It's not about not liking them. It's about why you don't like them. if it's purely sonic, then you're okay. But if you're more deterred by lyrical content or the cultural/social influence of the genre then you're a fucking idiot and i'm glad i have better taste than you.
Its more the statement "I don't like genre-x" that irks me. I try to listen to a wide range of music and am actually very happy that I do and its kind of sad to see people unable to like large groups of music just because they can't immediately get into the genre.
>>53059437 but who cares if it sounds good. do you get what i'm saying? Lyrical content isn't shit compared to how it sounds. That's why I like Chief Keef monolithic rap anthems over Eminem/Aesop Rock/Kendrick Lamar shitty word vomit.
>>53059448 Country really sucks dick though for the most part, the only time I have liked it is when a distinct artist like Bob Dylan dips into it or takes influence and even then I'm not crazy about. For me, Country sucks cock.
>>53059466 >Lyrical content isn't shit compared to how it sounds.
Fans of rap music would violently disagree with you. If the lyrics are there, they are important and worth studying.
As far as how it sounds, some instrumental hip hop is really good and interesting, but that isn't rap, and a lot of what is used in rap is just repetitive beats built on samples so it is not very interesting musically if you subtract the lyrics and rapping, which is almost always pretty limited.
>>53059466 I disagree. I think there's a balance between sounding good and artistic substance that needs to be met. Sure I'll never mind listening to something that sounds pleasant but I won't consider it good necessarily. Also, I don't like Aesop Rock. I think even though he has a wide vocabulary, he doesn't have that much to say, there are songs with no words that say leagues more than some of the most verbose lyricists. That being said, it's all fairly subjective what you think has the most artistic fidelity, but we all have opinions and most of us are here to argue over which musicians are have the most. A lot of people like saying Neutral Milk Hotel and there are even some people with interesting opinions.
All I'm trying to say is there is some good country music and aesop rock makes boring music.
>>53059503 Well saying country sucks dick is kind of like if someone looked at lil'b and said all rap sucks because he's rap and he's popular. Honestly Ween's 12 golden country greats is what got me to appreciate it. If you can get past the tear in your beer pop hits there's some interesting stuff.
>>53059503 > a lot of what is used in rap is just repetitive beats built on samples so it is not very interesting musically if you subtract the lyrics and rapping, which is almost always pretty limited
you aren't listening to the right hip hop, or you dont have pop sensibilities.
>>53059518 All I'm saying is that if it sounds excellent, i don't care what they are saying at all. They could literally be calling me out specifically in the song calling me a faggot and if it sounded good i would listen to it. but then again, i dont listen to music for the image or thoughts like most people here. I listen for the sound.
I used to listen to rap but it really is the worst shit there is. You're just wasting time listening to hip hop. The melodys are shit and most of the time they're stolen. But when they arnt stolen they're always shit simple 3 note garbage. The vocals are terrible and your missing out on imo the most important part of music, the emotional output tht comes with good vocals. The lyrics in rap are cringe enducing bullshit about being a cool dude and being a skilled mc
The whole genre is a joke. Our kids will look back on hip hop and Gangsta rap and feel embarrassed for us
>>53059545 That's just where we're gonna disagree. I can appreciate when music sounds good but if you make music just for it to sound good and not to be challenging, interesting, or artistic, I don't see any point. If I was only listening to music to feel good I could jerk off all day and get the same effect, but instead I jerk off like 3 times on a slow day and the rest I listen to music.
>>53059573 I don't really see any grounding in your opinion, and honestly it comes off as pretty miopic. Not liking a genre is one thing but actively trying to discredit the entirety of it is pretty childish. There's plenty of good, interesting, and artistic rap music. You can't let what's popular define your opinion, and even then I just think its mean spirited to detest such a large part of the industry.
>>53059545 >you aren't listening to the right hip hop, or you dont have pop sensibilities.
