>Argue against Blanchardianism dozens of times, maybe even

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I have fought against so many dumb ideas and misinformation here. It ultimately is just a pipe dream thing. little if any change ever happens and unless you get a group of 10+ other people to also post at the same time you will never make a dent in the ignorance.

>>8584537
Sorry, I can't help it, nothing about transness makes sense without Blanchardianism.

>>8584576
Still haven't seen you comment on the whole intersex thing btw.

>>8584576
this
i and probably most blanchardians aren't super orthodox or anything but not much about transsexuality makes sense if you deny there being two (rough) types

>>8584537
That's some real intellectual dedication you've got there OP. More than I'd expect from a female...

>>8584587
What intersex thing? I've been mostly offline for some time, so I may have missed it.

>>8584611
Yup. Even the smart anti-Blanchardians admit that there's two types:
https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2017/04/18/against-blanchardianism/

I feel like blancard-ism is a more legit explanation than "trannies are right"

a bit like the logic of pic related, except
>I believe "trans" is the least plausible of all the theories

Whatever flaws blanchard-ism may have (doubtful it's even a fully self-consistent and comprehensive worldview), the alternative is actual pure self-evident bullshit and so it's got to at least approximate the truth

>>8584624
>Ozy
>smart

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>>8584537
4chan is virulently anti-intellectual and also spooks make the highly complex nature of reality easier to comprehend specially when communicated through idiotic memes.

It's essentially impossible to put a dent in this because 4channers will always opt for the simplest ideas which justify their own often highly irrational feelings. In the case of the AGP spook, it's a pathological self-hatred.

>>8584629
>4chan is virulently anti-intellectual
t. Communist

>>8584537
iktf anon, I feel like I've spent so much (emotional and physical) energy arguing with people here, hoping that at least some of the quiet lurking eggs won't fall for the spooks.

$chan is just a horrible place honestly and theres not much to do against the legions of /r/the_donald transplants we got over the past year or so

"Blanchardism" (a meme belief centered around cherrypicking roy's actual research) a tool for /pol/ leaners to justify calling trannies fetishists. No more no less. You can refute it the moment you refute the Jewish world cuntspiracy. These people aren't in it for logic, they're in it because they WANT to believe it. They want to believe all or most trannies are DE GEN ERRR A CEEE meme to justify their murderous thoughts.

In reality, they are all ASD spectrum that throw tantrums whenever you mention people having fun in any way they dislike (usually anything that isn't STEM worship). Temperance creatures of the 21st century. You can't have fun, you can't do anything you want with your body, listen to armchair telling you how to live or else!!! Or else what? Or else they'll beat you up in thirty years when they finally get to that totalitarian takeover!

>>8584624
I linked you to some articles a few weeks ago. Articles that you said you'd read. Filled with citations of studies showing that transsexuals of all orientations have male-female intermediate neural patterns in the sexually dimorphic areas of the brain even before HRT. The first study listed shows that Savic's findings were not repeated when using a more advanced form of MRI.

We know androphilia correlates with femininity and gynephilia with masculinity, regardless of gender identity. Gay men are a group distinct from straight men in many parameters, and the same applies to transsexuals. Extrapolating from that to the rest of the taxonomy is not sound.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

>>8584627
Thing is, it's not just trannies. It's a great deal of scientists. See the links above. Transsexuality as neurological intersexuality is the prevailing view nowadays.

>>8584675
Bah, brains are borrring. Like, all that complicated neurobiology stuff is for nererrds lmao. Trust muh sociological fantasies supported by nothing but my own opinion!!! ITS RITE I SWEAR! ITS ESOTERIC ALT KNOWLEDGE FROM KEK ITSELF!! OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM LIKE DARWIN AND COPERNICUS!!

>>8584562
>>8584629
>>8584658
>>8584667
I honestly know just giving up is the right thing to do given the toll this takes on me but somehow I always find myself drawn back to this place when I'm feeling down, and when I'm here I can't help but argue with people saying nonsense. FML. Still, good to know I'm not alone.

>>8584731
The obnoxious minority always hijacks discourse from the silent majority by being loud.

>>8584731
god that's exactly how I feel too...

love lesbiansss

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Why do HSTSes never, ever have such an instinctive gut hatred/emotional outbursts toward Blanchardianism?

>>8584675
>Transsexuality as neurological intersexuality is the prevailing view nowadays.
Shit, really?

This must be how the Mensheviks felt in 1917...

>>8584767
*as AGPs do

>>8584767
Straight transwomen don't like the idea that they're very gay men. I don't know why you do. Outside of 4chan Blanchard is widely despised by trans people of every orientation.

>>8584767
Het tranny here, it's garbage. And translesbians are victims targeted by predatory lesbians who have double the rates of domestic violence in cis white partnerships above gay male relationships.

Hope my facts help.

>>8584767
Probably the same reason they don't have strong feelings on quantum physics or the Hodge conjecture.

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>>8584778
AGPs are strongly against those?

Why does caraposter share Blanchard's tactic of making things up, instead of basing their theories on actual facts?

really makes me think

>>8584777
She said HSTS, not pseudobi.

>>8584778
That's a weird thing to say given that Blanchard does theorize about HSTSs in an unflattering way, saying they're feminine men who transition because society bullies them and they can't cope. They're supposedly more accepted by society as women than as men.

>>8584784
Because they're samefag. It's one /pol/ troll trying to convince trannies to repress so they an hero down the line. This, in /pol/'s twisted fake Darwin worldview, saves society.

>>8584767
look if 4chan straight trans women are in so many layers of pseudoscience they're okay with being called gay boys that's your funeral but outside this site the vast majority of straight trans people dont follow this nonsense.

>>8584790
Bisexual implies sleeping with girls.

I've never slept with a girl in my life nor held any sexual attraction to them.

Can you be pseudobi without the bi?

>>8584798
>4chan straight trans women
See >>8584790

>>8584800
Pseudohet*

>>8584803
>Let me out and out make up terms now

Lol just stop posting

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>>8584792
You wouldn't understand because you ARE the bullies.

>>8584808
Externalized self hatred is common for straight transwomen.

>>8584807
I'm not the one who has a problem with the existing terms.

>>8584821
>Meeeeemm magick

Stop posting.

>>8584808
Whoa, for real? You think of yourself as a man? That's fucked up.

>>8584825
what

Caraposter is a projecting AGP. Anime avatars are a common theme of the AGP, who uses the heavily stylized art to escape the reality in which they are men. HSTS don't need anime to feel feminine, we spent our whole lives that way since we were like 4.

>>8584803
>everyone who doesn't believe in my pseudoscience is fake straight
lmaoing @ your life

>>8584675
Oh, that. I got confused because I hadn't mentally labeled this as "intersex" things. I'll reply soon, but I am currently writing a response to >>8584522.

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>>8584836
Well... it's literally impossible for to contextualize yourself in any expected form of male contextualization (especially being seen as a gay male and being expected to be in "gay relationships") so I wouldn't call that recognizing yourself as a man, no.

Meanwhile AGPs are perfectly comfortable shouting down HSTSes as if they were the opposite sex and demeaning them for the femininity.

>>8584850
I don't use Akko to feel feminine. I didn't even use anime avatars before being forced to drop avatarfagging with Cara Delevigne and N*****.

>>8584859
It's like fake fun. I only -think- I like men.

>>8584850
Cara is well know to be AGP. This isn't news to anyone.

>we
Let's not go too far.

>>8584865
are you sure people just aren't really comfortable shouting you down specifically because you are a crazy stalker who fantasized about beating up women and spread pseudoscience on the internet?

just a thought

>>8584869
It's about the way you like men, not whether it's "real" or not.

Learn what you're talking about before dismissing it.

>>8584865
HSTS don't need avatars at all. Our feminity comes from within and we don't need to reinforce it because we are reminded of it every single day, whenever our mannerisms conflict with what society expected from us.

You are a poser.

>>8584865
Blanchard's theory says you're a man, and you say it is true. How is that not you contextualizing yourself as a man?

>>8584865
>being forced to drop avatarfagging with Cara Delevigne
???

>>8584883
>Reality doesn't matter

LOL a classic

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>>8584879
What evidence is there that I'm AGP?

Can you tell me something that I did besides seeking out HSTS early trans to relate to?

>>8584892
>muh strawman misquote

>>8584891
oh, that's a police thing

>>8584740
Do you hang out anywhere else?

>>8584906
Cara Delevigne is involved in your court case too or you just had to stop making your posts as recognizable?

>>8584926
you mean on the internet? Facebook groups mostly and some tumblr.

I'm not really active anywhere though no, I try to do more rl stuff

>>8584933
RIP. I'm repressing 5ever due to having a fucked up body so I kind of need an online outlet. Thanks anyway.

>>8584861
Is Cara AGP?

>>8584898
Watch this space.

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>>8584537
I'm doing my best to help undue the cancer consuming this board that is Blanchardianism, but sadly most people refuse to listen.

>>8584955
I refuse to listen to a dog parking in next door's yard too.

>>8584955
Hey, I appreciate your efforts Mobius poster. You seem to have convinced some person in your other thread.

>>8584993
Or anything else but what /pol/ tells you.

Keep pretending it's not a ploy to get repressors to an hero.

