Can /lgbt/ come to a consensus as to what GENDER is, what SEX is, what GENDER IDENTITY is, and how these three differ?
Just for the sake of semantics, I tend to use dictionary definitions, but since there's several definitions (many of them CONFLICTING) I'd like to see what other people go by.
If your response is something along the lines of "it doesn't matter," you're missing the point and I'd ask you to take this thread more literally and not just dismiss it as trolling or an attack on your fragile emotions.
Well there is male and female
Sometimes,very rarely, you can be born a hermaphrodite, but usually still refer to yourself as ether male or female, whoever you look like more
And then there are annoying people who want to be special and try do dictate how other people refer to them
It's pretty simple
Gender comes from the latin root word Genus, which can be construed to mean "birth/family/nation," in other words, it's a form of arbitrary classification based on observable details and not a medical term.
To that end, the way that words work, Gender simply doesn't have a solid and distinct definition that can be universally applied.
Sex is a medical term and we shouldn't be mincing words with it. It's mostly determined by chromosomes.
Gender Identity is a made up term that means nothing at all.
The opposite of that fucking pic.
Fuck all that transgender mind gymnastics.
Transsexuals transition to PASS as the OPPOSITE. Transgender make up more and more bullshit explanations and terminologies to explain their scientifically unproven nonsense. They go even as far as desperately calling gender studies scientifical.
Gender as in gender ROLES doesn't exist as it is defined socially across cultures but gender is the same as sex which means, male, female or intersex.
Gender identity is what you call yourself and on part with furries and otherkin because while you can see yourself as a dainty fox and live like you are one you are still the same cheetos covered neckberd male human trapped in your mom's basement.
>in other words, it's a form of arbitrary classification based on observable details and not a medical term.
Gee, I could use that argument to declassify many medical terms. Sorry that you don't know how badly the rules are followed for medical terms.
>Showing your brainlessness.
Enlighten me, Ms. Tumblrina.
What medical claims do transgenders have over transsexuals?
>girl with a dick
>genuinly thinking they're female(ish)
>wearing makeup and a wig, not transitioning
>claiming you identify as girl
>Doing fuck all about it
Sex is a form of classification based on your reproductive organs.
Gender is a term to attempt to divide people based on their "brain sex", a moderately-evidenced idea that men and women differ neurologically.
"Gender identity" is whatever you say it is.
>between you and your doctor
>between you and everybody else
>how you act, look and feel
>whether one ticks the male or female box on forms when asked for gender
Hell yeah, they brought so many into my country and they're such nice company.
The Aztecs had this philosophy called Nahua. They believed that there are 2 truths to everything.
>>being and not-being, order and disorder, harmony and disharmony, light and darkness, life and death, man and woman, and active and passive
They believed that every concept is like a coin, two different sides, but one in the same.
So to answer your question OP...
There was, like, a reddit thread a bit ago where someone was asking "hey, what do I have to do to be a woman? do I just call myself a woman?", and literally every response was "yeah, all you have to do is call yourself a woman, and bam!, you're a woman now".
like, i don't think you can call yourself a woman unless you're living as a woman, and being treated by the rest of society as a woman, and being recognized legally and socially as a woman. never mind that women actually look like fucking women, and not men in skirts.
but no, just slap that nametag on and you've changed your gender.
Gender is a social construct of the patriarchy to segregate the class of people called women from the class of people called men.
It functions the same way as race, and just like race is based on a simple external biological marker like skin color, gender is based on a simple external biological marker that is the person's genitals.
Transsexualism does little to challenge this situation. Men with a "feminine" personality, instead of seeing themselves as proof that gender is bullshit, conclude that they must really be women because of their personality.
No, it is quite clearly not possible for /lgbt/ to come to a consensus on this.
Ask for something more sensible next time, like, "could anyone confirm my opinions and help me mock everyone who doesn't also hold them".
>And then there are annoying who want to dictate how other people refer to them.
