Some women just don't feel attracted to women who used to be male-bodied even if they are otherwise ideal. I don't think that's transphobic on its own, if the person can't help their attraction. If the reaction is more cognitive, like, "they're a man" then I'd be more willing to call that transphobic.
But at the same time, trans people are pretty diverse. Some mtfs really are a lot like men. Some mtfs probably are men. Not everybody who transitions is a textbook transsexual, you know?
>>5663880 In that case I guess I could agree it would be kind of bitchy to leave. >>5663903 Even if you don't have to touch it some people just don't like dick. I don't think she should be an asshole about it but I do think that if they didn't tell her beforehand she can refuse. Same with a gay man and a ftm. Even if he doesn't have to touch the pussy, just the fact that they have one could ruin the whole attraction.
I am only interested in someone with a vagina. I am physically attracted to both males and females but I am only sexually aroused by pussy. I would never want to make someone feel bad for rejecting them but I just wouldn't be able to go through with it if they had a dick. How do you reject someone in this situation without making them feel like shit?
>>5663859 If they are only rejecting them because they were assigned male at birth, and would otherwise be totally attracted and into them, I would say yes, that is transphobic.
Of course there is a myriad of other reasons why a cis lesbian may not be into an mtf, including, but not limited to having a penis, not being passable, etc. In those cases it's a little more complex and it would be extremely unfair to call them transphobic for rejecting them.
I like vaginas, not paid-for wounds constructed from male genitalia. Call it transphobia if you want, it just further proves the ultimate delusion and selfishness of a typical mtf which is such a turnoff.
>>5664153 >>5664249 >both of you have smelled/licked/touched/viewed a trans vagoo so you're clearly professionals
Truth is, if done right, they smell, taste, look, and feel like cis vagoo. Sometimes they do everything but look 100% the same. However, if you're not a shallow cunt concerned with how your sexual partner's genitals are slightly abnormal visually in those cases, it wouldnt be an issue. Go ask /tlg/
>>5664183 Transphobia can still apply, for example if they're post op and you've already had sex with them, but later find out they're trans and suddenly don't want anything to do with them. In that case it's clear you're perfectly fine with their body, but you're rejecting them on the sole basis of being trans.
>>5663859 I don't care if you think I'm trans phobic or shallow for only liking cis chicks with cute pussies. No means no, get over it and date someone who likes you warts and all. Transbians need to not act like they're entitled to dating cis chicks who don't want them.
And most of you transbian turn bi or straight in the future anyways due to your hormones so there's even less of a reason to date you guys.
>>5664763 >cause I've heard they don't get wet on their own and that self lubricating vagina is kind of my shit? Depends on the surgeon. Neovags can very well lubricate, its just not always guaranteed.
>>5663859 >transphobia >noun >intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.
>Is it transphobic for lesbians to reject transwomen lesbians because they were assigned male at birth? No, the act of rejecting someone for sex for whatever reason is not transphobic. Rejecting a tranny might be something that a tranphobic person does but you would have to look outside of who they choose as a sexual partner to and into their normal day to day life to determine if they are actually transphobic. I'm sure only a very few amount of ppl have an intense dislike/ irrational fear of trannies.
>>5664758 So is "I'm perfectly fine with every aspect of your body but I refuse to consider dating you for the sole reason you were assigned male at birth, despite it having nothing to do with the physical reality of what you are now." It's honestly in the same category as guys who refuse to have sex with girls simply because they're not virgins.
>>5664763 >Wait cis lesbo here, what if I just don't wanna fuck with post op cause I've heard they don't get wet on their own and that self lubricating vagina is kind of my shit? You should probably try to get better information before you decide to not even consider dating a trans woman.
Like damn I thought my bio experience was better than most and I know guys have a similar gland but it doesn't put out the same level of fluids and it's really just to ease sperm and junk.
>>5664833 I mean that's also part of why I don't wanna date trans is cause I can't be fucked to deal with ya'lls mental shit but I just didn't wanna be a dick about it I guess. Seems kind of hypocritical to not wanna date someone with the same issues you got but you want others to date you with your issues.
>>5664855 hey I'm figuring this from what I've seen other trans chicks bitch about here and in other articles on trans shit plus some youtube shit
Plus every surgery vagina I've seen looks weird as hell but I've seen that brought up here with the response "yeah well maybe my new vagina is perfect!"
