How do /Pol/aks feel about the fact that Poland pretty much got

>>135925700
Fucking idiot. Polish-LITHUANIAN COMMONWEALTH. Not just that, but the concept of a NATION state wasn't even a thing back then. Hang yourself with your gyno titties, fatso

>>135925700
The areas that wouldn't get gobbeled up by the Prussians or us in that timeline would be even bigger shitholes than they are now

>>135925859
>butthurt Lithuanian diaspora detected
lets be honest, the Poles did all the heavy lifting.

>>135925859
It was literally only the Commonwealth of Poland after 1791.

>>135926051
Poland was on the verge of fixing itself, that's why Catherine flipped shit.

>>135926065
>can't even see the flag through all the fat covering his eyes

>>135926178
no!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

>>135925859
absolutely this
americans cannot imagine a world without nationstates. they legitimately cannot break the conditioning because they have no connection to their heritage.

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>>135925700
Dark green -Balt Pgan clay-100%
Light green- disputable between Balts and real slavs
Light Purple disputable between Pagans and Germans
Dark purpole-GERMAN clay
(oh muh hollolololcaust, I left you place to live in for polaks they "deserve" in...

>>135926412
>no!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
Hmm?
>To further enhance the Commonwealth's integration and security, the constitution abolished the erstwhile union of Poland and Lithuania in favor of a unitary state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_May_3,_1791#Features

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>>135928216

>>135926051
most of this lands was Polish clay from start. it was given to Teutonic Order
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order
After 1410 Poland should take this land back and we will be in so different reality now

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>>135928216 as always Germany want to mangle the history.. ehh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order

>>135932044
>given
[original document needed]
It is suspected that it was forged later and Teutons were not given anything permanently at all, but Poland at the time wasn't united and couldn't force them to contain their autism.

>>135929856
>The constitution remained in effect for little over a year before being overthrown by Russian armies allied with conservative Polish nobility in the Polish–Russian War of 1792, also known as the War in Defense of the Constitution.[70]

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This is the best map of Poland.

>>135935038
>75%

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>>135925700
>how do we feel
most of us don't give a fuck, Poland got so BTFO in WWII that we were reversed by 1000 years in terms of expansion to the east. Only some nationalist retards bitch about muh Wilno, muh Lwów. Pic related is II Republic of Poland, notice how borders resemble the red line. That line was created by Dmowski, the biggest pest of modern Poland. If it weren't for him, we could've made a federation with equal Lithuania (in original terms, Kaunascucks) and Ukraine. But noo, he had to make every nation of former Commonwealth hate each other, well done Romuś.
>If Poland maintained the lands
better industrial development, worse literature. but I can't really picture that

>>135925859
dude, you partially right, but the plc was a nobles republic and in an abstract sense therefore somewhat of a nation state.

the culture that emerged there was polish only in language (and that also just to a certain degree), but otherwise a amalgamation of the constituent noble sub cultures. Later on, what we now describe as polish, is in fact that culture, which was then adopted by the lower classes, while the original polish culture, just as much as Lithuanian and ruthenian vanished. That's why you got the voluntary polonisation of the Lithuania and that's also how tadeusz kosciuszkos nationality is no paradox in the sense of modern interpretation.

anyway, later on this whole complex of course split due to different influences from occupation powers and romanticism and whatnot, but the plc as such was a nation state of the szlachta, for they indeed shared common values, goals and culture. They even created this weird as legend about their heritage to differentiate themselves from the peasants.

anyway, enough of my autism.

>>135925700
>Ukrainians within borders
Country confirmed to be a 100% shithole

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>Ameribrainlet thread

>>135937367
>original polish culture, just as much as Lithuanian and ruthenian vanished
Polish culture dominated other eastern cultures. It didn't vanish, it got enriched by them. Other than that I agree, cheers

>>135937295
>That line was created by Dmowski, the biggest pest of modern Poland.
Kys.

>>135938263
yes, vanishing is probably the wrong word. But the change was considerably enough to make a distinction between 'old polish' and 'new polish'.
I mean Sauna was really popular in your country before the Union of ... I don't know anymore.