How is that different than dictating a gender binary? Why is it okay for people to accept the pronouns that OTHER people feel like using for them, but totally irrational and selfish to ask people to refer to you with the pronouns you identify with?
>Analyzing gender differences and similarities in societal and biological contexts is beyond science.
Don't generalize your personal limitations on the rest of humanity.
Sex isn't gender, or both men and women would dress and act the same throughout history, without regards to time or culture. That's not true at all. It's also not true that, historically, there are only two genders at any one time in any given culture.
You're basically being retarded.
Hell, there's not even technically two sexes -- just overwhelmingly common that you'll fall into the two breeding ones (for most of your body, because we're finding out genetic chimerism may be the rule and not the exception).
That Tumblr shit isn't right either, but that doesn't make your image fixed.
Plus, gender is sexual orientation? The fuck? How do you even logically support that shonky business?
This desu. There's two parts of gender. First is identifying as that gender, second is being identified as that gender.
The left loves the first and ignores the second, the right loves the second and ignores the first.
If I am walking down the road and everyone thinks I'm a girl, am I magically a girl? NO! I'll be the first to tell you that I'm a dude.
But if I'm walking down the road and I think I'm a girl but nobody else agrees with me, am I magically a girl? NO.
this modified picture is what I go by
I don't buy into the delusional crazy stuff being spouted by /lgbt/
Sorry in advance; go ahead and call me ignorant, stupid, etc etc etc
Gender and sex are synonyms. You are born a specific gender. Anything past that is nonsense. This is the truth and the reason it makes trans people upset is because they KNOW this is the truth and it shatters their echo-box ideology. Their entire self-worth is built around "BEING" the other gender, which of course is biologically impossible.
Richard Dawkins doesn't buy into transgenderism, nor do I. If someone so extremely educated on the topic sees through it, I see no reason to contend with the nigh-religious banter that trans people constantly post online.
The sad truth is at a biological and evolutionary level, there is only male and female, with the rare defect of intersexuality within homosapiens.
Anything else is internalized and 100% mental. If you somehow can't see that transgenderism is 100% in the brain/mind, then you are too far beyond any sort of logic or reasoning.
I tend to see disturbing reoccurring themes of blissful ignorance when talking to die-hard religious zealots (Islam, Southern Baptists, etc) as well as with the transgender community.
I know the term gets thrown around a lot, but "cognitive dissonance" is really the best description for this condition.
Any how, I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I was linked to this thread and I thought I would post my two cents. I wish all of you the best, but I will in no way support this supposed "trans rights" movement any more than I would support a "schizophrenic's rights" movement. You don't deserve special rights, you deserve appropriate treatment. The reinforced idea of pretending to be the opposite sex is by in no means a proper treatment. If it were, I doubt the post-transition suicide rate would be hovering in the 40% range.
If this treatment avenue had not been thoroughly pursued by the sex change industry (yes, industry; there's plenty of money and jobs to be made on the mentally ill victims) perhaps a better treatment method would have been devised.
It's all sad, really, and I pity the trans movement more than anything.
Have a good night everyone
>The gender you identify with has to be collectively approved by society. Otherwise, it's not official.
I still have trouble buying into this. Once you acknowledge that gender is a social construct, it just seems like you're an asshole if you don't refer to someone by their preferred pronouns, even if they don't fit the qualities you personally associate with that gender.
It's kinda like if someone is legally born one name, but prefers to be called by a different name. Even if they aren't legally recognized by their preferred name, what good reason do you have for ignoring their personally chosen title? "Sorry, but you don't LOOK like a Paul, Kevin."
You're going to need to cite that, because I'm fairly certain that Dawkins isn't such a complete retard as to dismiss consistent historical recurrence and modern neurological study out of hand.
I really don't make the rules. Calling something a "social construct" doesn't make it a la-la-land magical fantasy that's totally made up.
To put it in a different situation, race is a social construct that was invented in the 1790s. It would be totally absurd to suggest that someone can choose their race. They just are.
