MAJOR IMMIGRATION DEBATE TOMORROW!

>>103270992
I believe the popular counterargument is "they took our jobs"

File: wan piss mun.png (55KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 300x300px

>wanting con arguments against increased immigration from /his/ when /pol/ exists

OP is a nigger

>>103270995
> Implying "OP is nigger in /his/"
Have you seen nigger IQ? They are not sophisticated enough for /his/.

>>103270994
This

There is a board called /pol/. Go there if you want to interact with retards.

unsustainable, eventually the immigrants will age and need pensions and healthcare too

gdp may increase but gdp per capita will decrease as overpopulation puts a strain on the resources available per person (resources like water and energy, not space which is irrelevant)

low income immigrants rarely pay more more in tax than they receive from social welfare, also putting a strain on resources

high income immigrants were at the top of the list to begin with and so do not represent the next cohort of immigrants that would enter the country

legal immigration has to decrease due to illegal immigration, the implication is a law abiding potential tax paying chinese engineer has less right to become a citizen than a guatemalan who broke the law crossing the border illegally

illegal immigrants are often lied to with the promise that the US is a utopia

most immigrants will vote for the far-left or islamic extremists

the questionable ethics of letting other countries pay for childcare and education of a citizen only for them to come to the US while Americans have less and less children who are replaced by immigrants

the questionable ethics of hiring an immigrant from the other side of the world instead of a homeless person on your doorstep

>>103270999
>low income immigrants rarely pay more more in tax than they receive from social welfare, also putting a strain on resources

What a load of complete bullshit

>most immigrants will vote for the far-left or islamic extremists

Again, complete bullshit that is completely unfounded in reality, most immigrants don't want more immigrants from far left or islamic devices in the context of the US, Australia and UK

>the questionable ethics of hiring an immigrant from the other side of the world instead of a homeless person on your doorstep

You're a complete pseud but commercial ethics and common sense promotes the idea that skilled immigrants probably have a better skillset than a homeless person

>>103270999
>the questionable ethics of hiring an immigrant from the other side of the world instead of a homeless person on your doorstep
yeah, because the immigrants from the other side of the world have the same skills as the hobo on your doorstep.
retard.

>>103270992
Immigration does promote greater US economic growth, the question is *who* does the growth go to?

Unless there is a policy for bringing in educated immigrants only, most immigrants will be low-skill. Low-skill immigration increases the supply of labor, which lowers wages. The savings from lower wages for the companies go to the top half, while the bottom half suffers.

US governments have to provide entitlements to immigrants. Evidently the immigrants being introduced to grow the economy aren't capable of dealing with the collapse of the social security system and a government where 60c to every dollar is spent on entitlements that's ballooning the US debt. The US doesn't need more unskilled labor, it needs a more competitive economy. Immigration is a band-aid fix that simply slows down the rate at which the US economy collapses due to the immense deficit the US government is facing and is failing to deal with.

>>103270992
Those Irish are drunkards and Catholics and we should have nothing to do with them.

Oh wait, you're talking about the present year? Meaning something not related to at least 25 years ago? Then I can't help you.

>>103271002
The point is anon, your kids are supposed to have upwards economic mobility. Immigrants are a way to have a perpetual underclass that works for the bare minimum, and be happy about it, to prop up the upper and middle classes. First generation low skill immigrants are basically like slave labor. But instead of telling them them and their kids will be slaves forever, we tell them their kids will be better off (and also have a low fertility rate) and we import new immigrants to be the underclass. What happens if you have poor entitled people that want to be lazy, live a middle class life, and stay in the bottom rung of society and compete with the cheap immigrant labor. It's like they didn't get the memo they were supposed to move on up to a class that benefits from cheap immigrants.

>>103271000
>>103271001
I like how he's just giving OP potential argument statements for a debate topic, and you guys get triggered the fuck out.

Really makes you think.

Rich get richer, poor get poorer, middle get less middle, more poor.

Immigration benefits business owners and business owners, only. It forces fifty men to fight over a single grain of rice, as opposed to business having to proposition workers.

>>103271006
because the last point he raised is completely bollocks.
Hiring a person who is obviously unqualified for a job because he lives right next door is fucking dumb. You don't let billybob become a reservoir engineer because he cleaned jet pumps during the shale oil boom.

