Been meaning to order some sam splints for use in my pack. They're not the most ideal form of splint, but the flexibility makes for easy storage and versatility in molding into shape for various body parts.
>>655140 >Big first aid kits are for boats, vehicles, airplanes, EMTs, school buses, restaurant kitchens, workplaces, summer camps, expeditions and other large groups ftfy
>Roller gauze, tape, shears, and a couple of band aids for the small stuff is all you need. And tweezers, and antiseptic, and moleskin or something similar for blisters, and vet wrap or an elastic bandage, and maybe some ibuprofen and benadryl and imodium.
>>655140 I carry a little more, but I'm a paramedic, and responsible for the first aid of the 5 guys I regularly backpack with. You really don't need a whole lot.
I used mine my last trip out. Was breaking sticks for kindling, and a stick snapped wrong and cut open my hand pretty good. Was able to use antibiotic wipes to clean it, some ointment and a large band aid. Since we were out in the wet, and hauling around wood, it would have been easy for it to get infected and not heal well. Since I had a first aid kit, it's healing fine.
That's what a first aid kit is for. For making small injuries easier to deal with. Rarely, if ever, can you ever save a life from a first aid kit.
>>655556 Basically yeah. They can help other minor stuff, but cuts, blisters, burns... that's what they work best for.
Honestly though if you're out for a few days and cut your finger, and have no way to clean it, and keep it clean with bandages, you can get a pretty nasty infection in a hurry. People have lost limbs from bad infections while /out/, and you can become septic and die if it's bad enough.
Mostly though, just is nice to patch up your finger so it doesn't annoy you the rest of the trip.
>>656685 RN here. You don't need many alcohol wipes. They shouldn't be used for cleaning wounds if you have antibiotic wipes/gel. Your biggest use will be cleaning instruments (knives/scissors). You don't really need iodine wipes if you can have antibiotic wipes also. Iodine has less uses for you here.
For antibiotics creams I suggest triple antibiotic (neosporin) or bacitracin. If you can get some in health care we have tiny packet roughly single/double use should cut down on space well.
Tl;dr: bring bacitracin or triple abx. Drop the iodine. Just a little alcohol for tools. Clean wounds with clean water only (boil that shit).
I inherited a army field medic kit. it was missing the cool shit like morphine and suture kits, but i added my own medication like Ib800s some muscle relaxers some vicodin and antihistamines. Also shit like 100% grain alcohol and tobacco for stings. i suppose i could take an expanded image if you wanted to see it.
>>656771 Np here. Good advice, always nice to have a syringe to get pressure behind the water or saline you are using to cleanse the wound. Dirty cuts (which you will mostly sustain while /out/) can always benefit from betadyne being mixed in with the saline. Pretty easy to make saline before you go out or as needed. It's half a teaspoon or 2g of salt per cup of water to make an isotonic saline. Which would be about 4 salt packets if you grab them from a restaurant. Boiling the water first would be the important part if you don't have access to anything else. And putting on a triple abx cream right away with some coverage like a bandaid
>>655568 Dealing with a deeper cut is not much different besides stopping the bleeding first. You'll still bandage it up. If it's deep enough though, you should be heading back to civilization to get it cleaned out and sutured.
>>656995 If the kit did have morphine, you'd be carrying a schedule 1 narcotic without a prescription, which can get you in pretty serious trouble.
If you don't have training in how to use an IV, done even attempt it. You also need to check expiration dates on all that stuff, the saline expires, as do the IV catheters. You can seriously mess yourself up if you do an IV wrong. You can even die from it, so don't try it.
Meds can help a lot for their weight. Treat allergic reactions, rashes, nausea, diarrhea, pain, fatigue, insomnia, even get treament started for a a heart attack (aspirin). Can't really substitute/improvise for meds either.
Tools are also hard to substitute for. Needle nose tweezers I think are the most important thing in a FAK. An irrigation device like a 2oz contact lense solution bottle is great for irrigation which is by far the most important part of minor soft tissue wound management in the field.
>>656958 >betadyne being mixed in with the saline.
Current recommendations are not to do this actually. Saline or potable water are fine. Clear running stream water even.
The thought is that any additives to the solution can irritate the exposed tissue, kill more neutrophils and immune cells more than pathogens and impair the natural wound response/healing. The light hydrostatic pressure and flowing water alone are what remove bacteria and do everything irrigation is meant for.
>>656771 Good advice for using alcohol wipes on tools, not tissue. Bacitracian cream is in my EDC first aid kit for cuts and thorns. It goes a long way to prevent an infection. >>657355 Fine tip syringes are cheap, lightweight, and hard to improvise.
