Transitioning as an escape/pathway for failed males

>>8045636

It's the job of a proper companion, the boyfriend of a transgender, to assume total control over your essence and extinguish all traces of masculinity, physical and psychological, and place you in a comfortable state of submission, your natural state. Most transgenders appear to be natural slaves in the Aristotelian sense. They take to cultivating breasts and altering their bodies cosmetically -- with a particular emphasis on enhancing sexual stimuli normally reserved for females, like buttocks and breasts (lips too).

To survive, you reduce yourselves to castrates and scramble for attention and validation from proper males, males who might otherwise bully or humiliate you if not for your facade as females. A male who adopts the appearance of a female disarms us. Whereas before we'd be inclined to torment you mentally and physically, female simulacra who are sufficiently convincing and pathetic (truly desperate and lonely souls) stimulate masculine instincts normally reserved for females and children -- a desire to protect and dominate.

This trend of males transitioning into females, which has exploded in North America and Europe, constitutes a pathway for the lowliest and weakest of our males. These are mostly nonviables who couldn't hack it in competition with other males and who resort to taking it up the rear, while embarrassing themselves by moaning in the most pathetic (but frankly attractive) manner possible, in a bid for approval and social acceptance.

What about the lesbians?

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>>8045647
the what?

>>8045636
>they discover and cling to the narrative that they're in possession a feminine essence and happen to be victims of nature; females born into male bodies.
>This is a comforting view of oneself for these people -- victims in need of support and understanding -- but it's merely a convenient fiction, a delusion
what if i admit it tho?

>>8045636
>>8045640
You sound like an idiot when you talk about something you just personally discovered like a colonial doctor from the 1830s taking shots in the dark at it... when modern medicine has actual studies on it with regards to both psychology and neurology.

Put down the monocle, shave your mutton chops, put away the snuff box, and learn to use google.

>>8045636
>in exchange, penetrate/humiliate him

That should be: in exchange, allows himself to be penetrated/humiliated.

This was written hastily, it doesn't flow in the way I'd like it to.

>>8045659

You're ahead of the rest.

>>8045661

I reject the feminine essence theory. Most transgenders are desperate and lowly males with profound homosexuality.

tfw being dominated and controlled is my fetish

you just have a fetish

>>8045661
The second post reveals that he's a fetishist chaser. This is all shit he makes up in his head to reconcile the fact that he likes dick.

>>8045640
>>8045636
Kek, before transition i was an alpha male, had to literally beat women off me, and ran a company with great success. This completely deflates your argument

>>8045636
>>8045640
I was popular all throughout highschool and a bit of a class clown who was liked by both students and teachers(barring the more stuffy teachers and dudes I had beef with) and tho a lot of women asked me out I always turned them down because I knew things wouldn't work out because I was a weird fuck who wanted to be a girl and that things would just be weird. Now I'm an ugly girl who mostly just looks like a guy with a girlfriend and I'm still pretty well liked by most people.

>>8045663
>Most transgenders are desperate and lowly males with profound homosexuality.
Only 20% are exclusively androphile.

>>8045678
>and tho a lot of women asked me out I always turned them down because I knew things wouldn't work out because I was a weird fuck who wanted to be a girl and that things would just be weird. Now I'm an ugly girl
Me desu senpai

>>8045687
It's the worst when you finally meet that one girl who likes playing with your hair, always wants to put makeup on you as a joke, makes you think you have a real female friend, and then it turns out she just wanted you to be her chad boyfriend all along.

>>8045692
Lost me there, i was always into dudes, currently have an amazing bf that is cute and strong

>>8045679

Homosexual or not, I'd say that statement is true for a large subset of cases. They are lowly and desperate for attention, companionship -- whatever -- and cannot compete as males.

>>8045677

You're an exception. From what I gathered, most of these males are bullied relentlessly or simply have a strong desire to be dominated. It's one, the other, or both for the majority of transgenders.

>>8045663
>I reject the feminine essence theory.
Neurology isn't fucking moon magic you idiot.

>>8045698
>an amazing bf that is cute and strong
Don't objectify him.

>>8045673
It's silly. Like... you realize you can be a dominant guy and get a trans girl without being a borderline serial rapist with a full-on psychotic manifesto.

>>8045636
>for attention and validation from proper males
Op I'm the CEO of my own company, I'm about as high on that ego food chain as someone can get, my only boss is the IRS and a few banks. My life prior to transition was one many of my -male- friends envied, so to claim that all trans women are failed males seems a bit like reaching. The validation I receive as a woman is nice, but only because it's a gesture that tells me "you did it". A pat on the back, so to speak.

>>8045698
I didn't even mean that in a romantic sense. I just mean it's terrible to feel like you've really got a friend that sees you as just one of the girls only to find out she's just been craving your dick.

>>8045715
Awww adorable widdle muscley man ^.^

>>8045705

Point to some studies that convincingly differentiate the brains of extreme homosexual males from homosexual MTF transsexuals. That which is most consistent with the "feminine essence theory" are extreme homosexuals who, psychologically and on the basis of neuroanatomy, do resemble females in a number of ways.

>>8045715
But i love him!

