>>5643699 It's key principles are good but their activists, radicals especially, despise anyone different.
They vilify minorities, say it's wrong to be effeminate, talk about lgbt being pedophile monsters out to rape people and worked with the religious right to smear lgbt as predators for the Houston referendum.
Feminism has a lot of things in common with Christianity, both good and bad. Extreme dogma only makes you prone to seeing anyone who isn't exactly like you as a monster and using harmless vulnerable minorities as scapegoats.
That turns a noble religion into something dedicated to eliminating anyone different. I can't accept the way they've used the weak as targets to rally hate.
I have a feminist friend and two other liberally friends that would agree with feminism, but don't really bring it up. I also have two others that don't care for it. I love them all equally.
Personally, I don't really care about feminism one way or the other. When my feminist friend talks about/uses feminist terms, I get what she's saying because I've been around the liberal parts of the net to pick up on these things. I don't particularly join in with her, but my social chameleon-ness has me subtly support/go apong with whatever she's saying.
In the end, whether any of them support feminism or not doesn't really change how I view them. I had a short lived misogynist phase when I got really into 4chan ecause I'm very impressionable, but that died out a while ago.
I don't really know what else to say. It doesn't really affect me, as a gay man, and honestly I think the misogynist gays here need to just stop. If you're gonna hold a grudge against/hate someone, do it on a personal level, not an ideological one. When I left Islam a long time ago, I really hated Muslims for a while, then I made a really awesome Muslim friend.
I don't know, bottom line is you know what the general consensus on feminism is gonna be on any board on 4chan of all places. Just because we're homos, it isn't any different.
Nice in theory, but mainstream feminism is by Western upper-middle class white women and as a result exclusively for Western upper-middle class white women, who frankly are the last people in need of help.
I'm a feminist, although picking one specific branch would be a nightmare, since I've been subscribing to bits and pieces of several. Am friends with several feminists, mostly radfems, a couple third wavers, and a trans-feminist. Looking forward to doing more reading and engaging with the activities of the disparate sub-groups.
Critical theory is structurally rhizomatic and we can all develop our own unique approaches to and views on these topics by synthesis of ideas that you can construct useful and correct arguments with.
I personally consider myself an ecofeminist because my analysis of the position of women in society extends beyond that to the position of animals and nature as well, because it's all part of the same system of dominance that structures our society. I think there's a lot of insight to be found in the commonalities in the Man:Woman versus Man:Nature dichotomies.
Personally believe that it's a wonderful concept that went horribly wrong. Equality between the sexes, regardless of gender, race, class, etc? Wonderful! Kill all men and make this Barbie fatter? Why the fuck do you even bother? My gf is a huge feminist but she's slowly starting to wean off of it and I've never been more proud
>>5644336 No, not really. Of the religious toys mostly the United Church crowd, and a couple Catholics and Anglicans, with a token Muslim woman. Why do you compare Radical Feminists to Fundamentalist Christians?
>>5644350 Maybe because the bit about them saying that it's wrong to be effeminate, or the part about them lgbt predators and other stuff just like the fundies do. Both of them hate anything different.
>>5643897 It stopped the mudslimes before, maybe it'll do that again. That was good and it would be good once more.
Also, jesus was pretty much a hippie, which is really good. As far as religions go, christianism is somewhat better than the others. Certainly not a good religion, there is no such thing, but it is not as bad as, say, islam or some violent african shit.
>>5643699 Feminism is purely anti-male, which happens to include gay males. They say they are for full equality, but are not. They attack all of GBT and only accept L.
Feminism is pretty much out to get me, so I hate it. I'd never associate with anyone who's openly a feminist (not like any such person would be even remotely pleasant, anyhow).
>>5643891 Yes! >>5643897 Except art, literature, and the development of America. >>5644055 You've got a point and you made it respectfully. I won't get into how there are different types of feminisms and feminists but that's my main point. I think intersectionals who don't properly understand their own issues and screech about every issue and nonissue that comes their way are providing fuel for the young anti-feminists who don't understand that feminism is not a monolith. The common theme among 15-25 yr. old twitter feminists is that black/muslim/hispanic men cannot be sexist, which is laughable because those are the groups that are more so than white men.
