Can we just agree that noise "music" isn't music?

yeah let's all agree
good job

faggot

That definition sums up noise music tho

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How about if you can't write a particular piece into a score, we don't call it music

>thinking noise can't be an expression of emotion or form of beauty
lmao

nice attempt lol, but you can take your buttmad back to reddit

>>53541523
>"vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."
So noise too then.

>>53541554
wrong
>>53541553
ok thanks
>>53541568
it actually can't though
Noise music can be art but it just isn't musical unless it's incorporated with musical elements, at which point it becomes "noise ____" not noise

>beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion
Well, beauty really is subjective, and noise can definitely express emotion.
The definition of consonance changes over time, so harmony is kind of subjective too.
I argue that any sound presented in a musical context is music.
Would I listen to it all though? Hell no.

>>53541523
noise fits that definition
also the definition is shit

>>53541586
It meets your initial definition.

>>53541566
You can score noise.
It won't be in a standard notation, but people have done it.

Music:the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
the written or printed score of a musical composition.


noise isn't music

>>53541586
how far up your own ass is your head?

>>53541523
>"vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."

Thats rap fucked.

Can we just all agree abstract paintings aren't art?

>>53541639
No because abstract paintings take effort to produce

>>53541639
lel they aren't

>>53541652
Art is intent, not effort.
pls clt come back

>>53541639
I'd say noise music is more akin to dadaism in that it makes you wonder if it actually is art.
As it turns out, it is.

>>53541665
Art is intent and effort. If there was a button that you could press that produced randomly generated artwork, it wouldn't be your art, for example.

>beauty of form

Beauty is subjective. There's plenty of noise artists out there whose work I'd claim to have its own beauty, whether in terms of sound or in terms of the way their work is structured and crafted.

>harmony

Harmony is defined as "an orderly or pleasing combination of elements in a whole". Again, there's plenty of noise out there which contains both of those elements.

>expression of emotion

Noise is as emotive as sound gets.

So there, even by that totally pedestrian and simplistic definition of music which you've presented noise IS music(despite the fact that plenty of noise artists don't even consider what they're doing to be music, or merely consider that what they're doing contains some musical elements as a part of more abstract sound art).

>>53541678
But that button would be someone's work of art.
Art =/= skillful expression only
Art = expression period

>>53541681
not op

>Again, there's plenty of noise out there which contains both of those elements.
But the point seems to be that not all noise does, especially harsh noise that's intentionally abrasive, lacks structure and has no harmony

>Noise is as emotive as sound gets.
Noise music never really succeeds at conveying complex emotions imo

>>53541707
I never said art is just skillful expression but expression with intent and effort. Clearly most noise musicians aren't skilled musicians but I would say some noise is music

>>53541709
>Noise music never really succeeds at conveying complex emotions imo
>imo
Your opinion is uneducated.
I'm not even a noise fan and I can think of at least one noise album that contains intense emotion.
It's Ottoman Black btw.

>beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion
>and expression of emotion
>and emotion
>and
You have really fucked up there

>>53541523
why are there so many people on /mu/ who "give a shit" about this.

>>53541709
Key word
>imo
If after listening to Mika Vainio's Kilo you're inclined to still make shit threads like this there's no helping you.

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You faggots got troled by me :')

noise is music in the same way pretentious modern art is art. some boundaries should always be pushed, but where is the line drawn? if you ask me, noise can be interpreted as a form of audio art but is, if i may say so, a dumb and pretty 2d way of expressing oneself. i can get an album with noise elements, or a noise track, but if all you do is make noise, well. you're more of a performance artist (and a one trick pony at that) than a musician.

>>53541765
>Mika Vainio's Kilo
not even noise

where the fuck are you newshits coming from
>>53541678
how is that analogy relevant?
>>53541622
noise fits that definition
>>53541637
nope
>>53541709
>But the point seems to be that not all noise does, especially harsh noise
op said noise, not harsh noise
>intentionally abrasive
lots of music is intentionally abrasive, take black sabbath for example
>lacks structure
nothing lacks structure
every single piece of music has structure
unconventional structure =/= no structure
>Noise music never really succeeds at conveying complex emotions imo
that's too bad, it does for me and lots of other people

>>53541773
I think this is a sentiment anyone can agree with

>>53541789
see
>>53541767

>>53541783
If by Rust the album isn't noise for you what the fuck.

>>53541773
I agree with this in part, but only when it comes to noise artists that just shit out album after album (Merzbow in particular).
Anyone whose craft has practically become manufacture is of little interest to me.
There are some noise artists who put effort and detail into their craft, and it shows.

>>53541709
>But the point seems to be that not all noise does

Neither does all hip-hop music nor all rock music nor all jazz. Does this not make those genres music?

>Noise music never really succeeds at conveying complex emotions imo

What are complex emotions? tfw no gf?
Prurient's Arrowhead is as emotionally overwhelming and powerful of an album as I've ever heard.

>>53541639
"lele modern art sucks" is a babby's first opinion on art. It's completely pleb and most people who say it have never had a serious interest in visual art beyond drawing in class.

Thinking noise isn't music is just the 4chan version of being one of those people that think metal isn't music. Regardless of whether you like it or not it is music. I would say a lot of ambient music and noise music have similar structures, one is just harsher than the other. Is ambient music not music as well? I'm sorry you can't listen to anything that isn't a 4 piece pop bands latest verse/chorus/verse single

>>53541839
>I'm sorry you can't listen to anything that isn't a 4 piece pop bands latest verse/chorus/verse single
and I tip my fedora to you, good fellow

>>53541773
The line should never be drawn in an art form, it needs to be pushed or the art will stagnate.