AKA "Lower you standards to like bad music"
No thanks. I've listened to plenty of rap, the problem is that it exists in a bubble. While other genres like rock and techno gave rise to more and more experimental and complex and shifting music (which gave birth to tons of new genres over the years), rap has used the same formula for 40 years but with changing fads and attitudes- and it's quite proud of it.
If you take something like Death Grips, which just barely mixes up the old rap formula into something different, you have "hip hop heads" reject it for being too different. Maybe 1 guy out of 10 who considers himself a hip hop "head" will embrace it.
Rap will never really be a complex or interesting music genre for these reasons. Hip Hop, yeah, because it's instrumental. But rap is just the same fucking shit in slightly different ways. Hearing about how some guy grew up in a shitty hood or a rapper telling you his name over and over, rappers who celebrate dealing crack as if that is something to brag about, etc. Yes, they have witty word play and rhymes and flows but it all amounts to jack fucking shit, it doesn't mean anything emotionally 90% of the time and they are not challenging your ideas musically or philosophically. It would be like if the past 40 years of rock all had the lyrics of AC/DC songs. It'd be terrible.
>>53059598 Some people think jam bands sound good, I think the greatful dead are boring. If you think music has to be artistsic and innovative to sound good maybe we agree more than I thought. But I would also say a lot of lo-fi, pc music, and pop don't exactly hurt my ears to listen to and make fine background music, but I don't really consider it interesting art and it would never rank on any list of favorite musicians.
>>53059646 >and spoke over the top of it about how good they are at speaking over stolen melodys
This was Rakim's entire career and many consider him to be among the greatest if not the greatest rapper ever:
Turn up the bass, check out my melody, hand out a cigar I'm lettin knowledge be born, and my name's the R A-k-i-m, not like the rest of them, I'm not on a list That's what I'm sayin, I drop science like a scientist My melody's in a code, the very next episode Has the mic often distortin', ready to explode I keep the mic at Fahrenheit, freeze MC's to make 'em colder The listener's system is kickin' like solar As I memorize, advertise, like a poet Keep you goin' when I'm flowin', smooth enough, you know with the rough That's why the moral of my story I tell'll be Nobody beats the R, check out my melody
>>53059622 I'm a film student and the term we use to refer to people who can sit through old, or foreign films is "cinematically literate", meaning you can sit through a movie despite it not having the tropes you're used to. My point is I think anon meant you aren't "rap literate". There's no "lowering your standards" involved, you just need to sit back and let the music hit you instead of anticipating it. Further, I don't think you're being very fair to rap/hip hop in the slightest to the point I'm a little embarassed I'm even responding to your post.
>>53059613 but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about challenging, artistic, and interesting hip hop and country
>>53059622 but there are hip hop artists out there that progress the sounds and create interesting and unique sonic soundscapes. And usually the rap artists that are the best are the ones that aren't depending upon wordplay and flows, moreso on melody and the tone and texture of their voice. That's why I find chief keef to be a good artist, because he does interesting things with his voice that other rappers dont. Also if literally no rap is challenging your ideas musically then you aren't hearing what i hear. I hear a type of music that would've never been imagined in the 60s, 70's, 80s, or maybe even the 90s. It's nihilistic, futuristic, idiosyncratic, and has its own history. It's very interesting and I love that it has influenced the mainstream so much.
>>53059675 >I'm a film student and the term we use to refer to people who can sit through old, or foreign films is "cinematically literate",
Well I WAS a film student and filmmaker in college and I apply the same fucking attitude to film. Actually I have a real problem with a ton of the bullshit people act like you NEED to like as a "cinephile"- something I don't call myself. I have a funny but long and boring story about that. Basically in one of my film classes, a teacher gave up showing us challenging films because no one in the class cared. So she said "OK bring your own movies in". We wound up watching Evil Dead and some movie called "Zombie Strippers from Outer Space". I didn't stay for the later and actually had an autistic outburst. I was paying for that class and this is what education came to?