>>5644110 >>5644350 Like you, I associate with a diverse group of ideological types. I feel it is necessary to keep me well-rounded.
>>5644322 I don't consider feminism to be beating a dead horse yet but I do think the term has been pretty heavily soiled by the type you describe. Are you a lesbian? I'm curious to know if there are non-feminist lesbians out there.
OP, I am a feminist but sort of different from others who call themselves such, the closest label would be "individualist feminist". I believe in gaining social equality without controlling people. Basically feminism from a more libertarian standpoint. >Inb4 edgy I'm ready for my view to be changed. I used to be an MRA, a couple years ago when this SJW thing started up but then I became more well rounded and didn't just hang around in circle-jerks.
>>5644541 I can't deny that there are radfems that support those stances, but you've certainly not described any of the core precepts.
Rather than it being "wrong to be effeminate", the movement is hostile to the societal enforcement of femininity or masculinity, or the way these memes have been enshrined as essential truths of the human condition within our cultures. A rejection of these traditional notions is seen as an act of defiance, sure, but the many qualities and values marketed as "masculine" or "feminine" are just human qualities that have been gender-segregated despite their existence within all persons.
"LGBT predators" are not the bogeyman of radical feminism, but of a small group that has aligned its interests with conservatives and fundamentalists in defense of extremely traditional and clearly divided gender roles that they've given a new name. I'm sick of talking about them, but it seems their use of feminist terminology bereft of respect for feminist principles in opposition to feminist ideals has been enough to poison opinions.
Hatred for those that are different is pretty emphatically not part of radical feminism.
The people engaging in these activities regularly face censure and criticism within the larger community. Dissenting voices can't realistically be silenced in a movement about sharing our diverse experiences and observations, only challenged by others.
>>5643891 Pretty much this, which also ends up being one of the critical flaws of feminism, since it results in lots of divisiveness between people supposedly marching under the same banner.
>>5643699 I'd describe myself as a feminist, in the sense that I subscribe to gender egalitarianism. Also, I think feminism has a lot of good points about how gender roles are generally arbitrary and socially constructed by peer groups, media, and institutions.
Feminism us much too gynocentric to be effective as a group that encourages equal rights.
It's also a fashionable label amoungst many communities. People like the idea of it and what it's "meant to be" without actually looking at the movement and seeing if they believe in it. This is why every feminist you'll talk to have some sort of caveat about "I'm a feminist but I'm not like those x feminists!" while at the same time not being able to tell you their stance on sec positivity.
I'd feel sorry for actual feminists that are having their movement appropriated to speak with a voice that doesn't represent them but, frankly, they deserve it. Feminists have been doing the same to shitloads of movements.
Because Feminism is fashionable and therefore feminists add Feminism to their Persona. It is impossible for you to be a feminist and a communist. You must be a feminist communist! Or capitalist. Or sandwich chef. Because the main enemy in all this is the patriarchy that is responsible for all that capitalism/communism
I completely agree with 2nd wave feminism and would call myself a feminist if the movement hadn't been hijacked into something else in recent years. 1st and 2nd wave feminists had legitimate greivances that needed to be redressed, but the 3rd wave types--for the most part--are mostly focused on BS like "manspreading" and "microaggressions" and are oftentimes in favor of things I am strongly opposed to, such as censorship.
I would consider myself to be more of an egalitarian insofar that an egalitarian is the end goal. Feminist, anti-racist causes and such are simply partial issues that will serve as means to the end of egalitarianism. Also, I think classism/social stratification is something that needs to be addressed before true equality and unity can ever be realized. It is the most important issue for this all to take place, yet most put that issue on the back burner, except for naive Marxists and such who happen to hate the sort of identity politics that has corrupted leftism in general.
