extent of importance of genes in artistic ability.

Such is life.

>>25593189
Generic Dell mouse and MS Paint

>>25593205
Of course, this concession only came after I have been insulted with autistic, fedora, retard... such is life as well.

>>25593205
Don't blame me that you suck you lazy piece of shit

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>>25593089
I'll go back to my full proof and never mentioned argument of "people are blank slated, everyone is equal, skin colour doesn't matter" argument now.

Sorry that I got side tracked with that fallacy of adjusting my argument.

Being a good artist is not in your genes, some aspects of your mental capabilities which are hereditary just make the path faster/easier.

This "genes" argument is moronic for people here are implying your genes are all that matters. that you either got it or don't, and refuse to even acknowledge my argument that it's something which you can develop through, ohh gee I don't know, practice and studying the subject?

Pic related. My genes hard at work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_deafness

Some people, no matter how hard they try, will never ever be musical. The same applies to drawing. Some people just suck at it.

>>25593243
>Being a good artist is not in your genes, some aspects of your mental capabilities which are hereditary just make the path faster/easier.

'Being a good artist is not in your genes, it's just being a good artist is in your genes.'

Okay.

>This "genes" argument is moronic for people here are implying your genes are all that matters.

Nobody ITT said this.

And you are perfectly aware of this.


As I said... an agenda. Should be visible to all by now... But then, had I not taken the flak from you over the course of pointing it out, it would be left unstated.

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>>25592890
>willfully ignorant of relationships of artistic ability with intelligence/IQ (pattern recognition/transformation/..., abstraction, ...), all other tons of genes involved (from memory to coordination to...), early formative experiences

The reason people keep calling you fedorable is because you've probably just read a Richard Dawkins book that you got for christmas and are now trying to apply "muh genes" to everything you see around you.

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>>25593292
>Nobody ITT said this.

Aha.
>>25593048
>No amount of practice will raise his skills beyond a certain point because he is fundamentally deficient in that area.

>>25593322
You are not even trying at this point.

I consider your ignorance exposed.

>>25593337
>beyond a certain point

In fact, you are not even trying.

I am out.

Tip, anon: fallacies are really not the way to go. If you want to make people sympathetic to your environmental position (while refusing to discuss facts), aggression will only harm your cause.

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>>25592890
>relationships of artistic ability with intelligence/IQ (pattern recognition/transformation/..., abstraction, ...)

Actually if you try to think and abstract too much when you're drawing, it'll end up looking like shit, because you draw symbols instead of actually drawing what's there. Its a common mistake with beginners.

The way I see it, is that aptitude for art or whatever is a bit like character creation in the Elder Scrolls. You have a certain amount of "skill" in a given field at the start, and due to pre-determined aptitude you make gains much more quickly in that area of skill. This doesn't mean someone without that aptitude would never, eventually, reach the same heights as the pre-determined person, just that it will take them much, much longer and it will be much more difficult to reach that level.
The only difference is that you don't get to pick which are your "major skills" or which are your "minor skills." :^)

>>25593384
This is exactly what I meant. I meant pattern recognition in the sense of awareness that the pattern of 'eyelash' can be represented, executed, by different, sometimes very different, strokes. Abstraction. You need IQ for that.

>>25593048
Sounds like an excuse from faggots who never actually try

You're the artistic equivalent of HAES

>Wahh it's too hard for me because I never tried wahhh

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>>25593343
>I consider your ignorance exposed.

>>25593433
>>25593434
I strongly encourage you to try to reach with your rhetoric an audience swayed by arguments more substantial than 'excuses!' and memes.

>>25593427
>You need IQ for that.
No... you don't. You need someone to point out your mistakes so you can correct them and improve... through practice.

You seem to think that the process of learning a skill is to lock yourself in a dark room, invent that skill from scratch, and then emerge from that room being good at the thing you decided to learn. Thats bullshit. You learn from people who have already done what you're doing, who are better than you, you learn from their mistakes.