But my point is that the PLC was carried by a more or less uniform culture, that was the Szlachta. I think you even see that expressed in your national epos, where you have this polish noble mourning the loss of his country by saying 'lithuania, my fatherland ... thou art like whatever ...' (I think litwin is a very similar concept to what I have in mind here) and then goes on describing the culture in form of his families empty cottage. (I really didn't get beyond the first few pages, sorry.).

Anyway, don't take it as an attack on the polish people. It's more like I'm trying to describe ethnogenesis in a way. (So much for enough of my autism)

>>135939565
You're right, the "naród szlachecki" (noble nation) was a concept deeply rooted in the country, which directly lead to the rise of Sarmatism and the belief that nobles are not Slavs but descendents of ancient Sarmatians. Poles, Lithuanians, Rusins were all peasants in their eyes. Majority of the peasant national traditions have been forgotten over time, reduced to small superstitions and the noble customs took their place as the literacy increased and the books that glorify the old times have spread. You could say that the current state of the cultures in the region is a syncretism of the noble culture sprinkled with some regional cultural remains.

>>135939565
No, elaborate even more.

>>135939469
>"Let's create Polish ethnostate, POLAN STRONK"
>"But sir, lots of Poles live among Belarussians and Ukrainians, how do we draw a border?"
>"We'll put a straight line from Lithuania to the Carpathians and Polonize what's in between"
>But wouldn't that make nations of Belarussians and Ukrainians mad? They will plot against u-"
>"SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY POLSKA FOR POLES REEEEE"
>

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>>135925700
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3PQxVFJ4M0

>>135925859
>Polish-LITHUANIAN COMMONWEALTH
A name made up in the early XX century because Lithshit butthurt.

Serenissima Res Publica Poloniae, most serene commonwealth of Poland was the name of the state.

Lithuanian language wasn't even fucking recognised as a minority language in the day. Polish, Latin and Ruthenian were.

Read a book nigger.

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Personally, I think this is a better representation of the area

>>135940852
If you smart you can see on that pic where american flag came from
It happen thanks to Kosciuszko

>>135940618
Yes, exactly, - And because you have this historic tendency for lower classes to imitate behaviour of the elites in an attempt to increase their status, you find that the ruling classes culture becomes mainstream and ubiquitous over time no matter what. Just like the consumption of sugar was a privilege to the upper nobility in england and thereby became en vogue once sugar became affordable to the merchant class. Or like modern teenagers imitate celebrities. Anyway, you can say that the somewhat chauvinistic claim that Lithuanian culture is artificial, can be reasonably made. And of course the same applies to Belarusian and Ukrainian cultures. Whereas the polish nation just kept going with this "new" and adapted (to foreign occupation) PLC culture, which then was dubbed polish. In that regard Piłsudskis attempt to reunify polish lands is no coincidence, because from that perspective they are indeed polish, or poland lithuanian if you so will.

But this does by no means mean that lithuanians, benlarussians, ukranians and poles, haven't become their own thing by now. But when you look a little deeper in things like folk superstitions and such, you'll find an extraordinary amount of the same beliefs in all four countries, while at the same time you can easily trace their origin back to another one of the four. But honestly there ends the little I know about that part of europe.

>>135925859
It was Polish-Lithuanian as long as you get the wrong definition of Lithuanians back then.
a Lithuanian was literally a pole having roots in GDL. The confusion doesn't come out of nowhere you know...
Modern day samogitians had no representation in PLC

>>135928216
>Częstochowa, Kraków, Chełm
>German
???

>>135940618
>>135942269

oh yeah, there's one thing I might add which I find actually quite interesting. There's this often ridiculed idea of the Intermarium concept - but I have to say, because of the shared history and how related the nations of eastern central europe are, I find the Intermarium way easier to create and justify than say the European Union. Even if it's just for the ease with which you can create a historic interpretation that justifies its claim to power. I think it's incredible the concept hasn't been discussed more prominently in the past. (Not that I am in favour of any super state.)

>>135943288
by the way, you find this exact line of reasoning used in this music video to justify a demand for democratic rule in belarus. (lithuanians are butthurt about that one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlagbg9qkM

but you can see how easy it'd be to justify reunification of the PLC territory.

>>135942919
>>135942268
>>135940935
VETO

How the fuck do you think they were formed, too? You've just forgotten about the independent states that were robbed of sovereignty to form the first 'Poland' because they lost, just as the Poles did.