>>8045718
That's really good for you glad you made it.

>>8045718

I do recognize and appreciate exceptions, but the rule seems to point in the opposite direction.

>>8045677
Then why did you transition? Because despite your success you couldn't cope with it psychologically and needed a man to look after you instead.

>>8045677
>before transition i was an alpha male

t. same guy who wrote the "what the fuck did you just say to me" copypasta

god i can't wait for islamic-russo-orthodox-pagan-white-nationalist alliance to stack you fuckers like sandbags a mile high

>>8045746
>a man to look after you
Did you step out of a time machine from the 19th century?

This is some nice bait, mate.

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>>8045725
>extreme homosexual males

>>8045753
Admit it. OP is right.

>>8045746
Sure

>>8045759

I am a chaser. Most males who entertain transgenders are chasers. Those who claim otherwise are simply dishonest.

When watching a MTF getting fucked, watching that broken expression on its face -- the sheer humiliation of being penetrated like a broad -- is exciting. These are broken men who reduce themselves to castrates for our pleasure (in hopes of receiving comfort and attention.)

>>8045766

lol -- I should have phrased that as "males with extreme homosexuality"

>>8045725
>Point to some studies that convincingly differentiate the brains of extreme homosexual males from homosexual MTF transsexuals.
Ok.

http://sindromebenjamin.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/brainsex.pdf
>TRANSSEXUALS have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psycho-genie or biological aetiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years1,2. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour3,4, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones5,6.

Are you gonna stop now, or are you still jacking off?

>>8045771
lol said the anonymous OP who didn't even bother to change his typing style

>>8045636
I went through my transition recently too, it was hard. sixtwosix fourseveneight 9479

>>8045779

> Watching an MTF getting fucked, viewing that* -- I'm exhausted, pardon the errors.

>>8045784

Did this study analyze the brains of post-treatment or pre-treatment transsexuals? I noted that "independent of sexual orientation" note, however there are data showing a feminine brain structure among homosexuals. I'm asking for a comparison between the brains of homosexual males and MTFs (ideally before hormone therapy.)

Give me a few minutes to review the thing.

>>8045789

That wasn't me.

>>8045784
Sigh, not the tired Zhou et al study, mate. You do know all the trans people tested there had undergone hormone treatment, and later studies show that hormone treatment in adulthood DOES create those size changes?

"A study by Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) demonstrated the profound effect of transgender hormone therapy on brain volume in transsexuals: In eight MtF transsexuals treated for 4 months with ethinyl estradiol and CPA, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume decreased significantly with hormone therapy, based on pre- and post-treatment MRI studies. In a control group of nine untreated nontranssexual men, total brain volume and hypothalamic volume increased slightly over a similar period. In six FtM transsexuals treated for 4 months with testosterone, total brain volume increased and hypothalamic volume remained unchanged, whereas in a control group of six untreated nontranssexual women, total brain volume remained unchanged and hypothalamic volume decreased".

Hulshoff Pol et al. wrote:

>The findings suggest that treatment of MFs with estrogens and antiandrogens decreases the male brain size toward female proportions, whereas treatment of FMs with androgens (not substantially affecting circulating estrogen levels) increases the female brain size toward male proportions. The magnitude of this change (i.e., 31 ml over a 4-month period) is striking, since it signifies a decrease in brain volume, which is at least ten times the average decrease of about 2.5 ml a year in healthy adults. . . The total brain volume changes are at least in part due to changes in medial brain structures surrounding [the] ventricles (including, but not limited to, the hypothalamus . . .).

>>8045784
Of course our brains are different. Your brain changes over your life and being submissive and weak will make our brains like women's.

>>8045802

"Not surprisingly, Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) conjectured that cross-sex hormone therapy might have been responsible for the Zhou/Kruijver findings:

>The bed nucleus of the stria terminalis of the hypothalamus, larger in males than in females, was found to be of female size in six MFs and of male size in one FM. All these transsexuals had received cross-sex hormone treatment before their brains were studied. Therefore, the altered size of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis could have been due to the exposure of cross-sex hormones in adult life."

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>>8045771
My bf is not my keeper, he's just very particular about where I go and who I talk to. Which, you know, is none of your business. Allah willing, pbuh, if you talk directly to me again without a chaperone present, I will show you my shoe!

>>8045784
>>8045795

Also, analyzing only the BST isn't terribly convincing. I realize this area might be a useful proxy by virtue of being highly sexually differentiated, but it's not terribly meaningful in isolation.

The proposition is that MTF transsexuals are in possession of female brains. This isn't true. At most, some are in possession of homosexual brains.

Why didn't that study control for treatment?

>>8045636
OP do you know that if you force T on cis girls you would get the same 'failed men'?

All in all, no study I have ever seen has successfully been able to prove that transgender people are born with "different brains". It's a damn tricky thing to study because the alternative is to scan the brains of pretty, detect say BST size abnormalities (or an engorged putamen as per Luders et al. 2009):

>We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men.

>Overall, our study provides evidence that MTF transsexuals possess regional gray matter volumes mostly consistent with control males. However, the putamen was found to be “feminized” in MTF transsexuals.

