At what point does an album become acclaimed enough that you don't "get" it instead of you don't "like" it, when it becomes so acclaimed that you simply can't dismiss the album as "bad". But the fault is with the listener instead, for not "getting" it.
I think pic related has definitely achieved this
while it is obviously ok to not like an acclaimed album, I just find it interesting that many albums have like the force field that makes them immune to criticism.
For example when people talk about radiohead albums like Kid A, they will express their distaste for the album, but then add on something like "but that's just me, I guess I don't get it". I just find it interesting that some albums have this effect on people, and other albums are beginning to develop it as well.
An example of an album that I think is already there -> Bob Dylan - Blonde On Blonde
An example of an album that I think is getting there -> The Books - Lemon of Pink
Dude wow very similar situation here. I listened to it once maybe three years ago and found nothing of value. Then I was stoned and sleepy one night, put that on, and I just couldn't believe my ears. Fantastic music.
Wait a year or two, senpai.
I'm not talking about popular opinion, saying taylor swift is a mediocre artist is arguable, saying Belle & Sebastian is a mediocre artist makes you sound like a retard. Whatever forces at work here that protects B&S from criticism is what I'm talking about.
age isn't a factor at all, when I'm 50 years old, still struggling with Unwound, I still don't "get" the album. Being older doesn't mean you can just brush off critical consensus, not at least TRYING to understand why you don't "get" an acclaimed album is lazy and irresponsible as a music listener to be honest.
that's probably because it isn't over a 7/10, and most of the people who claim it's the best album ever haven't listened to anything more "out-there" than space rock punctuated by sound effects.
I do know what they hear. They hear what is relative to them. To people who haven't heard a lot of music, it's the greatest thing they've heard. It was for me when I had only hear maybe 50 albums as a teen. Now that I've heard over 4000, I understand that really it's not that amazing.
To answer your question, it's not necessarily subjective, but relative.
Critical consensus means very little. At best it's a helpful pointer towards music that might be good. Music, films and so on get good reviews for so many shitty reasons - trends, politics, etc.
I don't get Animal Collective. I understand that they have a large following and are some of the biggest indie darlings but I can't see any of the appeal. It all sounds sickeningly sweet and cartoonish to the point that I don't understand why people would write music like this. I listen to bands like Deerhoof, Black Moth Super Rainbow, anamanaguchi and Grimes among others so I can handle some sweetness in my music but AC is like trying to eat pure sugar from the bag with a spoon and washing it down with 4loko. Will I never be patrician senpai-a-lama-ding-dong?
there's a fine distinction between a listener not trying hard enough to understand something they're unfamiliar with, and just not having an affinity for it. this all presupposes there's something there to get, though.
lots of times, half-educated music fans will claim something is in a piece of music that either doesn't deserve the amount of time required to "get" what's there, or isn't there at all.
ultimately, it's about how much permission you give others to allow you to feel insecure in your taste. if you just got into music last year, it's probably a good idea to keep an open mind. but after a while you'll be able to recognize what it is that you enjoy in music without any outside input: just your own appraisal of the thing.
if you don't like something, no amount of special pleading, hype, or mass acceptance will make you like it - until you have your own reasons for coming around to it.
>I don't understand why people would write music like this
Do you really struggle to see the appeal of songs like Who Could Win A Rabbit, Water Curses, Alvin Row or New Town Burnout? To me it's such effortlessly enjoyable music.
For lack of a better term, I just find it boring, 73 minutes of boring and I JUST DONT GET IT.
This is honestly the laziest excuse as a music listener, this is the type of mentality that a breaking Benjamin fan would use...
The difference lies on how unorthodox the release is, in my opinion.
Like, an AC/DC album like Black Ice is acclaimed in many music circles. But there's not much to "get" in it, so I say I don't "like" it.
You can also "like" something without "getting" it, or vice versa. Each is its own concept, but they are not mutually exclusive.
Holy shit, this actually made a lot of sense
But can you train your ears to like more sounds and styles??