I learned programming, do you think I had to put together my own CPU using vacuum tubes and program it using punch cards? Fuck no I did tutorials.

Also IQ is a bullshit meme metric, science doesn't even know what intelligence really is let alone how to measure it well.

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>>25593467
Ah yes, I give many shits about how many anonymous people I sway

Truth is if you spent as much time actually sitting down and trying tutorials as you do shitposting about how it's too hard you might actually have some kind of a skill by the time you're 30

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>>25593376
Thanks for the tip. I'll learn from you and remember to be vague and shift goal posts.

Genes matter, now they don't, now it's clearly due to the many factors which influence every single person who's able minded, now this argument doesn't exist, now the other doesn't. People can learn, or they can't?

Think I got it.

It's all in the genes, right? Or not? I can't remember your point. Wait, was it that it's not all in your genes, that the word "all" is ruining my argument with a fallacy? I wonder where the rest comes from if genes don't control "all". I hope I didn't make a stupid argument in this thread.

>>25593511
>science doesn't even know what intelligence really is
>>25593511
>measure it well

Oh sweet Lord.

I wish there were someone competent in statistics ITT, so they could share my laugh.

Just one tip: it doesn't matter one fuck how intelligence is defined for IQ to have predictive value. You could define it as 'wondrous ability not to have brainfarts' and it would be still as valid (meaning, more socially valid than every single other factor).

>>25593539
>Genes matter, now they don't
>>25593539
>People can learn, or they can't?
>>25593539
>It's all in the genes, right? Or not?

It would be so much easier to cope with those if they were unintentional...

>>25593577
(In short, your error there was confusing verbal definition with, let's coin a word, operative definition.)

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>>25593539
If I wasn't clear:

This genes meme gives you a different learning curve compared to the person who has poor spatial awareness and problems visualizing objects in their mind. It does not make them incapable or being/becoming good.

>>25593577
>IQ is indicative of how good anyone can be at anything and nothing else matters
Fuck off sempai.

>>25593645
incapable of**

>>25593645
>It does not make them incapable or being/becoming good.

More tautologies.

'You can do it, you just need to do it!'

Embarrassing.

>>25593654
>nothing else matters

You're just trying for volume, aren't you.

A thread with great potential derailed by cunts. Great.

I want to start drawing. I downloaded "(Bert Dodson) Keys to Drawing.pdf" - is this a good book to start with?

>>25593674
>'You can do it, you just need to do it!'

What is Practice, Alex?

In /ic/ they drill the idea that hardwork always trumps talent whereas in /sci/ its vice versa

I wonder why.

>>25593699
A word lazy cowards have coined so to deflect responsibility for providing actually substantial, actually meaningful advice, as well as to tautologically sidestep the reality of natural and nurtural factors in terms of which, as opposed to 'practice', achievement can solely be discussed.

>>25593703
Ha.

Well, it's not exactly that. It's not 'hard work vs talent' really; mentions of hard work serve to deflect the discussion altogether. Again, people mention talent when they have the agenda to obscure the respective roles of nature and nurture.

>>25593773
>people mention talent when they have the agenda to
*people mention HARD WORK (effort, motivation, dedication, trying, not giving up, persevering...)

>>25593703
Because people who identify entirely with their intelligence and who have no interests outside of having pointless arguments on the internet need a satisfying excuse as to why they're miserable and useless.

I say this as someone who used to be one of them. My fedora could be seen from space.

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>>25593773
So what's your excuse for being a do-nothing /r9k/ poster?

Is it your shitty genetics or your shitty work ethic?

>>25593805
>excuse

This is a lie.

It is time that someone should say this.

This is a lie and you are accusing of cowardice the very people who daily suffer significant abuse for daring to speak of actual empirical determinants of achievement, which very much are in need of statement.

>>25593813
First, 'work ethic' is not a thing.


