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Just how Patrician are you, /mu/?
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music

Thread replies: 139
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Just how Patrician are you, /mu/?
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not at all
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More than u
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7/10 on the scaruffi scale
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i had a bowl of nails for breakfast this morning
...
without milk
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how patrician am I?

you got an unopened bottle of ketchup?
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>babbies first EAI

lel
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i went to an avant-garde appreciation class, we read some literature, watch some art works and listen to some musique concrete

worst shit ever
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Only a little I guess
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>>52806744
Patricians don't dump their time on wasteful endeavors such as music
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itt: bad albums general
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I'm 100% deaf
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at least post the best EAI album

captcha: Ontop
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step aside you fruits
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>>52806744
Patrician enough to think this album is boring.
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i'm more patrician than you can possibly imagine
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>>52806784
That sounds great
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>>52806893
hey man me too
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>>52806744
dunno, really good album btw
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>>52807209
what is the current meme
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>>52807180
Your powers are weak, old man.
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Should I listen to OP album?
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>>52807239
sound collage/tape manipulation
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>>52807364
yes
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>>52807364
no because it will be 2deep4u
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i actually changed my name to patrick, thats how patrician i am
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>>52807369
lol no.

All timbral music is out. Harmony is back in.
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>>52807444
my last name is literally patrician, but in another language
not joking
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>>52807239
80s private pressings.
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>>52807471
tu é br que eu sei
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>>52807471
Bourgeois?
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>>52806970
Trying to find a recording of this online and I can't find anything. Any help?
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>>52807887
it's on slsk.
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>>52807945
no tengo el soulseek, lo siento
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>>52807962
get it. you'll be glad you did.
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>>52806893
lol
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>>52808002
Does it require a ratio? I can't seed from where I live so this is a dealbreaker.
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>>52808020
no. but if you aren't sharing anything people may unshare things from you or you could be banned. it's not torrenting it's direct P2P file sharing
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>>52808083
Ahh p2p gotcha
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>>52806744
this album make me vormit
Just understand: truly patrician is listening to music you REALLY enjoy
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>>52808714
>listening to music only for enjoyment

oh god, you realize you have the same approach to music as the average nickelback fan?
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>>52807471
Rövhål?
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>>52808714
what if i like this album?
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>>52808743
so you want to know meaning of life from bunch of unorganized noises? WTF. Why you would listen to music you dont enjoy
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>>52808766
good for you
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>>52808714
Truly patrician is listening to all kinds of music and moods, exploring those styles deeply and knowing what your personal preferences are. But at the same time, realizing that something you like can be considered bad, and something you don't like is actually good.
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>>52808829
yeah I was about to call you out, this one makes more sense
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>>52806784
?
>>52808331
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>>52808790
As on objective analysis of an artistic statement. duh

Art is not always pleasing.
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>>52808894
>Art is not always pleasing.
This.
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>>52808829
>Truly patrician is listening to all kinds of musi

Nah that's being a musical hoarder one of the least patrician things you can be. All quantity and no substance.
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>>52808926
You need to listen to all kinds of music before knowing what the best ones are. Almost every genre has quality stuff anyways.
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>>52808926
Listening to all kinds of music isn't hoarding. Downloading any and every album you can get your hands on would be considered hoarding.
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is this patrician

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m55WQbdfYhQ
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>>52808926
trying to argue around the term patrician is silly

dismissing entire genres and only sticking to what you are familiar with is not admirable, nor does it give off any sense of being a sensitive listener
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>>52809009
As s arule, I'd say most classical music is patrician
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My problem with this kind of music is that it focus more on the way it's made than the way it sounds
You can make those exactly sounds with other instruments, but since they were made in alternative ways people consider it innovative
So listening to this is pointless, you just have to read how it's done, since the sound itself is not even interesting, I mean anyone knows what is the sound of a microphone getting close to a sound source
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>>52809068
what about film classical music or neo classical darkwave?
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>>52809091
>pleb
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>>52809068
It isn't. It's just that only the best of the best has survived through the ages.
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Spoiler: If you've never studied at a conservatoire and don't know anything about music theory, musicology, world music history, composition, et cetera you don't deserve to call yourself a patrician, or even a music lover.
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>>52809112
As with everything else, it depends on the overall quality of the music - generally on the artist too
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>>52809147
Regardless, most people don't listen to "underground" classical music from centuries past anyways.
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I am patrician as fuck, my favorite album is Weezer - Green Album.
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>>52809156
I've finished basic studies (6 years).
Can I be a patrik?
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>>52809193
It's okay, but that doesn't make "most classical music" patrician.
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>>52809091
>my problem with this kind of music more on the way it's made than the way it sounds

this is the exact opposite of their intentions. onkyo artists especially and to a lesser extent electroacoustic improv artists are concerned with focused and considerate use of sound.