As a Joanna fan I sometimes think its really sad that a significant amount of /mu/ can't get into her just because of her voice
I'm obviously dramatizing it, but I genuinely can't get over her voice. I don't understand how not enjoying music because I think it's unpleasant/annoying to listen to is a lazy excuse. I don't enjoy the sounds of the piece of art that is expressed through sound, so clearly that makes me lazy.
If someone I know has a very large and varied taste in music and says something I think is great such as Joanna newsom is bad not their thing or even they don't get it i'll bust their balls and think they're plebs but i'll atleast respect them. If someone who hardly ever listens to music calls one of the most critically acclaimed album bad i'll think they're shit.
Guys, help me out with Ys here. I absolutely adore the first two tracks, Emily and Monkey & Bear. I know all the melodies and harp parts and vocal quirks and crescendos, the whole thing, for those first two tracks. Once Sawdust & Diamonds comes on, I start to lose interest, during Only Skin I really tune out, and during Cosmia I just want to turn the thing off.
This is coming from a pretty huge Joanna Newsom fan; HOOM is a sublime masterpiece and Divers was my AOTY.
I agree with this sentiment, but I believe that closing yourself to outside input can lead to stagnation and might make you too close minded. After all, music is all about letting outside thoughts reach you and then interpreting them.
Not saying that you should be insecure of your taste, just that after a while you need to start reflecting on other's opinions of music, and then comparing them to your thoughts on that particular artist or song; or even how the thoughts of others might affect your listening experience.
Sometimes, after reading other's input I've managed to get more out of some albums. Still, if I strongly dislike a certain release it'll be hard to get me to like it; but I might gain a little more understanding of it after reading about it.
To add to my fan-ness, I just saw her in December and it was incredible, absolutely astounding. If anyone has the chance to see her, do yourself a favor and go.
>Still struggling with mid-back half of Ys, though
I always though MEM was Joanna's most innocent album. Ys was a big step up not only sonically but (as much as I hate to use the word) aesthetically. There's something very mythical about Ys that I don't really know how to otherwise describe. HOOM is the one I've had the most trouble with, I think there is some inconsistency in track quality. Finally, Divers is neither her most mature nor ambitious album, she doesn't try anything too different from what has proven to word before. however the thing about Divers is that I think its by far Joanna's catchiest and most accessible album.
What AnCo albums have you listened to?
I would call myself an anco fan and the only one I can see being super sickeningly sweet is SJ, but that's cause that's the aesthetic they're going for (hence the title)
absolutely you can learn to hear things you just couldn't hear before, just by spending time with it, or listening to lots of music in a given style.
that said people need to feel like there's a good reason to spend the necessary time getting used to something many would at first listen just find too abrasive or annoying.
example: sometimes artists add some dissonance, which could be compared to "savory" flavors. some people will never enjoy these sensations, and be perfectly happy with simpler ones. I might shake my head and think to myself "you're an adult. WHY are you incapable or unwilling to enjoy adult flavors??"
but to each his own.
Maybe people just don't like attacking lower or less than mainstream acts.
Maybe because somebody like Taylor gets more exposure, especially to people who don't like her music (the larger your fanbase, the larger your dissenters too). Same thing happens with any huge artist, like the Beatles, Pink Floyd, or recently Bowie. There's probably a ratio that somebody could work out. Whereas smaller groups or artists just don't have that same level of exposure to dissenters.
idk. just an idea
I think my trouble is being so excited about the first two tracks and then kind of tiring myself out by the time the back end rolls around. Good suggestion about the short bursts; I just previewed Only Skin with fresh ears and it already sounds much better than I ever remember it.
Hm! That is interesting. Emily is what made me really fall in love with Joanna Newsom's music in the first place.
I'd argue that Emily, M&B and cosmia are similar in the way that the lyrics are sung more rhythmically, while only skins and sawdust are similar BC the rhythms are most unorthodox and irregular??
>when it becomes so acclaimed that you simply can't dismiss the album as "bad"
But what if it's the opposite and there's an album that I think is really good, but everyone (on /mu/) hates?