>>103270992
The premise is founded on prejudicial logic and or puts the cart before the horse.

Immigrants are not ordered by the U.S. government like mail order brides; immigration cannot be "increased" by policy.

Meaningful policies in the control of the federal government that affect immigration are purely security oriented. (How much funding enforcement receives, and how strictly they enforce the established policies.)

Short of a bottom up jobs program, a tax reward for foreigners that would never pass congressional muster, or actually encouraging economic and jobs growth to points that immigration becomes attractive to non-citizens/residents there is nothing to be done.

Whether immigration feeds further economic growth until market saturation is neither here nor there; you need wealth and stability to attract immigrants, not the other way around.

I promise you, nothing Syria decides to do with it's governmental policy is going to "increase immigration" and or get their refugees back.

>>103271008
>because the last point he raised is completely bollocks.
>Hiring a person who is obviously unqualified for a job because he lives right next door is fucking dumb. You don't let billybob become a reservoir engineer because he cleaned jet pumps during the shale oil boom.

That's now how debating works anon.

A statement doesn't have to be righteous or anything, all it needs do is allow for an argument that forces the opponent to concede the point. Competitive debating is about the argument itself more than the validity of what is being argued. Morality arguments are good ways of trapping people because they necessitate the holding of a position greater than just the immediate statement.

>>103271010
the last point anon presented was flat out wrong because there is no moral compunction in hiring a person who is better for the job you want to do because he is from the other side of the world.

>>103271011
>the last point anon presented was flat out wrong because there is no moral compunction in hiring a person who is better for the job you want to do because he is from the other side of the world.

A lot of people would disagree.

>>103271007
No it ducking doesn't. Its just growth and it rectifies eventually.

File: ayy_lmao.gif (1MB, 346x188px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 346x188px

>>103270996

>>103271012
then they would be flat out wrong.

>>103271015
>then they would be flat out wrong.
Why?

>>103270999
>unsustainable, eventually the immigrants will age and need pensions and healthcare too
You might as well argue that capitalism is unsustainable and we should all go commie.

>>103271015
>then they would be flat out wrong.
>ethics
>right and wrong

getting pretty spooky here f a m

delete /his/

>>103270992
Pretty damn easy to what's wrong with immigration if you aren't a billionaire.

>economic growth TO WHAT END?
Bust their balls on this until they have no choice but to admit 'lol we're just going to expand until there are 50 billion people on Earth our great-grandchildren will have science so they'll be fine.'

Don't argue against immigration, that's asking to be ARE YOU KIDDING ME'D into submission. Instead tear down economic growth for the spook it is. People knew how to be happy before incremental smartphone upgrades existed. A recession won't be nice but it'll certainly beat the fuck out of whatever we're inflicting on our descendants if we don't control our populations now.

File: c62[1].jpg (136KB, 546x700px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 546x700px

>>103271006
>Calling out bullshit is now the same as being triggered
Back to your safespace faggot

>>103271020
>economic growth is a spook

>>103271022
Touch the economy. Tell me what it feels like.

>>103271023
touch the air.
tell me how it feels like.

>>103271024
light resistance to my hand in every direction

File: yP0r017.jpg (89KB, 680x418px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 680x418px

>>103271023
Like the dusty husks of a million Chinese people worked to death.

>>103271025
how would you know if it is light resistance?
what's your baseline?

>>103271027
Baseline is no resistance. Light is a force I can feel that doesn't tire me.

>>103271028
>no resistance
the only way that would happen if you were exposed to a vaccum you mong.

It's pretty simple OP.

Immigration results in new voters.

New voters can change what the 'population' as a whole wants.

Mexicans are mostly Catholic.

Catholics hate abortion and lots of other liberal causes, since they're filthy Christcucks.

Argue that to protect our liberal values (Gay marriage, abortion, etc) we should severely limit immigration.

... incidentally this is the sole reason I'm not 100% pro immigration. Mexicans and most other immigrants are conservative as fuck. They only vote democrat because the republicans rail so hard against them. Hell, haitian immigrants tend to vote republican.

>>103270999
>most immigrants will vote for the far-left or islamic extremists

Really, it's more that the American right has been so right wing for a while now that Americans think even moderately left wing politicians are "far left". The point about Island extremists is retarded.