I don't think most people could make sound sources such as those that these musicians use sound anywhere near as compelling. This isn't noise music. It's not just about the texture they are creating. interplay between musicians, tension created by sound/silence, momentum, form, structure, aesthetic, etc are all present in this music. It can be difficult to immediately pick up on at times without tangible things to hold onto like melody, harmony, rhythm, and the like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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>>52809225
I was only thinking in terms of the greats. As you probably know anyways.
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>>52809261
>the very best of a certain style of music is good
WOW
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>>52809261
What this guy said >>52809279
The same can be applied to Jazz and Rock
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>>52809279
>Projected implications

>>52809302
>The same can be applied to Jazz and Rock

No it can't. Beatles and Miles Davis aren't patrician
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>>52809333
I was thinking about stuff like Captain Beefheart and Charles Mingus.
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>>52809333
what is your definition of patrician?
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>>52809234
I see I see
Well I don't know much about production and "electronic music" but when I listen to stuff like electroacoustic or onkyo I can't not think "why are the artists not doing the sounds with a synth? Why are they complicating stuff?", like this would be acceptable in other medias but music is sound, at least when we're talking about men-made stuff
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>>52809353
Not switching gears, the point is: All the classical music you've ever heard of without ever digging into the genre, is generally patrician with a few exceptions. The same cannot be said for Jazz or Rock.
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>>52809410
That's because only the best stuff has survived over the years and because it spans a longer time.
Classical Music, for the sake of being Classical Music, isn't patrician.
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>>52809406
>why are the artists not doing the sounds with a synth

you can't emulate every sound perfectly with a synthesizer

they are more complicated to manipulate in a live setting

less of a visceral attachment to the instrument

I don't mean this in a rude way, but it sounds like you haven't listened to much of this music at all. if you haven't listened to much of this music, I'd recommend the following over the OP album

keith rowe & john tilbury - duos for doris
keith rowe & toshimaru nakamura- between
greg kelley & jason lescalleet - forlorn green
dafeldecker/kurzmann/fennesz/o'rourke/drumm/siewert - s/t

>>52809463
>>52809410
>classical music, for the sake of being classical music, isn't patrician.

yeah what is this other guy even on about
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>>52809537
I haven't, even because those acute sounds go deep into my brain like needles
But I'll try some stuff, thanks
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>>52809392
No one definition necessarily, but I think someone has to meet a standard in order to be considered patrician

Let's call it a Bad/Good ratio. If you listen to more patrician music than you do "pleb" music, then you earn patrician status. The more "one-sided" your ratio is (1,000 patrician/65 pleb) the more patrician you are. So in a way I'd say there'd be varying degrees of patrician

>>52809463
>Classical Music, for the sake of being Classical Music, isn't patrician.

I still disagree for the most part, comparatively, the "best stuff that has survived over the years" for classical music, is inherently better than anything that survives from rock and jazz, by nature they are both less patrician, as they are both stripped down in comparison, and the "classics" from both Jazz and Rock can hardly claim to evoke the same range of emotions and mental imagery as classical masterpieces.
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>>52809580
hmm, well I'd recommend the first and last of what I listed then

there's a lot out there that doesn't have harsh high-pitched sine tones and whatnot
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>>52809619
are you fucking stupid? you defined a patrician as someone who listens to patrician music.
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Fuck being a patrician. Fuck that shit
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>>52809672
It's the only thing that makes sense.
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>>52809619
Why is that? How are they stripped down in comparison?
What emotions can Classical Music evoke that Jazz and Rock can't?
What do you mean with "mental imagery"?

Keep in mind Jazz and Rock are very young compared to Classical, with both of them having less than a hundred years of development, while Classical has more than thousand.

Also, I would like to ask you, and to reply with your own words. What is Classical Music?
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>>52809619
defining it the opposite way would be more sensible, i feel
he is patrician who, in reference to >>52809156, is reasonably well-versed in music theory, musicology, world music history, composition, et cetera, and patrician music is that which is deemed worthy by such people (ideally by the absolute majority)
you could be entirely musically illiterate yet still exclusively listen to bach, hypothetically. wouldn't make you patrish.
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>>52809763
that's not how defining something works. did you not receive a formal education? what is "patrician music"? and why?
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>>52809763
By that logic, I could say that a patrician is someone who only listens to Adkaler music.
I have no idea what Adkaler music is though.
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>>52808829
>>52808953
Musical Maturity Lesson #001: Introspect as a Means of Maximizing Success