But that type of mentality in film studies- what I call "film jocks"- are the same type of people who are the "hip hop heads". They fetishize bullshit like really stupid fucking rap that sounds cool because the guy raps about dealing crack and how great he is at rhyming the same way a film jock fetishizes the absolute dumbest shit like bad zombie movies that are utterly meaningless and devoid anything intelligent while prattling on about how a film "must have" this or is "all about the story!".
So I understand the difference and I get the being "literate" part, but the genre is extremely limited. Cinema went very far in a century, rap has gone almost nowhere in 40 years.
>>53059750 And the fact is the overwhelming majority of rappers do not make "beats"
Which makes it even worse
"hey guys I got this cool idea for music, we talk about how good we are at talking over get this, beats that we stole off youtube get this, that not only contain samples stolen from talented musicians but actually base the whole melody around a stolen melody"
>>53059723 Well I was just making an analogy but okay we can go that route. Honestly, evil dead is one of the first highly successful independent films and it should be studied, of course not for any value of its writing, but as a film that does a lot stylistically with very little capital investment. Anyways I reiterate I don't think your opinion on hiphop has any grounding whatsoever and if you really think there is no good hiphop you either have not tried to listen to that much or you just don't want to like it for whatever reasons you have, and at that point I don't know what you're trying to get out of this.
>>53059794 >Honestly, evil dead is one of the first highly successful independent films and it should be studied, of course not for any value of its writing, but as a film that does a lot stylistically with very little capital investment.
I think that's a bad reason to study an entire film because there are lots of interesting independent films that do a lot with a little, but of course did not get the kind of cult following.
Also we didn't even analyze it. She just showed it when some kid brought it in and she went "Yeah I liked that. OK next movie"
that's why I freaked out, she had just given up on us because the majority of our class and my major literally had no interest in actual filmmaking.
One of the saddest moments of my college experience was walking past this one classroom- the class had 3 walls which were completely glass, so you could see into the class walking by it on campus. The professor was showing Late Spring, one of the top favorite films of all time, a film that is important for its technique, unique artistry and complex emotional themes and impact. And I watched as most of the students just texted or browsed the internet on their phones. A few were asleep. I couldn't find a single student who was really paying attention.
Here comes the saddest part. I actually went into the building and stood outside the class and waited for the movie to end. When the students came out I looked to see if any of them were crying or thinking or talking about the movie. All of them were on their phones or bullshitting about other shit like parties.
Sorry for the rant, when you brought up the "cinema literacy" thing I just thought of how terrible my school was.
>>53059840 i can't believe people like you. everything you said, you pulled out your ass. just absolute fucking waste. why not actually read up on the things you try to discuss, it might be more fun for you as well.
>>53059837 Well I do agree Late Spring is great, but I also prefer Tokyo Story. One of my favorite movies is Crumb. I legitimately think it's the most intimate documentary ever made and it is married so beautifully with the soundtrack that I view it as a perfect film. However, plenty of people look at the film and go "Robert Crumb is an asshole! This movie is terrible". I don't think there's any legitimacy to that logic jump. Yes, Robert Crumb does seem like a jerk, but that in no way makes its a bad film, im fact I think it makes it better. Why this man is aggressively vulgar in his work and distant with most of his family is extremely interesting to me, its a tragic story of the flawed psyche. That being said, you might be able to see how I could look at some more sobering gangster rap and see beyond the drug slinging and the guise and view it as a compelling life story of a flawed human being. Of course this isn't always the case, some rappers never let down the guise and show the hearrt, but it is there and I don't think it's fair to say no rapper has ever said anything worth considering. Currently I'm thinking about Piñata (an album with great production) and really one of my favorite albums of 2014. I don't thing Gibbs is a good person, but the album tells the story of why he isn't, and he shows deep into his own psyche. All I'm saying is Crumb is the gangster rap of movies.
It's fine for specific genres like crunkcore or something, but saying you plain don't like all country or all rap is most likely wrong. There's such an insane amount of styles and subgenres, that it's likely there's something in there you'd at least appreciate, assuming you had reasonable taste.