Then, I have always been an overachiever personally. I used to waste whole days pursuing my hobbies, to major social detriment arguably. Proof effort isn't worth shit if your IQ is low.

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>>25593834
>people who daily suffer significant abuse for daring to speak of actual empirical determinants of achievement

>>25593894
Wake up.

Or don't.

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My favourite painting. What do you think?

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>>25593894
Shhhh. don't tell him.

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>>25593917
Please give an example of your daily suffering of significant abuse, other than getting dumpstered in internet arguments on a mongolian cartoon imageboard

>>25593941
I was not speaking about myself.

Well... I guess that was a good thread.

If I ever need to win a bet as to whether I can get 100+ replies, I just have to remember that there's some autist on r9k who doesn't believe that skills can be learned through practice, and that all success is determined genetically.

>>25594024
>who doesn't believe that skills can be learned through practice, and that all success is determined genetically

I honestly wish that misrepresentation of yours were just a result of careless reading.

But experience has taught me that you know the truth, and lie consciously. Somehow it's harder to deal with.

>>25593883
>work ethic isn't a thing

So welfare queens don't exist? Sees like you have an inability to see outside of your own little box

>>25594073
'Work ethic' is too ambiguous to be meaningfully empirically related to anything else. Brain qualities, test results, life events, are not ambiguous. 'Work ethic' is.

>>25594071
>I can't convey my ideas clearly because I'm too busy trying to sound smarter than I really am
>anyone who doesn't understand my ramblings is a careless reader.

>>25591419
>Do you do any drawing?
>What's better, mouse or tablet?

2016. Not using quality drawing paper.

Fucking pleb.

>>25594071
>>25594024
(Note, I am not saying that 'skills can be learned through practice', because it is, obviously, meaningless -- it means 'skills can be learned through coming to have them'. I just took a mental shortcut and taken your post for 'he denies the role of environment'.)

>>25594102
So... You really don't have any talents or skills do you?

You must have pretty shit genetics

>>25594120
I am not talking about what you could have *(mis)inferred* from MY posts. I am talking about what you *assumed* YOURSELF. You, and some more people ITT if memory serves, assumed that I deny the role of environment; a knee-jerk assumption.

>>25594162
I can't possibly see where I could have implied that, but -- no, I don't, and yes, I do.

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>>25594215
So that confirms why you're here trying to shit on people that actually work to improve their skills and lives.

Sad really that you try to use big words to make up for your small self

>mfw you'll never do anything of note

>>25594268
>you're here trying to shit on people that actually work to improve their skills and lives

I think there is no way for you to read it otherwise.

>>25591419
>lets discuss drawing in /r9k
3 posts in
>I have no talent, I'm worthless blah blah blah
>just practice bro
>no I can't practice because I have no talent
How did you not see this coming?

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>>25593384
tried the upside-down method, it seems to help
~20 mins in SAI

>>25592279
>there is no joy in getting better
Correction, you feel no joy in getting better because you are bitter and have the mind of a twelve year old

>>25594323
Capability is a statistical relationship -- a statistical likelihood. One 'can' achieve something when one displays pre-established predictors of it. Motivating retards' purported capacity that joy-joy-everyone-has are worthless likelihoods: 'it is likely that you will achieve x if you work to achieve x'. This says nothing. This elucidates nothing. This makes people less self-aware.

>>25594367
>you are bitter and have the mind of a twelve year old

It no longer marvels me that people who say 'you can do it' are always the first to insult as well.

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some REALLY shitty polandball and other drawings I am not going to post because It is MLP drawfagging, fetish included.

Want to try and practice more anatomy and draw less cartoony and more realistic and/or anime style, but it is a lot of work and a lot of time and failure deters me from starting.

>>25594367
I actually like drawing, a lot, it's one of the reasons I haven' plastered my brains across a wall, but I don't like musical endeavors, there's a point in which the difficulty makes it shitty and unfun.
It would be the tits if I could play accordion. I would have to spend five miserable years to passably play though.