Discovering and accepting musical biases, and employing your self-knowledge in a way conducive to the discovery and appreciation of good music
>example 1: "I really like 'x' (where 'x' can be a style, instrument, aesthetic, etc.) therefore I will seek out music with 'x' because I understand I am more likely to enjoy them."
>example 2: "I really dislike "x" (where 'x' can be a style, instrument, aesthetic, etc.) therefore I will avoid music containing 'x' for now because I understand I am less likely to enjoy them and prefer to keep my time as conducive to the discovery and appreciation of good music as possible."
It is perfectly okay (and even encouraged) to dismiss a genre of music if you hold strong bias against the prominent aesthetics that define that genre.
To imply that all genres are of equal worth, or that no genre is "devoid of good music" is a sign of both musical immaturity and unrefined taste.
>note: Accepting your musical biases does not mean to become complacent with them- quite to the contrary in fact. By pinpointing what you do and don't like, you can be much more effective in your search for good music by paying closer attention to the descriptions of and content within new musics.
>note 2: It is encouraged to be as specific and analytic with your musical biases as possible- dismissing large chunks of things merely because they fall under a vague or broad term can be a grave mistake, and putting too much on your plate at once with overly wide musical fetishes can be tiring.
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>>52809808
You don't have to have education in history and dates, or be able to recite from memory the names of each component of a song. One can still enjoy patrician music without understanding it fully, and still be able to understand and recognize that it is patrician.

>>52809768
>Why is that? How are they stripped down in comparison?
Why should deign to answer such a ridiculous question? The answer is obvious, and you already know it. I'm not going to bother answering "4" when you ask "What is 2+2?"
>What emotions can Classical Music evoke that Jazz and Rock can't?
More obscure emotions than simple love, hate, anger, and sadness. Closer to sensations rooted in emotion. Also, Rock and Jazz hardly dare to create a single song in which you experience the full spectrum of primary emotions.
>What do you mean with "mental imagery"?
if you don't conjure mental imagery when you listen to music, then I really can't explain it further without spending more time on here than I want to.

As far as "what is classical music", for this conversation I'm only taking symphonies and the like into consideration.
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Being patrician is actually listening to nothing but funk.

Just ask casper (not the friendly ghost but the holy one).
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>>52810042
I really don't think they are stripped down. They just have different structures.

>More obscure emotions than simple love, hate, anger, and sadness. Closer to sensations rooted in emotion.
Yeah, cool. What emotions?
>Also, Rock and Jazz hardly dare to create a single song in which you experience the full spectrum of primary emotions.
Progressive Rock does that. See, Faust's self titled and King Crimson's ITCOTCK

>if you don't conjure mental imagery when you listen to music, then I really can't explain it further without spending more time on here than I want to.
I do. Jazz and Rock can have imagery too. For example, Charles Mingus, Ahleuchatistas and Haniwa-Chan.

>As far as "what is classical music", for this conversation I'm only taking symphonies and the like into consideration.
Rock musicians have made Classical Music too in this case. See, Mike Keneally's The Universe Will Provide.
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>>52810042
You DO know that the emotional and mental imagery thing is completely subjective and is different to every person? Someone can see crazy images when listening to Jefferson Airplane that he won't see when hearing a bruckner symphony. Someone can feel things from listening to the beatles that he won't from listening to any other kind of music. This aspect doesn't make the music inherently good or bad.
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>>52810118
>Yeah, cool. What emotions?
Come on dude. More subtle emotions, like Wariness, or transitional and meta emotions.

>Progressive Rock does that. See, Faust's self titled and King Crimson's ITCOTCK
As much as we might consider those classics, the majority of the people in the world do not, and even in this day and age, even with Kanye using bits off a KC song, there are COUNTLESS people we encounter day in and day out who have never listened to them, and most likely have never even heard their name. This could be a regional issue on my part, I admit.

>Rock musicians have made Classical Music too in this case. See, Mike Keneally's The Universe Will Provide.
I should have clarified "before the 1900s"

Guess I'll throw my old trip on, for gits and shuggles.
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>>52807471
Patricio cara de verga aca estas
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>>52810245
correcting for accidental namefagging, and shiggles*
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>>52806744

>mfw you stop the album playing and the pi still there, fuck tinnitus
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>>52810265
quec
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>>52810212
It does make the music better, imo.

>>52810245
>Come on dude. More subtle emotions, like Wariness, or transitional and meta emotions.
And you think Jazz and Rock can't create that kind of emotions? Come on.