>Further research needs to resolve whether the observed distinct features in the brains of transsexuals influence their gender identity or possibly are a consequence of being transsexual. Alternatively, other variables may be independently affecting both the expression of a transsexual identity and the neuroanatomy in transsexuals that led to the observed association between both. Some possible candidates include genetic predisposition, psychosocial and environmental influences, hormonal exposures, or most likely an interplay between these variables.

So essentially, as far as I've read, we don't know, and saying that we do is irresponsible.

>>8045847
>and saying that we do is irresponsible.
Like that will stop them. They're practically religious.

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>>8045853
>They're practically religious
Are you not?

>>8045842
Not OP, but proof? Every case I'm familiar with of, for example, botched surgeries on baby boys that end up with them losing their penis and tried to be raised as females as far as I've seen has made it clear enough that you can't raise a baby as whatever you like, because they'll rebel and get actually suicidal and depressed.

>>8045847
>>8045853

OP here: yes indeed, and that ties into my contention that it constitutes a kind of delusion, a coping mechanism.

> I'm not a defective loser who's taken to castrating himself and growing tits for companionship, I'm a REAL girl!

As to whether or not MTF transsexuals actually possess female brains, which doesn't appear to be the case, is a separate matter.

>>8045863
I recommend giving this documentary a look. You can actually look at the practice of a man who works with intersex children and babies with genital abnormalities. The entire series is on Youtube, in general I'd recommend it very strongly.

https://youtu.be/97dBxYGGUGk

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>>8045864
>I'm a REAL girl!
You came to the wrong neighborhood.

>>8045847
It's a damn tricky thing to study because the alternative is to scan the brains of pretty much a vast amount of random babies, detect say BST size abnormalities (or an engorged putamen as per Luders et al. 2009) and make a longitudinal study throughout their lives and see who ends up being trans*

Forgot half of my phrasing there.

>>8045636
But is transitioning a method of salvaging yourself for ALL failed males? It seems like an even riskier life to live with discrimination in the workplace, health care industry, etc which especially depends on where you live.

>>8045891
hmm i wonder why so many who transition end up as sex workers

>>8045802
Second study to address your concerns about HRT:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193

>Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers.

Also the Hulshoff Pol et al. study only concerns the volume of the whole brain, not the neuron count in the BSTc.

>>8045816
>Also, analyzing only the BST isn't terribly convincing.
I don't care if you personally aren't convinced. Your opinion has no bearing on these findings, and you're just moving the goalposts at this point. This isn't the only study about brain differences either, just the most popular. It's ok to like trans women without being a sadistic sociopath about it OP.

>>8045887
What about the studies showing that identical twins are more likely to be transgender than fraternal ones?

>>8045887
That's clearly the only way to do it because anything else is only looking at their brains much later in life.

You need that early data.

>>8045927
Identical twins will experience different childhoods due to being identical compared to fraternal ones.

>>8045891
tranny life is a tough road, and majority don't make it, so this is all for nothing

>>8045917
Second study to address your concerns about HRT:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1084313

I'm reading the full article now, and I don't know where they explain how they reached that conclusion that HRT didn't affect them, they just slap it in the abstract as far as I can see. I also pulled up a different review accusing them of pulling them out of their ass.

A paper by Chung et al (2000) studied how the volume of the BSTc varied with age in both male and female subjects. They found that the dimorphism was only prevalent in adulthood. Suggesting that the differences found by Zhou and Kruijver are not a cause of gender dysphoria but rather a result.

(Chung, Vries, and Swaab. "Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood." Brain Research (2001).

>>8046029
I'll leave the Chung article there (I haven't read it) to see what it states.

>>8046041
Gave it a look, you can read it here:
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/3/1027

Essentially, what's of note is:

>The human BST-dspm seems to become sexually dimorphic at approximately puberty, as suggested by the developmental time points that were included in the study by Allen and Gorski (1990). Indeed, the BST-dspm appeared to be smaller in females than in males from ∼14 years of age.

So this differentiation and dimorphism is only apparent in humans after the onset of puberty, which raises important questions about the "wrong brain" theory.

>>8046091

Essentially, Chung et al. reach two possible hypotheses:

1) Hormonal issues in the womb that simply take long to materialize, such as phenobarbital or diphantoin usage during pregnancy, congenital adrenal hyperplasia in girls, etc.

2)Alternatively, it must also be taken into consideration that changes in BSTc volume in male-to-female transsexuals may be the result of a failure to develop a male-like gender identity.

The problem is that there's surprisingly few solid, conclusive studies with sizable samples across the board. Ultimately, I'm open minded. I won't lie, I struggle with transphobia, but understanding it would help me get over it, but until then I'm not comfortable with people spreading the idea that we're 100% sure what it is.

>>8046091
So it is possible to have the wrong brain, but only following puberty. Give kids the right hormones before then and you can make them like their body, whichever it is.

>>8046132
>I won't lie, I struggle with transphobia,
Why?

>>8046154
Well, it's not entirely that clear, and it's not exactly what Chung suggests. The problem with all transgender studies is always knowing what's first, the chicken or the egg.

