GODDAMN 33 episodes in, and I can't pin down if this guy

You ever played Shin Megami Tensei IV?

He's basically Walter.

>>13822214
>wants to rule, wants to be a dick, wants to help people, or wants to crush the "weak"

All of it.

>>13822218
I have not.

I will now.

You can't really explain Kaito

All you can say is that he wants TSUYOSA

>>13822220
Well shit.

What about his weak friends? Or does he, in his own way, believe that he only befriends people who are strong?

Does that mean he thinks Mai is strong, or does it mean that he's softer than he's willing to admit?

>>13822228
He thinks Mai is strong in her own way

>>13822214
Basically, he believes that the strong crushing the weak is the natural course of the world and that can't be changed. He admires people who seek strength and to improve themselves, while disliking weak ones that conspire against others for their own survival (Yggdrazil's superiors and their plan to genocide humanity in secret)

However, even though he sees the strong ruling the weak or being the only survivors as natural and the only path, he doesn't really -like it-, he sees it as a cruel reality and considers the ones that deny it fools.

>>13822264
Oh

OH

Okay, it's making sense to me now. Thanks broheim.

His interactions with Micchy past a certain point are always great scenes.

>he didn't clash with Takatora on regular basis
That always bothered me.

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>>13822366
>Hey Micchy, you suck for treating the girl (I forgot her name) as an object
>Proceed to treat the girl as an object

>Hey Micchy, genocide suck and you suck
>Spend the entire show making genocidal rants

>>13822264
That's somewhat my impression of him as well. I think people merely got mislead when he discovered that the forbidden fruit can change natural rules and wants it to make a world where the weak will not be oppressed by the strong, which is only slightly confusing because he only expressed it after he became Lord Baron. However, it does make sense with his character, just that by that logic, he's fine if he loses to Kouta because he knows Kouta is a strong person who sympathizes with the weak, and that his way of power is meant for oppressing the very tyranny that Kaito might end up making if he was reckless like the past Overlords.

>>13822381
Takatora was incredibly underused as a whole. It really sucked since he was an interesting character.

>>13822399
I think Takatora would have risked either breaking the story or losing a lot of what made him cool if he'd been around too much. He was basically a reasonable authority figure who was badass enough to go up against opponents he should have had no business matching just by mechanical specs. If he'd spent a lot of time around, either they would have had to make him start jobbing or a lot of the conflicts in the later sections of the show would have ceased to exist. And since there has to be a show, he probably would have done some jobbing, which would have cut away at his coolness.

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>>13822399
And he was a main character!

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>>13822214
He's filename.

>>13822228
He loves his friends

>>13822389
Right? Solid gold.

Equal in their dickish-ness, but nearly complete opposites in their methods.

>>13822429
The worst part is Hawktigerman doesn't even use regular Zangetsu more than, I think, like two or three times?

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>>13822458
>Hawktigerman

>>13822458

Two or three times, then he goes back to it briefly late in the series. He also uses it again in the Gaim/Drive movie and throughout Zangetsu Gaiden before he uses Watermelon.

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Kaito its a shit like all gaim, none of the fucking characters makes sense, you can feel better the comic relief ones than kouta or michy, its the same urobuttshit as always.

takatora is a goo character thowho get fucking killed everytime he can shine

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>the show is about maturity
>kouta you have to give out things to save others
>lol no im gonna change the rules of the universe

>the enemey of the show its literally the nature, a neutral force.
>nah forgot about it we have evil monsters bosses now

why does people defend this shit, even ghost its better than this, and it is a half hour weekly toy comercial

>>13822848
Oh man, I miss AG's interaction with that magnificient bastard.

As bad as OOO's was towards the end because they forgot to write an actual plot the ride itself was the most fun I ever had with a Kamen Rider show (only rivaled by Fourze which I just couldn't take for anything but the Kamen Rider equivalent to Akibaranger as fun as it was)

>>13823483
OOO was great characters wise, the forgot where they going, and it had the best horrible cgi final battle I saw.

>>13823512
Didn't they make a director's cut of the last two episodes?