Am I wrong for 'getting it' or am I hearing some that isn't there.
carving off a few styles I never liked from my "to listen" list doesn't lead to to stagnation; if anything, it brings the ones I DO like into ever-sharper relief
it's a balancing act. openness to new experience is crucial to getting something new to you that you might love; but it also means you might spend days of your time with something that gives you very little in exchange.
after enough musical experience, once someone has a sense of taste, there's more than enough music in the world for them to experience - even with those limits set on what they're willing to go the extra mile for.
as a rule, nothing I've outright disliked on my first listen I've ever grown to love. but plenty of times what I really liked on first hearing has become some of my all-time favorites. some were simpler and fell by the wayside, but others had deeper stuff going on in them, which gives them lastability for me.
Joanna is a great artist, but sometimes her music can be tiring due to all the sounds and sudden changes in her music.
I like Ys a lot, but I still struggle a bit while listening to it in one sit.
It's a bit odd, though. I can stand albums that are far longer easily.
Historically, the vast majority of albums I now enjoy were growers in hindsight, there are very few albums where my first listen was the listen that I liked it the most. Recently I've noticed that I have became better at noticing and selecting which albums are likely to grow on me, and which ones aren't. It doesn't mean that I enjoy the album very much on the first listen, but I've somehow developed the ability to determine which albums are likely to grow on me.
Can't say which albums, I've listened to a bunch of their singles though, most recently that new track they released, I try it and by the end I don't want to hear another one. One of these days I might just sit down and listen to MPP or sung tongs all the way through and that might help me get it.
intuition! it's a faculty you can train through experience as surely as any of your other senses - not weird at all
I tend away from milder or subtler music, so nearly everything I like to listen to gives me that "wow" moment straight off. the "grower" aspect I get from relistening is in understanding just what it was that produces that effect in me (whenever I'm not fully possessed by what I'm hearing)
It depends on how you get your kicks when listening music, or just how curious you are I guess.
I really like exploring new stuff, even if I'll probably dislike it. The curiosity alone makes it worth while.
The thought of missing some unknown jewel because I decided to stick to things I know I'll like bothers me. It's true that I end up listening to stuff I outright dislike, but I've also found some really good things too.
Maybe I haven't been able to balance this, or I'm just too curious. I've found that when I focus on genres or artists I like I get too comfortable, sometimes a little bored. So I go fishing for new things. After a while I return to my favourite genres again and then the cycle repeats.
>Just tried Who Could Win a Rabbit. The vocals are painful.
How...? I can't comprehend how someone could think that. Compared to wilfully abrasive and quirky singers like Bob Dylan and Jeff Mangum, AnCo sound like a choir of angels.
Yeah they're singles are their poppiest and often their most hyperactive stuff. So maybe if you give their deep cuts a chance you could get into them. Panda Bear's Person Pitch has a lot of the same draws as AnCo but is also very spacey and chill so maybe try that.
In my case it's the opposite. Sometimes you just have to slowly put the pieces together.
Hearing someone say that growers don't exist annoys me a bit. Don't take it pearsonaly though.
The way that they slide around from pitch to pitch and change the timbre of either naturally or by an effect (the video wasn't very good so I couldn't tell). It just sounds like their trying to be as weird and quirky as possible and giving a poorly controlled vocal performance is apparently part of that.
I'm 6 minutes into Alvin Row and this is actually really good. The vocals behave themselves and the sparse but textured instrumentation really compliments it.
I'm never bored. endlessly overwhelmed at having my mind blown repeatedly is more like it. it's like I was trained in the trad media world of broadcasts to accept only a trickle of novelty at a time; now here I am, riding atop of a geyser!
even the most parochial regions of the planet are getting access to the most rarefied media ever produced. I always think that the world is just starting to have its mind blown. we just happen to be riding the crest of this first big wave in the worldwide dissemination of culture.
the tragic thing is that the process never ends, unless you put the brakes on. but that's not a sign of narrow-mindedness in the internet age; it's an admission of human frailty! everything is simply too much for any single person to take into themselves.
I've found more masterpieces in 4 years than I would have in my entire life if not for the internet. I can't be dissatisfied - and to continuously hunger for more, greater, deeper pleasures after a certain point feels just a bit greedy, doesn't it?