What Chung suggests is that differences in BSTc only show up during puberty, but they can't know if the brain is already "predisposed" to trigger those differences in puberty the moment you're born, or if it does so when puberty strikes. Of course, anecdotal evidence of children voicing dysphoria when they were young has to have its place somewhere, but the problem is that dysphoria in youth is such a mess that I don't know. Kids have dysphoria and aren't TS, others are, some don't recall being dysphoric and then they're TS...

http://transcience-project.org/ is a site I just find that seems quite rigorous in compiling in an honest way the scientific research, they have a whole database of reviews.

http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html is essentially a shortened version of relevant articles pertaining the brain. Happy reading.

>>8046168
Because I think in some places we're making terrible decisions on what "accepting it" is. In at least 4 European countries (and more pushing for it) as much as in several US States you can change your legal gender through self-determination. You don't have to even transition. I think it's careless, and also I think that transgenderism might not just be one thing. Evidence suggests that FtM and MtF trans people don't follow the same brain processes of dysphoria, so maybe we're researching, speaking and legislating in one way over something that might be a spectrum of things.

>>8046214
What's wrong with changing legal gender that easily?

What are the FtM/MtF dysphoria differences?

If there is a spectrum of things, how does that change the way we need to research, speak and legislate?

>>8046246
>What's wrong with changing legal gender that easily?
Abuse of the system. Essentially dysphoria becomes irrelevant at that point, and you can report your own gender, leading to all kinds of abuse. If you open a scholarship for women in a future with self-identification, expect cis men to start applying and taking them from women because they're scum. It hurts the dysphoric transexuals who really want to transition.

>What are the FtM/MtF dysphoria differences?
http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html in it's Conclusions hints at the possibility of both kinds of dysphoria having different root causes. I haven't looked into it, but I consider the source from what I've seen a comprehensive and sensible one.

>If there is a spectrum of things, how does that change the way we need to research, speak and legislate?
Because there might not be a unitary, single thing about what "trans" means. Knowing what "trans" means, if there are or aren't different types of transsexuals, or if some people we characterize as transsexuals aren't transsexuals at all is essential (in my opinion) to having a working definition that helps as many people as possible in the best way possible.

>>8045640
>To survive, you reduce yourselves to castrates and scramble for attention and validation from proper males, males who might otherwise bully or humiliate you if not for your facade as females.

You have a valid point.

Before transition, I occasionally got bullied, singled out for being tiny, skinny, short-ish pathetic beta manlet.

After transition, my femininity, and the pretty good looks that come with it, covers that small size and I actually never get bullied anymore.

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>>8046318
>tfw i bully people as a tranny, even irl
Do you have zero confidence? What's wrong with you?

>>8046326
Girls can get away with nastiness guys never could.

>>8046318

Precisely -- being an imperfect woman is a great improvement over life as an inadequate male. Although you'll never be accepted as a genuine woman, males will respond to you softly and quite a few would enjoy dominating you as a wifey.

>>8046384
>dominating you as a wifey
Just as long as I get to dominate in the bedroom.

>>8046384
would you still call me a woman as you ream my tight boipussy

>>8046407

Yes, I'm happy to treat an MTF as a broad if she dedicates herself to serving and pleasuring me. You're certainly not a man and girls like you need to be roughed up and controlled.

>>8046421
you sound fat

>>8046283
>you can report your own gender, leading to all kinds of abuse. If you open a scholarship for women in a future with self-identification, expect cis men to start applying and taking them from women because they're scum.
I see the problem. What's the answer, besides more research to get actual diagnostic tools?

>It hurts the dysphoric transexuals who really want to transition.
I can see that it's an abuse of the system but how does it hurt dysphoric transexuals?

>in it's Conclusions hints at the possibility of both kinds of dysphoria having different root causes.
Sadly it doesn't reference that to any of the studies or go into more detail. What do you think is up with that difference between the two kinds?

>Knowing what "trans" means, if there are or aren't different types of transsexuals, or if some people we characterize as transsexuals aren't transsexuals at all is essential (in my opinion) to having a working definition that helps as many people as possible in the best way possible.
I can see potential problems here. What if it turns out that FtMs are men and shouldn't be treated as woman under the law but MtFs aren't and should keep being treated as men, or vice versa?

The dangers of that are almost worse than letting people self-identify.

>>8046437

6'3 at 190 pounds. Bearded with a deep, commanding voice.

I was visited the Philippines last year and made a point of connecting with 18 and 19-year-old ladyboys (effeminate gays who hadn't initiated hormone therapy) -- they quivered as I positioned their bodies and, except for one, spent the first session in tears. MTFs in SE Asia are wonderfully pliant. One of them was given the role as my "wifey" and she complied with every single instruction I issued, even tying my shoes or crossing her legs (if I felt she was sitting in too masculine a position.) She sat in the next room as I fucked other girls, accepting the fact that retaining a white guy requires openness to infidelity.

>>8046406
but our place is being weak and submissive and getting punished, not dominating anyone!