>>53059922 did you even listen to those samples? None of those songs have the same structure (besides the 2 with verse/chorus/verse but those have completely different textures, tones, instruments and vocal performances).
>>53059922 Well your big problem is assuming a major pop rap artist like eminem is trying to innovate. Also I don't think that's true at all and if I was going by your logic the same could be same about any genre over the same amount of time.
>>53059916 >That being said, you might be able to see how I could look at some more sobering gangster rap and see beyond the drug slinging and the guise and view it as a compelling life story of a flawed human being.
I would if those same rappers didn't turn around and make cash off that image. Like Jay-Z.
>>53059959 But radiohead and ac/dc are argueably inseperate genres and certainly in seperate sub genres, for some reason abstract hip-hop and art rap haven't been even remotely brought up in this discussion.
>>53059965 Well the funny thing about Freddie Gibbs and Jay-Z is that Freddie Gibbs isn't the same rapper as Jay-Z
And for anyone who doesn't think there's any variation is rap ever, which I didn't even know was an opinion beyond low quality bait until now, I implore you to listen to this. http://youtu.be/zx_BfRa3Vko
Pretty sure hip hop is the worst genre that ever existed
>stolen melodys >the beats they didn't steal are shit >shit lyrics about being cool >shit vocals with no melody >responsible for the death of probably hundreds of thousands of impressionable people at this point >responsible for the imprisonment of probably hundreds of thousands of impressionable people at this point
it's poisonous, the music, the culture everything. It's shit and people are gonna look back on it and laugh cry and cringe
I'm really proud of you guys. We managed to get over 80 poss while still maintaining some level of civil debate before completely devolving into name calling and accusing each other of being plebs. That must be a /mu/ record.
You're being generous. Most likely most of them have heard his name in passing or seen it on some chart somewhere but never saw his films. Also this started as a discussion about challenging films, not "obscure" films anyway. If you think Sayat Nova isn't challenging, that means you understand the completely unique visual tableau style, the abstractions and lack of dialogue, the many obscure references to Georgian culture and folklore, which none of your do.
You've been doing the same thing before me. You asked me opinion and ANY film I would have replied with, including a made up film, would have garnered the same reply from you because you were never interested in a discussion, just "HAHA U PLEB I AM BETTER AT MOVIES THAN YOU".
>>53060251 see it doesn't matter who improved what, what matters is the sound and it sounds completely different. if you hear a rapper over a beat, i hear the intricate and well produced details within the beat and the idiosyncracies of the rapper. i'm not trying to convince you of anything, but you're really helping me see why i like rap so much.
>>53060275 /tv/ can barely hold an actual discussion about a mainstream film together, much less anything deeper.
>>53060277 because you called him "entry level" implying he is some super famous easy to watch director that most people just breeze through, when most people don't even watch his films. And when they do, I'm sure most people find it challenging.
>>53060261 Implying something like let's say neo nazi punk has never killed anyone by your logic. The culture has nothing to do with it, we're talking about the music dude. Also I find your comment about "black people going from jazz and blues to rap" racially ignorant.
>>53060382 Well if you're going off the CULTURE of neo nazism in punk it's rooted in nazism and, buddy, I'm gonna break this down for you; no, there is not a holocaust level of people being killed as senselessly and as systematically in gangster rap culture. Way to go, don't know how you did it, but this thread wound up being about the Holocaust, you should get a medal.
Even the softest rappers have glorified killing people. Drake has referenced killing people. Tyler the creator has referenced killing people. I'm sure childish gambino has a line somewhere about killing people. Every single rapper has glorified killing people to be cool at least once and the majority base their whole career around the subject
Killing people Robbing people Getting money Fucking bitches
Rap music and hip hop culture set the black community back 30 years and ruined hundreds of thousands of lives
>>53060400 >For what he represents, he is entry level.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean man? There is no place on earth, even in Georgia, where is films are not challenging in some way. His visual language is completely unique by Sayat Nova and his films following his prison release can be just as disorienting.