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>>25594425
just draw based off pictures of naked girls, you're already down a rabbit hole just keep going.

>>25594410
Because when "you can do it" is met with "Noooo my genes are too bad I know I've never actually tried but my genessssss"

Then there's no reasonable response other than to call you a faggot.

You are literally the same as the super fat women that blame their genetics for the reason they're unable to get thin.

>>25594386
>one can achieve something when he displays pre established predictors of it
No, this is wrong. One can accomplish something when one puts the effort required for accomplishing it.
By the way I'm not impressed by your pseudo attempt at fancy word intellectualism. Either learn real logic or keep sounding like a 15 year old

>>25594427
>there's a point in which the difficulty makes it shitty and unfun

This.

You probably don't realize how remarkable you are for embracing that awareness as opposed to reacting to it with knee-jerk accusations of laziness and cowardice.

On some level of insignificance of improvement, on the level at which you just mechanically churn out one uninspired drawing after another, it is just joyless and pointless to grind forward with drawing/programming/playing/socializing/whatever. Motivating retards will arbitrarily assert, '...but you can make it fun!' (...if, for instance, 'you consciously seek out extra materials or sources online which will inspire you!'), but they will never realize that they are just changing the established context of the relationship. Sure, if it becomes granted that one will have been exposed to inspiring, stimulating materials, then his/her learning will be more fun -- but this is irrelevant. Because the relative gap between their efforts and of a naturally inspirable, stimulable person will remain. So the role of innate talent will remain exactly the same as ever.

But this has been said, and unheard, way too many times.

>>25594499
>>25594525
Hush.

>>25594410
>the people who says you can do it are the first to insult
This is a fallacy, any persons natural response to finding a man baby complaining that their faults are everyone elses is to insult him

>>25591419
tablet is better by far. Get an intuos and you're good for life, bro.

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My art in nursery years

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>>25594603
My art age 12 or 13

>>25594361
Not bad m8
bloxlololol

>>25594547
(In other words, motivating retards' sole trick is violating the parametres of the discussion. Where a rational person would discuss feasibilities of an achievement, such as mastering a medium or an instrument, within (as I explained) the parametres of one's past, such as social or familial background, the m.r. will violate this with this revelation of 'no, that's not true, you can do it as soon as (cue a new condition) YOU ENSURE that you do it'. This is laughable in its irrelevance really.)

>>25594573
This is not a fallacy. I didn't bring it up in lieu of a counterargument; I just made an observation. Far from for the first time, too.

>>25594547
Why are you in a drawthread though if you can't draw and you'll never draw.
If somebody cut my legs off I wouldn't get mad at threads about jogging, I'd just avoid them.
I mean, it would be annoying if I was told my legless torso could pull off a marathon if I "tried really hard :^)"

>>25594547
If fun is the only thing you care about then go play a videogame. Drawing is fun, doing it over and over is not until that hundred or thousand drawing that comes out better then its fun for a while and it stops until you achieve again. This goes on until you are good enough to produce quality work.
This is the logic that governs all in a meritocracy.
It also means that if you only play videogames you are going to end up hating yourself so there is no escape

>>25594686
You are making no point.

>>25594670
It's very simple: because motivating retards' sophistry of 'practice practice practice' diminishes popular awareness of meaningful science such as >>25592712. I want to speak out whenever science is being obscured.

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>>25594620
My art 1 year ago
It's copied from another picture but it looks good

>>25594637
No logic person would discuss the feasibility of achievement based on the parameters of a person's past

>>25594761
It is literally the only thing it can be discussed using.