>>8046421
>a broad
hahaha please stop overcompensating you are pathetic

>>8046439
>I see the problem. What's the answer, besides more research to get actual diagnostic tools?
I'd halt on the self-identification until we know more. Self-ID is what will eventually get you a cis man in your locker room because he claims to be a woman. It renders male and female spaces useless, and many people will be scared. For now, despite my troubles with trans people, I understand that under certain circumstances transition is the best current alternative. The good thing about transition to me is that it speaks of you establishing a social contract with me "I know you might not see me as a woman, but I'm doing what's possible to me to present as such, please acknowledge this". I wholeheartedly respect that, and will always refer to you as whatever you want me to. But I do think that needing some form of transition at least raises the bar a bit so that we can ensure the "safety" of more people. Yes, those who can't transition or won't will have it rough, but I think it's better for all.

>I can see that it's an abuse of the system but how does it hurt dysphoric transexuals?
To me it devalues their actual condition in the eyes of the general public, essentially it doesn't matter if you change your gender because you want to or because you feel you need to, you already have a one-size-fits-all answer, there you have your document, we don't need to talk about you again.

>Sadly it doesn't reference that to any of the studies or go into more detail. What do you think is up with that difference between the two kinds?
I'm no expert, I'm just some random /pol/ack, but I do see FtMs and MtFs behave a lot differently. FtMs sometimes feel and act like stereotyped version of a woman, whereas FtMs (apart from being a lot less numerous from my experience) I've generally found to be more ... I struggle to use the word "more levelheaded" before you guys jump at my throat. It's hard to put into words. I do think that a lot of males who transition are fetishists.

>>8046455
quality post right here

>>8046439
cont.: I just struggle with the thought that a lot of MtF don't want to be female. They want to be transexuals. It's a subtle distinction. (inb4 kys bigot)

>I can see potential problems here. What if it turns out that FtMs are men and shouldn't be treated as woman under the law but MtFs aren't and should keep being treated as men, or vice versa?
Ideally, I think that the best solution as someone who is not trans, and of course with only my experience in account, I think "trans" should form its own separate legal marker, to better account for the rights they demand, without stepping on the rights biological males and females might find their inclusion in their own gender marker might imply. Of course, I'm sure trans people loathe this idea.

>>8046494
>without stepping on the rights biological males and females might find their inclusion in their own gender marker might *endanger*.

Fixed my brain fart.

That seems kind of silly. Becoming a woman isn't gonna make your life all that much easier, even if you pass 100%. I'm a man and if I woke up as a woman one day I'd feel bummed because many parts of my life would get harder. Mainly because I would have more trouble being taken seriously by my colleagues, but also because of lower strength and stamina, worrying about creeps, and having a period (though mtfs don't deal with that last part.) Overall, I think being a man is better.

>>8046508
>I would have more trouble being taken seriously by my colleagues, but also because of lower strength and stamina, worrying about creeps, and having a period (though mtfs don't deal with that last part.)

As a trans girl who looked like a hideous beta weakling manlet before transition, failed males don't get those male privileges either. They aren't physically strong enough for the option of working hard labor for money. Instead of worrying about creeps sexually harassing them, they worry about creeps bullying them for being small. Due to looking young for a male my age I never got taken seriously either.

>>8046484
>The good thing about transition to me is that it speaks of you establishing a social contract with me "I know you might not see me as a woman, but I'm doing what's possible to me to present as such, please acknowledge this".
The problem here is is some trans women are still trans women but wouldn't be better off transitioning. If it's medically the wrong thing for them then they shouldn't be forced into it to be acknowledged as a woman.

This is hypothetical obviously until we know more about the different trans conditions that may exist. But the point is that when we do we may end up with someone who looks like a man being legitimately a woman in the women's locker room after all.

>you already have a one-size-fits-all answer,
My concern is transition being seen as this.

>I'm no expert, I'm just some random /pol/ack, but I do see FtMs and MtFs behave a lot differently.
Could that just be the different impact of being raised as a girl when you're really a boy and being raised as a boy when you're really a girl?

No offense taken at the levelheaded observation, although there''s lots of individual variation too.

You seem very open minded and tolerant for a /pol/ack.

>I do think that a lot of males who transition are fetishists.
Why do you think that?

It's possible even if they seem like it that more research will prove they are women after all and that they should get to use women's locker rooms and everything else you mentioned. On the other hand, if you're right and they are cis but still transition then halting self-ID isn't keeping them out of female spaces, or male spaces for fetishist women.

didn't read your terf diatribe tb.h

>>8046494
>I just struggle with the thought that a lot of MtF don't want to be female. They want to be transexuals. It's a subtle distinction.
Can you explain the distinction?

It could be that for some at least MtF that is their legitimate identity. As you said, more research should help.

>I think "trans" should form its own separate legal marker, to better account for the rights they demand, without stepping on the rights biological males and females
I'm interested in your idea. What rights should it include and which rights of biological males and females would it protect?

I'm not outright against this proposal but there would need to be more studies to tell us which rights trans people should/shouldn't get and for which trans people it would apply.

>>8046628
>The problem here is is some trans women are still trans women but wouldn't be better off transitioning. If it's medically the wrong thing for them then they shouldn't be forced into it to be acknowledged as a woman.
So do your best under the circumstances, it doesn't matter to me. I can take a hon in a dress, I'm not so cool with Twitter neckbeards who claim to be transbians for libfem brownie points.