Also, oddly there's a ton of stuff that MRA's and feminists would agree on and their talking points are oftentimes almost exactly the same. And both groups would realize this if they weren't so steep into their own brands of chauvinism and if they actually bothered to read the stuff written by the more reasonable people in both camps. MRA's say that things are stacked against men because of an anti-male conspiracy (kind of the same thing that feminists say about females). Feminists often make the same arguments but instead chalk them up to "toxic masculinity" or aspects of our "patriarchal" that are harmful/downsides to men, i.e., men aren't allowed to show emotions freely, are encouraged to be "macho" and violent, etc. The whole concept of "patriarchy" would be more palatable to MRAs and the general populace if it was just called something more broadly, like "the status quo". The status quo is racist, sexist, etc. It's a grave oversimplification to say it's just "patriarchy".
It's just misandry these days. Only good thing about it is that it keeps promoting fat-positive propaganda to women and also tells them to be as bitchy as possible towards straight men, so in the future all the qt straight men turn to other qt guys since women just aren't worth it anymore. It will be a gay paradise.
>>5646942 Are you seriously saying that Christianity has no role in building Western society and moral values? The good thing about Christianity is that it went through many reformations(unlike Islam, for example) and Jesus spreads the message of love and peace.
If you wanna jump into reading head first, Google "Gender Trouble by Judith Butler". The third link is the full book in PDF hosted on lauragonzales.com.
The idea that men of color are "more" sexist than white men is actually a racist discourse you're (perhaps unconsciously) reproducing in your argument. There's no such thing as any group of men writ large being more or less sexist/misogynistic than another. It's more accurate and correct to acknowledge that misogyny manifests *differently* among different racial and ethnic groups, because the ultimate effect is that the culture privileges men and masculinity above women and femininity.
People act as if you have to side with feminism or be an mra or some random shit. Just fucking do work that makes fucking sense. To do it for a cause is stupid.
I swear, if half the people on each side would work a soup kitchen (which help many gay and trans people as well as the usual others) or help build or maintain a batter shelter (for men or women) all our lives would be better.
Unfortunately, most people don't as we still have the Salvation Army and other harmful groups doing most of the work. In the US at least.
>>5646942 Liberal Christians like the Episcopalians have been lobbying for lgbt rights nonstop. They openly take on their bigoted co coreligionists, divert charities for lgbt and don't stigmatize them.
Libfems are too cowardly to do anything about radfems who openly work with the religious right to tar lgbt as child eaters. It's safe to say that liberal Christians are better allies.
I'm all for gender equality, but mainstream, white feminism is getting pretty retarded (manspreading, thought policing, stare rape, censorship, attack on freespeech, fear mongering, spreading false information) also internet feminism has become cult-ish like it's kinda weird
"Manspreading" is just an example of the everyday consequences of a patriarchal society. The entire reason manspreading is a thing is because it is so inconsequential, but it's also visible, and I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why it's a social convention that exists that doesn't consider gendered power relations. Men don't think about the space they take up the same way women do, and that manifests in different ways, one being as simple as men spreading their legs while they're sitting on the bus or the train even if they're bumping into people sitting next to them.
As opposed to the simple fact that sitting with your legs closed applies heat and pressure to your testes which is not only uncomfortable but painful, what happened to "my body my rules" also how come no one loses their shit when a woman takes up more space with her purses or bags?
>>5651203 Jeez didn't know all balls are the same according too you, I guess I'll have to condition my sensitive balls to the needs of society, also since we are using personal experience as fact, when I rode the bus it was rare for women to move their shit when people needed room so yeah...
>>5651208 FYI, any polite person will take up less room if you ask them to. Therefore manspreading isn't an issue. Unless you honestly want to argue that people sitting wide when it's bothering people is an issue.
If you are honestly arguing this: 1. Holy shit compensate harder. You're going to beat the world record 2. The woman in this scenario is taking up a whole extra seating place and therefore more important space.
But it isn't an issue. Because men don't spread when it's getting in the way. The very few that do aren't tied to your bogeyman. They're just horribly impolite. Like the woman who refuses to move her bags when asked. This is not a sexism issue.
Would argue that your experience as a male foes not represent every male but somebody already has.