However, it is RIDICULOUSLY common for people with questionable ethnic heritages to be conveniently part of a race. Barack Obama has one black-identifying parent and one white-identifying parent. What is he? Is he black? He's black because then we have a black president and that's important. He also has some traits of "Black." Meanwhile, Mariah Carey has one Irish parent and one Black/Hispanic parent, but we have collectively judged her to be "I don't fucking know."
We can assess Usain Bolt to be "very black" and Louis C.K. to be "very white," and they'll agree with you on that. But when it comes down to someone like Mariah Carey, what the fuck do you call her? Well the answer basically comes down to "find a point where both the individual and society agree." Mariah has stated that she wanted to be known as "mixed-race." It makes sense with her appearance and cultural expression, so that's how we treat her. Obama wants to be regarded as "black." Some pale-skinned Hispanics are "white Latino."
Obviously you can't express a gender identity you don't identify as and/or you don't appear to be. Transgender is an odd duck because the feelings of identity are SO strong that they cause serious psychological issues if ignored. People don't usually care about having their racial identity mistaken since it's not as central to who we are as a person as our gender is.
Dawkins does not hold this position. This all comes from you.
I don't actually like Dawkins (he has a really toxic attitude towards discussion where he's just telling everyone else how they're wrong), but he still doesn't hold this position. You are pulling this out of your ass.
The only sad truth in reality is that pretty much everything is really complicated and you don't have enough information to make good decisions. It's like trying to play chess, but you can't see any of the opponent's pieces.
Which brings up another topic, are identities innate or are they created? Too many times, I've seen threads of confused souls who've felt nothing negative about their bodies, but are confused about their feelings being fetish oriented or "legitimate", only to be met with several individuals claiming that the OP is really a certain gender and should see if HRT "works for them". After they've accepted that they are a gender, with the help of the community, they then start to feel th severe bodily dysphoria. I see it all the time. I personally do not believe that identities are repressed or are lurking in the back of the psyche. We form our identities based on hobbies, interests, sexuality, skills, degrees, etc.
Amazing. You have no idea how to interpret very straightforward english.
>richard dawkins concedes that the issue is down to how you define womanhood
>richard dawkins defends free speech in a university, where censorship is anathema
>richard dawkins objects to internet harassment
/pol/ literally makes you retarded, there's no other explanation. The entire world just becomes a series of things that conspire against you or secretly agree with you, with no rhyme or reason. All text is mutable. All truth is forfeit.
You didn't prove your position at all. You shamed yourself. Do you understand that at all?
>Transgender person believes 2 + 2 = 5
>Therapist tells them 2 + 2 = 5
>Go to /lgbt/
>Tell them 2 + 2 = 4
>Get called an idiot
I am so glad you are an overly-vocal vocal minority. I'm starting to view transgenderism more and more as a cult.
>do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you use dictate outside of a political context?
Not that guy but yes, s/he used it in the proper grammatical context in that sentence.
tl;dr- you're wrong and shut up.
>How is that different than dictating a gender binary? Why is it okay for people to accept the pronouns that OTHER people feel like using for them, but totally irrational and selfish to ask people to refer to you with the pronouns you identify with?
Because *newsflash* - it's not your choice. You can either work your ass off and transition to the point where you are passable, or not. If you can't or won't, then you will be identified as what genetics and nature have done to you since conception, and you have to deal with that, but other people don't have to and should not have to.
You want people to consider you as being (for example) female? Become female, don't just grow a beard and tell people "I'm a woman you have to accept me!!!"
Because they don't have to accept you, and if you force them to, you're no better than a nazi.
to me is more of who you are
or who you were suppose to be
to me your biological gender
something you are born with and can not change
the most important part of the gender spectrum
forget gender and sex
this is what you think you are suppose to be
Race is an interesting comparison that I hadn't considered before. It's true that if you were to claim membership of a race without having a clear genetic background in it, you'd probably be chastised and accused of being some kind of racist. Especially if you're a member of a dominant race (like whites) trying to claim membership in a minority race (like blacks), which would launch lots of reminders to check privileges and such.
>I really don't make the rules.
