This thread earlier about Kind of Blue being bad gave me cancer. Lets fix that - Miles Davis appreciation edition.
I consider hard bop to be jazz from late '50s onward characterized by fast tempos 150+ and bebop licks, but not necessarily progressions. for example, tune up is hard bop, but it's just a turn around in D for four bars, then a turn around in C for four bars, then a turn around in Bb for four bars The fist ending is E- F Bb A which is not classic bebop at all. the second ending is another turn around in D.
Kind of blue is modal, but that's less of a genre description I'd argue. Kind of blue is cool jazz/ west coast jazz which tends to be slower and more focused on arrangements than soloing. Given the tempos of the tracks, especially on so what and all blues. Blue in green doesn't really count because ballads aren't out of place in hard bop.
I hope this makes sense, I'm a musician, not an author
This is a dumb question. A lot of jazz doesn't fit neatly into one "style." Most of the styles weren't even defined and given a name until long after the fact. Labeling albums into subgenres of jazz can be helpful for discussing them but arguing about what style they are is a waste of time.
Kind of Blue has elements of hard bop: swing and a lot of influence from the blues and bebop. Cannonball in particular has a particularly bebop-y, bluesy sound, largely influenced by Charlie Parker, and Wynton Kelly's playing on Freddie Freeloader is also very much in the hard bop tradition. Some of the compositions are modal-based, and Coltrane's playing very much reflects that and the modal direction that he was headed. Bill Evans' chords are also a good example of the modal flavor of the album, voicing things in fourths and planing the chords diatonically.
Kind of Blue also has some elements of "cool jazz"- a relaxed, laid-back swing feel and medium and down-tempos. Miles' soloing also really embodies that "cool" style with highly melodic, succinct phrasing and holding out long notes and leaving a lot of space in between his phrases.
These guys never really went into the studio thinking "today I'm going to record a hard bop album!" They went in there and played their music. Often it was very influenced by what other players of the day were doing, hence the "styles" that we group them into, but the music speaks for itself.
>tfw nobody ever wants to talk about Miles' best group
one of 70s Davis best album with Agharta and Pangaea
listening to this atm, french maoists invited some black panthers musicians to play
it's never too late anon. just learn how to read in two clefs and then learn how to build chords and learn implications. Jazz is all about implications. There's really no other way to say it
you're on 4chan instead of learning theory. It's a labor of love. If it's more fun for you than 4chan, then you'll see your priorities change. And if I'm on /mu/ I'll be willing to help. There's also a couple of tripfags who are good at music. poly style loving symphony something thing is good for classical, and jtg is also good at theory
Jazz is cancer, though.
Only bad musicians and non-musicians like jazz, there is nothing to appreciate.
>and jtg is also good at theory
Jazz theory isn't theory.
>this guy again
does your main hobby consists in refreshing the catalog until you find a jazz thread to derail ?
I browse 4chan from my phone mostly, it's not soaking too much of my time, usually. I played some piano so I can read basic sheets, I guess I could read up and expand my knowledge from a time to time.
Do you happen to know any good online resources for this? One or two for me to start with is more than enough.
unfortunately I have lectures to attend, a thesis to work on, and I am also a part time teacher in junior high to earn some money and pay the rent, so no. I do see you often trying to derail threads when I'm home and take a break from work on /jazz/ though, hence my question about your shitposting dedication
I guess musictheory.net but I'm largely self taught. A good portion of theory is scales and applications. Why should I use the dorian scale instead of the natural minor over a minor chord? Why should I use a flat seventh instead of a leading tone? Why is the altered scale so perfect? (That last one is a personal preference)
Just listen and learn and analyze as much music as possible. Learning classical shit will help out a ton. Classical four part writing is one of the hardest things in music but your voice leading will be enhanced, your ear will be enhanced, it's really the perfect study tool
>Classical four part writing is one of the hardest things in music but your voice leading will be enhanced, your ear will be enhanced, it's really the perfect study tool
This. Everybody should analyze 100 Bach chorales and write some 4 part chorales of their own before starting learning jazz theory. It makes things so much easier. Nobody has the patience for it though.
I don't know if 25 is considered schoolboy anymore, but whatever
since you look like a big boy musicman, I can give you one of my teacher's mail, he's a Berlioz and opera specialist, and plays the piano for different orchestras, maybe you can talk with him and stop trying to troll this thread
>unfortunately I have lectures to attend,
High schoolers love to pretend they're in university.
Only a high schooler would believe any modern school teaches music properly, it's all wank worship.
You may as well take a hip hop or rock class.
ok bud, by the way, could you tell me the implications of oliver nelson's hexatonic scale in his solo on stolen moments from the blues and the abstract truth? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaGDDbpcQ4
>tfw I fell for the shitty troll
Why are you even still responding?
Guarantee his response will be something about how the solo can be analyzed as "wank" and how it's not worth his time to analyze.
