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I never quite understood this.
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You are currently reading a thread in /lgbt/ - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender

Thread replies: 27
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I never quite understood this.

So gender is a social construct, and doing things "like a man" or "like a girl" are social constructs. Anyone can do anything and that has nothing to do with their genders. I can see that.

Why would a transgender change anything about their life besides their body, then? We all know they generally change a lot more, from their clothes to their hairstyle to wearing or not make-up, etc etc etc.

Are we just in denial that there are "girly" and "manly" things?
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>>5682519
Neurology , endo, they matter a whole lot more than buzzwords
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A fetish. That is all.
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>>5682519
Transgenders are just weird in the head.
Transsexuals typically just change their body and then go with whatever that enables them. If you got a female appearance, you can rock girl clothes, it's like unlocking that privilege. So why not do it for a change.
Personality-wise you can blame the estrogen.
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>>5682524
This.

But the political version of science that comforts average people only functions through buzzwords, shorthand and basic platonic ideals like "natural manliness", or "biological womanhood", or other vague, affirming, sciencey-sounding language with no real substance behind it. That's what people get mad about when it comes to trans people. So just for trans people to be themselves, and experience and treat their gender dysphoria, they unearth a deluge of shallow social compromises, comforting euphemisms, and hollow rationalizations people have been convincing generation after generation to believe about sex and gender for thousands of years because it's really, really, really, really, really hard to think otherwise after all of that programming.
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To give others the social cues to treat them as if their body is how they want it be.
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>>5682519
Everything that is man made makes gender look like a social construct
there is a boys and girls aisle in a lot of stores
there are women's and men's clothes in Retail stores
You are right in a sense, but what drives you to be you is what makes you "girly" or "manly"not society
In reality, there is no gender just labels
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>>5682519
It's not a social construct that's why.
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>>5682598
Yes but if gender is just a social construct with no meaning, then why does it matter if a guy just dresses as a woman? Why does he have to chop at his genitals and insist on being called a different pronoun if gender doesn't exist in the first place? Can't you just wear a dress and do 'girly' things?
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Because people are constantly judging them. Their identities are a matter of politics and are constantly scrutinized and challenged. Plus they get the brunt of society's sexism because they experience a combination of both misogyny and misandry, and they have no social safety net like feminists or MRAs do. All that in combination with the dysphoria messes with their sense of identity and fosters all sorts of neuroses.
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>>5682651
No no, that's too reasonable and human. We need something with more pizazz, more media flavor, more easy to demonize. How about chemtrails make them do it? Maybe they're all lizard people? Maybe they're the CHILDREN of lizard people? More study is needed.
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Be... be like a boy... dance like a girl

Be! Be like a girl.. dance like a goy...

I... no longer want to be a man

I want to be a horse

I want to have a tail

Blood

BLOOD
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>>5682640
fetish
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>>5682670
You know, just because your mind is starting to fray from too much /pol/ conspiracy nonsense, it doesn't mean everyone else's is too. It's not nice to project.
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>gender is a social construct

I hope this isn't starting to be accepted as truth around here. SJWs pls leave
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>>5682519
>so gender is a social construct
i stopped reading there
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>>5682519
Femininity and masculinity definitely exist. What they mean kind of vary depending on the person, and not all women enjoy being mostly feminine, and not all men enjoy being mostly masculine. You can be feminine and masculine at the same time, or neither. But they definitely exist, even if the sexes aren't biologically compelled to behave in accordance to their gender.

The sexes generally prefer to behave differently, though. Women tend to enjoy expressing themselves through femininity, and men tend to enjoy expressing themselves with masculinity. Most people express a bit of both, and there is a lot of individual variation, but it's just a fact that the sexes prefer to express themselves differently on average.

And heterosexuality is probably a large part of why that average exists. Straight men tend to be attracted to femininity as well as femaleness. Straight women tend to be attracted to masculinity as well as maleness. Straight men and women look for different things in a partner. Men usually enjoy the softness, empathy, and beauty of women, and they enjoy it when women act in a way that exaggerates these traits. So, straight women tend to comply because many find that they enjoy feeling desirable and attractive.