>>13823544
I dont know about that

>>13823557
http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Kamen_Rider_OOO:_Final_Episode
They did.

>>13823571
gotta watch them then, I really like OOO

>>13822214
He wants to create a world where strength doesnt really matter so the strong wont abuse the weak.

And by "strong" and "weak" he doesnt mean literal physical strength. This is obvious but most people here didnt get it when Gaim aired so its worth pointing out.

>>13822228
>What about his weak friends?
They are a stepping stone to him getting power, which he initially tried to do by having the best beat rider team. He appreciates them though, at least Zack and Peco(the others maybe too but dont really get focus).

>Does that mean he thinks Mai is strong, or does it mean that he's softer than he's willing to admit?
There's an episode dedicated to this, he at first understimates Mai and then starts to appreciate her strength.

>>13822399
Agree, although I hate his suits.

>>13822427
I never thought that much about it, but you're probably right.

>>13822214
He'll spill his guts during the finale
it still won't make sense

>>13822264
nice fanfiction

>>13822429
>>13822458

I basically see how Zangetsu gets used as a product of Urobuchi doing what he wanted with the story and not being locked in entirely by the merchandising plans. Urobuchi was given some freedom to do this in a way further than any of the other recent writers have (or have tried pushing).

From a merchandising standpoint - and some of the producer's comments prior to the series (comparing him to Ouja etc) - Zangetsu was designed as a prominent villain. He had an undersuit that mirrored Gaim's, and was the only other Rider with a planned upgrade (Shin).

>>13822381

Takatora would kick his fucking ass. See, Takatora's character arc is that he believes that there's no other way. If he ever met Baron, Baron would probably go "Okay, you're right. You just beat the shit out of me, so - as might makes right - you probably have the best idea."

The thing about Takatora is that he can't know about all the devious shit that's happening behind his back. The double melon is still the best thing ever, though.

>>13822214

Man, I really liked him. He worked for his power, while Kouta got everything handed to him.

My theory is that DJ Sagara gave Kouta so many advantages, because he's seen the pattern play out so many times. Usually, one guy murders everyone else then rules his species from a throne of skulls. No self-awareness whatsoever, it's always murder, murder, murder then becoming Sauron.

Kouta is a new, and interesting take on what someone's seen a million times before. He's also a moron, and he would have died dozens of times over if not for his overwhelming advantage. It's like how he handles most of Micchy's plotting, not through intelligence but just by busting headfirst through it.

>>13823734
At the same time though, we know that originally Urobuchi intended to make Baron constantly stronger than Gaim, a goal for him to reach, but changed things around, making Baron generally weaker, because Bandai didn't want a Rider with big presence stronger than Gaim.

Zangetsu's smaller presence is probably a result of that too. He was stronger than Gaim, but only appeared a few times, so didn't risk overshadowing him.

>>13822869
Sounds like you didn't understand the show at all. The main goal happened. The Golden fruit. They just had to fight through a lot of shit to get to it. Kouta decided there was always another way to fix things.

>>13823998
The idea was that Kouta was a retard, so he could compensate for that by being stronger than Micchy and Kaito who can use their brains to win the notTatakae.

It was an interesting idea(sort of similar to Ryuki's but in there Kanzaki just wanted Shinji and Raia to get their shit together, in Gaim was balance for the sake of balance) but badly executed since Kouta got way more powerful than the other two(they had to state that Micchy became stronger by having Shin Zangetsu+giving his all).

It sort of works out in the end because Micchy gets yomotsuheguri arms and Kaito becomes an overlord, but not thanks to Sagara.

>>13824312
>but badly executed since Kouta got way more powerful than the other two
That was a Bandai directive though like I mentioned above. It's referenced in the Gaim Japanese wikipedia page, with a source named even.

>>13823734
>Ouja

If he was in Gaim, dear God..

