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What makes for entire artistic mediums to...
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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature

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What makes for entire artistic mediums to be regarded as second citizens?

by that I mean writing for cartoons.

Why the stigma?

would you consider stuff like evangelion to be well written?
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I'm probably going to get shit on for this, but: Good writing can come from anywhere. Good fiction is good fiction my dude.

We learn the basics of story writing and literary technique in school, and if any form of creativity (story telling for example) has these present, executes them well and then attempts to differentiate itself, I'd consider it good writing.

The stigma is that often times cartoons DON'T have these things. They're funny and flashy and cheap and good for entertainment. That's what they're made for. If you watch a cartoon that's clever, makes witty jokes, shows logical progression of character arcs, plot, has interesting themes and messages, then yeah, it can be well written.

>would you consider stuff like evangelion to be well written?
Yes.

I talked a lot about how good writing includes needed literary elements, but I also take things like tone into account too. Fuck, I consider TTGL good writing. It's a lot more subtle, but the entire message is wrapped up beautifully in some hard driving robot action that has me out of my seat screaming for the good guys to win. It doesn't leave you blue-balled from a literary standpoint either. This can be good writing too.

Or consider this: The Stranger, by Camus, is a Nobel Prize winner for literature. Yet you read it and Camus' prose is rather droll and boring. It get's by on it's messages. And then you re-read it and realize that the boring and dry prose is intentional and beautifully befitting of Meursault and of the world he inhabits, that you come realize that the slate-gray world Camus created is so vibrant and perfect, even just the little splashes of color he adds in are like being shot to the moon.

TL;DR: Write well in any medium you can, combine your setting and style and tone and blow a kneecap off the world.
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>>7658225
I have watched lately stuff like South Park and the simpsons and It's clear the writers of those shows know their shit.
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>>7658233
Anon this is what I'm saying. WE recognize good writing. Even children do.

I went to go see The Good Dinosaur with my gf and obviously there were kids there. But at the end it had the kids crying and my gf crying and I was trying to pick apart the characters and themes.

The point I'm trying to make is: We recognize a well told story even if we're young. We need to be made to care about our characters, we want to know what they stand for and why they do it. The author wants to tell us something important and he needs to harmonize his message between the underlying mechanics of his writing and his themes.

South Park is alright, it's very very blunt in what it does, but it can be enjoyable. The Simpsons are decently funny, and I can tell you, it takes a lot more talent writing to write a consistently good show (until like season 9 that is) than it does to shit post on /lit/. Even being able to flesh out characters and the world of springfield in such flowing subtly is the hallmark of decent writing.

Good fiction is good fiction wherever you go man.
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>>7658225

There's definitely a certain stigma behind cartoons, but I think we can that it's largely propagated by the ignorant. For example, Avatar had incredibly deep and realized characters with mature (if child friendly) themes. Aang's struggles to reconcile his faith with his duty as the Avatar was more mature and thoughtful than almost the supposedly "adult" entertainment available during the shows time.
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>>7658206
the more by necessity collaborative a medium, the less it will be taken seriously as art, as there's not only the first barrier of creator/receiver but also the barrier between creators, whether hierarchical or otherwise

this can be partially broken down by incredibly detailed instructions, which works basically for composers, but cartoons...

anyway, i end up judging mediums on a sliding scale. if a cartoon did half as well as a book, writing-wise i would be astounded and thus impressed

lately when i watched an animated film due to i have been noticing the obvious joy that the artists take in drawing specific scenes, while not taking pleasure from the movie as such, this being an example of seeing the beauty in another's joyful expression rather than the composite product

i haven't watched evangelion, but i think i would probably be torn between "some people think this is good, why is it so bad" and "for a cartoon this is mindblowing", basically, special olympics
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>>7658253
Mhmmm, I feel you. He was a pacifist struggling against his duties as guardian of the world. A reluctant hero type. But I'm very glad you brought up Avatar, because while I liked it, I think back to one point of writing that irks me: The Lion Turtle Deus Ex Machina.

I'm not trying to get an Avatar discussion going, I'm using this point of shitty writing to explain what I mean: We (I) got pissed when this bullshit was thrown in to fix Aang's moral dilemma. This is something that throws Avatar into the ring of contested writing, doesn't it? It suddenly becomes a literary object to dissect and discuss. THAT is writing. That's writing that isn't always IN cartoons.