>>135946309
what? no. The creation of the PLC was a organic started with a political marriage in face of threats from both the west and the east and a slow usurpation of power by the aristocracy in the following centuries.

In that regard it's not very different from most early kingdom which often times were formed due to outside threads and a subsequent unification of tribes under a single leader for defence. (And like so often with war policies, created power structures gets seldom revoked).

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>>135946309
>You've just forgotten about the independent states that were robbed of sovereignty to form the first 'Poland'
Wtf are you talking about? Those Lechitic (proto-Polish) tribes could hardly be called "states".

>>135946309
>How the fuck do you think they were formed
>1385 – Union of Krewo – a personal union that brought the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Jogaila, to the Polish throne
>1401 – Union of Vilnius and Radom – strengthened the Polish–Lithuanian union[2]
>1413 – Union of Horodło – heraldic union which granted many szlachta rights to Lithuanian nobility
>1432 (1432–34) – Union of Grodno, a declarative attempt to renew closer union
>1499 – Union of Kraków and Vilnius, in which the personal union became a dynastic union, recognising the sovereignty of Lithuania and describing interaction between the two states
>1501 – Union of Mielnik – a renewal of the personal union
>July 1, 1569 – Union of Lublin – a real union that resulted in creation of the semi-federal, semi-confederal Republic of the Two Nations (Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_union

>>135948324
I was talking about the later state. Overlooked the word 'first' Probably because I was preoccupied by what wrote before. Anyway, in that regard, I still think you willl find that the formation of the tribal state under whoever was Miezkos I. father and his father, was probably (I'm not completely sure, because I never bothered to really read this up), still heavily influenced by christian expansion from the west. And the moment you can actually speak of a proper Poland, those tribes were constituting as what you'd say is the polish nation at that point.
I think for the argumentation at hands it might be more wise to use the case of I don't know what they were called, the slavs around Rugia, who formed a pagan state and then were fucked over by joined polish and german efforts.

>>135947457
>In that regard it's not very different from most early kingdom which often times were formed due to outside threads and a subsequent unification of tribes under a single leader for defence.
>give up your independence and submit to my rule and I'll protect you
Holier-than-thou is not an argument. Territorial expansionism is nothing to be afraid of.
>>135948324
Now they aren't even 'states'. I guess they just had to be incorporated into the empire. What else could we have done?
>>135948725
I was referring more to the following:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I_of_Poland#Conquest_of_Pomerania
I guess statehood wasn't a familiarity, so they just 'asked' the be invaded. Expansionism for me, but not for thee.

>>135950890
>Holier-than-thou is not an argument. Territorial expansionism is nothing to be afraid of.

what? no, but the majority of polish expansion during this whole 'largest country in europe' episode was made by diplomatic means. that's why I didn't think your statement was applicable.

but like I was told by some other anon you meant the formation of the initial kingdom of poland anyway. I think that too is a little skewed, because those tribes who got subjected there, are the Poles. Like THE Proper Poles. In that regard, like I already said it's easier to reference the subjugation of pagan tribes in the north who had established their own kingdoms.

(And by the way, if I remember right, the unification of poland under Mieszko and hist forerunner, was too to a large degree diplomatic. But well, it's not like I'm really sure about it or anything else I say for that matter.)

I'm russian, but I may have a west slav genotype, and I'm pro-polish.

>>135952940
>what? no, but the majority of polish expansion during this whole 'largest country in europe' episode was made by diplomatic means.
Then we are discussing different time periods. I am concerned with the conquests and expansionism, not the diplomatic efforts. One does not negate the other.
>I think that too is a little skewed, because those tribes who got subjected there, are the Poles. Like THE Proper Poles
Who says that they ought to follow the authority of some monarch or ruler? What if they want to be independent states?
>if I remember right, the unification of poland under Mieszko and hist forerunner, was too to a large degree diplomatic. But well, it's not like I'm really sure about it or anything else I say for that matter.
I'm sure some of it was. My entire premise is to point out that expansionism is not unique to a nation you wish to smear. I don't care if Poles conquer land: that's what war is about. So they have no right to complain about the same conquest against them. This applies to every empire across all of history.