>>25594736
Yes I am, fun its not an end you dense piece of shit. Getting better is an end, producing something of quality is an end, even getting appreciation is an end. How can someone who doesn't understand this can consider himself smart is beyond me. Please hold on to that fake sense of accomplishment and never ever discuss it shit someone who can challenge it because it's all you got, because there is no value in you

>>25591419
I'm pretty fond of drawing, and I either do it on paper or tablet. I like the ability to instantly share drawings and color them and shit, but I always miss that feel of pencil/pen hitting paper. So if I'm going for quality, tablet. If I'm just fucking around, probs mouse or pencil

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I wish I had more time/drive to learn anatomy, I'll just scribble around like a faggot until I git gud.

>>25594634
thanks

appreciate it, been trying to do more life drawing and this thread is motivating me

>>25594794
Based on what? Who looks at a baby and says this baby has shown no signs of wanting to walk before therefore it shall remain bound to a chair. How does that make sense? If talent is genetic then how could you possibly know you don't have it? Are you a genetist? Have you studied generations of your family? Can you issolate the art gene?

>>25594736
That information will reach more people who need to hear it elsewhere, start a thread.
Most people who've sworn by the practice makes perfect meme treat it as gospel, and will never be won over.
And most allistics (I'm assuming you're a sperg like me because of your writing style and refusal to submit) see persistence in a discussion as weak, laughable, and a sign of immaturity- this is because despite their own convictions they will immediately throw away their opinion once a consensus has been reached within a group.
These people think agreement is more important than science.

>>25592127
Yeah. I used to be shit as a kid, but I looked to other artists as influences and kinda mirrored them and mixed styles until I had my own. It's a matter of finding what you like and making it.

>>25594880
Oh boy we have a scientist here
Please proove using scientific facts how can a person draw or not based on his genes and how can you tell if this person has the art genes

>>25594947
Or is it the hability to argue using 4 syllable words that makes you one

>>25594947
I never said I was a scientist, I'm sorry you inferred as such.
The anon I was agreeing with already posted a neat little article.
You won't read it, and that's okay.

>>25595005
You said you use science when all you do is make wild retarded claims and cite jezbel oh and use words you think other people can't understand.
If you are truly using science then answer my questions
If talent is genetic how can you proove that you don't have the art genes?

>>25595062
You wouldn't think that your hability to Google something you already think in 3 minutes and post it here means you are using science don't you?

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This is a draw thread right? I'm practicing assets. Am I doing it right?

>>25595062
I'm not the poster who's been arguing that point, I'm a sympathizer.
Have you read >>25592712
yet?
It's a nice jumping off point in the research.
Genetics really aren't simple enough that you can sequence somebody and determine whether they have "the art genes".

>>25594992
>>25595099
Also, if you use the word hability in your angry sameposts everyone will know it's just you.
Nobody else uses hability.

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Am I any good faggots?

>>25595150
I like it.
Keep up the good work mate.

>>25595184
>I can't draw because I don't have talent
>I can't possibly know if I have artistic genes
Choose one
Point debunked

>>25595240
I don't try o hide myself behind my wording like a certain someone

>>25595245
tracing/10
You can do better, son.

>>25595245
You just copied that tho.
Anyone can copy

>>25594822
What are you talking about? Your 'ends' and 'values' are literally immaterial. I'm not interested in some sort of ends, I'm interested in the role of measurable factors in the likelihood that a person says out the words 'I quit' and actually quits, and how much ability, e.g. artistic, they manage to build before they do. Facts. And again, before you say that 'regardless of science's findings regarding feasibility of a certain achievement, a person can always go out on a limb and personally ensure that they achieve even more, which means that practice is still a thing', see >>25594637.

>>25594872
Moving the goalposts. First you said it is illogical to discuss feasibility based on one's past, now you're saying it is 'hard' to discuss it. 'Hard' being an undefined term aside, it has never been questioned.

>>25594880
I can't believe someone else knows the term 'allistic'. I use it from time to time. Believe it or not, I'm not autistic at all. Just socially isolated and thus having so far escaped the normie memes such as practice or free.

Cheers.

>>25595005
I didn't post that study BTW -- I'm just aware that they exist.