Sorry, but if you don't find these "challenging" that would mean you're saying you can absorb and understand everything he is trying to convey throughout each film in each frame and abstract expression and obscure reference he puts in his films. You can't, unless you're a fucking Georgian historian of folklore, and then that still wouldn't explain away his visual style. Someone who is challenging is someone who does something unique and new structurely and someone who deviates from norms of the medium. He does all these things. Just because you heard of him does not make him less challenging.
You know who else is challenging? Godard. Bresson. Tarkovsky. Brakhage. All very well known directors who made complex films.
I think you mistook a discussion about film and learning to appreciate it with an 8th grade pissing match. Maybe you should spend more time appreciating film and it's complexities instead of bragging about your lettrbox diary on /tv/
>>53060479 Again, you're just generalizing. There are a ton of rappers who have never referenced killing people. You're just being ignorant and judging a whole genre of music by cherry picking the most popular artists. I don't know why I'm even replying to this bait, honestly.
>>53060479 Well I'm not an expert in "all rap music", and we already know you definitely aren't either, but even though I don't find it to be very good, tyler the creators "goblin" is a concept album. So when he's talking about raping someone in tron cat he doesn't necessarily condone rape he's telling a story. Sure, it's a bad story, but its a story and its not anything else. I'm sure the same is the case for many other rappers aswell. But on top of ALL OF THIS I would say again, as I have numerous times in this thread, that's we're oversimplifying rap and hip hop into a very narrow ammount of subgenres, and I will ALSO REITERATE that your initial point was there is nothing artistic or innovative about any rap, yet you keep returning to a very narrow section of subgenres and have not considered or commented on numerous points to the contrary.
>>53060504 You and me both man. I don't think these guys are worth it, this is getting borderline autistic how circular the conversation is getting. Gonna go listen to some busdriver, y'know a rapper who doesn't condone killing people. Later taters <3
>>53060492 I don't really understand all the hostility, honestly. You seem to be the one turning this into an "8th grade pissing match". There is nothing to say beyond, I disagree. If you genuinely think I like films so I can be a part of some subculture there is really no reason for me to continue this conversation.
Even so, judging a film for how "challenging" it is is purely subjective so I don't really see a point in arguing it. I'm not trying to say it is a shallow film, because it's certainly not. I just don't necessarily agree with your criteria for a challenging film. No insults need to be thrown out (especially considering the opportunity to discuss something like this is rare) but I guess you apparently mistook me for someone else. All is well.
People ignore indoctrination when they themselves are the subjects. I'm sure most people ITT acknowledge brainwashing in other facets of life such as the the news (FOX news vs. Daily Show), or religion, but are incapable or simply unwilling to recognize it when its directed at them. I'm not saying that rap is part of a government conspiracy, but you cant deny that it effects people who sometimes grow up listening to this shit.
Rap is the glorification of the ego, that's why it feels so good to listen to for those who want to fantasize about being some hard ass thug that gets money and fucks hoes.
You can namedrop a couple of weird rappers (who usually just use the same rap structure while sampling some other genre of music that isn't normally sampled) but the fact of the matter is that 95% of the rap discussed here is the generic shit, and people proudly listen to and defend it. Rap is to /mu/ as Capeshit is to /tv/.
Look, kid, they're shallow and have produced a vile culture. You have no taste, don't pretend otherwise. In the 1980s, the murder rate skyrocketed, this is also the decade that hip hop became popular and distinct. Country, a genre lampooned for its support of alcoholism, has become especially popular in my area, alcohol-related deaths have skyrocketed. >>53059448 Fuck off you faux-eclectic. >>53059518 A song by definition must contain lyrics.
Stop talking out of your ass. >>53059545 Pop sensibilities aren't a good thing, you shallow fuck.
You're not special for only enjoying music like the basic bitch you are, nobody here has the capacity to appreciate music.