Oh and one more I never dated a girl with plastic surgery and don't intend to start. I guess I don't really care who does what with their bodies but on a personal level I wouldn't date someone that insecure that they put that much money into changing so much about themselves like that. Plus everything plastic surgery seems like it ages badly.
I'm just figuring I've thought about this since being on 4chan /lgbt/ since it comes up all the fucking time and after some thought nah. And it is kind of cause you're trans since a lot of the nature of being trans has a lot of attributes in a woman I don't want. Like even if I met a cis woman if she had a fucked up vagina I'd leave cause I've got physical needs, maybe that's shallow but whatever. I like small petite girls and that's hardly the average trans chick. I've dated girls horribly insecure in their bodies and it's fucking horrible for me so nah never again and that dysphoria shit seems like an extreme case of it. And I wanna do the whole I have one baby you have the other thing long term and ya'll can't.
But like idgaf if ya'll date some other chick or call yourselves whatever or being friends.
>>5664912 >>5664897 No, it's more like asking if it's racist for white straight men to reject black women. Trans women are women, gay men are not.
>>5664928 If the sole reason attraction is lost is because you find out they're trans (and you've already had sex with them so you know you're perfectly fine with their anatomy) then it is transphobic.
I'm not saying that's in all cases. If after finding out about their gender at birth, it illicites a strong enough reaction to be repulsed, that's transphobic. People can be weird out or whatever. There are a thousand different reasons for them to turn them down, but if they're disgusted by them being Trans only then is it transphobic.
There are actually studies about sexual attraction a disgust.
>>5663859 Im a straight mtf and why wouldn't you want me to be your gf? I mean as long as I was feminine enough. Ive fucked girls. I have a strap on with us 24/7. I probably work harder than a normal girl to be cute. I can easily pull of straight acting if need be. I won't whine like a bitch if you want to hit me.
>>5664951 Hey wait hate to throw around the word rape but what do you think of the whole rape-by-deception?
For example there's cases where a woman pretended to be a man to have sex with another woman and after 10 instances of sex it was all concluded rape, or a case in the US where a woman consented to sex with a man she believed to be her boyfriend but found out otherwise, or a case in Israel where a man was convicted of rape because he lied about being jewish to have sex with another woman.
If someone doesn't wanna have sex with a trans person for whatever reasons and you lie and fuck them anyway aren't you technically taking their informed consent away? At the very least it's morally questionable.
Yeah why is it that so many mtfs response to "well I don't really wanna fuck cause you're trans" is to go "Oh yeah!? I'll just lie to you and trick you into fucking me! that'll show you!" instead of "oh ok that sucks guess I'll just move on to someone that will fuck me". Even when annoying gay dudes chase straight dudes it isn't about tricking them into sucking dick or lying it's just trying to convince them they might like dick.
I always make a point of disclosing that I'm trans whenever I connect with a girl that I like. Whether or not she's strictly a lesbian is never really something I think about. If they don't seem enthralled then I just drop the topic instead of questioning their rationale.
>>5664964 I'd say it falls under the definition of transphobia. In the situation I described the only reason attraction is lost is because this person is grossed out by this person being trans - and it's just this notion of being trans, in all physical respects the trans person is indistinguishable from a cis person. It's only the fact that they "used to be the different gender" that causes attraction to be lost, not anything about how they are now.
>>5664977 I would say that since consent cannot be given in advance (i.e. consenting to having sex with someone last week does NOT mean you automatically consent to having sex with them today), impersonation cannot really cause rape - if person B impersonates person A, they still aren't covered by the consent you gave to have sex with person A at some point in the past, since even if they were the REAL person A you would need to provide consent again anyway. And yes, by impersonation they could be circumventing INFORMED consent, but the problem there is that unless it's clearly defined how much information you need to give informed consent, the law is too easily abused. Like if you're dating and having sex with someone for several months under the impression they're a good person, and after some time they start abusing you, could you then turn around and say that all previous times you had sex with them were rape by deception because they were only "pretending" to not be abusive? As for cases where the person pretends to be a specific other person, or makes false promises (claims to be a millionaire who offers to give you some of their wealth if you have sex with them), I think that would already be covered under other laws, I don't think it would necessarily require a new category of rape.