>>25595649
>or free
*or free will

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hello fellow robots this is my "artist" journal. I've always sucked at drawing, so one day i've decided to start improving my drawing skillz.

After a months of trial and error i've decided to stop because i lack the motivation to continue. Enjoy my awful picture

>>25596139
You never stopped symbol drawing, anon. That was your problem. If that's the best out of multiple months, then it could be you just weren't meant to draw.

>>25596204
*after a month (i've mistyped)

i've never been interested in a realistic type of drawing, because i prefer more abstract/symbolic/autistic style, so i've had no interest in continuing improving myself

>>25596406
sounds like you're just lazy

>>25596433
yeah got it

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>>25591419
I posted this in /gd last night but I honestly just love it so much.
Tablet is definitely better if you're good at drawing, and you can get them pretty damn cheap. I recommend the bamboo create, I got that for my best friend for Christmas.
Honestly, I know you gotta have the budget or very caring parents around the holidays, but go for a cintiq. I got the 13 HD wacom cintiq, cheapest one, works BEAUTIFULLY.
I still use my art desk and sketch books from time to time.

>>25593925
I really like this, something about the depth (sorry for sounding like an asshat)

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i draw sometimes

>>25591748
that's p good my nigga

>>25592077
>even those with 'talent' have to practice for like 10 years
>tfw too old to start

>>25591419
>only does digital art
>>25591431
This, or other traditional methods.

There's very little value in work done on a platform where you can press undo, copy and paste, and other easy stuff.

>>25598565
>There's very little value in work done on a platform where you can press undo, copy and paste, and other easy stuff.
*tips fedora*

>>25598748
It's true though. Digital art is still neat, but is simply the easy mode of art.

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I gave up drawing a while back. Getting back into it feels disappointing since I can't even draw something as good as this old sketch anymore. Even if I can picture the design and structure all my strokes come out like shit..

>>25598877
There is no easy mode in art. If you don't know how to draw a horse for example, having the ability to undo, cut and paste or whatever digital trick won't help you at all if you don't have the correct forms and fundamentals in your head.

is there something like a levelled drawing guide that gradually gets harder? I love me some numbered progression desu
really helps to keep my autism in check senpai

>>25592054
holy shit tableguy is a robot too?

>>25591748
KEEP
GOING
MY
FRIEND

>tfw i draw constantly but never put my work anywhere for anyone to see because i know bad feedback would make me quit

But I'm not good at anything and I don't have any hobbies besides staring at screens bro
You actually have things to start conversations about with people?
w o o o w

File: A message from the void.jpg (46KB, 338x448px) Image search: [Google]

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Made this while crying the whole time.
Don't know why or what it is.

File: northern lights w: colours copy.png (31KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

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>>25592166
i did a similar thing with MSPaint

File: 9-01-2016=02.png (654KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

654KB, 800x600px

Just been playing around with different brushes in Photoshop CS6

>>25596139
Don't stop drawing, anon.

My early sketches looked crude and even now, after approx. 10,000 drawings I still draw pretty rough.

But I enjoy it and find it relaxing, hope you do too.

File: IMAG006 (1).jpg (322KB, 1084x784px) Image search: [Google]

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I do a webcomic,and I dream of making a living from it someday. I prefer a more "engineered " strip,but the past few years has forced me to generate strips directly from sketchbooks with minimal clean up and dialogue revision. But the Magic creeps through. Here is one of the latest...
http://www.jeremeyprickles.com/

>>25601070
It's your despair.

File: a bird told me small.jpg (2MB, 1200x742px) Image search: [Google]

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There are good days and there are bad days, art is nice, and it's the only thing that brings a small sense of selfworth into my life as of now.

Sometimes I wish I would just give up and end it all with a dose of Nembutal.

>>25603295
That sure is a lot of words.

>>25604081
i like this, good work anonymous poster

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>>25591419
I tried drawing for a month

It was alright. I see the appeal but it's too much of a waste of time to actually get good and there's not much you can do with that talent