>>103271006
You're projecting.

What's the use of giving OP debating points if the points are retarded and don't stand up to any criticism?

>>103271029
I don't think that I have to feel it to understand the principle do I?

>>103271030
You realise that the mental religious zealots in the US are overwhelmingly Americans?

>>103271033
Exactly.

You don't have to feel economic growth to understand it's real.

Immigration is immoral because you're continuing the Western imperialism and robbing the 3rd world of their greatest resource, talented young people.

In closing, may Allah kill each Westerner and bring about eternal cennet on this Earth.

>>103271033
no, going by your retarded logic, air is a spook because you can't quantify it without roundabout experiments. "Feeling" something is a pretty spooky metric now that you think about it.


The economy is an abstract concept that translates into real world implications. It might be a "spook" because it is not physically present but influences your life just the same.

>>103271034
nah, they are all illegal immigrants.
t. gymnast of the mental kind.

>>103271035
>>103271037
It's real but it's not an inherently desirable thing. I know I called it a spook but that's just for meme value, not what I really think. Now get mad at me for memeing on /his/ where we're only supposed to have serious discussions while you could have chosen to focus on all of the non-meme parts of my post but didn't.

>>103271036
Brain drain is a very valid concern. All the doctors I visit in Australia seem to be Iraqi or whatever else outside of city hospitals. Meanwhile students have to bust their asses absurdly hard to earn the privilege of studying medicine. Our government spends money taking in doctors rather than training our own. Surely the money's around somewhere to do it the proper way.

>>103271000
>low income immigrants rarely pay more more in tax than they receive from social welfare, also putting a strain on resources
This is true you fucking spastic

>>103271039
>I know I called it a spook but that's just for meme value, not what I really think.
then don't call it a spook.

>>103271032
>What's the use of giving OP debating points if the points are retarded and don't stand up to any criticism?

Ok let's see how those posts provided well thought-out critiques of some of the suggested arguments, enough to show that they wouldn't be useful statements arguing CON in a competitive debate...

>What a load of complete bullshit
>Again, complete bullshit that is completely unfounded in reality, most immigrants don't want more immigrants from far left or islamic devices in the context of the US, Australia and UK [CITATION NEEDED]
>You're a complete pseud but commercial ethics and common sense promotes the idea that skilled immigrants probably have a better skillset than a homeless person
>yeah, because the immigrants from the other side of the world have the same skills as the hobo on your doorstep. retard.

Yeah they really destroyed those retarded points with their facts and evidence.

>You're projecting.

Nice meme.

>>103271041
it's a meme you dip

>>103271008
Most education from inmigrant countries is lower than some tradies.Allowing Bangladeshi """engineers""" do anything in any ountry is outright suicide

File: 1432400920050.png (244KB, 996x832px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 996x832px

>>103271043
Only serious discussions please.

>>103271044
yeah, which is why they are hired based off their previous work experiences.
A bangladeshi "engineer" who has worked in an oil company as a reservoir engineer is going to be an attractive prospect compared to billybob the jetpump operator.

>>103271042
>Implying those aren't entirely reasonable counterpoints which don't destroy the original argument
>He complains about a lack of facts and evidence when providing absolutely none of his own

Even then, it's a debate anon not a peer reviewed study. Logic, reasoning, and rhetoric are more important than statistics on top of statistics.

>>103271047
yeah, logic, backed by facts of which statistics are an important part of a debate.

>>103271045
Okay then what do you think about the rest of my original post? Do you also think that economic hysteria has humanity on the tracks towards destruction and that the powers that be are ruthlessly shutting down anybody who even looks at the brake lever?

>>103271042
You're ignoring

>You might as well argue that capitalism is unsustainable and we should all go commie.

Presumably because that's a really valid point.

>>103271046
>which is why they are hired based off their previous work experiences
But they don't as experienced engenieers actually demand money. The amount of indian code monkeys and """engenieers""" in the US is scary

>>103271036
>>103271039
the reason that the brain drain is occuring is because the home countries of immigrants aren't granting them the opportunity to excel in their home countries.

>>103271048
Not necessarily.

It's nice if you have some but they're by no means essential. It's a demonstration of rhetorical ability, not a method of finding the objectively correct answer, anon.