>My concern is transition being seen as this.
As is mine, but the moment you push for a one-size-fits-all solution like "well if you want your circumstance doesn't matter, just change your legal sex", then you have essentially surrendered to the idea that the work with trans people is done, they have "their rights".

>Could that just be the different impact of being raised as a girl when you're really a boy and being raised as a boy when you're really a girl?
MtFs are very broadly in my experience often very meek girls, very "pornified" women (answering to a male canon of beauty), or often just behave absolutely boyishly. Of course, #NotAllWomen. Thank you for the comment on being open minded, I was called a sociopath and an aspie just this morning on this board in a similar topic. I'm just undergoing a bit of a belief crisis. I used to be SJW levels of permissive, but I have some guttural "morals" that keep getting in the way. Maybe /pol/ has just spoonfed me bigotry, so I'm trying to keep my cool in being open-minded but trying to word my observations somehow.

>Why do you think that?
Because in some cases (I think some e-celeb trannies fall under this category) the women they want to become are the women the average man is looking for in porn. There's tons of videos of "trans men" picking their first clothes, and for instance older men have a distinct tendency to just pick short, tight dresses and absurd cleavage.

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look at these failed males, makers of one of the biggest movie franchises of all time. such failures.

>Can you explain the distinction?
>It could be that for some at least MtF that is their legitimate identity. As you said, more research should he
I also believe there's legit trans people, I mean, the fact that they're out there is self-evident. Problem might be my own inability to visualize how dysphoria feels. In many cases, when I try to ask, I get horrendously vague answers, that seem unfocused. This might be a non-issue, and I simply can't understand dysphoria because I never felt it. I see a lot of trans women where I don't feel that sort of "primal urge" or "bodily imperative" to become and be recognized as a woman, and they live in this "trans middle ground". Again, this is all pretty hard to conceptualize.

>I'm interested in your idea. What rights should it include and which rights of biological males and females would it protect?
I'm not trans, I'm not anyone to talk about the rights of trans. But I think both biological men and biological females are denied a say in the debate of transexuality and inclusion, and that will always lead us to have an instinctive feeling that we're being invaded. I think that trans people need to be aware of the possibility that they're invading other spaces, and not demand understand and respect, but also give it. This happens in many cases, of course, but there's a lot of SJW activist that demand "acceptance now, or you're a bigot". No I'm not a bigot, but this was my space. You change the space by coming here. Let's discuss how we'll make this work, instead of demanding free access to what predated you. I think it's reasonable.

but I wanted to be a woman before I even had a chance to succeed or fail as a male. How does your chaser science explain that?

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the thing about any sort of intentional physical transition is that it requires a lot of effort and willpower and it can be a sort of vain pursuit, examples would be weightlifting for aesthetics or trying to fit a certain look of a certain scene, like modeling, drag racing, even cultivating a certain look around a fashion scene or what have you. these are only things extremely entitled western people even have energy to think about, and the entitled ones of that class of westerners at that. most people even in the west come to terms with their appearance and just go on with their lives or just straight up reject caring about it by becoming a fatass or ignoring everything related to appearance barring basic hygiene. "trans scene" and makeup and worrying about your appearance as a male actually comes from a very entitled place.
so maybe in some sense they're "failed" to other extremely baling white male westerners, if they act and behave exactly as you describe them, (which isn't actually accurate at all) but I think it's a really stupid and crass way to characterize it as a phenomenon. *in the west* dressing in drag is not seen as shameful, nor is being gay, or any other aspect of lgbt.

tl;dr transgenderism is a phenomena coming from a place of extreme privilege and vanity.

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>>8046838
>these are only things extremely entitled western people even have energy to think about
>tl;dr transgenderism is a phenomena coming from a place of extreme privilege
lol wut

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>>8046857
india, was formerly british controlled and westernized in a lot of ways, they're starting to emerge in wealth as a nation too. and as you can see by the skin tone, those are high caste indians. even op corroborates with me on it being a western phenomena.

>>8046877
Why do people with no grasp of history pretend like transgender people are a recent development. Oh yeah, I'm sure the citizens of Uruk were rolling in privilege and had entirely too much time on their hands, and navel gazed until they decided the grass was greener on the other side. Yup, totally makes sense.

>>8046923
the citizens of uruk were probably the most balling people for their time period.
are you actually knowledgeable regarding ancient sumer? please tell me what their trans scene was like.

>>8046940
Hey not them but i recommend a look into the roman galli

>>8046923
The examples of Third Gender people in Mesopotamia were by no means normal "citizens". It's even debatable if they were transgender.

>>8046984
SUMER AND ROME WERE THE BIGGEST CIVILIZATIONS OF THEIR TIME PERIOD YOU FUCKS MY POINT STANDS REEEE *hisses and throws anointed water at you*

>>8046940
The gala (priests of Inanna) in Sumer, and the galli (priests of Cybele) in Anatolia and later Rome, were often men who took on the appearance of women. Sacred prostitution is implied, but it's important for us to contextualize that those institutions were the outlet for gender non-conforming men. That was their place in society. The West today being radically individualist makes life quite difficult for transgender people because the only thing we have going for us is a generalized disdain that holds our diversity together. In a democratic society, you may live across the street from someone who is ideologically opposed to you in every way. The glue that holds that together is withdrawal, it's misanthropy. The law protects you, more or less. But there's no strong cultural platform integrating you into society. There never will be. You say we exist because we have it good. I say that's categorically wrong. This is the worst possible time and place for me to have suffered being dysphoric.