>>657785 Quickclot is a bitch for the hospital later. Each granule has to be removed by hand. It's designed for gunshot wounds in the field, it's unnecessary for most situations and will require a later trip to hospital when used.
>>658612 I would recommend that most people carry alcohol swabs for tools. I use my pocket knife for quite a bit. Sometimes it's cutting out a splinter and sometimes it's cutting cheese. It takes 5 seconds to clean a tool and at the end you have tinder. Alcohol should not be used for cleaning wounds. Cleaning a site before removing a splinter? Yes. In a wound? Never.
For a syringe I like the 10ml saline syringes. They are plentiful and easy to reuse. They put some good pressure out to clean a wound.
Knowing how to use a tourniquet correctly is far more valuable than quick clot. Keep it simple. A good belt can be a tourniquet or part of a splint for example.
>>657765 This is what I use, I havent had any trouble getting to my gear. It's not waterproof though, water-resistant. I keep everything in individual bags, it actually makes it easier to get to imo. The only thing about the mesh is if you carry scissors or tweezers in there they can get caught on it sometimes. It's not a huge bag so it's perfect for hiking and you can stow a surprising amount of stuff in it. The bag is high quality though, like pretty much everything 5.11 makes.
>>658915 Though there are some places that haven't stopped selling the old kind (It should be past its expiration date by now regardless) Quickclot no longer makes the granulated Zeolite version. Its now kaolin based and involves regular sterile gauze impregnated with the chemical compound. Much, much easier to both apply and remove.
Anyone ever got injured semi-bad to bad when /out/? >be me >2 days ago >skiing onna black diamond >face first into other skier >ski edges are edgy (and sharp) >cut right through my skiing pants, thermo underwear, (thick) sock, skin, fat layer (about a 16th of an inch apparently) (assuming thats what the yellow stuff was) and a bunch of muscle before stopping at the bone of my shin >cut is about an inch wide, opens up about 3/8 because skin is tight on the shin >buddy has FAK >desinfect, gauze pad, tape, done >get my ass to a doctor in the nearest town >6 stitches >lol painkiller meds
>oh shit, massive medicare bill incoming >oh wait this is europe >hand in to insurance, aint got to deal with shit
anyway, moral of the story >big ass would which woulda caused a lot of blood loss probably >FAK the size of my fist >fix'd >>655140 >Big first aid kits are a meme.
I'm naturally paranoid and usually prepare for absolute worst case scenarios, so I'm imagining a situation where material for an improvised splint would be unavailable, or perhaps you're critically injured and immobilized and simply can't gather it
>>661415 And die of sepsis rather quickly. A used t-shirt can be used at first, but you had better have something sterile to press against that wound and bandage in place once a clot forms. Sterile ABD pads are not terribly heavy, bulky or expensive, so you really have no excuse not to carry some.
>>662698 I like them for making working splints or stabilizing wrists, radius/ulna fractures, or elbow injuries. For extended trips I like to have at least two in the group. I source mine at work, though, so I don't pay the full $40.
>>663117 Given that I am friends with some of the medics that used it, I am well aware of Xstat. Its even made in my state, about 20 mins South of where I am sitting right now. It's neat stuff, but I am fairly certain it will be considered a medical device and be heinously expensive.
>>662227 anybody that knows what the fuck they are talking about? A single ABD pad belongs in any halfway decent first aid kit.
Bare Bones Widlerness first aid kit would have the following items
2 sterile 4x4 gauze 1 Sterile ABD 1 2"cohesive bandage roll 1" cloth tape 1 3" Sterile gauze roll packet of bandaids packet of moleskin splinter tweezers antihistamines antidiarrheals painkiller of choice whatever you think will be best for cleaning a wound, current literature varies. probably an antibiotic ointment of some kind, though studies vary on effectiveness, most of them were conducted in nice clean hospitals, not the outdoors.
I would feel pretty OK with just the above if dealing with myself in the outdoors. I would scale it up 1x for each person in your group.
A good first aid kit is not something you skimp on. Its not an inconvenience or useless weight. It is definitely not something you apply ultralight backpacking principles to (beyond reason, of course.) Its like paying for insurance: sure, you probably will never need it and many people drive around without it, but you are fucked if you need it and don't have it.
>blue force gear pouch >israeli bandage >2 5x9 abdominal pads >5 4x4 gauze >4 3x4 gauze >naso airway >cat tourniquet >halo chest seals >moleskin sheets >teflon emt shears (tied to "holster" pouch for the insert) >2 pairs nitrile gloves >1" roll tape
In my pocket I have one of those little bullshit deck of card sized white plastic bandage cases packed with butterflies and random bandaids
Anybody have any recommendations as to what one should carry when /out/ camping in terms of medicine? All I have is a travel vial of advil because my system's pretty strong but I'm starting to go /out/ and innawoods with guests more often.