As for trans people, I think if they are NOT physically indistinguishable from a cis person of their gender, they should disclose before sex - but even if they don't you'll know as soon as clothes come off, and it won't really be rape unless you withdraw consent and they continue trying to have sex with you (or you don't announce withdrawing consent because you fear it would just cause you greater harm - though the circumstances would have to be such that it is reasonable for you to think that).
>>5665049 >>5664977 (continued) If they ARE physically indistinguishable from a cis person of their gender, I would say that not disclosing wouldn't constitute rape by deception. I know this sounds kind of like "what you don't know can't hurt you", but I think if someone is completely passable even without clothes on, and their genitals work like those of a cis person, then them being trans would be a fairly minor detail as far as sex is concerned. If they actually claim to be cis, then that would obviously be lying, and depending on circumstances could be illegal. But if they're perceived as a woman and can function sexually as such, being trans would seem to be a minor background detail, of the same weight as what country one was born in.
To you maybe. Kind of like how being jewish or not seems like a minor detail but lying about it got that dude convicted of rape.
For example what if it's a religious reason that a man can't fuck a trans. You lie cause you got that neo vagina and can, fuck him, and when the truth is revealed his entire family and life is ruined. Or in the case where that girl pretended to be a guy to fuck a girl. What if she were really an ftm? what if she truly looked male with hormones and everything but she lied about all that to be with that girl? That girl seemed really hurt in the end, even said she'd have preferred to be raped by a man than deceived in such a way.
If you know a lot of people aren't comfy with fucking trans and you go out and actively deceive them into fucking you anyway well that's pretty horrible. I don't know if rape, depends on the courts, but it's a morally bad thing to do. Def shouldn't be your first thoughts to do at rejection.
Its not transphobic to not like transgirls. Im not obligated tk relationships or sex from anyone. A persons attractions is their own business and you can't admonish someone for something that just doesnt do it for them.
There is no scenario where it's transphobic to not be interested in someone. Full stop.
>>5665099 >To you maybe. Kind of like how being jewish or not seems like a minor detail but lying about it got that dude convicted of rape. Yeah and I'm saying in my opinion, it shouldn't have counted as rape. Although, as I mentioned before, there's a huge difference between neglecting to disclose and actually telling a lie. If they didn't claim to be Jewish and were just assumed to be, I wouldn't say they were in the wrong. If they actively lied, then they would be guilty of something, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's rape.
>For example what if it's a religious reason that a man can't fuck a trans Suppose there was a prevalent religion that said it was a sin to fuck a woman who has had sex with another man. If a man of this religion dated a woman, made no mention of this religious rule, and never asked the woman if she had ever had sex with another man (and she never outright claimed to be a virgin) would the woman be guilty of rape by deception?
I think the real issue is that when a lesbian isn't interested in trans women romantically, it makes trans women deal with an unfortunate reality. The fact is, a lot of people who support trans rights still don't see trans women as real women. Somebody can support equal rights laws and have nothing but love for trans people in their hearts, but still think that trans women aren't women in the same way that cis women are. So when you realize a lot of your alies are only your allies out of political correctness, or politeness, or "it ain't hurting me, let the trans women use whatver bathroom they want" but don't actually think you're a real woman, that's pretty upsetting.
>>5665123 >Suppose there was a prevalent religion that said it was a sin to fuck a woman who has had sex with another man. If a man of this religion dated a woman, made no mention of this religious rule, and never asked the woman if she had ever had sex with another man (and she never outright claimed to be a virgin) would the woman be guilty of rape by deception?
historically and even presently yeah a lot of people consider that some rape and the woman is punished for lying.
You can argue the values of being a virgin and yadda yadda but yeah it's considered deceit.
>>5665040 Not really. Finding out someone is mentally defective and no longer wanting to be with them is not transphobic. Most ppl also don't like being deceived and who you are today is always effected by who you were in the past. There is no "becoming a completely different person." You can change things OC, but who you are today is always informed by who you were in the past.
>>5665149 >Most ppl also don't like being deceived and who you are today is always effected by who you were in the past. Yes, but where do you draw the line? Who decides what is or isn't enough information to give informed consent?
>>5665161 Sex and gender are some pretty important facts to give out. Like how you should let a person know if you have an std.
Also we're still talking about a person that you know is against fucking trans. Just because I saw it brought up in this thread that they know people are against fucking trans and they'll just deceive their way into fucking anyway.