This might be a part of why gay men are more likely to be feminine, and why gay women are more likely to be masculine. They don't feel compelled to behave in a way that makes them feel desirable to the opposite sex, so being straight-acting is less likely to make them feel attractive.

As for trans women, you generally find that it's the straight ones that are more feminine. Potentially a third of trans women are attracted to women, and another third may be bi, and there's also a significant number of trans women who are pretty masculine - as expected based on that. Sexuality is one significant part of the equation of gender expression.
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>>5682679
Anyone that ever says someone is projecting already lost.
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>>5682640
The phenomenon of gender dysphoria sometimes extends past shallow social constructs and into how a trans person's brain physically developed to handle the rest of their body. This makes people uncomfortable because of politics. Far right wingers typically hate trans people due to traditionalism and the threat of "hedonism" or "degeneracy" so any form of legitimizing their experiences (even through science) is verboten. Far left people hate them because their behavior is often solidly gendered, and scientific studies on them provide evidence against the tabula rasa theory of sexual brain development, where male brains are supposedly identical to female brains.

The reason why the conversation typically never gets this far in real life, however, is because everyone who isn't trans has their own preconceptions about what it means to be trans. They're more willing to ask loaded questions and have their assumptions validated than learn about trans people.
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>>5682738
No one cares what you think.
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>>5682662
ancient aliens and reptilian bio hackers made me trans
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>>5682519
GENDER ROLES, FUCKING ILLITERATE
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>>5682731

Another element to gender expression is a bit more macro. The vast majority of people are heterosexual, and heterosexual behaviour forms our norms for gender expression. People, who are creatures that tend to reject differences, tend to look down on behaviour that strays from these norms. This may be the essence of the "social construct" that people want to oppose: The idea that people that fall outside the norms should still comply with them for social acceptance. And I agree. Society should accept differences without shaming or excluding people - it's healthy and productive to be inclusive.

Society may accept you, but societal acceptance is more 'passive' and it does not necessarily make you feel desirable - but it may make you feel undesirable if you don't fit in. So, there are many people who align themselves with gender expression norms for acceptance begrudgingly because they don't otherwise want to follow the norms outside of macro acceptance, which feels unfulfilling.

While the desire to transition overrides the need to be accepted, many trans people may tend to put more effort into complying with gender expression norms (and potentially others) in order to compensate for deviating from other norms.
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>>5682731
>>5682777

In conclusion, gender expression norms are created and followed partially by a desire to be heterosexually desirable at the micro level, and they exist at the macro level because heterosexuals form the vast majority of people.

Trans women comply with gender norms in order to be heterosexually desirable, but also to be socially acceptable, and trans women may be stricter about conforming to norms in order to compensate for their deviation from other norms.

This idea is definitely not a complete conjecture on gender expression norms due to the complexities of its existence in homosexual people and the general fluidity and/or variance of sexuality in general, but it provides a general and basic idea that you can expand on.


Here's your tl;dr:

Trans people like feeling desirable and accepted by most people, and most people happen to be either straight or at least conform to straight norms.
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>>5682777
This. As long as you're a good little trans and follow the unwritten rules of the gender with which you identify to the letter, people are much more accepting of you... even if they don't follow those rules themselves. People don't like thinking, so the less you give them to think about when they meet you, the easier it is for them to like or at least tolerate you.
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>>5682519
there are 2 different terms people need to know
sex, and gender.
Sex is biologically male, or female, or intersex.

Sex is determined by genetics. and your genitalia at birth.

Gender is a societal construct that arises from the differences between men and women. These differences consist mainly of, gender roles, physical presentation, and how we are perceived by others.

Gender roles still exists today, but they are a bit desaturated from what they once were.
Physical presentation plays a big part in gender. There is a well defined lined between what looks girly and what looks manly. this comes to your bodys appearance/structure...how you look and the clothes you wear.
and lastly perception is directly related to presentation because it is an interaction. We look at people and we asses them as either male or female and we address them according to how we individually see them.

in laymans terms, gender essentially boils down to girly things, and manly things... and thats ok because men and women are different...and thats ok.

although i personally hate being trans, but i do appreciate being able to see both sides the fence on how gender is experienced.
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>>5682580
This is it people. It's literally this simple.
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