>>5643699 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuFuyp8aq2A Feminism is trash it has since been removed but there was a great video on youtube that quoted a lot of Feminist leaders (pioneers of the 'philosophy') and there is literal hatespeech towards men
Feminism is ultimately an anti man brigade of bullshit designed to separate people like everything else under the guise is being a legitimate thing.
>>5651861 And feminism =/= equal rights for women Feminism is taking the concept of equality which is just basic freedom and using it as a shield to basically be a cancer. The road to hell is paved in good intentions, what better disguise than good intentions after all?
Following the fall of the Roman Empire, Christian monks and scholars were the only ones keeping the history and technological advances alive. Skills like reading and writing were uncommon outside of the clergy.
Also the church acted as a arbitrator between warring medieval kingdoms, and plenty of war and bloodshed was averted as a result.
Feminism is an open eneded idology that anyone can subscribe to and say what it means. It is meaningless because anyone can claim "real feminism". You have had beliefs and ideologies that counter act each other in the history of feminism and i am constantly hearing the phrase thats not real feminism, although rarely by feminist speaking out against radical fems, its usually used as a defense against anyone who questions some beliefs.
I have some "friends" that call themselves feminist and they are actually good ones, they have atleast called out man hating and anything less that equal in terms of close knit most would say most would call themselves a womans rights activist or feminist if a person just for equality was saying that
That's the point. It's shades of grey. If you want to talk about how the Catholic church suppressed knowledge and information then why not talk about other religions or forms of government and what they do. Don't pin the blame on the church and ignore the others, that's scapegoating.
>>5652218 All religions and people do it, everyone stamps out what they disagree with and spouts what they do.
Your points are the equivalent of "Other people did it too so it's scapegoating to blame catholicism." Catholicism is just as bad as anything else, stop trying to deflect blame from it onto other religions or forms of government. Another's sin does not wash out your own. In the western hemisphere, catholic church was the main religious/political force so there's reason for people in the western hemisphere to talk about it.
All humans are shit when they think they know stuff. I know fucking nothing.
Then why focus on the church God damn it. If everyone ever is to blame for everything. God damn it I'm not even Catholic and I hate the religion of Catholicism but I won't wholy hate the church, because through them so much knowledge wasn't permanently lost. The thing is, History can be lost forever but we have a goddamn eternity to discover everything.
>>5652237 You should also thank the muslims for preserving much of greek philosophy too then, no thanks to the church by the way. Stop defending a straw man, the point is it's a straw man and it's built to fall over. The church is fucked because the church was built on values that are no longer relevant.
Also, I'm not focusing on the church, you and that other person are. I think they're just poking at a straw man since the church is rather easy to mock in its old age.
The fact you're defending it is kind if hilarious to me, because the points you're making are a little ridiculous. Like if you had an uncle who touched you when he came to visit and made you sit in his lap with a raging erection and said he'd kill you if you told anyone, but he slipped you $200 one birthday so you think it's forgivable or something.
Your point is still stupid because you're saying that any good they did washes out the bad. Again, that perverted uncle is still a creep even if he did slip you $200.
That's not to say their point that Catholicism never did anything right is correct. In fact it's just as absurd. The point is you're silly for having engaged in this discussion.
That's a shitty and irrelevant analogy. Like, what? How are the two even comperable. The only likeness to be drawn is that the uncle and the priest both diddle kids. But it does nothing to refute my original point. In fact, you have said nothing to refute any of my grand total of 1 points, which is that the church gets a bad rap for suppressing knowledge when in fact they were critical for many centuries in preserving it.
>>5643699 There won't be a universal one among all queers, but to me, it seems pretty fucking pointless.
All rights men have women have as well, the rest just seems to be angry man-haters looking for an axe to grind or women who lack agency trying to get shit for free or at least very easily and blame other groups for their lack of ability.
In my conversations with feminists they're as comprehensive as brick walls. They have their worldview and want to stick with it, almost like zealots to their religion, all the while claiming the feminists who get the most attention are the crazy ones but "I'm totally sensible", even though as I interrogate further I discover they really hold the exact same views as them but just aren't as outspoken, they use the "feminazis" as a whipping boy to take the negative attention off of themselves and disarm opposition but claiming dissimilarity.
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