>>8584537
>stirnerite anti blanchardian
I love you clone of me

>>8584946
anon don't repress

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>>8584953
People always keep coming back to the fact that I equally "harassed" FTMs and MTFs and looked for ones to hang out with platonically. My abusers even recognize that it was entirely non-sexual.

They'll just use that I * literally * posted in chaser threads as a means of seeking out these people as a means of saying that I'm an AGP with an ETLE.

>>8585038
*to the idea
not fact

>>8585038
"hang out"
"platonically"

yep, that's a chaser

>>8585038
You told people to kill themselves for months and months..

>>8585049
what does that have to do with agp

>>8585038
do you like guys?
>no
agp confirmed

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>>8585059
but i literally am exclusively attracted to boys...
i don't think you realize how little has even been talked about here about my sexuality. but i'd be willing to.

>>8585074
'cept for all those times you "platonically" hit up transgirls and transmen for "hanging out"

Figures the one forcing the predatory males hypothesis is in fact a sexual predator.

>>8585030
Too masc to be salvaged, too weak to bear the weight of not passing. It sucks but that's how it is.

>>8585074
prove it. talk about your feelings for a boy.

>>8584792
HSTS Blanchardians get around that by using its bastardized version that says HSTS MtFs essentially have feminine essence, and FtMs masculine.

>>8584675
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/

Cute, but that's a way too tiny effect size. It may be a good argument against the people (e.g. Kay Brown or Trent) who say that AGP trans women are EVEN MORE MASCULINE THAN CIS MEN!!! because the people who transition because of AGP must have a high sex drive, and high sex drive means high androgens.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics

This does not address the sexual orientation of the participants.

> http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html
> http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

These reference more studies than I can reply to, pick some of the more relevant ones.

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>>8585090
do you mean like a boy that i've been interested in, or like one that i've had something with like what happened with n*****, or like archetypes of boys that i like...?

>>8585114
Trent recently admitted in one of the discord chats that he had body dysphoria because girls are hot and therefore he needs a body appropriate for fucking girls.

That's a non-bastardized version of HSTS.

>>8585115
Trent said A*Ps are more androgynous than cis people.

>>8585132
>girls are hot and therefore he needs a body appropriate for fucking girls.
And to think he used to claim to be AGP.

girls are hot

>>8585143
Wait, looking back on the chat logs, he merely wrote that AGP cis men were probably more masculine, not AGP trans women. He might believe that there's a selection effect in play.

>>8585154
He claims to be both.

>>8585115
>Cute, but that's a way too tiny effect size.
I'm not sure I agree. The differences are rather significant.

>This does not address the sexual orientation of the participants.
You have to follow up on the citations for some, but a great deal applies to transwomen of both orientations.

>These reference more studies than I can reply to, pick some of the more relevant ones.
That's fine. I wanted you to read and think of these articles and papers, then potentially comment on them. If you haven't yet had time to do the former then we can have this discussion at some later point.
Milton Diamond is quite notable and even headed IASR at some point so I suggest that you treat them seriously.

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>>8585012
Thanks anon, I feel like it's the least I can do considering I used to somewhat avidly pro-blanchardpost on this board.. I doubt it will actually change much but I suppose it's better than nothing.

>>8585179
thanks, man

>>8585132
> and therefore he needs a body appropriate for fucking girls.
And yet lesbians report higher sexual satisfaction!

>>8585189
Don't feel at fault, alright? It's easy for vulnerable people to be misled. You're not obliged to give of yourself to fix things.

>>8585204
Sertii is not for bullying. She is pure.

>>8585204
no problem my dude

>>8585114
>>8585075

>>8585189
I remember when someone attacked AGP and you they they shouldn't erase people's identities.

>>8585186
> I'm not sure I agree. The differences are rather significant.

Ok, lemme talk about this in more detail:

I'm looking at the sum (TIV) rather than the individual results, and trans men seem to essentially have the same as cis women (which is odd, because the trans men claim to be exclusively attracted to women...).

The effect size for trans women is much bigger. However, if I'm reading it correctly, it's still not statistically significant.

> You have to follow up on the citations for some, but a great deal applies to transwomen of both orientations.

I looked up the "Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism" study, it's the one that didn't mention the orientations.

> That's fine. I wanted you to read and think of these articles and papers, then potentially comment on them. If you haven't yet had time to do the former then we can have this discussion at some later point.
Milton Diamond is quite notable and even headed IASR at some point so I suggest that you treat them seriously.

That's a lot of things to read, though. Can you at least rewrite it so it explicitly points to the places where it contradicts Blanchard and address some of the more obvious objections?

w

Why doesn't Trent visit anymore?

>>8585301
>However, if I'm reading it correctly, it's still not statistically significant.
To the best of my understanding the difference is definitely significant. Don't feel like you have to argue with me right this instant. Take your time. Read their reasoning. With some luck I'll run into you again at some point.

>I looked up the "Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism" study, it's the one that didn't mention the orientations.
My intent was to link the section as a whole, not just that study.

>That's a lot of things to read, though. Can you at least rewrite it so it explicitly points to the places where it contradicts Blanchard and address some of the more obvious objections?
I really think you should read everything for the sake of your interest in the field.

>>8585332
He's on TERF reddit now.

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>>8585373
>To the best of my understanding the difference is definitely significant. Don't feel like you have to argue with me right this instant. Take your time. Read their reasoning. With some luck I'll run into you again at some point.

See my image.

> My intent was to link the section as a whole, not just that study.

The section links to that study, and then a study on trans men. Many things that should theoretically apply to trans women don't necessarily apply to trans men.

> I really think you should read everything for the sake of your interest in the field.

I am primarily interested in eggs.

>>8585376
No he's not. He used to be on "debate TERF" reddit, but he was on the anti-TERF side, and he only stopped visiting /tttt/ after he stopped participating there.

>>8585405
>I am primarily interested in eggs.

That's called selection bias.

>>8585376
Why did he go there?

>>8585410
Why did he leave?

>>8585405
>See my image.
There are multiple parameters to examine.

>The section links to that study, and then a study on trans men. Many things that should theoretically apply to trans women don't necessarily apply to trans men.
Read the rest of the page..

>I am primarily interested in eggs.
You seem to be interested in the nature of transsexuality and those articles are exactly about that. I'm sorry that learning about a complicated subject requires a lot of reading but there isn't exactly a way around it.

>>8585418
I don't know about why. That's the last I've heard of him.

>>8585414
My theory is that there's an underappreciated selection bias in only considering transitioned gender dysphoric people. Think of all the possible filters independent on gender dysphoria that might affect whether people transition!

Heck, here's an obvious one that's also relevant to the other conversation: it seems plausible that among equally dysphoric trans AMABs, the more feminine ones are more likely to transition; this'd lead to the effects mentioned earlier where it *seems like* trans women are innately feminine, but where it just happens because of a bunch of repressors.

>>8585442
This is what happens when you draw conclusions from selection bias.

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Being a trap is wrong.

>>8585442
>Think of all the possible filters independent on gender dysphoria that might affect whether people transition!
Kay Brown has already gone over this regarding national culture, ethnic culture, IQ and social status. Do you have other filters you are looking into or is there something you want to test without those filters? Either way, what?

>this'd lead to the effects mentioned earlier where it *seems like* trans women are innately feminine,
You need to separate the types here. Trans women would seem feminine with even with no filters on AGPs because of the presence of HSTSes.

>>8585405
>>8585425
Like, to expound on the first point: you really should read the whole thing. You're not looking at what the paper is focusing on.

>>8585074
What was it that made you realize that late transitioning hsts's exist?

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>>8585512
A lot of HSTS transition in the 18-21 bracket (see: Blaire White).

>>8585823
You mean 18-20. 21 is too late to be HSTS.

>>8585868
Blaire transitioned at 21 though.

>>8584803
>>8584790
>pseudobi
>pseudohet
pseudoscience

>>8584644
T. Idiot

>>8584767
Straight transwoman, I hate it and you're fucking delusional if you think this is something only agps aren't cool with

>>8586405
Be careful around Blanchardians. They're liable to tell you you're not really straight, but are really a pseudohet AGP.

>>8586418
Yeah I saw that earlier up, these people are as delusional as people into astrology.
"Okay I know that you line up with no traits of your sun sign but that's just because of your moonsign!!1!"
Completely and utterly unreachable

>>8584537
I have no idea what Blanchardianism is, can you explain what it is and why it's wrong before I inevitably get misinformed by some over source?

>>8586592
>>8586592
a psychologist from canada named blanchard had a theory with two types of trannies in the 80s or something and now its a meme for some reason

basically blanchardians say a tranny is either a straight guy with "agp" (autogynephilia, aroused by the idea of a female version of his self) or else a gay guy with "hsts" (forget what it stands for... basically just wanting dick)

>>8585425
>>8585493
The rest of the page is full of complicated tests that I don't understand. I thought they were just attempting to link things to hormone levels or something. ._.

You'll have to write a thing where you explain what they're doing, otherwise I can't comment.

>>8585472
Trent and I both think transition might filter in favor of crazy/weird people. As I mentioned, there's probably also a filter for femininity among trans women. In addition, there might be a filter on politics, and the egg narrative suggests that there's a filter on other things too.

>Argue against the sun comes up
>sun continues to come up
>bewildered

Maybe reassess, Hons?