It's pathetically predictable.
jesus christ no wonder you dont like jazz, you can't even take the time to read a sentence properly.
Children sure love to call everything that goes against their childish ideology "trolling"
There's nothing to analyze, you were sent on a goosechase by a wanker.
Neither do you, damned illiterate ape.
Jazz wank is though, you attention whore.
Grow up already, you are wasting time and money on some piss-poor junkie's practice sessions.
Wank is wank you illiterate, now go study, high school music electives sure are tough!
I fell hard for the bait. I couldn't help it. This album was pretty good though, Oliver Nelson doesn't get enough love here.
this is my favorite song of his, but all of the maj7 chords might get boring. they move in such an interesting way though
>It's pathetically predictable.
Just like jazz.
>you can't even take the time to read a sentence properly.
But isn't that what you love about jazz?
Nobody likes jazz, it lacks anything of merit.
It's all about the image.
Did your freebleeding ethics/music teacher teach you that robust debate technique?
Sweetie, not everybody criticizing your substanceless, simplistic coon music is le trole.
>they move in such an interesting way though
Maybe if you're 10.
so, you don't want my teacher's mail ? he published several books about classical music for big boys, I'm REALLY sure you would be better talking with him instead of us filthy jazz enthusiasts
I loooovve ECM covers
When I asked how to play solo piano my teacher gave me a book of Bach chorales. One of the best things to happen in my life
Anyway, what's your favorite wank? Mine is Pennies from Heaven by Stan Getz with the Oscar Peterson Trio
hey what's going on in this thread
>he published several books about classical music for big boys
Classical music doesn't exist though.
Your filthy leftist cocksucker of a professor hasn't published anything.
Why would I need help from an uneducated teenager?
I am in the right, the brats in this thread are not.
Nobody defending wankery is in the right.
That is a cool tune. Sounds like the kind of tune that's fun to blow over. Also probably the most Coltrane influence I've ever heard from Oliver Nelson. I don't think all the maj7 chords get boring when they move in such unpredictable ways, especially between the two different sections.
This would make a really cool tune to arrange. I think the second time through the melody you could do a really cool reharm.
Victor Feldman on the piano... I haven't listened to him a lot but I really liked the way he started out his solo. I don't have that record but I'll have to get it.
some ebin post-repetitive shitposting from the always classy /classical/
here you go my good sir : http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=emmanuel+reibel
I'm such a stan getz fanboy.
my favorite wank is any thing Chris Potter plays by himself.
his tune up is also pretty cool
Oliver Nelson is sooooo underrated in the jazz world. He's a dynamite arranger and his records are always fun to listen to. His lineups are also very good
You seem like an underage attention whore.
No, you're a leftist.
You don't love jazz, you love the image.
Thanks for proving my point.
How? I'm the only one discussing music here, you're all grandstanding and promoting addiction
What a robust debate technique
Do you know Fred Hersch? One of the best solo piano players around imo. I guess the only two books he has his students buy are Bach's 2 and 3 part inventions and the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Speaking of which... I need to get my book of Bach inventions back out and start working through it again.
I really like the way Bill Evans wanks. Such a great sense of motivic development and rhythmic displacement over swing feel. Chris Potter is another of my favorite wankers, he has maybe the greatest sense motivic development of any soloist I've ever heard.
Why are pretending to be an obnoxious proponent of right-wing ideology in order to further scare away an otherwise indifferent bunch of nerds from said ideology?
Please. Just stop responding to him. No doubt he will continue to post but let's just smirk and move on.
>to publish: 1 Prepare and issue (a book, journal, or piece of music) for public sale
so, these rectangular shaped objects made of paper with words printed on it, with his name on the first page and that are for public sale are not books? damn, you just learned me something
also, please point me where you discuss music (remember! saying jazz is wankery isn't discussing music!)
we need to have a jazz reaction thread. There's so many good ones
Why are you leftists so ignorant?
Denying the truth won't fix your problem.
You brats need to grow up and out of your fascination with musical masturbation.
You may as well be listen to Yngwie.
>(remember! saying jazz is wankery isn't discussing music!)
Criticizing the core of a genre is music discussion
Yeah I've always really liked Oliver Nelson's arrangements and compositions, though I've never been that impressed with him as a soloist. I did really like his solo on that tune you posted though.
Have you ever heard this one? I listened to it not too long ago and it was pretty interesting, the solos were kind of a letdown though I think.
Speaking of Chris Potter- what do you think is your favorite solo of his where he's playing with a rhythm section? and what do you think about Michael Brecker? How different do you think Potter's career would be if Brecker was still alive?
I played for him at a masterclass... over 4 years ago now. Damn. Hard to believe it was that long ago.
I recommend his Alone at the Vanguard record and FH plays Jobim if you haven't heard those. Bossa is always kind of a challenge to play solo on piano.
Hey JTG, have you heard Eric Harland's "Voyager: Live by Night"? I've been listening to it a bit recently and quite like it. Very nice, non avant-garde contemporary jazz. Have any idea what else I should look into? I also enjoy Kurt Rosenwinkel's output.