>>5665147 Eh. I think the punishments are too harsh for how they'll treat a non-virgin girl but I don't think it's crazy that there's some punishment because a girl lied her way into fucking over something a guy finds important. Even if there were no legal recourse it'd still seem pretty fucked up. Like if a girl comes to me all "I don't wanna fuck you cause I only fuck asians" it'd be pretty fucked up if I just went out of my way to get plastic surgery to look asian just to fuck her and lie about my self.
>>5665195 >Sex and gender are some pretty important facts to give out. Like how you should let a person know if you have an std. A STD I understand, you can get a disease if they don't disclose. You don't get a disease from unknowingly fucking a trans person (yes, trans women have a higher STD rate - but that is already covered under my above point). And in this situation I'm talking about a trans woman whose gender AND sex are both for all intents purposes female.
>>5665201 Again, in this situation, the girl didn't lie, she did not know it was a sin for the guy to fuck non-virgins, and the guy never made that clear. She had no way of knowing in this instance. And in any case, I think using religion as a justification for calling it rape by deception is coming awfully close to violating separation of church and state, since it's basically using the secular court system to enforce religious laws.
>>5665213 I would go with the mental side of things and the not STD side. Just ask yourself at what point in time would you want to know that your potential or actual partner had schizophrenia, suffered with severe bi-polar issues, used to be an alcoholic, used to be a heroin or meth addict, used to be a prostitute, used to make porn movies, etc. Not saying that being trans is the same as those things but they are on the same level as far as "bomb being dropped" on a partner.
>>5665276 >But that's not really equivalent I thought we were talking about someone that doesn't wanna fuck trans, it's known in general they don't, and a trans goes out and fucks them through deceit. I was talking more in general, rather than someone specifically known to not be interested in dating trans people.
>>5665295 >I mean your sex can never be female. Not in that legit uterus/vagina definition of female sex. Yes but I mean in more of a practical, functional sense.
>Some people fuck for procreation reasons only. A lot of the world actually. You not being biologically female is kind of important to that. Or could be. Should let them know. Sure, but in that situation they're not really any different than any other infertile woman. If a man makes no specific mention of wanting to reproduce, and an infertile cis women has sex with them without disclosing, would that be rape by deception?
>>5665328 If he makes no mention then nah but if he does than yeah.
That's my basic thing. If a guy is like "hey don't wanna fuck trans" and you're like "OH YEAH WELL I PASS PERFECT SO YOU'RE GONNA FUCK ME NOW BECAUSE I'MMA JUST LIE" than that's fucked up. Just respect his decision. Move on
Also in any het relationships birth control and fertility come up. In homo relationships it's assumed. Women have issues finding a partner that will date them longterm while infertile. Some find guys that prefer them infertile. The opposite thing I'm thinking of is yeah I'd consider it either rape by deception or just really really fucked up is if a woman told a guy she was really infertile and that he didn't need a condom and there'd be no birth control. That's forcing him to risk shit he doesn't wanna and wouldn't do if he were aware of all the information. Or say if there were a wife and her husband wanted children but she was infertile and just wanted to keep him fucking her so she lies about it, sometimes him only wanting to fuck in hopes of a child but it's pretty rapey cause she's just using him with no intent of telling him the truth, assuming she knew of her infertility of course along with his intent to reproduce. Or say you as a trans fuck a trans lesbians but somehow sperm gets in her and she's unaware of it cause you never let her know, that's fucked up especially if she gets pregnant. Or a gay ftm not disclosing the trans part and ending up pregnant from some sperm getting in the vagina on accident. Fertility and sex do happen to matter often.
If you know or you think someone is against fucking you cause you're trans, let them know what's up instead of just lying about it is all. It's fucked up to do otherwise. People get hurt by being deceived, especially sexually. You might think it's a stupid thing or transphobic thing to be upset over but it's still someone being hurt still.
>>5665384 >The opposite thing I'm thinking of is yeah I'd consider it either rape by deception or just really really fucked up is if a woman told a guy she was really infertile and that he didn't need a condom and there'd be no birth control. That's forcing him to risk shit he doesn't wanna and wouldn't do if he were aware of all the information. Yeah that would definitely be an issue, maybe not necessarily "rape by deception" but it's definitely putting the man at risk of suffering consequences he didn't agree to.