>>8045636
sick dude

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>>8045636
>(those of us who boink transgenders derive enormous pleasure from the realization that we're penetrating a weakling, a failure -- it adds an exciting dimension to our urge to dominate)
sounds like the booty warrior

>>8047009
What are you talking about? The Galli were, as per Roman accounts, absolutely ostracized and disdained. They were essentially seen as castrated prostitutes masquerading as priests, and were dedicated names such as pathicus ("faggot"), mollis ("softie"), or cinaedus (essentially meaning an effeminate man wanting to be penetrated), and were widely marginalized because of stigma concerning castration.

>>8047079
We're always marginalized. You can never escape that. It's about degrees. Did Augustus enshrine the goddess? Yes. Were there men infatuated with her? Yes. In fact, there were so many rings with the symbol of Attis, that you can find them now in auctions for a pittance. The point is that they had a place, and there were expectations for them. Today, what? We must spend outrageous amounts of money flaying ourselves in order to maybe live stealth, worrying every second of every day that someone will find out what we are? I'll take ridicule over "tolerance" any day of the week. Besides, Romans were notorious shitposters and accused each other of being fags constantly. It's just banter.

>>8047049
hahaha it really does

>Preach about male virtue and power
>Pretend to bring civilization wherever they go
>Condemn transgenderism
>Massive shitposters
>Secretly a bunch of faggots in denial

Romans: the /pol/ of old.

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>>8047166
>the /pol/ of old

>>8047177
>Northern Hiberni

>>8045663
>Most transgenders are desperate and lowly males with profound homosexuality.

Go to bed, Blanchard

>>8047219
Except Blanchard proved that was only true for 20% of transgenders.

>>8047225
You should still go to bed

>>8047166
Rome banned castration for their own citizens (not that it didn't happen) which meant they had to import qts to serve in the Matreum. It's exactly like /pol/. They're desperately worried about the propagation of their own people, the purity of their race, not being cucked, etc. But not above desiring girls (male). They bitch up and down about how fucked up it is, hurr durr mutilation, Jewish doctors, but we're not fools. We know we're one of the most popular categories of porn. They say one thing, and fap to another. Complete hypocrites. That's why it's so easy to bag a boyfriend. Their protestations are feigned, and they're easily broken.
>tfw /pol/ bf

>>8047232
That wasn't me though?

>>8047261
Shhhh... go to bed

>>8047273
But I'm bi?

>>8047235
>"They say one thing, and fap to another."
Words of wisdom.

>>8047298
How is that relevant? Do bis don't sleep or something?

>>8047310
>How is that relevant?
Stop erasing me!

>>8047331
Daddy Pence is gonna erase us all, better to go quietly

>>8047331
>Stop erasing me!

Stop forcing your shitty sex life on me

>>8046681
>I can take a hon in a dress, I'm not so cool with Twitter neckbeards who claim to be transbians for libfem brownie points.
The problem is until we understand what being trans is, in every form if it's a spectrum, we can't tell which of those people are really trans.

>then you have essentially surrendered to the idea that the work with trans people is done, they have "their rights".
What other rights do they need?

>MtFs are very broadly in my experience often very meek girls, very "pornified" women (answering to a male canon of beauty), or often just behave absolutely boyishly. Of course, #NotAllWomen.
Those all sound like natural consequences of being raised as a boy or for the first one of being shamed for being a girl mentally. Maybe they are each different forms or being trans or maybe some of them are just cis boys.

>I used to be SJW levels of permissive, but I have some guttural "morals" that keep getting in the way. Maybe /pol/ has just spoonfed me bigotry, so I'm trying to keep my cool in being open-minded but trying to word my observations somehow.
What views is your inner conflict on this issue between?

>the women they want to become are the women the average man is looking for in porn. There's tons of videos of "trans men" picking their first clothes, and for instance older men have a distinct tendency to just pick short, tight dresses and absurd cleavage.
I see the problem if they are just fetishist men, but what if they are trans?

Like you said, we need more research to see if that should be acceptable or not.

>>8045636
If transgenders are mostly ailed males then what about ftms? Are they just trying to move up to the guys position? That doesn't make much sense because they throw away their ability to reproduce too, which isn't what a failure would do.
Then, if transitioning is an escape, then why don't more males transition instead of suicide? That seems to go against the standard human drive to live when you have such an easy out.
Your hypothesis doesn't seem very structurally sound

>>8047573
>Are they just trying to move up to the guys position? That doesn't make much sense because they throw away their ability to reproduce too, which isn't what a failure would do.
Getting to be a guy is more than just reproduction.

Transition isn't a rational decision anyway or mtfs wouldn't do it unless they knew they were going to be hot and pass.