I have not, but I liked last tango in paris, which featured gato barbieri with nelson's arrangements, but I'll give that a listen. Gato is on the smooth side of jazz, so I can imagine his solos being on the weak side, but his tone is so cool.
And on Chris Potter, I would say everyone. They're just so dense with ideas and his playing is so bright and happy. to be honest, I don't listen to enough brecker. Where should I start?
Yeah it's great. I think Harland does some of his best drumming on Alex Sipiagin's Destinations Unknown, actually it's some of the most dynamic and reactive drumming I've ever heard. And personally I just think the compositions and solos are a little stronger than on that Voyager record.
You might also want to check out Ari Hoenig's Live at Small's record. It reminds me of that Voyager album in a lot of ways.
...none come to mind... I feel like Clare Fischer might have a solo bossa album but I don't have it. One of my old teachers used to have a book of bossa etudes for solo piano by Clare Fischer but I'm pretty sure it's long out of print.
Gato Barbieri is a cool cat, you should listen to more of his albums
I found one whose title is Just me: solo piano excursions, is it this one?
I have this on vinyl. I had never heard of him before and the cover was so alluring I had to get it. it was around a 14/20. A cool listen, but nothing stood out as being original or technically impressive
If you like Chris Potter, you'll definitely want to check Brecker out. It almost wouldn't be exaggerating to say that Potter pretty much stole Brecker's tone on tenor. I'd say Potter tends toward playing motivically with melodies, while Brecker tends more toward the stream-of-consciousness playing but you'll notice a lot of similarities between the two I'm sure.
To be honest, I'm still trying to delve more into Brecker's music, he has a ridiculously large discography as a sideman. Seriously.. check out his wikipedia page, you just keep scrolling down. Try and find albums where he's playing with fairly traditional, acoustic setups with other guys who are known for being post-bop guys.
His record "Tales from the Hudson" is really good, and also check him out on Hal Galper's "Reach Out" and "Speak With a Single Voice." He's also great on Kenny Wheeler's "Double Double You."
do you have Chapter one or Caliente! on vinyl ? I've haven't heard the latter, so I won't be able to give my point of view
but I do agree a lot of his covers are quite strange. Imagine seeing this in the crates
It might be... I just remember my teacher playing a few bossas by Fischer from his ipod at one point. Looks like maybe not every track is a bossa though.
Fischer's stuff can be pretty hard to find though, a lot of it was never reissued on CD.
thank you for the help and the recs, I'm looking forward to finding a new tenor player to obsess over. and the way you described brecker's playing
>stream of consciousness
is a really interesting way to describe it.
I have Caliente! it's on the smoother side of things, it isn't inherently bad, but it's not stimulating, you know?
well, I'll check it out and download if available then, thanks for the info
I see what you mean
Yeah Brecker plays on a lot of records that sound a little "dated" these days, but his playing is almost always superb. I think that "stream-of-consciousness" thing comes from Coltrane mostly, who Brecker was very inspired by. It's sort of a different approach than the playing with melodic fragments that Potter usually does, but Potter definitely taps into that stream of consciousness approach at times and Brecker definitely uses a more melodic approach sometimes too.
Chris Potter just did an interview in Downbeat where he talks about why he switched to tenor, when he started out on alto originally. He said that he was so inspired by Charlie Parker that he felt like when he played the alto he just couldn't hear anything but Charlie Parker, so he tried out the tenor to give him more options. Pretty interesting.
Also how do you think this will be? I guess it's an extension of his underground band, adding a string quartet and Steve Nelson on vibes.
January 6. I'm excited
Can you guys reccomend some good Christmas/smooth winter jazz similar to
this? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gmiSPMHrWQ
cool, has it become a thing again to add a string section to jazz ? I know Parker did it of course, but after that the only ones I know are yugoslav and from the 70s, and then some Thierry Maillard albums up to this year and Chris Potter in 2015
I don't know.. I wouldn't mind that necessarily. I think it'd be better than this trend of adding wordless female vocals to everything. Vijay Iyer had an interesting record this year with a string quartet... I wouldn't even necessarily call it jazz though. It's more like classical music with some improvisation.
Gil Goldstein was always good at arranging strings sections in jazz settings though.
>I wouldn't even necessarily call it jazz though. It's more like classical music with some improvisation
on that I would agree. I just looked up Goldstein's page because I didn't know the guy, and it looks interesting... dammit I have no time enough for all that jazz
I'm not hugely familiar with Goldstein... but a lot of the times when I hear jazz with nicely arranged strings he ends up being behind it.
Pic related is great though... plus coincidentally it features Chris Potter and Randy Brecker
well thanks I guess that will be a good introduction
however it's time for me to hit the bed since I have to wake up early tomorrow, so I'll just listen to some piano while falling asleep for now. have a good evening man
This is a great one