>>8587392
They're examining the structure of white matter tracts via diffusivity.

>Diffusion-weighted magnetic resonance imaging (DWI or DW-MRI) is an imaging method that uses the diffusion of water molecules to generate contrast in MR images. It allows the mapping of the diffusion process of molecules, mainly water, in biological tissues, in vivo and non-invasively. Molecular diffusion in tissues is not free, but reflects interactions with many obstacles, such as macromolecules, fibers, and membranes. Water molecule diffusion patterns can therefore reveal microscopic details about tissue architecture, either normal or in a diseased state. A special kind of DWI, diffusion tensor imaging (DTI), has been used extensively to map white matter tractography in the brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_MRI

MD stands for Mean Diffusivity.
>Whole-brain TBSS analysis revealed widespread differences in MD, AD, and RD maps between the investigated groups, whereas no significant voxels were found for FA maps. Differences in MD included virtually all white matter tracts. Post hoc pairwise comparisons revealed the transition MC < MtF < FtM < FC, with MD values and number of significant voxels increasing significantly (Figs. 1, ,2).2). In other words, female biological sex and female gender identity were associated with increased MD.

...
>The results of this study show that white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs and MCs. Females with a female gender identity (FCs) had highest MDs, followed by females with a male gender identity (FtM transsexuals). Further decreased values were found in males with a female gender identity (MtF transsexuals), followed by males with a male gender identity (MCs) having the lowest MD.

White matter tract mean diffusivity correlates with both natal sex and gender identity, regardless of orientation. Hormones and orientation were controlled for as factors.

>>8587458
Interesting, though worth noting that through the previously mentioned selection effects it might not disprove Blanchardianism.

What's the track record on replicability in this field?

>>8587761
>Interesting, though worth noting that through the previously mentioned selection effects it might not disprove Blanchardianism.

I strongly suggest that you read the Discussion section. I wanted to paste the relevant parts but they were too long for one 4chan post and there were many of them. Basically they present an argument for why these structures are likely natally determined, with the abnormalities in transsexuals being the result of abnormal natal development. That is, these differences go beyond an individual just being GNC or whatever. They're a form of intersexuality.

>What's the track record on replicability in this field?
Neurology's record is significantly better than psychology's since you can rely on physical evidence. A lot of very old studies (e.g. those from the 70s-80s) were found erroneous due to relying on old technology though.

>>8587832
> I strongly suggest that you read the Discussion section. I wanted to paste the relevant parts but they were too long for one 4chan post and there were many of them. Basically they present an argument for why these structures are likely natally determined, with the abnormalities in transsexuals being the result of abnormal natal development. That is, these differences go beyond an individual just being GNC or whatever. They're a form of intersexuality.

Still not clear why this couldn't be the result of a filter effect.

> Neurology's record is significantly better than psychology's since you can rely on physical evidence.

Does this also apply to trans brain science?

>>8587988
>Still not clear why this couldn't be the result of a filter effect.
Okay, suppose that there is a filter effect. What would that imply given the data? We know, at the very least, that transsexuals who experience dysphoria and seek to transition are neurologically intersexed (in many different ways; see the other articles I've linked), regardless of orientation. This is a sufficient potential explanation for the origin of gender dysphoria, and one that predates both of Blanchard's etiological explanations. It invalidates them by demonstrating a "feminine essence". The differences between trans androphiles and gynephiles can be aptly explained away by the differences between androphiles and gynephiles in general.

>Does this also apply to trans brain science?
As long as the research is not really old.

>>8588024
The thing is, in your model we'd need a separate explanation for other ETLIs (e.g. BIID), *and* an explanation for why they correlate with transness, and a bunch of explanations for things that Blanchardianism deals with.

>>8588147
No matter how much we like a theory we can't hold on to it if it does not match up with the evidence. It is very possible for scientific research to answer one question and then produce a bunch of new questions we can't answer as of yet. Blanchardianism completely ignores the whole neural intersexuality thing (which, you have to admit, kinda has to be related), proposing unrelated etiologies, so I'd say that even in terms of explanatory power it is rather lacking.

I think there's a pretty simple explanation for why all of these conditions correlate: people who are neuroatypical in one way are exponentially more likely to be neuroatypical in others. Clustering. If you think about the brain like a computer it makes sense: one bug is likely to introduce a bunch of others because things are not working as expected.

>>8588147
what do you feel blanchardianism deals with?

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Keep trying anon, we do what we can because we must. I know its hard, but we'll win in the end.

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>>8588245
Why do you feel so entitled to winning without having offered anything in the way of an alternative ?

>>8588252
Why does everyone who's been in any closer contact with you say you're AGP?

>>8588252
>without having offered anything in the way of an alternative ?
ayyy
>>8584675

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>>8588252
Because you're wrong. The alternative is that theory about female pattern brain in male pattern body. It has evidence, which is more than Blanchard ever had.

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>>8588256
Where exactly? All I've ever had are people constantly talking over me and trying to tell me who I am.

Trent used to tell me way back when that I wanted to become an FTM.

>>8588270
It was Trent and a couple others from your discord IIRC

>>8588190
The neural intersexuality thing is curious. I could easily explain it away, but I don't want to commit to such an explanation yet.

I guess my problem with your neural intersexuality thing is that it doesn't look true, and it doesn't look useful, whereas Blanchardianism helps me make sense of everything. Perhaps it turns out that transness really *is* caused by neural intersexuality which just happens to work in a way that makes it look like either a paraphilia or extreme gender atypicality, but this seems really odd and I wouldn't bet on it, at least not until you have some additional theory that illustrates the strength of the neural intersexuality model.

>>8588191
I'm really bad at examples. I recommend you learn Blanchardianism and then observe its usefulness.

>>8588270
you mean like you tell people who they are?

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>>8588276
>Im going to trust a guy who doesnt even have a real science degree and isn't even a scientist by any definition and his theory that has no evidence by the way over the peer reviewed studies of actual doctors and scientists because thats how I feel
Well, you've got the trusting your instincts part of being a woman figured out. Ill give you that.

>>8588276
>I guess my problem with your neural intersexuality thing is that it doesn't look true
I'm sorry but what? There is a mountain of evidence in all of the articles I linked you. Many, many citations.

>and it doesn't look useful
It is true. What you make of the truth is up to you, but the truth is the truth.

>whereas Blanchardianism helps me make sense of everything
And doesn't actually relate to reality.

>Perhaps it turns out that transness really *is* caused by neural intersexuality which just happens to work in a way that makes it look like either a paraphilia or extreme gender atypicality, but this seems really odd and I wouldn't bet on it, at least not until you have some additional theory that illustrates the strength of the neural intersexuality model.
Androphilic transwomen are more gender non-conforming because androphilia correlates with femininity regardless of gender identity. For example gay men are more feminine than straight men.
We don't know why gynephiles develop autogynephilia more often than non-gynephiles, but given the similar neural background of the two groups it is ridiculous to assume that *their* transsexuality is caused by the paraphilia while the other group's isn't. I think Occam's razor is extremely applicable here.

>>8588291
I don't want to trust anyone, that's why I believe the obviously true theory (Blanchardianism) over some subtle neuroscience thing that I don't even understand.

If someone had explained Blanchardianism to me without showing me any of the science done on it, but just by showing how it applies easily everywhere, I'd *still* be very sympathetic to it because it works much better than anything else I've seen.

The neurological intersex thing you're pointing at does not seem to apply usefully to *anything*. This makes me extremely skeptical, because I'd expect the true theory to feel insightful and useful (like Blanchardianism) rather than just being an inert and useless statement.

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>>8588275
There are only three others besides me in my discord, what did they say to you?

>>8588270
>Trent used to tell me way back when that I wanted to become an FTM.
WTF?

>>8588317
they've just mentioned you're AGP i think? not much else

>>8588309
>I don't want to trust anyone, that's why I believe the obviously true theory (Blanchardianism) over some subtle neuroscience thing that I don't even understand.
I'm sorry but I just lost all respect for you. You basically admitted that you believe what you want to believe rather than what actual research says. Concrete physical evidence is not subtle.

>The neurological intersex thing you're pointing at does not seem to apply usefully to *anything*. This makes me extremely skeptical, because I'd expect the true theory to feel insightful and useful (like Blanchardianism) rather than just being an inert and useless statement.
It does not follow that the truth has to be "useful" according to your definition of the term. That's a complete non-sequitur.

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>>8588320
That was a long time ago, now he just says that I don't have a sexuality and that I would be comfortable transitioning as long as people think that I'm an early transitioner.

>>8588327
Are you aware that he's a fucking psychopath?

>>8588304
Yes, you've got a bunch of studies which link transness to various intersex traits, but what then? Where does this link show up in real life? What practical observations can you point to that illustrate the intersex thing? What predictions can you make about trans people using it?

*At the very least*, you need to start cataloging the answers to questions like these, similar to how Blanchardians are doing, and you need to do it in convincing ways. In my experience, Blanchardianism has *lots* of utility here. If I manage to classify someone as either AGP or HSTS (and I generally do), then this lets me take all the things we know about AGPs or HSTSs and apply them to better understand things.

>>8588327
you're just an agp who wants to be an hsts really really bad

>>8588325
>I'm sorry but I just lost all respect for you. You basically admitted that you believe what you want to believe rather than what actual research says. Concrete physical evidence is not subtle.