>>53059608 How is discrediting trash childish? There is no interesting or artistic hip hop, stating there is doesn't make it so, your low standards and non-existent taste does not make you an authority. >>53059675 >student A teenager who likes childish music! >>53059677 Oh look, another ignorant child. Ignorant poptimists, you know nothing yet you pretend to be geniuses. >It's very interesting and I love that it has influenced the mainstream so much. Childish psychopath. >>53059840 Punk has the worst politics. >>53059975 There is nothing to appreciate in pop music.
I'm hoping this is bait. The murder rate skyrocketed in the 80s, therefore hip hop is to blame? Surely you realize that correlation does not imply causation. I also hope you realize that in the 80s popular hip hop was generally party music about dancing, not about killing people. How can you explain the crime rate dropping in the 90s, when gangsta rap was at its most popular? How do you explain that the crime rate is at its lowest since the sixties and hip hop is incredibly popular right now? This post is so full of idiocy, hatred and bile it's hard to even know where to start. It may be the stupidest thing I've seen on /mu/. Do you also believe that horror movies make people into serial killers?
>>53062105 >anything that offends me is le maymay Go rot, filthy apologist. >Surely you realize that correlation does not imply causation. Kiddies believe this. >How do you explain that the crime rate is at its lowest since the sixties and hip hop is incredibly popular right now? A lit fire eventually calms down.
African Americans are responsible for the majority of crime in the US, music that glorifies this behavior just made them worse.
But you will defend these subhumans because you were told to.
What can you expect from a genre made by people in the 2 digit IQ range. You can argue that blacks have low IQ's because of racism or the drug war (and you would be wrong), but that doesn't change the fact that as of right now, the average black IQ is 85. You are listening to music made for, and by, people who used to classify as mentally retarded.
>The threshold I.Q. level for a diagnosis of mental retardation has been progressively lowered over the years, in part because of awareness of the damaging social prejudice suffered by those labeled "retarded." In 1959, the American Association on Mental Deficiency set 85 as the I.Q. below which a person was considered to be retarded.14 In 1992, the renamed American Association on Mental Retardation lowered the mental retardation "ceiling" to an I.Q. of 70-75,15 but many mental health specialists argue that people with I.Q.s of up to 80 may also have mental retardation.
>Country subgenres Bakersfield sound - Bluegrass - Close harmony - Honky tonk - Jug band - Progressive country - Lubbock sound - Nashville sound - Neotraditional country - Outlaw country - Red Dirt - Western swing - Texas country/Tejano
Plus of course you could pretend origin is a genre too so Southern country, Northern country, West coast, East coast etc
>>53062465 >its true because my teacher sed so Anti-intellectual trash. >>53062500 The test has changed, the average then is the same as the average now. >>53062551 >m-muh feels stop triggering me boogerman
>Some studies have found the gains of the Flynn effect to be particularly concentrated at the lower end of the distribution. Teasdale and Owen (1989), for example, found the effect primarily reduced the number of low-end scores, resulting in an increased number of moderately high scores, with no increase in very high scores. In another study, two large samples of Spanish children were assessed with a 30-year gap. Comparison of the IQ distributions indicated that the mean IQ-scores on the test had increased by 9.7 points (the Flynn effect), the gains were concentrated in the lower half of the distribution and negligible in the top half, and the gains gradually decreased as the IQ of the individuals increased. Some studies have found a reverse Flynn effect with declining scores for those with high IQ.
So the dumbest of society have gotten smarter, but everyone else is about the same.
Also, note the distinction between familial and clinical retardation.
>Familial retardation is usually not detected until a child enters school and has academic difficulties, at which point the teacher recommends psychological evaluation. Unlike the parents of clinically retarded children, who generally seek out help for their youngsters, the parents of those with familial retardation may take offense when their children are labeled mentally retarded and deny that there is a problem, especially since their children are often able to function competently in their daily lives outside school.
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