>>103271051
and its because US codemonkeys aren't up to par. To get an H1B visa you need to be paid at least the same amount as your american counterpart.

I get it, burgers get buttfrustrated that people are doing the work just as well as them for a fraction of the price but they really need to git gud.

>>103271048
>>103271053
Not that your original point was correct in any way, but hey ho.

>>103270992
With mass immigration, the labour pool is effectively unlimited. Wages stagnate or fall in real terms. Companies use this cheap labour to hit record profit and the economy grows, but this growth isn't actually good for 99% of the people. Be sure to drop in "trickle-down economics" when explaining this to get lefties on side.

You could also go for "economic growth as a goal is destroying the environment" and "brain drain is hobbling third-world countries".

>>103271053
yes, and facts should play the primary role in a debate that requires a look at the facts. Rhetoric and reasoning should stem from facts, not the other way around.
but I guess I am a stem autist.

>>103270992
>to increase economic growth
worked out like a charm in germany
quote of vice ch. Siegmar Gabriel
"most can't read or write nor want to learn it, most don't want to work, it was a failure and now we have to shoulder the consiquences"

>The economic growth due inmigration would ultimatly end on the inmigrants themselfs.
>Inmigrant children lower the education standards as it can be observed in the PISA report.
>Inmigrants raise real state prices forcing people to share apartments in the mid 30's (London as an example).
>Inmigrants increase crime and rape (Sweden or any western country for that matter)
>Ghettification of cities (Malmö)
>Inmigrants recieve more money than they contribute to the tax payer system

>>103271047
>Logic, reasoning, and rhetoric are more important than statistics on top of statistics.

That's exactly the point I'm making (and have made repeatedly). The original poster posted a list of potential statements to use in an argument. Then those that replied to him got mad and called him a retard over and over because they were triggered by the points themselves, bot because they believed they would be too weak and/or easy to counter-argue in a debate. I commented on this because honestly it's really funny.

>>103271050
>You're ignoring
>You might as well argue that capitalism is unsustainable and we should all go commie.
>Presumably because that's a really valid point.

I missed it because its posted after my first post, but yeah it is no more valid than the others. There is no actual challenge to the statement's value, just some extremely nebulous meming that has no connection to the statement suggested.

>>103271048
People decide who they prefer on an emotional/unconscious level, then engage their rational mind to justify this decision retroactively. Logic, facts and stats are useful insofar as they help people convince themselves, but the core of your argument needs to be emotional.

>>103271054
>To get an H1B visa you need to be paid at least the same amount as your american counterpart.
But you can pimp a poo in loo to force him to never ask for a raise while a citizen has the flexibility to ask for a raise. You are just looking at the surface

>>103271059
>Inmigrants increase crime and rape (Sweden or any western country for that matter)
prime example :
>oslo managed to have a 100% of rape committed by non-norwegians year
and ofc 90% of victims were norwegians
citation for anyone who can read norwegian
https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale_vedlegg/oslo/Vedlegg_1309.pdf

>>103271063
>oslo managed to have a 100% rape committed by non-norwegians year
Something nice to take from this is that the Oslo natives appear to be very civil and benign people.

>>103271057
So then why is he complaining about people asking him to provide his facts?

>>103271062
Most Poo in loos work for years in India before coming to the states for a limited period of around 2 years before returning home. They get a big fat pay raise in dollars for the duration and that's it.

>citizen has the flexibility
so does the poo in loo. I bet you don't know that your contract is scruitinized before they grant you the H1B visa and give you your plane tickets to new jersey or the silicon valley. A poo can easily sue his employers if they keep him on a minimum level salary for years on end and it would be violating the terms of the agreement that the employer has made with the US department of state.

>>103271064
or that the rape committed by them isn't reported due to being so rare
either way
they pretty much lived together in harmony but everything changed when the peaceful immigrants "visited"

>>103271060
>The original poster posted a list of potential statements to use in an argument

Yes, and they'd don't stand up to scrutiny. This can clearly been see by how you got butthurt and started going off about "h-hehe, I guess y-you guys g-got triggered!"