>Then, if transitioning is an escape, then why don't more males transition instead of suicide? That seems to go against the standard human drive to live when you have such an easy out.
It's an escape that's reached through a lot of rationalization. Rationalize your desperation differently and it won't even occur to you.

Remember that it's not a conscious decision. It's subconsciously deciding you would be better off as a girl.

>>8047573
ftms are just sick animals

>>8047646
most of what normies consider hot is easily attainable with realistic effort. most are just depressed messes though

>>8047573
OP gets off on the idea of abusing and fucking trans women specifically because he thinks they're "failed males." He's the quintessential pervy chaser stereotype. He wanted to try to intellectually dominate, shame, and degrade trans women, which is the entire reason he made the thread. Now that he essentially lost the debate, and things have gotten too technical and scientific for him to follow while fapping, the fetish is ruined for him and he's most likely moved on.

I assume this is the motivation for many threads like this, given that this board shares a site with places like /pol/ and /r9k/ where extremist sociopolitical views women and /lgbt/ overlap with outrageously autistical fetishism.

>>8046665
>>8046716
>I also believe there's legit trans people, I mean, the fact that they're out there is self-evident.
In terms of your comment about some trans people being transsexual first rather than women, research might show that some are trans as its own thing, while some are women.

What do you think makes some trans women want that middle ground rather than to be women?

>But I think both biological men and biological females are denied a say in the debate of transexuality and inclusion, and that will always lead us to have an instinctive feeling that we're being invaded.
It's less a debate, more a matter of research. For trans people who scientifically are women, of course they should get the rights of women.

It doesn't harm other women for trans women to be women too when the science says they are, just like cis women aren't harmed by other cis women being women.

>No I'm not a bigot, but this was my space. You change the space by coming here.
The same case could be made for other minorities too, like letting black women into women's spaces or letting them have women's scholarships.

The only difference is that we know for sure black women are women. For trans people we need research to draw the line better so that we don't have to go off self-ID.

>>8047731
>intellectually dominate, shame, and degrade trans women
ok but as an mtf i want this

>>8047715

>most of what normies consider hot is easily attainable with realistic effort

Like what? A WHR that is at most 0.70 and preferably under that and breasts that are at least Cs aren't easy to get. Unless you're including surgery in the list of possibilities. I don't.

>most are just depressed messes though

You're talking about MtFs here, right?

OP is partially right, mtfs are failed males who opt to become women to have a more successful life and avoid bullying for not being manly enough, but the reason they are failed is because they are quite a lot less masculine than average in temperament, they may not be feminine, but they are certainly are unmasculine.

>>8047771
Makeup, diet, exercise, education. Surgery is an option and my mother got breast enlargement but I've had no problem attracting people without it. Biggest problem I have is cis guys falling for me as a girl but don't want the dick. I've only known one ftm from college but they were a depressed mess too.

>>8047766
Then ask the guy for his email so you two could live happily ever after and he gives this shit a rest.

>>8045640
You know what the stupid fucking thing here is though?

THE BULLIES WANT TO GET FUCKED AND DOMINATED BY THE TRANNIES, AND THE TRANNIES DON'T WANT TO FUCK THEM.

Passing trannies are alpha as fuck, and get can get paid thousands of dollars to ass fuck the most powerful men in the world while hons get bullied even worse than before.

Over all they're just submissive because they they're mentally disabled. If trannies were mentally stable, rational decision makers they'd be making more money than doctors fucking muscle men in the ass.

Take your shitty sociology degree back to the gloryhole rent boy, psychologists are talking.

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>>8048050
>THE BULLIES WANT TO GET FUCKED AND DOMINATED BY THE TRANNIES, AND THE TRANNIES DON'T WANT TO FUCK THEM.
It's pretty hilarious, really.

>>8045636
>>8045640
Isn't it easier being a failed male in the West nowadays than in the 20th century? Masculinity is more subtle and varied than it used to be. There is alot of lgbt acceptance and anti bullying stuff in schools and workplaces these days.

Seems like your describing HSTSs.
I'm an AGP and part of me wants to be sexually submissive with men and be a woman socially. But I have a very masculine face and body and i'm not truly attracted to men like I am women. I'm still kinda a failed male, just not failed enough to make transition worthwhile.

You seem to view HSTSs as far beneath a ciswoman and thats messed up. I wouldn't feel comfortable being penetrated by a man who views me as far beneath him.

>>8048673
>Isn't it easier being a failed male in the West nowadays than in the 20th century?
Men still have significantly more social expectations than women, even if gay or bi.

>>8048720
True, although i've seen it claimed by radfems that women get a lot of shit from people if they aren't feminine enough.

>>8049475
Doubtless they can get some shit in certain social circles but it's better than what guys get, let alone guys who act feminine.

>>8045636
you know it's kind of rude and impolite to use this person's picture because she actually committed suicide irl over gender dysphoria

delete this picture!

>>8049710
moot stopped deletion working after about 10 minutes.

>>8048673
Nobody actually cares about failed (read: not masculine) males, te choice is between living in the bottom of the social order or becoming a woman to improve your social status.

When was the last time anybody tried to help not masculine males? A long time ago. When was he last time anybody tried to help MtFs? Just today, and every day.