>>664080 >Alcohol v Iodine swabs >Is one preferable to the other?
Alcohol is nice for sterilizing instruments because it evaporates and doesn't leave residues/stains. But mainly only instruments for skin procedures that don't enter joints or the CNS since it only reliably kills bacteria. Not spores, viruses, fungi, protozoa. It's used in healthcare a lot for injections and IVs because it avoids staining things/people or obscuring a vein you're trying to cannulate. It's also hypoallergenic and supposedly vasodilates veins somewhat.
Iodine is a strong sterilizer and will kill bacterial spores, viruses, fungi, protozoa, anything but prions. It's the least irritating of the skin disinfectants that can kill everything and it doesn't evaporate quickly, which is good for prepping skin for higher risk procedures like lumbar punctures, joint injections, foley catheters, surgeries. It does leave a strong stain though and some people are allergic to iodine.
desu not much use for either one unless you have instruments for suturing and foreign body removal. In those cases the procedure is only semi-sterile anyway to begin with and alcohol would be fine. The paper packets do get worn open and dry out easily though so you have to stay on top of replacing them every few trips.
>>664041 Shears Tweezers/tick puller 10cc syringe for irrigation Roll gauze 4x4 several of each 3x3 " 2x2 " ABD pads Ibuprofen Excedrin (I get headaches sometimes) Benadryl Peptobismol tabs Iodine wipes Alcohol wipes Antibiotic cream Band aids Steri strips Triangle bandage Tape
Most of it is very small. Don't stress first aid while /out/. It's just about making small injuries easier to deal with. If someone is actually hurt, youre not treating it in the wild, your main focus will be getting to definitive care in a hospital.
Someone said ABD pads are worthless. I carry small ones, and it's really just to cover a wound that's long, irregular, or bleeding is hard to control. The extra thickness of them helps put pressure down when they're taped correctly.
>>655043 I need to make a new kit. The BSA manual has a great kit that fits in a quart ziploc bag. That's what I plan to use. I carry some bandaids, butterfly closures, and wet wipes in a small box in my bag every day. I need to get a small tube of neosporin for it instead of all the alcohol wipes my wife threw in there. Also bandaids in the wallet errday.
>>664120 shears to cut away clothing to better access a wound. I had a friend accidentally kick a cactus and it was easier to cut off his jean leg at the knee than trying to lift the pant off around the spines
are you really questioning why I want gloves if I'm dealing with a bloody wound?
>>663913 But is it a medical device? As in "do I need authorization from an EMS service Medical Controller or equivilent to buy it? Given that I won't spend the 50 bucks on a pack of combatgauze, I don't think I'm going to shell out 100-150 for something that is admittedly amazing at what it does, but less versatile and unlikely to be used.
>>655067 There is a tape we can get here called fortlast , it's the best first aid tape ever, couple of layers and its nice and rigid , stickiest shit ever as well >>655140 I'd throw in a couple of dressings , betadine for cleaning wounds, a good ointment like germolene, an antihistamine, few aspirin, tweezers, shears and alcohol wipes for cleaning them as well , a lot of stuff can be improvised , splints , tourniquet , etc >>657849 I have quickclot , said why not throw it in my pack because it's so lightweight >>660003 I wouldn't go that lightweight on it , that's just me though I like b ing prepared for shit , was a reserve army medic and used to have to carry all kinds of shit. Trall, oxygen. Full airway management kit , shit loads of field dressing , saline , lots of diagnostic shit , list would go on forever.. so what I do carry feels pretty basic to me
>>668630 >Tweezers Remove Ticks, Splinters, and debris from wounds >Duct tape or moleskin or leukotape All can be used on blisters but duct tape has many uses >Lip Balm Bleeding Lips suck >Ibuprofin, Bennadryl, Imodium Reduce your fever, allergic reaction, and diarrhea >Basic Sewing Kit Sew your ass back together >Iodine Sterilize area around wound, water treatment >Flask of Vodka Poor it in a deep wound or drink it
Nobody pulls out sterilize wipes and shit. Use belt as Tourniquet or sling. Cut your shirt apart, douse in vodka, let dry, then tape over wounds as bandages. Make a splint with a sick and duct tape. Don't be a pussy and bring more then you need.
>>668630 Here is my simple first aid kit for thorns, rippers, splinters, and blisters. >Safety pins >antibacterial ointment >large bandaids >ibuprofen >splinter pickers >white waterproof tape This is all I carry at work. I wrap the dressed area with tape to make it more durable.