I get what you're talking about but that specifically is why I use 4chan. People here will outright trash Kid A for instance. So it isn't very relevant to us.
You'd have been downvoted on Reddit or banned for trolling on a forum though so I get why you put it here.
Thank you for reminding me why I put up with /mu/
What annoys me is when I see the phrase applied to pop music (and yes, all of the music that is talked about a lot on this board is pop music). If we were talking about extremely dissonant or avant-garde music then I could understand, but calling, for example, a Joanna Newsom album a "grower" when it is just tuneful pop music is really dumb.
Another anon in this thread was saying something like this, but I think that when it comes to music, especially conventionally melodic music, you either have an intuitive grasp of it or you don't. If you actually understand music then albums shouldn't be "growers", you should be able to appreciate it for what it is on the first listen.
>It just sounds like their trying to be as weird and quirky as possible
I used to think this way about bands like AnCo many years ago. Now I look back at how limited my tastes were back then and I realize how much my appreciation of music has developed. I'm not trying to insult you by saying this, it's just my own personal experience of how my tastes developed and my prejudices fell away. AnCo aren't "trying to be weird", they're just making the music that works for them. It's how their minds work.
New town burn out was also good. I'll probably listen to that and Alvin Row again. Thanks for showing me some songs I probably wouldn't have found other wise
No album is immune to criticism, in my opinion.
As this >>61807928 guy said, that's the reason I come here. And getting to know sweet obscure stuff from time to time.
>after a certain point feels just a bit greedy, doesn't it?
Not really. It's not like we're keeping the music from others. If anything, we tend to promote it.
That really depends on your definition of "pop music". I struggle to see Newsom's music as just "tuneful pop". I understand where you're going with this, though.
It also depends on how much music you've listened to, and how varied has been.
The last grower I've found was Colin Stetson's New History Warfare Vol. 2: Judges. But when I was starting to get into music and I found about ITAOTS in an "best indie albums" list somewhere on the internet it was a grower too.
Also, what you're suggesting is like saying that nothing but avant-garde can have depth to it that you can dissect through multiple listens, which is just not true.
I get what you're saying, I think this comes back down to the central topic in that "I just don't get it." I don't think it's bad because 50 million elvis fans can't be wrong, right? There has to be something there that people connect with, sadly I'm not quite one of those people.
>Also, what you're suggesting is like saying that nothing but avant-garde can have depth to it that you can dissect through multiple listens, which is just not true.
Not quite. I totally get finding new stuff on repeat listens. What I can't understand is going from disliking an album to liking it through repeat listens, or needing repeat listens to "understand" the music.
"finding new stuff on repeat listens" is actually the key to it. That, or building your own interpretation/story with multiple listens, if you're like me.
As a very crude and common example take any of GY!BE's releases. Maybe in your first listen some imagery come into your mind, and the album picked your interest enough to give it another go. In it you develop the imagery more, maybe into a story or something similar. That's when you become attached to the music.
As for using repeated listens to "understand the music", Black widow's Sacrifice is a good example. It narrates how a pagan ritual develops. That's easy to get, but in the songs some names are mentioned (Astaroth, a demon). You do a bit of research and then return to the album. Maybe you pull out something else this time, and you repeat the process. This varies a lot depending on how perceptive and knowledgeable the listener is; but since no one knows everything it's bound to happen eventually.
>Not really. It's not like we're keeping the music from others. If anything, we tend to promote it.
you're right - love of music isn't a zero-sum game, but look at it this way: I've gone through more discrete phases of musical taste than most people undergo in a lifetime. eventually some of us will want to get off the treadmill. it's like living in a house that's always being renovated - not very comfortable!
simply enjoying fully what I've already found would still last me my entire life. I can admit that I have enough music already. even if I stopped finding more music tomorrow forever, I think I'd still be happy with what I have. just slowing the rate of discovery down to a manageable speed would be enough, really.
I disagree with you there.
Most people here listen to a lot more music than your regular joe, too.
Even after listening to hundreds, or thousands of releases I still feel the need to find something fresh.
I don't see that aspect of me changing any time soon.
It's ok to just sit down and enjoy the goods that you have, but it's not a situation that attracts me particularly.