>>103271066
>If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer.
If the company just fires him the Poo may be deported in a matter of days if he can't find another work.It is extremelly easy to pimp a person with HB1 VISA

>>103271060
>I missed it because its posted after my first post, but yeah it is no more valid than the others. There is no actual challenge to the statement's value, just some extremely nebulous meming that has no connection to the statement suggested

Objectively incorrect. He clearly pointed out how the supposedly "unsustainable" situation you argued "mass immigration" would lead to is actually no different from the normal state of affairs.

>>103271060

>let me put a completely wrong statement that will harm my position in a debate
>others call me out on it
>"Lol, Triggered xD"

>>103271069
>just fires him
and gives him a huge amount of severance pay.
The poo goes back to india, finds work in another company and repeats the process all over again and comes out ahead by a lot of money.

Face it. If americans were so good, there would be no need for Poos working on H1B visas in america for comparable salaries to their american counterparts.

>>103271072
>and gives him a huge amount of severance pay
>US severance packages
>Huge
kek.HB1 has the same severance than American workers which is tiny

>>103271073
its big when you get it in ameribux and convert it into rupees.

File: d45.jpg (266KB, 1440x1080px) Image search: [Google]

266KB, 1440x1080px

>>103271072
>It's another "Americans unquestioningly believe they are the best at everything and then get assblasted when anyone challenges their worldview" episode

>>103270992

I'm under the impression that most people here are retards who misunderstood question.

It's about the relation between immigration and US economic growth, not about social problems immigration can cause.

As it was said you can either criticize the following assumption:
1) More people = More wealth
2) Economic growth = Good

Not an easy thing to do since those assumptions belong to most political parties, and most economists.

>>103271074
But then it is cheap for th company to hire poos.Especially the ones that want to become citizens at some point

>>103271077
most poos just want to go home. The ones that immigrate to america are still largely the ones who get long term jobs in the states and eventually apply for a green card because they have been residing there for 5+ years.

>>103271076
>It's about the relation between immigration and US economic growth
No it is not.
>“The U.S. federal government should increase immigration to promote greater U.S. economic growth.”
You can argue about why the small increase in GDP really doesn't benefit the general population

>>103271078
>most poos just want to go home.
And? Even if that was true it is a viable option for tech companies to pimp them to get cheap labour

>>103271079
>general population
depends on what you mean. Ameriburgers who don't want to adapt to a shifting economy and want to get high paying jobs out of high school but also want the cheap gibsmedats that the global economy brings them are hypocritical.

>>103271020
>we're just going to expand until there are 50 billion people on Earth our great-grandchildren will have science so they'll be fine
Space


The final frontier

>>103271080
>even if it was true
>I truly believe every poo wants to immigrate to america.

>cheap labor
its comparable to american labor retard. They wouldn't get visas in the first place otherwise. You get marginally cheaper workers who already have enough experience in their field from working codemonkey jobs in india. They aren't being exploited.
The only people who get buttfrustrated are the college kids who didn't build their portfolio and their two internships in their local insurance company's jobs during the summer aren't up to par as a poo's 4+ years of working as a full time IT professional in the same company that sponsors their visas.

>>103271034
Well, yes. It's not a great idea to bring in even more though, is it? I'm sure w can figure out something to do about the ones we already have that is less.... genocide-y.

>>103271084
Yeah, but by same token they're really not going to change much.

>>103271081
>depends on what you mean. Ameriburgers who don't want to adapt to a shifting economy and want to get high paying jobs out of high school but also want the cheap gibsmedats that the global economy brings them are hypocritical.
No one was talking about manufacturing in the first place. How does it benefit the population that the prices of urban areas skyrocket to the point that you have to share a flat with 3 people at your 30's? How does it benefit the American people that the education of your kids is absolutly garbage due inmigrant kids? How does it benefit the American people the ghettification of their cities? How does it benefit the american people the increase of crime and insecurity? How does it benefit the american people that all the economic growth ends up exclusively on inmigrants? How does it benefit the American people that the HS expending increases at a higher rate than revenue leading to higher taxes to pay for the healthcare of poor migrants?