As a straight MtF wtf is wrong with transbians that they consider getting with cisbians some kind of prize? Just find a guy, ride his dick and call it a day. There's no such thing as a lesbian trans woman, only bisexuals in denial.
>>5665513 The issue is that people will literally call us transbians whenever we mention the cis women we choose to date or bang. I don't outright define my own sexuality for people here because my current love interest doesn't effectively determine my sexual preference, but twits like you have a day of policing other people's sexualities for some reason. Is that reason just internalized transphobia or is it also heterosexism? Who knows, who cares. You should stop mislabeling people though.
>>5665589 I mean it's just weird. No matter what our intentions, transwomen will be perceived as predators. Better to go with the option everyone expects imo.
Also judging by how many "transbians" I've known date other transbians, I don't think they're as attracted to women as they say they are. I think a large number of them are just afraid of men because they were weak males and didn't have an outlet to express their homoerotic feelings, so they default to women or transwomen (i.e. males that aren't threatening to them). Plus, what could a woman offer in terms of security that a man couldn't do better? I don't see a reason for transwomen to date women unless they just really have a vagina fetish.
>>5664371 >shallow cunt "everyone who won't fuck me is a muhsoggynistic shitstain". You're sounding a lot like those fat women who believe hot guys should want to fuck them, and rejecting them is rape/racist
>>5664973 Because I don't want a girl who tries to super hard to be cute. I prefer chapstick girls anyways who have interests outside of make up, dresses, and girly shit. The problem is that mtfs are normally overly feminine to compensate and that isn't something that appeals to me.
>>5664847 >despite it having nothing to do with the physical reality of what you are now.
Except you still have secondary sex characteristics that identify you as male. I have never seen a mtf that successfully hid these characteristics, which are the primary cues the brain responds to when determining if someone is sexually attractive. If your shoulders are to wide, if your ass aint phat, if your face is even slightly masculine, most male brains shut you out as a potential romantic interest.
>>5665413 Based on what exactly? I mean sure, she doesn't have 100.00% the same experiences as a cis woman, but the same is true between two cis women, even twins.
>>5665513 >Just find a guy, ride his dick and call it a day. There's no such thing as a lesbian trans woman, only bisexuals in denial. gr8 b8 m8
>>5665690 Some people just prefer femininity, something both cis and trans women tend to express, is that so hard to understand? The reason transbians end up dating each other rather than cis women may not mean they find cis women less attractive, it likely has to do with the perceived transphobia of the lesbian community - a lot of lesbian communities are full of gendercrits and people who say a woman who dates a mtf isn't a "real" lesbian.
>>5665775 They didn't say everyone who doesn't want to fuck them is anything. They merely said that there isn't really any rational reason to reject them based on being trans alone if someone is otherwise attracted to them.
>>5666080 You might think it's a pretty big thing, not everyone does. If it that important, you should ask, and if they lie, then yeah they're in the wrong. But you can't accuse someone of lying for merely neglecting to inform you of something.
>>5666960 One of the main effects of HRT is changing secondary sex characteristics. And you probably HAVE seen a mtf that successfully hid those characteristics, just they did it so well you never knew they were trans. And in any case, if there's an actual body feature you're not attracted to, then it's not transphobic. It's only transphobia if you're otherwise completely attracted to their body but lose attraction to them for no reason other than them being AMAB.
I'm bi female and I have no interest in mtf. There is nothing wrong or phobic about this. If one managed to fool me (seriously doubt this could happen) and when s/he told me I would reject them and there is nothing wrong or phobic about that. I tolerate them I just wouldn't want to date one. The thing I don't get about this debate is that even if they did manage to fool someone are they supposed to just never have sex? Eventually you're either going to see a penis or a frankengina.
>>5667239 >One of the main effects of HRT is changing secondary sex characteristics HRT changers fat distribution and muscle development. It does nothing for bone structure post puberty, I guess I have seen a couple who passed well, but they all transitioned before puberty.
>>5667506 It's just my personal preference, that's all. I believe you have the right to be choosey when it comes to your partner. >>5667285 How though? You wouldn't say a man who does not want to be with a man is homophobic, would you? How is it any different for a lesbian Who does not want to date a trans?