>>13824357
>That was a Bandai directive though like I mentioned above.
They could have easily worked out around that.
Foreshadow Kaito's transformation by making Sagara know about it in advance.
Make Sagara give Yomotsuheguri to Micchy, so it also explains why it can use overlord weapons (I still cant totally believe yomotsuheguri was a writers upgrade, it was way too stupid) AND balances the three fighters out.
Tadah, everything makes sense, its well executed and that doesnt even require changing the fighs between them we already got.

>>13822389
>Kaito sees Mai as an object!
Kaito says he sees Mai and the Golden Fruit as the same. Thus, Mai has earned it through her own strength which makes Kaito hard for her.

>yfw Micchy was stronger than Kaito

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>>13824906
Kaito was Gaim's Sasuke. Not only for the edgy crap but because he received power ups from air just because Urobutcher loved him so fucking much. It always piss me off the DJ guy claimed to be neutral but give all the toys to Kouta but at least there was a reason behind the power ups.

>>13824906
Micchy at his best could only give Kouta a fight by having a one time power up that put his life at risk.

Kaito could fight Kouta properly without risk.

>>13824925
>but because he received power ups from air just because Urobutcher loved him so fucking much.
>Mango is taken from Helheim, consistent with Gaim's lore
>OOO arms was part of a power up the main 4 got.
>Lemon is given from Ryoma so he could stop jobbing and be useful to him
>Lord Baron is eaten by Kaito himself
Only apple arms was given "from air".

>>13822214
He is a Nobunaga-expy.
He thinks the worlds sucks, wants to destroy it then remake it.

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>>13825110
What about that time where Kaito and Kouta had to run away from a crazed Micchy?

>>13825174
That was before Kaito got to be at his max.

>>13822218

He exists to contradict Jonathan?

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>>13825153
Why did Kouta get the Nobunaga suit then?

>>13824925
>It always piss me off the DJ guy claimed to be neutral but give all the toys to Kouta but at least there was a reason behind the power ups.

Sagara was neutral in the sense that he had no horse in the race - he didn't care who won the fight overall. He was interested in what Kouta would bring to the fight though, hence why he gave him more and more power.

>>13824503
>Foreshadow Kaito's transformation by making Sagara know about it in advance.
Sagara does tell Kouta that people like Kaito usually either die stupidly, or achieve a really dangerous power.

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>>13825628
Kiwami isn't Nobunaga, it's Uesugi Kenshin

>>13822214
The series plans changed so much, Urobuchi was practically rewriting stuff on set.

Original Kaito was supposed to be unbeatable with Kouta gradually getting on his level after each upgrade. That said, the lines he says take a different meaning when he jobs all the time.
Either way he wants to create a utopia where the weak don't have to fear the strong and that requires destroying the old world.

Micchy was supposed to be the anti-rider, someone who abuses his power every chance he gets, he wasn't planned to be redeemed originally.

>>13824279
looks like you have low standarts.

>>13826207
>Either way he wants to create a utopia where the weak don't have to fear the strong and that requires destroying the old world.

The issue with his "utopia" is that it basically meant transforming everyone into Invess-like monsters. Mai says that in his world there wouldn't be "weak" or "old", while showing a city in ruins, covered in Helheim vines.

>>13826248
Yes, some might call a world where the weak aren't trampled a utopia, but the lengths you would have to go through to accomplish that defeats the purpose.
It reminded me of the shijima ending from Nocturne.

>>13824925

I don't really agree. I think Kaito genuinely earned his powerups - And it's not like he had a lot! He had Mango, which actually had to pull double-duty as a super-form for him (He hits INSANELY hard as Mango, and is depicted as more powerful every time.)

Then he gets the Lemon belt, which is about as generic as you can get. Lord Baron is great, though.

In contrast, Kouta gets a shitload of Arms Changes, Jinba Lemon, Kachidoki, then Kiwami. That is a LOT of powers.

I honestly think that Micchy should have kept Yomi Arms as his 'final form', and only gradually lost his life-force over the final episodes. Seriously, nothing Micchy did came to anything, and he was ridiculously outclassed in fighting. Ryugen is crap, he never used his Kiwi form (They even cannibalized it for the Yomi suit) and Zangetsu-Shin didn't work out too well for him either.