Though I don't think you can TRULY compare cartoons to literature. Yes there are some well written cartoons, but literature has a much longer heritage, much more creative liberty, and is much more cemented in our minds. Like >>7658258 says, I don't think there really are Cartoons that can rival literature. There are many that are extremely well told, there are some (anime) that has me on the edge of my seat or out of it with fists in the air, but literature does all that and then some.

>>7658258
>i haven't watched evangelion
It's kinda flavor-of-the-week villain stuff with heavy religious themes. Then it all builds up to this bioptic character analysis relating it back to the central themes of happiness, self determination, solipsism(?), and meaningful human interaction. Also has to do with motherhood and the womb being vessels for perfection.

It's actually a decent little show if you want to pick it apart, and crucial to watch if you like anime or /m/ stuff in general.
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I always enjoy how anime is the most advanced form of animation, and tries to be more artistic than american or european animation in general.

anime covers a wide range of topics, from child pornography to even political and philosophical dabblings in some shows.

I really enjoyed stuff like madoka that deconstruct an entire genre of anime and there's stuff like OPM where it makes fun of overused tropes for a good effect.
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>>7658317
Bruh I know you mean well but take the anime discussion to /a/.
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>>7658290

Evangelion doesn't have any religious themes that I am aware of, only random Abrahamic imagery which the creators admitted to have thrown in only to make the show appear exotic to their audience.
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>>7658346
Sorry it's been a while since I've seen it. I thought the whole jig was immaculate conception in the "womb" of the Evas and how the characters are at peace/happy and shit like that

Maybe I'm just stretching it.
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>tfw truly believe in the storytelling potential of video games but the standards for "good writing" are so low relative to other mediums that it's almost embarrassing
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>>7658420
vidya has potential as a form but it's seeped in peurile culture and gamers, even of the more aware type on /v/, lack the tools to apply lit theory or critique and balk at even the hint of intellectualization
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>>7658420
Dark Souls is astonashing, i heard good things about Mother, too, but unsure if it's just 'good for a game'.
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>>7658420
You haven't played the right ones, pic related, best bit of second-person fictional writing that exists.

Some modern games can do this too. Red Dead Redemption is better than a lot of Western movies and novels, and Witcher series kept the spirit of the books very well.

Most of it is shit though.

And yes OP, I agree that animation can be a great medium for storytelling in the hands of a good director/writer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz49vQwSoTE
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>>7658456

Mother is just a good game. There is little to no story and all the characters arcs and stories end as soon as they join your group.
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>>7658455
I agree. For the entirety of the medium's existence, the focus has been almost overwhelmingly on pure entertainment and "fun" for so long that it's created a relatively immature culture. The worst part is that, for the most part, any exceptions to that culture (e.g. the pretentious pseudointellectuals who praise stuff like Gone Home) only further prove the rule by creating a false dichotomy where nobody wins.

>>7658470
I wasn't trying to say there are no well-written games - far from it. There are a handful with quality stories. My main problem at this point is that what is generally considered "good writing" these days in video games really isn't, or at least, isn't good at much more than entertaining a player in the moment or providing a nice little reward between sections of gameplay.
The distinction between the player's story and the character's story - in other words, - story versus gameplay - is another issue which I feel like deserves a lot more exploration.
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>>7658420
If games actually used their mechanics and systems to help still stories instead of imitating other mediums, maybe they would be more respected as a story-telling medium. Take a look at games like Undertale, Papers Please, or Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. They know how to marry the literal feeling of the button on your finger tips with the ups and downs of the narrative. They establish a set of rules and intentionally break them to develop characters and move the plot forward. There's a reason movies that mostly utilize dialogue or text while slacking on visuals would get a slap in the face from viewers and critics; why can't we hold games to a higher standard?
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>>7658556
I agree with everything you said.

Most games use story as a reward or interlude without integrating gameplay in any meaningful way. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it just devalues the narrative and creates a disconnect that doesn't help immersion or player agency.
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>>7658206
People who think only x can be of artistic merit just really like masturbating(mentally)
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>>7658206
Evangelion is famous for waifus and slick direction. Royal Space Force was more interesting.

>>7658470
Fucking Planescape: Torment. Even by isometric rpg standards that game his some shitty-ass combat. I think that a mod which turns a key on my keyboard into a "kill everything hostile on screen" button would significantly improve that game.
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