It's subtle in the sense that I have no idea how it relates to what people do, and in the sense that I can't gather this physical evidence in any way.

> It does not follow that the truth has to be "useful" according to your definition of the term. That's a complete non-sequitur.

You can expect the truth to be more useful than something false.

>>8588336
Stop bullying Cara.

>>8588347
Why? He deserves every bullying he receives and some more.

>>8588291
That would come off better if your own view wasn't "muh feels: pretending to be science edition"

>>8588332
>Where does this link show up in real life?
Those traits are the difference between men and women, so they manifest in the same places the differences do. Furthermore they explain gender dysphoria and why, for example, taking HRT alone is anecdotally said to make people feel much, much better even if it does next to nothing to their physical appearance.

> What practical observations can you point to that illustrate the intersex thing?
By practical you mean anecdotal? The whole point of the scientific process is to extract data by isolating variables.

>What predictions can you make about trans people using it?
We know a great deal about neural dimorphism between the sexes. The way we apply all of this knowledge to transsexuals shifts drastically if we recognize that trans people are intersexed in this fashion. We can further apply the knowledge we've gathered of intersexed people in general to transsexuals.

>*At the very least*, you need to start cataloging the answers to questions like these, similar to how Blanchardians are doing, and you need to do it in convincing ways.
You seem to think this is some dingy movement I'm starting. I'm not. I'm showing you the scientific facts, as presented by the medical establishment. You repeatedly miss this point: you don't get to choose what you want to believe! You believe what is shown to be *true*, regardless of the implications of that. To do otherwise is contrary to logic. It is an appeal to fear.

>Either P or Q is true.
>Q is frightening.
>Therefore, P is true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear

> In my experience, Blanchardianism has *lots* of utility here. If I manage to classify someone as either AGP or HSTS (and I generally do), then this lets me take all the things we know about AGPs or HSTSs and apply them to better understand things.
If the taxonomy is not correct than how useful it seems is not relevant. A lot of people swear Briggs-Myers personality tests tell them a lot about one another

>>8588332
>>8588373
and were such personality tests accurate they would indeed be marvelous, but the fact remains that they aren't so it does not matter how hypothetically useful they'd be if they were.

>>8588364
All of the papers linked ITT are fabrications created by bitter transwomen, yeah? They clearly have the entire scientific community under their thumb, forcing people everywhere to fake dozens of experiments.

>>8588309
>I'd expect the true theory to feel insightful and useful (like Blanchardianism) rather than just being an inert and useless statement.
I feel the exact opposite. AGP in particular strikes me as being totally useless since it has devolved into a catchall. Things like pseudohet, pseudobi, and romantic AGP just get ridiculous.
HSTS is bad too because it seems like a product of certain gay subcultures. If you didn't come to trans out of those subcultures you're not going to fit the stereotype.

>>8588276
the thing is I personally haven't found any usefulness in it at all, that's why i'm asking you for examples.

>>8588445
You haven't tried using it.

>>8588450
show me then

>>8588453
No, you actually try before dismissing things with with dishonest statements like >>8588445

>>8588466
ok, you can't then

>>8588469
This is what I'm talking about. You could have said in the first place that you were dismissing the idea, but instead you lied about it being useless.

>>8588481
nah, that's something you made up in your head. If I could derive any useful conclusions from it I would, but it's just such a garbage theory that you can't. I know, I used to believe in it, I'm just urging you to try to draw some useful conclusion from it that actually matches reality.

>>8588487
>nah, that's something you made up in your head.
It's literally the conversation for the last few posts of the thread.

You need to wait a bit longer if you want your historical revisionism to fool anybody.

>>8588489
well, you still can't show me it's a theory based on reality

>>8588494
You're not tricking me into showing you exactly that now that you've shown just how dishonest a person you are.

>>8588503
Why do you think I'm lying?

blanchardianism has to be the lamest new age religion honestly

>>8588347
>stating facts
>bullying

Why don't you un-bully Cara by saying how >>8588336 is untrue? (Spoiler: Because you're not willing to lie for Cara but you are willing to ask others to.)

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>>8588817
If you can offer up evidence besides me """"""""""chasing"""""""""""" then maybe she'll believe you.

>>8588309
Blanchardianism has been debunked over and over again. You're an idiot, as stupid as someone who thinks ADHD is a result of bad parenting.

Dropping in to say you all deserve what believing in silly blanchardian nonsense will get you, and that's suicide.

>>8588835
Not answering >>8584953 and not saying >>8588336 is untrue proves she knows the truth.

>>8588869
they're offline on discord right now so idk.

>>8588908
Those post happened before then. Still no answer. Wonder why?

>>8588343
>It's subtle in the sense that I have no idea how it relates to what people do, and in the sense that I can't gather this physical evidence in any way.

None of this has anything at all to do with the truthfulness of the concept.

>You can expect the truth to be more useful than something false.

I'm not sure how much you know about biology, but I'll give you an analogy here. I'm sure you know that people have categorized life into all sorts of groups. You also probably know that vertebrates are classified into 5 major classes: Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles, Birds, and Mammals.

The problem is, that's an outdated taxonomy. We now know that reptiles are actually an incredibly diverse group that really isn't as closely related as we once thought. In fact, crocodiles are more closely related to birds than they are to turtles. and both crocodiles and turtles are far more closely related to birds than either of them are to lizards or snakes. What this means is that reptile is an archaic classification that doesn't actually represent a true tree of life.

Of course, people still use reptile classification despite that. Because even when it's scientifically invalid, it's still useful to have a category for "scaly vertebrates that lay eggs on land"

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>>8589013
oh right
they messaged me and called you a liar

>>8589197
Bullshit.

>>8585049
Really? How aggressive and masculine!

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>>8589218

>>8589298
But they can't say it in this thread. Why not?

>>8588343
>You can expect the truth to be more useful than something false.
That depends on your agenda.
All sorts of people get tons of mileage out of falsehoods, how do you think literal cults and scams and schemes work?
There are people who literally believe the world is flat and who ignore all evidence to the contrary because the idea seems right to them and useful in understanding the one world government conspiracy.
You've basically admitted to the thread even if not to yourself that you believe what you want because you want it to be true because it's useful to your agenda and what you want.

>>8588332
>In my experience, Blanchardianism has *lots* of utility here. If I manage to classify someone as either AGP or HSTS (and I generally do), then this lets me take all the things we know about AGPs or HSTSs and apply them to better understand things.
And people likewise find similar use in classifying everyone into neat boxes from phrenology and hand writing analysis and other unproven and debunked pseudosciences.
Wanting things to be true and finding them convenient does not make them true. You are literally deluding yourself denying reality in favor of what you want and you should probably seek professional help.

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>>8584850

>>HSTS don't need anime to feel feminine,

HSTS engage in many behaviors just to feel they are more feminine, that's why they engage in heavy surgeries that leave them totally unpassable, hyperspecialize in female fields like hairdressing and nursery far beyond most cis female standards and even hold a hierarchy amongst them where the latest transitioner is the HSTS of lowest status

>>we spent our whole lives that way since we were like 4.

Most do lie about this, indeed, the "transkid" story is the rarest case of them all, most HSTS.

When asked in an non-judgemental, confortable environment with people they are comfortable with, confess they start having these feelings in the 10-16 age arch. This is some of the things blanchard did wrong: he asked for self-reports in a clinical setting where many of them had their HRT at stake.

Also, roughly 1/4 hsts has had lesbian experiences or feelings, but will never confess so unless other hsts does first, and only in total intimacy and when they know their secret is going to be kept. There are no "true lesbians" in the HSTS group, but bisexuals? yes, there are some (note, TRUE bisexuals, not pseudobisexuals).


Source: I myself am a tranny psychologist helping at a clinic and doing my own research. Yes, I am a dirty snake tongue to get those secrets from fellow HSTS. Will make them public one day because I can't stand te truth not being told. Also, Blanchard can suck my XY ass.

>>8589298
lmao. Not the one pushing the AGP angle but it's hilarious how you live in a fantasy world where you aren't the bully. You've hurt hundreds of people over years.

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>>8589395

Indeed, the TRUE narrative of the HSTS is not that of "I knew I was a girl since forever", it is pretty different, and usually involves a moment and a mental state that involves some crude, cruel patterns of thought most HSTS won't confess to non-HSTS. Those thought patterns need a brain capable of abstraction, which is why the "I knew since I was 4" is the rarest of the cases. You need a bit of brain to think some thinks you all bitches know you tought sooner or later.

Don't lie to me, I'm on the same train as you, bitches, I know what you know.

But I will not tell them here, or AGPs will appropriate them lol

But I know well... You didn't know what you were as soon as you say you knew, but you lie to protect yourselves, because all of you fear that if you ever told the truth, as some anons say sometimes, you'll be judged harshly by other HSTS. Ah, my beloved snakes <3 we're such a socially savvy bunch, aren't we?

>>8589406
Think about the people enabling that fantasy world.

>>8589440
>tfw HSTS are literally the same as AGPs but with the mental willpower to rise above it
i almost made it

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>>8589468

>tfw HSTS are literally the same as AGPs but with the mental willpower to rise above it

No we are not. HSTS are not fetishists, neither do like exclusively women like AGPs do. That's one thing Blanchard got right.