That's where I still disagree. Who makes the rules? Society as a whole? What rationale goes into drawing up the distinctions between races? And ultimately, when are these distinctions anything less than arbitrary markers?
>You need to convince other people that you represent the gender you identify with by exemplifying their social construction of that gender. Otherwise, you're justified in ignoring their gender identity.
Again, I fail to see how that makes you anything less than an asshole, since I still haven't seen a good reason in this thread (or elsewhere) for rejecting the gender a person identifies with. Especially since even the point of "passing" is going to vary from person to person. If I see a really buff woman with short hair and small breasts, am I justified in referring to her as a man? Even if she specifically says that she doesn't identify as one?
>If you force people to accept a person's gender identity, you're no better than a nazi.
I agree that people should technically have the right to recognize others as whatever gender/race/identity they feel like. Free speech and all that fun stuff. But having the legal right to do something doesn't make it objectively right or justified, unless you think the legal system is morally absolute. Which would be backwards as fuck, since the legal system includes mechanisms intended to account for its fallibility.
>>You need to convince other people that you represent the gender you identify with by exemplifying their social construction of that gender. Otherwise, you're justified in ignoring their gender identity.
>Again, I fail to see how that makes you anything less than an asshole, since I still haven't seen a good reason in this thread (or elsewhere) for rejecting the gender a person identifies with. Especially since even the point of "passing" is going to vary from person to person. If I see a really buff woman with short hair and small breasts, am I justified in referring to her as a man? Even if she specifically says that she doesn't identify as one?
But I thought gender was a social construct?
How else are you then to be identified as that gender if you refuse to "exemplify the social construction of that gender"?
>How else are you then to be identified as that gender if you refuse to "exemplify the social construction of that gender"?
By asking someone to refer to you by your preferred pronouns when you notice them using pronouns you don't identify with. It's real simple.
Hmm...nope. If you do not appear male, even in the slightest, I refuse to force myself into a state of dissociation for you. You can stay away from me of course, but you cannot force me to call you "he" if you do not at least dress as a male.
Same applies if the gender is female.
>You can not force me to call you x
Again, your freedoms are not being called into question. It just seems selfish and petty to have such a rigid stance towards gender pronouns. You're acting like it's this massive ordeal. And hey, it's true that you might let the wrong pronoun slip, even when you're making an attempt to be respectful. Still not a big deal.
It just seems like a really basic courtesy that asks so little of you, but means so much to someone.
I made a graph to help solve this dilemma.
This is coming from an actual tranny btw.
You are clearly butthurt that you spouted off something that contradicted evidence and got shut the fuck down. The only thing academics care about is ability to prove. Universities have traditionally protected radicalism, activism, retractionism, and contradiction to their core. And that doesn't always mean far left. That's the whole concept behind tenure, you utter moron.
>something that contradicted evidence
Yeah, no. Universities censor ideas all the time. Try going to yours and putting out evidence-backed arguments that some popular modern liberal social trend is bullshit, and see what happens to you. For maximum effect, I suggest speaking critically about feminism. If you run fast enough, you might not need to actually be hospitalized.
Right, just like I thought. You replaced evidence with politics and got laughed out of an academic setting. Now you're shitting the bed on the internet with histrionics and hyperbole, because you couldn't handle the bantz.
You're a huge bitch, anon.
>If you make no effort, why should I?
>I can't be bothered to substitute a pronoun in conversation if you won't at least spend years taking hormones, get several reconstructive surgeries, go through speech therapy to adjust the timber of your voice, and always dress according to the traditional masculine/feminine standards that I personally subscribe to.
First off, the economy of your standards for courtesy are a disaster.
Second, how much of an effort do you have to make to be recognized as your gender identity? Why should other people be forced to jump through arbitrary hoops?
>Not to mention all the tumblr made-up genders (xir xie xiu, fe fi fo, etc etc)
All gender is "made-up", in the same way that racial differentiation is arbitrary. The gender binary probably originates from a recognition of different sexes, but it takes far greater liberties with assumptions and expectations in social contexts. Non-binary gender terms are basically just another way of saying that you don't exclusively identify with strict standards of masculinity or femininity.