>As much as we might consider those classics, the majority of the people in the world do not, and even in this day and age, even with Kanye using bits off a KC song, there are COUNTLESS people we encounter day in and day out who have never listened to them, and most likely have never even heard their name. This could be a regional issue on my part, I admit.
I agree with this. Bt like I said before, that's because Rock music has had less than a hundred years of history, while Classical ha more than a thousand. In one thousand years, ITCOTCK might be considered at the same level of a lot of classical works.
Also, keep in mind when we talk about Classical Music, we only talk about European and American composers, even if there is Classical Music from all over the world. Does this mean Euro/American Classical Music is better? No, it only means it had better ways of surviving the tests of time.

>I should have clarified "before the 1900s"
The point is, what makes Classical Music Classical?
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>>52810378
>It does make the music better, imo.
It might make it more enjoyable (and it does) but it doesn't make the music better. Every different person can see and feel different things in different kinds of music, it doesn't mean shit.
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>>52810042
what i meant when i quoted the dude simply was that one would think a patrician would show an active interest to understand music to a greater extent, not just to hoard all kinds of novelties on their hard drive or analyze it merely binarily. yeah i guess one doesn't need to have studied at a conservatory for that, but still, with all the information you could crave readily available, claiming to be a le music nerd and oh you get what i mean, and that was just a not-so-fleshed-out idea so idc
or to equate "patrician" with "expert" (and "pleb" with "layman" or something), that would make sense, wouldn't it?
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>>52810245
>I should have clarified "before the 1900s"

classical music exists post-1900

lol you have no fucking idea what you are talking about
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>>52810471
Yeah, but some music has actually stronger "visuals". Some music is even designed to make you have more intense visualizations. Of course it's going to be subjective, that applies to everything, but that doesn't make it less true.
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>>52810042
>Jazz cannot create every emotion

You are a retarded dumbass idiot fat stupid retarded idiot.
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>>52810378
>And you think Jazz and Rock can't create that kind of emotions? Come on.
I never said that. Remember, we're talking exclusively about "greats" that will be passed down through the ages. Maybe opinion will change over time as mankind progresses from here, but thus far majority opinion on modern rock and jazz "greats" barely evoke anything more than primary emotions. Most can't seem to find their way past sadness.

> In one thousand years, ITCOTCK might be considered at the same level of a lot of classical works.
Yeah, that!

>The point is, what makes Classical Music Classical?
I'm only going by the modern definition of classical music that most people think of when they hear the term. The same music you hear when you turn on a "classical" radio station.
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>>52810553
you should really stop posting. you are talking in vague generalities and are equating public perception with value/worthiness far too much.
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>>52810553
Okay, tell me then.
Who are the greats of Classical, Jazz, and Rock, and how did you choose them.

>I'm only going by the modern definition of classical music that most people think of when they hear the term. The same music you hear when you turn on a "classical" radio station.
That's very vague. There are two ways of defining Classical Music, but I'm only going to say one. It's music with the intention of making complex/sophisticated music (that doesn't make the music better, but it's often the case, imo). By that definition, some Jazz and Rock works can actually be considered Classical Music.
If you disagree, I would like you to propose a good definition of classical music.

It has been cool talking to you btw
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>>52810637
>It's music with the intention of making complex/sophisticated music
looks like it's time for you to stop posting
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>>52810486
Please stop projecting more implications that cannot be logically inferred from what I said. "Classical music from before the 1900s" is the TOPIC. I never suggested classical music has not been made post-1900, and nobody but a nitwit would have translated it as such.

>>52810540
Show me some Jazz that makes you feel gallant, or maybe even disgust.

>>52810581
>equating public perception with value/worthiness far too much.
If you could comprehend the things you read better, you'd know that's not my stance, especially as it is entirely anti-patrician in nature.
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>>52810637
>>52810658
yeah I'm going to direct you to this>>52810581
as well

you both don't understand the meaning of words you are using and aren't digging deep into anything beyond misinformed semantics
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>>52806744
if listening to slant-eyed monkeys finger a broken car radio is considered patrician, i'll gladly stay a plebian
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>>52810660
>Show me some Jazz that makes you feel gallant, or maybe even disgust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wurRN0zY2o
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>>52810660
>Show me some Jazz that makes you feel gallant, or maybe even disgust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3px7v_fwTdk

I don't even like it though because I don't like to feel disgust.
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>>52810658
>>52810671
I used that definition as a way that Classical Music has been used as very vague term, but in a sense, it's true. Classical Music aims for certain complexity.
What's your definition anyways?
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just realized this thread is literally a 3-man circlejerk and that i shouldn't have even bothered posting in it
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>>52810660
As far as "what is classical music", for this conversation I'm only taking symphonies and the like into consideration.