>>5663859 I think it's perfectly fine to romantically reject anyone for any reason. However, if you're an asshole to trans women as you reject them, like you call them "men" or imply they're not women in some way, yeah that's transphobia. If you found some 10/10 gorgeous post-op, dickless trans woman and you dropped her solely because she's trans, yeah that too indicates prejudice but it's not like anyone is forcing anyone to date anyone.
The whole "pressured to date trans women" thing isn't an actual crisis, in the same way that trans women committing bathroom rape isn't a crisis, or even a reality. It's just another excuse to take sides and join the chorus of straight cis people whining about trans women now that being gay is "normal" in the West and it's trendy to be an asshole to the new targets of fearful traditionalists.
It must feel nice to suddenly not be an oppressed minority anymore.
>>5668737 Because they're both legally and medically defined as women at an international level. If you want to contest that, do a study that gets different results than the scientific majority and write a paper on it.
Until then, you really need to stop complaining because you come across as a complete idiot, like a climate change denier or something.
>I ain't no scientist, but my magical lesbian sixth sense says they ain't what they say they is!
>>5668808 There is no such thing as being "biologically male." People are assigned male and female because they're ancient categories defined before humans had access to advanced medical and analytical techniques. XX and XY are labeled "female" and "male" as a shorthand because they are most commonly correlated with the physical development that defines our social norms of who is labeled "male" and "female." When you look at someone and call them a "man" or a "male" you're not looking into their DNA, you're not karotyping them, you're not analyzing their neurological development, you're addressing them according to snap decision made from how they look to you in line with the social mandates you were taught to follow since birth. So-called "sex chromosomes" do not define the entirety of a person's physical development, or even their sexual development, nor are they an indication of some kind of "natural" sexual binary (considering there are countless chromosomal variations and almost no one knows what their chromosomes really are since they're not tested at birth).
Please google some of this, read some scientific papers, learn something about your own goddamn body for once.
>>5668808 That really doesn't have anything to do with being a woman though (except that statistically, most women are biologically female). Sex and gender are two separate categories. A biologically male woman isn't the same thing as a biologically female woman, but they're both women.
>>5663859 >Is it transphobic for lesbians to reject transwomen lesbians because they were assigned male at birth? Is it misandrist for lesbians to reject cis male straights because they were assigned male at birth?
>>5669606 Gynephilic, with androphilic being the term for someone attracted to biological males. But I've never heard of *anyone* who only likes cis women and trans men, or only likes cis men and trans women. Generally, people are attracted to gender identity alone (i.e. liking all men or all women, regardless of genitalia), or gender identity and biological sex (i.e. liking only cis men or cis women, or more rarely, liking only trans men or trans women), I don't know any instances of people being attracted to biological sex alone.
>>5670777 As a cis woman, I can almost always see male characteristics in a MtF's face that are off-putting. I'm willing to bet that these "lesbians" saw enough feminine markers in the FtMs to be willing to try.
>>5667239 >Some mtfs do though. Mannpussy<Femmepussy MtF never perfume their pussy like women do, their sweat isn't as delicious tasting (I'm assuming), and you can't finger their ovaries since they haven't any.
>>5670725 I only like cis women and transmen, but I've never met anyone who shared my sexuality. I'm physically attracted to both femininity and masculinity but I only like individuals who were born female.
>>5664847 >It's honestly in the same category as guys who refuse to have sex with girls simply because they're not virgins. And what's wrong with that? I honestly do not see an issue with people having whatever the fuck kind of preference they want when it comes to sex. Maybe he was saving himself for someone special and he doesn't think a non-virgin is special.
>>5676370 >I feel like a different gender >I have to take chemicals and surgery to change my appearance or I will kill myself >if you're not sexually attracted to me, you're a bigot and you don't make any sense
>>5676415 >make baseless claim >can't back it up >"hurrdurr y r u replying to me" Tell me, fun anon, which part of "suicidal trannies take drugs and surgery to attempt to modify their sex" do you not agree with?
>>5676449 I didn't say it does, that's more projecting. Do you you actually think that I'm saying these things some place? Hidden posts between posts? Is there some sort of psych-med you should be taking?
>wide hips don't go away Sure, same with mtf trannies, once those bone structures are set they don't change. >baby faces don't go away Not so much, T is stronger than E and masculinization of facial bones can be guided by T, it just doesn't go the other way, this is why you see a lot of "baby faces" when young men are still early in puberty because they haven't been effected by T enough yet.
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