>>8589395
>Also, Blanchard can suck my XY ass.
And yet you've accepted his terminology.

>>8589468
lol no

>>8589440
I'm androphilic and didn't get off on wanting to be a woman, for whatever that is worth, but I absolutely did think I would literally grow up to be a woman about age 3. I had a lot of thoughts of wishing I were born a girl or could be made a girl before I started kindergarten. I am very high IQ if that makes a difference.

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>>8589878
>I am very high IQ if that makes a difference

Protip: People who are very high IQ realize that telling people that you are very high IQ makes you look like a stupid cunt, therefore they don't do it. So you don't actually have a very high IQ, you just think you do because you took some internet test that depends on clicks to make advertising revenue and so they tell people that they are very high IQ to appeal to their vanity so that they will return to their website because if they told people that they were very low IQ the people would get offended and talk shit about the website and so the website wouldn't get clicks and their advertising revenue would go down, but you, being average to low IQ don't understand any of this and so you go around telling people that you are very high IQ (instead of saying you "have" a very high IQ you say that you "are" a very high IQ?) which is literally stupid.
So please go fuck yourself.

>>8589923
Not the person you're responding to, but it's not smart to make large generalizations like that. Some people that genuinely have high IQs consider it important and will mention it. I'm not sure at exactly what point it is, but Sam Harris and Charles Murray mention that briefly during the the podcast they did on IQ. Speaking of internet IQ tests, there's a semi-interesting discussion about one over on /sci/ about a specific one that apparently correlates well with "real" IQ tests that you might be interested in:
>>>/sci/9039124

>>8589923
The only reason I mentioned it is because of the HSTS=normal IQ, AGP=high IQ meme. I was smart enough to get a full tuition scholarship fwiw. I wouldn't have even mentioned it except I thought it was relevant.

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>>8590110
>Some people that genuinely have high IQs consider it important and will mention it.

>>8590462
High IQ doesn't lead to modesty or even a lot of knowledge in every case. Maybe it should in theory, but the world is messy and you get all kinds of people.

>>8590462
Nah, there's actually a reason for it anon. It's called the 20 point problem or something like that. Essentially, once you pass a 20 point or so differential, it becomes literally impossible to make sense of each other. The more intelligent one will almost always be considered 'stupid' because the things they say and the patterns they connect are so far beyond what someone 20-25 points lower can that it seems nonsensical or 'gibberish'.

It's INCREDIBLY frustrating to those who have it, and moreso when you have multiples of it. It's the reason IQ is a predictor of success only up to about 125, at which point it becomes very detrimental to your chance at life.

>>8590555
So you're saying High Intelligence != High Intelligence

Makes sense.
If you're a dumb-ass.

>>8590588
>what is being able to explain something

>>8590633
I present as evidence the individual I am responding to. This person, clearly on the lower end of the 20 point problem, is not even able to comprehend HOW it could exist, and as such considers me stupid.

Thank you, anon, you may go now.

>>8590617
How are you defining intelligence?
Modesty and knowledge?

>>8584537
>Blanchardianism
What's that?

>>8590645
Pathetic ad hom.

You invent your bullshit stories about you're so intelligent that you become a misunderstood genius and then get bitchy when people don't play along.

You're the mother inventing New Age buzzwords about colors and crystals to describe her retarded child.

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>>8590663
How are you defining it?
Autism?

>>8590682
And why does the issue of intelligence trigger some people so much. WtF. It's yet another thing people get bullied for.

>>8590689
I dunno, man, intelligence is a really complicated concept, mostly I take it as the "ability to learn and understand", but that's still fairly vague. Typically people can agree on generally what they mean when they say "intelligence" without giving it a hard definition, but I don't think we're on the same page here if your definition somehow includes modesty and knowledge.

>>8590682
Fascinating analysis. I'd merely point out that at no time did I say I had this problem or that I was very smart, or even that I was the poster who had the high IQ. I've neither been bitchy, nor cared that literally anyone 'didn't play along'. I did have some fun making an example out of the post that may or may not have been yours, though.

>>8590726
"I'm not being bitchy" =/= not being bitchy.

Where's that IQ when you need it!

>>8590711
yeah, because knowledge is the opposite of intelligence, amirite guise?!?!

>>8584675
this is some retarded /pol/-tier shitposting
like when they post those infographics with n=1 claiming all gay men have some cat virus and love eating shit
just stop

At the risk of digging myself deeper, these posts are mine:
>>8589878
>>8590382
>>8590695
The other IQ related posts are by someone else.
No one is discussing the issue I was interested in. The post I replied to talked about "knew since I was 4" being rare, and required a brain capable of abstraction. I thought the HSTS=normal AGP=high IQ meme was relevant, and that I was above normal despite being androphilic might be relevant.
The bigger point is that I think AGP and HSTS under Blanchardism/Blanchardianism (I prefer the former word) are stupid stereotypes and don't capture what's really going on.

>>8590785
Why do you consider that shitposting? Becasue you don't like what the post says? Do you have something better?

>>8590798
What do you think is really going on?

>>8590763
It's not the opposite, but I rarely see peopel say that the two are the same thing. Knowledge is just the sum of all that you know, whereas intelligence is typically viewed as a more innate quality of a being, and it's why people talk about how IQ has low age variance. If intelligence scaled with knowledge, then we would want a measure of intelligence that goes up as you age. To make a simple example say we have two people in a room that, by whatever chance, happen to have the exact same level of knowledge. The you give them a physics textbook. Say that person 1 reads and understands the physics textbook immediately as they read it and completes all the problems given in it, whereas person 2 takes a year to understand the concepts and complete the problems. Which person is more intelligent?

>>8590824
I believe in the neurological intersex/prenatal feminization or failure of/partial masculinization theory. Sexual orientation and strength of cross-sex gender identity are probably correlated but not necessarily connected. Maybe more intelligent/precocious children are more self-aware at an earlier age and would be more inward-looking about their gender dysphoric feelings.

>>8585119
>one that i've had something with like what happened with n*****
You're piquing my curiosity
How was it like "having something with" other boys when you were presumably bullied/rejected and also not contextualized as male/female?

>or like archetypes of boys that i like...?
Go on.

Denying AGP is like denying water is wet. It's a clear sign of willfull denial of reality

>>8589406
>hundreds
0

>>8589878
>but I absolutely did think I would literally grow up to be a woman about age 3

So you're not only delusional, but a stupid faggot too

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>>8591759
Are you trying to insult the poster based on what they thought at age 3?

>>8591759
I figured out that was wrong pretty quickly, but come on, I was only 3.

>>8591773
The number of people who can remember things from age 3 is vanishingly small. So small that I'd say the trannies who claim it are almost always lying for validation that nobody outside of the trans hierarchy even gives a shit about.

Second, a three year old should be old enough to know the difference between male and female and that sex is a fixed state that doesn't change. Mommy is always mommy. Daddy is daddy. Thats it.

>>8591807
>The number of people who can remember things from age 3 is vanishingly small. So small that I'd say the trannies who claim it are almost always lying for validation that nobody outside of the trans hierarchy even gives a shit about.
I think you're 100% right about that

>Second, a three year old should be old enough to know the difference between male and female and that sex is a fixed state that doesn't change. Mommy is always mommy. Daddy is daddy. Thats it.
but this is ridiculous, three year olds don't know shit

>>8591807
>The number of people who can remember things from age 3 is vanishingly small
Everything I'm looking at has the earliest memory at about 3 years old on average. I'm not going to delve in depth to find real studies on it, because I am supposed to be sleeping right now and really need to start, but you might want to look into this because what you're saying doesn't mesh with what I'm seeing.

Second, holy shit. What a standard you hold three year olds to. The kids that just learned to count (but not more than ten objects)? That don't understand what good and bad is yet? That have a poor understanding of time and the order of daily activities? That can't follow two-to-three part commands? That don't recognize stop signs yet?

>>8591807
I knew the difference between mommy and daddy, but thought I'd become a mommy. As I said, that didn't last long.

My brother was born when I was 2 and I distinctly remember him being brought home from the hospital. I also remember an easter egg hunt later that year, and moving into the apartment we were living in before my brother was born.

>>8591858
>Everything I'm looking at has the earliest memory at about 3 years old on average... but you might want to look into this because what you're saying doesn't mesh with what I'm seeing.

I'm sure a small number can. I reckon most people don't remember anything before the beginning of primary school though.

My experience is likely to be different from most though. I don't have any distinct memories from before the age of 9 that aren't secondhand memories induced by other people recounting events to me. That was the age where I was molested by another boy and probably the beginning of my agp.

>>8591894
I remember all kinds of stuff from before I started school. I would be surprised if most people can't remember something.

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>>8591894
>That was the age where I was molested by another boy
Hey, that's funny, I started molesting other boys my age (and also girls, I'm biscum) at around that age!

Maybe I personally made you AGP!

>>8590588
>It's INCREDIBLY frustrating to those who have it, and moreso when you have multiples of it. It's the reason IQ is a predictor of success only up to about 125, at which point it becomes very detrimental to your chance at life.
B R A I N H O N
S C I E N C E

>>8590785
>Dick Swaab is a fringe /pol/ scientist
Stay mad. Alternatively: read.

>>8591904
mhm

>>8591894
>>8591954
How could being molested cause AGP?