>I should have clarified "before the 1900s"

why are you making a distinction here? do you really think rock music can be classical music?

why are you considering the historical context of classical music as being so very valuable to it being 'patrician'

bringing public consensus and canon into the mix is really silly, hence the confusion over the whole pre-1900 remark when there is a lot of classical music post-1900

>>52810757
composed music rooted in Western sacred or secular culture with a vested interest in form and instrumentation.
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>>52810760
We will miss you :3

>>52810811
Thanks, you are cool.
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>>52810709
>>52810727
I think our perception of disgust is a little different, for me those evoke irritation. To me disgust is a little more vehement.

>>52810637
I think that definition works, but for it to work in my mind, it's absolutely required to a large number of individual musicians to qualify as classical music. Full groups of wind, strings, percussion, brass, etc

And you, actually - I haven't gotten into a discussion like this on /mu/ in ages.
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>>52810757
>Classical Music aims for certain complexity.
that's depends on the composer really. Chopin wasn't always aiming for complexity for example. And the real big difference between classical music to other genres is that it's must be notated, and is composed differently to other genres. It has certain rules (that other genres don't have and that can be broken), and it consistently tries to evolve harmonically (but you can say this about some other genres too I guess).
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>>52810929
>for it to work in my mind, it's absolutely required to a large number of individual musicians to qualify as classical music. Full groups of wind, strings, percussion, brass, etc
wait you do realize classical music for solo instruments is a thing, right?
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>>52810929
>To me
Exactly, to you. To me, it's different, am I wrong?
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>>52810929
>European Echoes isn't vehement
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>>52810929
>I think that definition works, but for it to work in my mind, it's absolutely required to a large number of individual musicians to qualify as classical music.
That's just so wrong. I know you are talking about Symphonies before 1900, but still, that's an awful way of defining Classical Music.

>>52810954
Yeah, I guess you are right.
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>>52811066
Well, unless we are changing the definition of the word "disgust", then yeah I would actually say you are. By "to me" I really meant "to anyone who knows the proper requirements for 'disgust'."

>>52811095
I didn't really feel it. Maybe they are feeling it as they play, but it's not coming across on my end.

>>52811099
My definition is very narrow, I know. But then again, so is the rest of my mind.
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>>52811249
>"to anyone who knows the proper requirements for 'disgust'."
how the fuck do you know what I felt when i listened to it? jesus because you don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. The fact that we're even having this discussion is completely ridicules. What are some pieces that can objectively me feel disgust?
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>>52811323
>how the fuck do you know what I felt when i listened to it?
Because you linked it to me when I called for "disgust" or "gallant", and I seriously doubt that made you feel gallant. If you felt disgust at what I felt irritation, then I'd say it has something to do with sensitivity.
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>>52811409
Post some pieces to make me feel disgust then. It's honestly retarded that you would doubt what I felt during that song.
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>>52811463
I'm not saying you didn't feel disgust. I'm saying my conclusion is that in order to feel disgust, less is required for you than it is for me. You reach that state of emotion (at least in regards to that particular song) much quicker than me. In fact I never got to that point, and only achieved irritation as I said. I think it's because you are disgusted by being irritated perhaps?
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>>52811619
just post some pieces that can cause disgust so we can wrap this up it's getting late and i need to sleep
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>>52811668
I only listed disgust as an emotion not commonly covered in generic popular rock and jazz. I don't really know any music that evoke disgust from me honestly, even in classical music
>>
Oh you know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jU9mJbJsQ8
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>>52811724
ok so you had no idea what you were talking about all along. goodnight
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>>52811724
lol
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>>52806784
That really does sound terrible. Musique concrete is total bullshit.
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>>52811830
I don't see how you can say that.
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>>52812116
You
> both Jazz and Rock can hardly claim to evoke the same range of emotions classical masterpieces.
>Show me some Jazz that makes you feel gallant, or maybe even disgust

Him
>just post some pieces that can cause disgust

You
>I only listed disgust as an emotion not commonly covered in generic popular rock and jazz. I don't really know any music that evoke disgust from me honestly, even in classical music

You were wrong on your first post.
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>>52812439
what about punk music? or rock in opposition? could those convey disgust? such as with society or the like?
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>>52812559
That's his argument, not mine.
But yeah, I guess RIO and European Free Jazz can both create disgust. Maybe some contemporary classical too.
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>>52812642
o ya i wasn't paying attention just had a thought.
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>>52812669
It's cool. Albert Marcoeur's self titled is definitely disgusting.
Do you have any other albums in mind?
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