>>103271075
what?
I argued just the opposite.
Burgers think that every one of them is a steve wozniak or a Carmack

>>103271083
>its comparable to american labor retard
It isn't as they barely ask for a raise. They get paid as much as people that have come out of college

>>103271082
I want to believe but I don't see it happening. Imagine the kind of space-colonization numbers we'd need to make a difference. The best-case scenario of space-colonization that I see having even a 1/1000000 chance of happening is that we find a planet we can live on and get a decent population of a few million there. Then that planet becomes a massive food-bowl and is oppressed for the sake of keeping Earth from starving to death until we control enough planets that food and land aren't problems. Anybody else ever see that show Fang of the Sun Dougram?

>>103271089
>I want to believe but I don't see it happening
Believe harder you fucking pussy

>>103271090
I'm not a STEM-autist so my belief won't help for much. If I somehow become Prime Minister of Australia I'll devote some resources to space stuff though.

>>103271086
>kids is absolute garbage due to immigrant kids.
That has more to do with school reforms and americans refusing to overhaul their education system.
>ghettoification of their cities.
>skyrocketing prices of real estate in cities.
because the middle class had a huge amount of money and decided to invest in property because it is a good nest egg to invest in?
>economic growth ends up being used exclusively on immigrants?
So economic growth is benefitting the richest people in america and the illegal immigrants at the same time? Despite wealth disparity being glaringly high?

>>103271088
>they barely ask for a raise.
>they get paid for as much as people coming out of college.
Maybe just maybe american college kids shouldn't be so entitled to a pay raise straight out of college? especially if they have to compete with indians who already have more experience than their american counterparts and work for relatively less money?

>>103271092
>That has more to do with school reforms and americans refusing to overhaul their education system.
No it doesn't. From the PISA report it can be seen that inmigrant kids are slowing down native kids. Also some reforms were passed due the increase of inmigrant kids.
>because the middle class had a huge amount of money and decided to invest in property because it is a good nest egg to invest in?
Investing in property alone don't lead to this huge spikes in property prices.On the other hand an exponential increase of the population does.
>So economic growth is benefitting the richest people in america and the illegal immigrants at the same time? Despite wealth disparity being glaringly high?
Yes. As the overall wealth of migrants is extremelly low so any job for them suppose an increase of their wealth. Wages have been stagnant for the last couple of years mainly due a huge surplux in the labour force
>>103271093
So now you are admitting that tech companies just want cheap workers? See I was right all along

>>103271094
>So now you are admitting that tech companies just want cheap workers? See I was right all along
>cheap workers
Cheap workers that are just as good as their american counterparts. Americans conveniently forget that part. If they work just as well as you for MARGINALLY lower wages, they are going to get hired in lieu of fresh college graduates.

Indian codemonkeys in america aren't working for peanuts during their stay in the states. They are working on industry standard wages and come with better skills and work experience for their jobs. this is what the /g/entlemen forget with their cherrypicked examples of Pajeet the incompetent coder.

>>103271095
>They are working on industry standard wages
They aren't as you just admitted.Payet should be earning 160k $ with his years of experience and he ends up earning 80k$ as a freshman

>>103271096
>160K
>for a codemonkey job
kek.
If pajeet is working in the oil industry or something like an actual project lead, he would be getting that amount of money.

When Pajeet works as a codemonkey, he gets paid like one, and he has the experience to out compete Jake who was doing everclear jello shots during frat parties.

>>103271097
>If pajeet is working in the oil industry or something like an actual project lead, he would be getting that amount of money.
In the valley 160k is an average salary for someone with 15 years of experience

>>103271098
pajeets with 15 years of experience in the IT industry immigrate to the US with pajeet jr and Pajeeta when they get a job there.

>>103271099
Is this supposed to prove something?

>>103271021
>/his/ is my SJW hugbox
leftypol logic

>>103271100
the fact that pajeets with 15 years of experience get paid the same as their american counterparts in america, while pajeets with 5 get similar salaries as their american counterparts.

>>103271101
>talk bullshit
>get called out on it.
>"LEFTIES REEE"

>>103270992

One simple case is how the unions suffer when they are undercut by cheap labor. Enforced union membership isn't going to work either. A simple supply and demand point is all tat is needed.

>>103271213
They're not talking about union labor. They're talking about skilled immigrants to fill the STEM jobs the NEETs here say they're qualified for and can't understand why Google won't accept their degree from DeVry.

>>103271852
>The burger pajeet.
Now everything makes sense