>>8588373
> We know a great deal about neural dimorphism between the sexes. The way we apply all of this knowledge to transsexuals shifts drastically if we recognize that trans people are intersexed in this fashion. We can further apply the knowledge we've gathered of intersexed people in general to transsexuals.

There's a big difference between "we know trans people are neurologically intersexed in *some* ways" and "trans people are neurologically (and thus maybe also psychologically) like their transitioned-to sex". My experience (which in person is only with A*Ps) tells me that trans people (at least pretransition) have *a lot* in common with people of their assigned sex.

(How much is hard to say, because trans people are *incredibly weird* in general.)

> If the taxonomy is not correct than how useful it seems is not relevant. A lot of people swear Briggs-Myers personality tests tell them a lot about one another

If the taxonomy is not correct, then that's important to keep in mind while applying it, but if it's still useful and we don't have a more correct & more useful model, then it is still relevant in practice.

>>8589362
This is definitely something I'm aware of, but there's a lot of underappreciated complexity in evaluating this. I'm always paying attention to whether the ideas are wrong in this way (which is why I'm always the first to admit that the fact that you don't find HSTSs in online samples is *incredibly suspicious*), but I can't ignore the utility.

I don't have an agenda, though; I'm just trying to understand how transness (and in particular, eggs) works.

>>8593162
First introduction to sex was forced, creating an enduring pattern of sexual submission and bisexuality. Sexual orientation isn't just something people are born with, but products of environment and upbringing.

I can't explain what started the desire to crossdress, but I firmly believe I would be a normal straight male if that hadn't happened.

I've always been pretty shy, non confrontational and less focused on physical pursuits, but those are just personality traits. Cross-gender identificaiton is a spook and I'm clearly male, and thus agp because of my sexual desires.

>>8594593
Which posts are you referring to here >>8589298?

I mean, there's only two genders, I don't give a fuck for your reason for wanting to be one or the other, so I don't know where that puts me on your spectrum, but I think most trans-intellectualism is bullshit.

>>8594667
Blanchardianism is not a political ideology about which reasons to want to be one or the other that are valid/invalid, but instead a theory about which reasons exist and how they translate to things in practice. It asserts that there basically exists two reasons:

* An unusual sexuality which leads to a desire to be what you're attracted to
* Something vague, but related to extremely GNC homosexuality

>>8594633
I don't want to talk about Cara on this board, because I think whatever I say will just end up with you bullying her more.

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>>8584537
I wonder whether it is possible that ALL trans have AGP, that is are aroused by people viewing them as women in public.

Maybe some are also homosexuals trying to seduce straight men but I am not sure.

>>8594691
Don't call me a liar or a bully without backing it up.

>>8594707
Well, maybe not you then, but there's many people on this board who might.

>>8594727
>maybe not you then
Too late, you already said it and refused to clarify which posts you meant so I can tell if you were actually talking about me or not.

>You can expect the truth to be more useful than something false.
What happened to the truth being a good thing? Now you're apparently afraid to say it.

>>8594691
You misspelled

* A desire to rape straight men through deception manifesting as a desire to cut off one's penis

All gay men dream about fucking straight men, only "hsts" and sleazy date rapists act on that impulse.

>>8588838
So you are saying AGPs are not straight men who get off sexually by dressing as women or that HSTS are not gay guys trying to trick straight men into sex?

I'm going for now. Please keep fighting the good fight, ya'll.

>>8594706
I've never gotten aroused by being seen as a woman in public. At this point it's just normal life. At first the most I felt was relief from anxiety when I passed. I was a total bundle of nerves in the early days.
Getting attention from men can be arousing, as long as they don't cross the creepy line. Where that line is has a lot to do with how attracted I am of course.

>>8595983
Do you get turned on more if they refer to you with female rather than male pronouns?

Nigga, you're just getting trolled. Look, watch me get trolled by responding to this faggot too.

>>8584576
Too bad you have brain damage.

>>8594756
Different anon but there are a lot of MtFs that don't fit into the simple version of the theory in your post. Anyone who doesn't fit ends up labeled AGP by default though, regardless of whether it is meaningful.

I'm glad you're doing it, OP.

>>8594691
>* An unusual sexuality which leads to a desire to be what you're attracted to
>* Something vague, but related to extremely GNC homosexuality

Is this what being AGP/believing in Blanchiardism means? I'm so confused about the term.

>>8595986
At this point I never get referred to with male pronouns and haven't been for years, so there's nothing to compare. It would be very offputting to have a guy use male pronouns with me of course.
In the early days of girl mode I would say if male pronouns were used I'd be too anxious and upset about being clocked to be aroused by anything.
I don't remember a guy using female pronouns when I was in boy mode, but male pronouns would only bother me if I was trying to present female.

>>8596030
Did you find it sexually arousing to be treated and referred to as a female.

Just a protip, beyond your autism, you are a gay male.

>>8596029
You should be confused because it doesn't make sense in the first place.

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>>8596037
It makes perfect sense. Some men are self hating autistic gays who feel more comfortable subverting their identity and forcing others to hesitantly refer to them as "females to avoid being called gay because they have fully internalized their homophobia and cannot relate to others due to their autism.

Others are not gays in denial, but rather crossdressers who derive sexual pleasure from being perceived as female. I'm not sure what part about this doesn't make sense; rather, I just think it doesn't compute with your gender delusions.

>>8596036
No, being seen as female wasn't arousing. The main thing I would feel at first is anxiety about passing. Being treated as female would help me feel less anxious since I knew what I was doing was working. Over time I became less anxious and being female was just normal life.
I am not a gay male, I'm a straight woman.

>>8596052
You are a gay male.

>>8596048
And what is the relevance of that graphic? I don't see any.

>>8596060
Sauce:

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/11/21/what-many-transgender-activists-dont-want-you-to-know-and-why-you-should-know-it-anyway/

As their label implies, homosexual MtF transsexuals are homosexual with

respect to their birth sex.That is, they are attracted exclusively to men.Although

some writers have objected to the use of the word homosexual to refer to individuals

who have sex with men as women (e.g., Gooren 2006),we retain the terminology

because it emphasizes the fact that homosexual MtFs are a subset of,

and developmentally related to, other homosexual males. Furthermore, it emphasizes

the most efficient and practical way of distinguishing homosexual and autogynephilic

transsexuals. Homosexual transsexuals are unambiguously, exclusively and intensely

attracted to attractive men; autogynephilic transsexuals have some other pattern of

sexual attraction.That is, an MtF transsexual who reports attraction to both men and

women, or a history of sexual attraction to women, or considerable sexual experience

with women, or attraction to neither men nor women—any clearly nonhomosexual

pattern—is almost certainly autogynephilic (Blanchard 1989a; Blanchard,

Clemmensen, and Steiner 1987).

>>8596060
Whatever.

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>>8596070
Ignore them, HSTS literally cannot contextualize themselves as *any* male paradigm - including a "gay male".

Meanwhile AGPs quite obviously contextualizing themselves as men for their entire lives.

>>8596103
Because they have autism and internalized homophobia.

Doesn't mean they are not something because they have a false fixed belief.

If I think my television is sentient that doesn't make it so.

>>8596048
Oh my god, this is so transphobic. How are you even on /lgbt/?

I understand the weird sex shapeshifty bit, becoming the thing you are attracted to. That sounds pretty common, actually. If it's coupled with dysphoria I can sympathize, maybe AGP is a way of being genderfluid? But if this is the reasoning behind it, that's some utter bullshit.

>>8596052
Thank you.

>>8596259
I'm gay and I understand that most "trans" are self-hating autistic gay males.

>>8596334
You're stupid, is what you are.

>>8596259
Blanchardians has not completely unambiguously documented why each type transitions, we only have some rough ideas about it. Effectively, this means that people can present the ideas with positive or negative spins on them while still believing the overall theory.

>>8596103
HSTS literally means "homosexual transsexual" you schizophrenic

>>8596870
What are the different theories?

>>8597223
There's a bajillion different ones, but most can be seen as expansions to or additional details on what I wrote earlier.

>>8597361
>>8597408

>>8596048
>>8596064
Too bad actual science disagrees with this baseless nonsense.
>>8584675


>>8596103
You believe Blanchard's theory is true.
Blanchard says you're a man.
Therefore you believe you're a man.
How is that not contextualizing yourself as a man?

Survey anon what do you of this thread >>8593244

>>8597487
Not sure what aspect of it you want me to comment on?

>>8597508
The blanchardian debate further down.

>>8597524
Some of the things they're discussing (e.g. the neurology thing) have also been discussed in this thread.

I should probably write my comment to things *in* the thread, rather than here.

>>8597487
I don't get why you keep asking them to respond. They've already shown ITT that they don't care about what's right.

>>8597733
You are insane if you think there's a major disconnect between what's useful and what's right. Models can only be useful by tapping into an underlying truth.

>>8597785
you still haven't shown how it's useful though other than that it coincides with your feefees

>>8597785
Millions of people *think* religion is useful. You *think* Blanchard's taxonomy is useful. The facts are that neither corresponds with reality.

>>8597733
>They've already shown ITT that they don't care about what's right.
???

>>8597830
Read the thread.

>>8597839
Point out what you're talking about.

>>8597850
I don't know how doing so would help if you've read the thread but okay.