>You replaced evidence with politics
You just managed to contradict yourself in two posts.
First you bleated about "spouted off something that contradicted evidence and got shut the fuck down", then when I pointed out that universities censor ideas, and gave an example of how to prove my point, you went immediately for a personal attack and threw in a sprinkling of insults, to boot. Quite frankly, your unbridled aggression to any disagreement seems a standard for people in higher education today, and that is a sad reflection on the poor standards that now exist.
The only free speech left in universities is in subjects that have no social component, such as the hard sciences. Everything else is held captive to popular opinion. The fact that you dismiss it as "politics", shows that quite clearly.
So if we generally agree that gender is a transient social construct, and the primary issue for most non-cis persons is the use of a transient noun to describe themselves...
What do they think is going to happen when the word changes? The way people treat you is not based on a name, it's based on the person, how they act and how they look. The whole reason that gender pronouns is seen as a farce is because it impacts, essentially, nothing other than your ego.
Sticks and stones, right?
Shhh, it's critically important! Apparently even asking them to shave their facial hair in order to call them "she" is inhuman torture.
They need their safe space, because you know, they're strong or something....
I wouldnt even ask them to shave. I accomodate most people just because the words are meaningless to being with. It's on par with a nickname. It impacts nothing, what's the harm.
I dont presume to hold off on using gender pronouns because the english language doesnt alot a way to use "male" in place of "him". If i think you're acting/looking like a guy im going to refer to you as such until you make a polite request otherwise. If it's a big deal to you, whatever, but it's ultimately meaningless and there is absolutely no reason that there should be such a huge movement for everyone to presume and accomodate something so superfluous.
If you went through the trouble of transitioning and resculpting your entire life and image to fit one of those pronouns, well gee whiz, good on you for doing you.
>Why are pronouns such a big deal?
How would you feel if someone referred to you with gender pronouns you didn't identify with? How would you feel if almost everyone referred to you by those pronouns all the time?
>it impacts, essentially, nothing other than your ego.
I agree. If nothing else, using preferred pronouns prevents someone's feelings from being hurt.
Are you cynical to the point of seeing no value in that?
not that anon, but:
>How would you feel if someone referred to you with gender pronouns you didn't identify with? How would you feel if almost everyone referred to you by those pronouns all the time?
Eventually you stop caring, unless you're mentally ill.
> If nothing else, using preferred pronouns prevents someone's feelings from being hurt.
>Are you cynical to the point of seeing no value in that?
Yes. Because people's feelings have fucked me over too many times to count.
>how would you feel if someone referred to you by the wrong pronoun
I wouldnt think twice. What harm is it for someone to call me a woman? I dont find value in being known as a "man". Im male, that's that. I'll act and be what i want and what people decide to call me is their business. So long as they dont actively inhibit my life in a tangible way, who cares what words go around?
>are you cynical to the point of being hurt by that?
No, which is why i'm happy to oblige if someone politely requests a different pronoun than whatever i assume.
This is really sad. I bet this is how you argued in the uni and you have no idea why it didn't work. I didn't contradict myself. You didn't provide a relevant example. I'm not being aggressive. One person is not ever a good reflection of an entire group. This is not an academic setting. And you're still a moron.
Damn, you don't even know the meaning of politics. You think it's some kind of insult, or shallow pursuit. Are you ever going to stop being a huge bitch, and raise your own standards to what you're pretending you hold others to?
>Yes. Because people's feelings have fucked me over too many times to count.
I'm sorry to hear that, anon. I obviously don't know the details of your experiences, but I hope something better comes your way to help turn that view around.
>Eventually you stop caring
We have an entire field of evidence that suggests how a person is treated by their society effects how they see themselves, and is the primary cause for the development of mental illnesses. You are ignorant to the point of laughability.
What's in your pants.
The kind of pants you wear.
What you do with what's in your pants when those pants come off.