Here is a list of items difficult improvise. I take this in addition to my small kit. (1) Nitrile gloves - One pair per person in the group. They are for handling the victim in case of a large serious open wound, or compound fracture. (2) Splinter pickers - If you are in the least uncertain which ones to get, read the reviews to find the best. Splinters and prickers are common, it makes a difference. I would add a small magnifying glass to this category as well. It lets you see how the splinter entered, and alows you to clean it out completely if it breaks in half. (3) 1 inch wide cloth tape (4) Second Skin pads by Spenco - When a blister is torn, bleeding, and burning, placing one of these over the area, will make the hobble back to the car less memorable. (5) Tincture of benzoine - Applied to skin, it allows wound dressing to adhere better and last longer. Used in a "hot shot" to treat a blister. (6) Betadine swabs - Dowsed with water, they provide a level of protection against infection in and around an open wound. Good for removing large material like gravel. (7) Large and medium wound dressing pads - Sterile of course (8) Notepad and pencil - (Not a pen, it will fail) Recording events and symptoms relating to the victim. Indispensable for when the EMT arrives. It is critical to mention the time with each entry. (9) Ace bandage (10) Plastic syringe - Used to flush wounds with disinfected water. (Optional) Full size Sam Splint - These are great for immobilizing and padding the area around a fracture. Full size ones can do more, wrap it securely if you're hiking out (under your own power or not). Two of them are used to stabalize a knee injury. Pieces can be cut for finger injuries. (Optional) Pain medication. Think morphine strength. Talk to your doctor and explain the hazards you face on a normal hike.
Eye injuries are common. I carry a compact mirror and use the point of a handkerchief to remove foriegn objects like bugs. Safety glasses help when your bushwacking. The ideal minimum number for a hiking party is 4. One to stay behind with the injured, and two to go for help. Everyone needs to carry a whistle. Cell phones don't always work. Don't leave it behind.
Learn how to make a stretcher, or even one you can drag. Arms can be used as a seat if 2 people interlock their wrists. Learn how to treat someone properly for shock. You might be treating yourself. Should I continue? Compound fractures are aweful.
Can I get some outside insight on a recent injury?
>jumped over a stream with a heavy pack >hurt knee on landing, walked it off on the day >a few days later it still hurts when I walk >hurts when I'm lifting my knee, fine when it's got pressure on it >scared for my future in case I've seriously fucked it up
Should I give it a bit longer before I start panicking? I'm not above going to the doctors about it either.
>>669285 It kills tissue needed to heal a wound. Irrigate with sterilized water, clean the area, and use bacitracian ointment to prevent infection. Peroxide should only be used around a wound, and you might as well use alcohol. Benzoine compound tincture contains alcohol.
>>669285 Peroxide is dangerous shit, man. I spent a lot of time in soil labs back at uni so I've seen what concentrated stuff can do to organics. I wouldn't want it anywhere in my bag, let alone near a wound apart from in dire straits.
>>669218 Probably a ligament strain, MCL or ACL are common. Ligaments take longer to heal than muscle fiber. Take a 3 day run of ibuprofen, if you aren't allergic, 400-800mg every 4 hours and rest it. No heavy lifting, running, or moderate/high impact sports. The only way to repair these is to let them heal through progressive physiotherapy or surgery. You probably don't need surgery, but you will if you push it too hard too fast. Swimming and cycling are good ways to rehab it, so is some light work with a length of thera-band.
A strong and stable core is important to avoid re-injury.
>>669218 >>jumped over a stream with a heavy pack >>hurt knee on landing, walked it off on the day >>a few days later it still hurts when I walk >>hurts when I'm lifting my knee, fine when it's got pressure on it >>scared for my future in case I've seriously fucked it up >Should I give it a bit longer before I start panicking? I'm not above going to the doctors about it either.
Hard to tell from your description of the injury. How did you land? Where does it hurt? Any clicking, popping, when you bend it? If it's anything it may be a small tear to your meniscus. Surgical repair can be pretty effective in some cases.
>>670526 I landed with my whole weight on the one knee, it didn't hurt directly on impact but when I started to carry on walking it felt like I was dragging my leg forward rather than lifting it, even though I was walking normally. I don't think I heard any clicks or pops at the time and it just aches a little to walk now, no popping either.
Fuck, I really hope it doesn't need surgery. I've got the glory of the NHS if I do, but a friend of mine fucked up his knee whilst hiking and surgery has just caused more complications.
>>670555 If you don't have a regular training routine, get one. Don't just go lift, cycle/swim/circuit training is essential. Make sure you don't neglect your core muscles. If you can find a TRX program, do it.
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