>>8588147
>>8588276
>>8588309
>>8588332
>>8588343
>>8594593

Believing a theory is true despite evidence to the contrary because you like it better and think it is more useful is flat out illogical. It's like ignoring chemistry because it complicates alchemy.

>>8597864
But there's a bajillion alternative explanations to your observations about neurology! Genuine proof or disproof is extremely hard to transfer, because it is very much dependent on a big-picture view, which is very susceptible to things like cherry-picking.

It's not that I'm ignoring evidence to the contrary - in fact, I posted your study for discussion in the Secret Blanchardian Conspiracy Chatroom. It's just not convincing enough. I spend a lot of times looking for holes in the theories, and thinking about alternatives, including completely non-/anti-Blanchardian theories, in the hope that I can find something which explains odd exceptions.

(Relevant fact: the other people in the SBCC tend to complain that I'm obsessing too much about things that seem to be counterexamples, like Norah Vincent, and think I should just accept more noise in the models. BUT I WILL NEVER!)

The thing is, whatever the true theory is, it *needs* to be more useful than other theories, since a theory can't be useful without tapping into some underlying truth.

>>8597808
It's a *hard problem* to prove or evaluate usefulness when there's no easy test. I'd be totally up for an experiment where we set up a bunch of things in trans topics to make predictions about, and see who does better. If it turns out that I do consistently worse than people who accept feminine essence theory, I'd definitely have to reevaluate some things.

I'm not sure how to set up an experiment like this, though.

>>8597967
>But there's a bajillion alternative explanations to your observations about neurology!

There was a billion alternative explanations to the earth orbiting the sun too.

Nobody gives a fuck about what an armchair considers "not convincing enough".

>>8597967
>But there's a bajillion alternative explanations to your observations about neurology! Genuine proof or disproof is extremely hard to transfer, because it is very much dependent on a big-picture view, which is very susceptible to things like cherry-picking.

>It's not that I'm ignoring evidence to the contrary - in fact, I posted your study for discussion in the Secret Blanchardian Conspiracy Chatroom. It's just not convincing enough. I spend a lot of times looking for holes in the theories, and thinking about alternatives, including completely non-/anti-Blanchardian theories, in the hope that I can find something which explains odd exceptions.
You don't have any idea what the observations are because you haven't read what I linked in full. You haven't read what I linked because you have no interesting in data that goes against what you'd like to believe.

>The thing is, whatever the true theory is, it *needs* to be more useful than other theories, since a theory can't be useful without tapping into some underlying truth.
This is a logical fallacy of the highest order. It simply does not follow. A false theory, like creationism, might seem more useful than cosmology because it has concrete answers about the origin of the universe while cosmology is full of speculations. That doesn't make creationism more likely to be true. This is quite literally wishful thinking.

>It's a *hard problem* to prove or evaluate usefulness when there's no easy test. I'd be totally up for an experiment where we set up a bunch of things in trans topics to make predictions about, and see who does better. If it turns out that I do consistently worse than people who accept feminine essence theory, I'd definitely have to reevaluate some things.
Thing is, this is completely irrelevant to the actual physical evidence already produced

>>8597990
>>8597989
Blanchardfag would rather just dispute logic itself over accepting he's wrong.

NOOOO! IT'S NOT MY SHITTY UNPROVABLE HYPOTHESIS! IT'S YOOU!!!!!!!

How can you all not see the signs of pathological narcissism? The man literally trusts nothing but his internal world. Anything that doesn't fit with that false self - is instantly and gracelessly dismissed without argument or citation.

Why even bother feeding his lust for attention and narc supply?

>>8597967
>I'm obsessing too much about things that seem to be counterexamples, like Norah Vincent
Different anon, explain Norah Vincent?

>>8598002
>Blanchardfag
?

>he
>his
>The man
???

>>8598037
>Blanchardfag would rather get hannoyed over being outed and "le misgendered" (PS: Pick a side and choose one already faggot) over making a single point

>>8597990
>You don't have any idea what the observations are because you haven't read what I linked in full. You haven't read what I linked because you have no interesting in data that goes against what you'd like to believe.

I don't know the statistics and neurology to truly understand the implications in full.

> This is a logical fallacy of the highest order. It simply does not follow. A false theory, like creationism, might seem more useful than cosmology because it has concrete answers about the origin of the universe while cosmology is full of speculations. That doesn't make creationism more likely to be true. This is quite literally wishful thinking.

You are failing at distinguishing between "a person believes the theory is useful" and "the theory is useful". The second *is* associated with usefulness.

Heck, I could make that same argument to show that true theories aren't necessarily true. Look:

A false theory, like creationism, might seem more true than cosmology because people you trust like your preacher advocates them. That doesn't make creationism more likely to be true. This is quite literally wishful thinking.

The usefulness in Blanchardianism is that it makes correct predictions, not just on "big questions" but also in real life situations when interacting with other trans people.

>>8598002
I don't trust myself. I pay a lot of attention to factors which might indicate I'm actually delusional on this topic. This is why I keep bringing up the "BLANCHARDIANS SAY HSTSs CAN'T BE DETECTED IN INTERNET SAMPLES" point.

>>8598039
??? ??? ???

I've been looking for real-life cases of AAP because Blanchardianism implies that should be a thing, too. Why doesn't anybody talk about it?

>>8598051
>I don't trust myself

And nobody else trusts you too.

>trying to define what "usefulness" is now

How much more NPD can you get? Might as well write your own dictionary with nothing but *your* terms in this dream world.

ITT: Blanchardians skewered so hard Turkey has declared them delicious.

>>8598051
>I don't know the statistics and neurology to truly understand the implications in full.
Okay, but your ability or inability to understand something does not impact the truth value of something. If you want to know something you need to learn about it. At least go through some of the more plain English articles.

>You are failing at distinguishing between "a person believes the theory is useful" and "the theory is useful".
1) I've yet to see proof that it is useful in a way that this model isn't if you account for the difference between androphiles and gynephiles in general..
2) If a theory seems to function but is contradicted by undeniable evidence then it follows that the practical parts of the theory still work for some reason while the theoretical parts are simply untrue. That is, you found a cargo cult ruleset that produces results but you don't know the reason why it works.
3) You might be simply mistaken about it making useful predictions. Blanchard's big on people being mistaken about their own experience :^)

>>8598058
Blanchard wrote that he doesn't believe AAPs exist and just said that to not offend feminists. Not even making this up.

>Do you think autoandrophelia, where a woman is aroused by the thought of herself as a man, is a real paraphelia?

>No, I proposed it simply in order not to be accused of sexism, because there are all these women who want to say, “women can rape too, women can be pedophiles too, women can be exhibitionists too.” It’s a perverse expression of feminism, and so, I thought, let me jump the gun on this. I don’t think the phenomenon even exists.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ypp93m/heres-how-the-guy-who-wrote-the-manual-on-sex-talks-about-sex

>>8598083
>feminists yet again fucking over research out of political correctness politically correct

I mean yes it reflects badly on Blanchard that he was cowed but at the end of the day that's victim blaming.

>>8584537
I know that feel OP.

It doesn't help 'winning' the argument. But I find treating /lgbt/ much like a trans discussion on /v/ or /d/ helps give the energy and 'enjoyment' to keep going.

on other boards one learns to tune out the bigotry to make their point and convince a few anons that they can be a girl if they want.

Because Blanchard rhetoric is couched in pseudo-intellectual scientific sounding nonsense. There is a temptation to take it seriously when trying to counter it.

When in reality you can just call bullshit, provide informed sources if you think people will read, but ultimately dismiss it like you would the racist conspiracy theory on /v/ and concentrate on encouraging that anon that always plays as the girl to live their dreams.

>>8598091
>Blanchard rhetoric is couched in pseudo-intellectual scientific sounding nonsense
lolwut i believe it because it matches my experiences as an agp perfectly

>>8598083
>>8598088
I recently watched a video from an internet celebrity formerly known as JesuOtaku and thought they might be a candidate. What they talked about is like a mirror image of AGP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2He0zJgNak
Do you think they may be AAP?

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>>8598058

I really wish Blanchard's useful typology (A?P vs. HSTS) became divorced from his likely erroneous causality.

>>8598122
>useful

>>8598284
???

>>8584537
I rate the pro Blanchard posters as 95% shitters and the anti Blanchard posters like yourself as 80% shitters.

>>8597223
female essence, that gays are neurologically intersex but physically male and must transition physically to match their neurological condition vs hsts which holds that some gay men, the most feminine ones, who have a higher incidence of autism, have such severe body dysmorphia they feel a compulsion to change their body to fit their mental un-wellness as well as to enable them to seduce "straight" males.

>>8597463
this is actual science. Read the whole page. Plenty of well-sourced studies, not all by Blanchard. There is no actual compelling controlled, blinded evidence that gay males can be women neurologically. There IS compelling evidence that some gay males are extremely feminine and have high degrees of autism and body dysmorphia.

There is 0 evidence that gay males or crossdressers have brains indistinguishable from that of females prior to use of hormones.

There is zero evidence transsexuals are anything other than a mix of heterosexual crossdressers and extremely feminine homosexuals who wish to conform to a heterosexual framework mentally by dating "straight" or "bisexual" males and viewing themselves as heterosexual women enabled by their autism and "transitioning" by giving in to their body dysmorphia rather than treating it with antipsychotics and talk therapy.