>>53541839
A lot of noise is basically just really turnt ambient music.
People always dispute this, but I just tell them to put on Harmony In Ultraviolet with the volume all the way up.

>>53541865
>it needs to be pushed or the art will stagnate.
[citation needed]

>>53541773
>but if all you do is make noise

No wonder you can't wrap your head around noise is this is the way you perceive it as a whole. There's countless approaches to making it which result in countless end results, both completely banal and one-dimensional and immensely complex and layered.

>>53541857
Wow, nice rebuttal.

>people take noise not being music as an insult

>>53541877
The source cited would be all of art history.

>>53541800
>>53541773
nope
>noise is music in the same way pretentious modern art is art
what're you even trying to say here
noise fits the definition of music
"pretentious modern art" fits the definition of art
>>53541811
op isn't the only one who's got his head up his ass
>>53541820
i have no problem with you having little interest in it, but what about a few hundred years ago when the organist of a church had to shit out a new cantata/mass/whatever each week?
this has to do with your opinion, not whether noise is music or not
>>53541865
this, but the boundaries are already pushed
listen to what iannis xenakis was doing a few decades back
>>53541884
correct

>>53541523
Noise perfectly fits your description though.

>>53541819
>isn't noise for you
no it just isn't noise, it's babby's first experimental with elements of "noise"

>>53541891
[citation needed]

>>53541820
never really explored noise enough. could you give me an example?

i can illustrate my point with "I was a prisoner in your skull" by the swans. it's safe to say it has some noise elements which give it a cool eerie vibe, and i LOVE hearing the grit in music, but i can't really enjoy noise by itself. i fail to see the point in confining yourself to one specific genre, especially if it's noise.

but again, i wouldn't go as far as saying it's not music because shitty noise artists are same as shitty pop artists - they bring nothing new or valuable to the table.

to sum up - i'm open to suggestions. give me a good noise album, it doesn't have to be entry level, and please no shitbow type of stuff.

>>53541899
I agree that it is my opinion that Merzbow and like artists are less appealing.
I never said what they do isn't art though.

>>53541926
hanatarash - 3
gritty

>>53541865
well said actually.

>>53541924
>[spoonfeed me]
People who think that art stops being art when common components change or are removed are the original wrong generation.
It's just how it goes man.

>>53541877
According to people with /pol/ type beliefs anything that doesn't represent a classical standard of beauty isn't art. Literally all of art would just be circlejerking to Greek, Roman and Renaissance art and architecture, everything else is "degenerate." Is that really what you want art to be?

>>53541870
This. Same with Yellow Swans - Going Places
>>53541877
What do you mean? We can't keep writing with the same progressions and genre ideas and create something as fresh as before.

>>53541926
Jason Crumer - Ottoman Black
That's my favorite post-millenial noise album.
It has elements of ambient music as well, but they're employed so as to provide a contrast and context for the noisier moments.
It's harsh, but conceptual, and definitely not flat.

>>53541966
We vaporwave now.

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>>53541906
>babby's first

>>53541926
>shitty artists are shitty
Kill yourself pleb :^)

>>53541884
As a music producer i can tell you that if you take any, and i mean any sound, it can be a goddamn fart or a Beethoven sample, and drown it in maxed out audio effects, you will get almost the same results.

There's countless approaches to making music, but not countless approaches to fitting a certain genre. For example, it's just as easy to make post rock, or any genre which is so specific. Following formulas is never impressive.

>>53541899
"Pretentious" in a way that it disregards form or value just to get the shock element. Pushing boundaries is cool, but if all you can offer is shock value, I'm not impressed. Not saying it's not music, just saying, it's a pretty clearly defined genre, which limits it a lot, even though it started out (I believe) as an answer to all constraints

music is anything which is a sonic event and defined as music.

noise is music.

>>53542046
>babby's second

>>53541523
Music = Sounds organized over time, nothing more , nothing less.
>>53541566
Sheet music is outdated

>>53542348
Actually, written art music is designed to age the best, because new technology can lead to new arrangements of older compositions.

>>53542135
>Following formulas is never impressive.

There is no one formula for all noise artists to abide by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtGbUqXfQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9lboKl3Tk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_mALNbuQZ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m53fbHbyZO8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMDrQ_QFCKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvhyQaIxjuA

I would expect the differences between these to be obvious. When you add up the fact that almost all of those artists have massive discographies and almost all of them have also made a habit of regularly completely changing their creative approaches and reinventing themselves you get all the proof you need that noise is anything but formulaic.


>Pushing boundaries is cool, but if all you can offer is shock value, I'm not impressed.

And I agree, but shock value and "upsetting squares" isn't what noise is about. People who are unfamiliar with noise are never expected to be exposed to it in the first place. If they do and they end up appreciating it, great. If they don't nobody really cares.

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>>53541523
>"vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."
>music has to be beautiful to be music
do you literally not know what art is?

>>53543915
This. Noise is actually one of the less edgy genres, because it rarely has any specific message to convey, and is usually jut pure sonic presentation.

Whether or not noise is music is a debate that won't be resolved itt and has nothing to do with anyone's response to listening to noise. Proceed with trotting out the same arguments for both sides so that we can all get on with the same opinions we already had.

Most fans and producers of noise don't care what it's called.

>>53544064
This is a good point. Pop music can be noise to somebody who doesn't like it.
Noise is just any unwanted sound. What most people think of as noise music isn't really noise, just music with a focus shifted from common structural elements to less common ones.