>>8598635
You're responding to a post that includes a bunch of citations that refute your response. What are you even trying to accomplish? I've read Bailey years ago.

>There is no actual compelling controlled, blinded evidence that gay males can be women neurologically.
The articles I've linked show that trans people are *halfway* neurologically female.

>There is 0 evidence that gay males or crossdressers have brains indistinguishable from that of females prior to use of hormones.
That's right. They're not indistinguishable. Transsexuals have *intersexed* brains, i.e. brains that are between those of men and women, before hormones.

>There is zero evidence transsexuals are anything other than a mix of heterosexual crossdressers and extremely feminine homosexuals who wish to conform to a heterosexual framework mentally by dating "straight" or "bisexual" males and viewing themselves as heterosexual women enabled by their autism and "transitioning" by giving in to their body dysmorphia rather than treating it with antipsychotics and talk therapy.
Wrong, as shown by all of the papers I've linked. Transsexuals are neurologically intersexed as a result of abnormal natal development.

>>8598704
How can one be halfway neurologically female? Either one is a female or is not. Unless their brains are fully female there is no discordance.

Are all these studies controlled such that the patients did not use hormones because usually if they are autopsying you it is after death and hormones.

Transsexuals are gay males whose autism enables delusions. There is nothing more to the issue. Most of you refuse to see a psychiatrist and take antipsychotics or see a talk therapist who would encourage you to have comfort in a gay male identity. How much do you have to hate yourself and hate gay people to go to that much trouble to refuse to call yourself a gay male when you are a man who has sex with men mostly?

>>8598726
Furthermore, acting upon a fixed false belief does not negate its falsehood. You developed as a homosexual male and continue to be one no matter your use of hormones or your dress.

Being feminine for a male does not make one a female.

>>8598704
Can you link to the citations? Sucks that posters don't have an ID on this board to find their other posters.

My point is there is a huge difference between an autistic gay male being uncomfortable with their sexual identity and trying to (poorly) replicate being a female and actually being intersex. Believing you are something doesn't make it so.

>>8598726
>How can one be halfway neurologically female? Either one is a female or is not. Unless their brains are fully female there is no discordance.
This is factually wrong, as shown by the papers I've posted.

>Are all these studies controlled such that the patients did not use hormones because usually if they are autopsying you it is after death and hormones
The studies control for hormones, yes.

>Transsexuals are gay males whose autism enables delusions. There is nothing more to the issue
Factually untrue.

> Most of you refuse to see a psychiatrist and take antipsychotics or see a talk therapist who would encourage you to have comfort in a gay male identity. How much do you have to hate yourself and hate gay people to go to that much trouble to refuse to call yourself a gay male when you are a man who has sex with men mostly?
The actual medical community supports the position I'm espousing. A psychiatrist would tell a transsexual to go see a gender specialist, who will in turn tell them to transition.

>>8598740
>Being feminine for a male does not make one a female.
Having a half-female brain makes one intersex, though.

>>8598751
Here:
>>8584675

>My point is there is a huge difference between an autistic gay male being uncomfortable with their sexual identity and trying to (poorly) replicate being a female and actually being intersex. Believing you are something doesn't make it so.
There's concrete physical evidence that trans people are neurologically intersex, before hormones. That's not to say that it is impossible for someone gay to mistake themselves for someone trans, but that being trans is a specific medical condition that is visible in brain scans.

>>8584675
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
That's a pretty small sample.

Have those results been replicated?

>>8598847
I'm not saying gays are "mistaking" themselves for trans, I'm saying trans doesn't exist and is a form of intentional gay erasure by extremely feminine and "neurodiverse" gay males.

>>8598870
If you only have 20 people for your sample I don't think you can establish causality. People have natural variances in brain size of particular parts.

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>>8598884
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2011/11/09/the-transsexual-brain/

>>8598635
>treating it with antipsychotics and talk therapy.
There's the antipsychotic meme rearing its ugly head again.

>>8598870
>Have those results been replicated?
I don't think there's another paper examining white matter tracts. There are a lot of different studies along the same lines though, looking at different areas of the brain and reaching similar conclusions. I always link this one in particular because it shows that even gynephilic pre-everything MTFs exhibit these features. That orientation doesn't matter.
>That's a pretty small sample.
It's still larger than the one found in many of Blanchard's studies, and here we have actual physical evidence as opposed to self-reports and theories.

>>8598874
Okay, and that's untrue.

>>8598884
Brains have sexually dimorphic regions. People don't naturally fall halfway between male and female. We have decades of research to show that's the case since the difference between women and men has been studied a lot.

>>8598934
Are you saying they have been proven not to work? I can understand not wanting to take them due to weight gain potential but that doesn't mean they cannot be clinically helpful.

>>8598943
How is trans not gay erasure? You have biological males who sleep with other males claiming to be straight women and refusing to admit to being gay.

>>8598726
>How can one be halfway neurologically female?
Why does it have to be either/or? With prenatal development all kinds of things can and do go wrong, and can go wrong to different degrees. Male/female differentiation is a process that doesn't always go to completion.

>>8598917
There are many different parameters to look at. Some differ. The very links I cited point that out.

>>8598951
Because trans are desperate to claim it is more than autism, effeminacy, and severe body dysmorphia when it isn't. And we don't see dramatic, compelling results that gay males have "female" brains vs. straight males.

>>8598956
Ok but not everyone agrees and the idea that transgender people are neurologically intersex is not supported by all the data:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21467211

>>8598963
In 2002, the brain-sex theory of transsexualism was seriously challenged by some unexpected findings published by Chung, De Vries, and Swaab. They observed that significant sexual dimorphism in BSTc volume and neuron number does not develop in humans until adulthood. Most MtF transsexuals, however, report that their feelings of gender dysphoria began in early childhood (e.g., Lawrence, 2003). It is difficult to see how the volume and neuron number of the BSTc could be neuroanatomical markers for gender identity if they have not yet become sexually dimorphic by the time cross-gender feelings have become apparent. Recognizing this difficulty, Chung et al. wrote:

Late sexual differentiation of the human BSTc volume also affects our perception about the relationship between BSTs [sic] volume and transsexuality. . . . Epidemiological studies show that the awareness of gender problems is generally present much earlier. Indeed, [about] 67-78% of transsexuals in adulthood report having strong feelings of being born in the wrong body from childhood onward. (p. 1032)
It is still possible to imagine explanations of these findings that would be consistent with the hypothesis that BSTc volume and neuron number in adulthood are markers for gender identity in transsexuals. Chung et al. (2002) conjectured that fetal or neonatal hormone levels could affect gender identity and could also produce changes in BSTc "synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content" (p. 1032) that might not affect BSTc volume or neuron number immediately, but might do so during adulthood. Alternatively, they suggested, failure to develop a gender identity consistent with one's somatic sex might affect adult BSTc volume and neuron number by some unspecified mechanism.

http://annelawrence.com/brain-sex_critique.html

>>8598945
They aren't any more effective than gay conversion therapy.

>>8598949
Well, for one, these people are not wholly male. They're between male and female.
By the way it's not just androphiles - this is also true for gynephiles.

>>8598874
>intentional gay erasure
It sounds like you're getting political on this issue. For those of us who suffered from severe gender dysphoria there was nothing at all political about it. It was about how to deal with the suffering.

>>8598945
>Are you saying they have been proven not to work?
They haven't been proven *to* work, so they aren't used for gender dysphoria unless someone has a different condition they do work for.

>>8598874
this theory does not at all explain why a 2/3rds of the trans population are not exclusively androphylic

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>>8598968
>They aren't any more effective than gay conversion therapy.

>They're between male and female.

They are gay males biologically. Do you deny this?

>>8598969
It absolutely is political to claim that some biological gay males are straight women and therefore deserve the rights and laws accorded to women such a protection under the Civil Rights Act that gays don't get but women do.

It is also 100% intentional gay erasure to be XY and have sex with other XY males and claim you are not a gay male.

>>8598988
So people fear testing them or transsexuals refuse to take them because of the weight gain?

>his theory does not at all explain why a 2/3rds of the trans population are not exclusively androphylic

see pic

>>8598945
Have antipsychotics and talk therapy been proven not to cure homosexuals?

>>8598958
>Because trans are desperate to claim it is more than autism, effeminacy, and severe body dysmorphia when it isn't.
And all of the neurologists are in on it, right?

>>8598963
>Ok but not everyone agrees and the idea that transgender people are neurologically intersex
We're at the point where it is impossible to disagree about this. This is what the evidence says. We can argue about specific regions but not about the big picture.

>Savic's study
I've read that study and it's actually in the Wikipedia link I've posted upthread! It does indeed show that in terms of white matter *volume* gynephilic MTFs don't differ from men, but in the Discussion section the very same study goes into how the difference might be a network effect and that this should be explored. The white matter tract study shows *this is exactly the case*. So the studies don't actually contradict each other. Trans people occupy a position between men and women in most areas, look like their natal sex in some and look like the sex they identify with completely in others (BSTcs).

>>8598967
I know of this as well. That's actually my favored explanation for adult-onset dysphoria. Thankfully the argument for intersexuality no longer relies on BSTcs alone. There are many different regions that exhibit these male-female intermediate features.