>>28911832 >that absolutely devastating attack that nearly crippled the American fleet back in WW2. Uh no, it was a small time raid by 300 single-engine bombers that was lucky to permanently sink 2 battleships.
Which, in case you're wondering, is why the Soviets never throw anything out.
In the case of widespread Warsaw Pact / NATO conflict it was generally understood that there would be a frantic period of irreplaceable losses and attrition, followed by a lull as modern equipment from each side is exhausted.
Then, either a negotiation period, or a period of rapid mobilization and rearmament with previous generation technology.
This is why the mothball fleet and the airframes at the boneyard were always retained.
Like during the mid 80's one dude calculated it and found that it would be so monumentally expensive and destructive hostility wouldn't last longer than 6 months before both sides economies ground to a halt under the strain.
>>28913751 All of this is assuming any conceivable conventional conflict wouldn't be decided inside 6 weeks just on air and naval power. The occupation/asymmetrical bullshit is another matter, and it's not like NATO is EVER going to perform a land invasion against China, when they can just bomb them back to the stone age and cut off all sea trade.
>>28911913 They don't, anymore. They were leaking lead and polluting the waters they were in, so the states sued and got the Navy to haul them out and scrap them. Considering the ships that were actually in the reserve fleets, and the fact that a tiny percentage of them were ever reactivated, it was no big loss.
>>28913418 >Iowa They struck her like 6-8 years ago, bro. They never repaired her turret anyways, and they literally don't have the tooling to build her new guns anymore. This is discounting the metal bars the Navy welded into the breeches of New Jersey's and Missouri's guns.
>>28914671 And because, you know, they sunk the ships in a harbor. They only put Utah, Oklahoma, and Arizona permanently out of action, and even then we just said "fuck it" on the Okie and Utah instead of actually returning them to service.
>>28914858 ...why? What would you gain in spending the time and effort yanking out the main guns of a 70 year old riveted-construction ship to put missiles in some jury-rigged mounting instead of just building a ship specifically for them? The entire fucking POINT of the Iowas is their offshore fire support capability; they're utterly obsolete in every other manner. And considering how many amphibious invasions we've done in the past 50 years, we can't justify keeping around ships that require crews that number in the thousands for that alone, especially since they use tech that no other ship does.
That's a factor a lot of people forget: the engines and power grid in the Iowas are 70 fucking years old. They are utterly unique at this stage; if you're going to crew them they need people trained on their equipment and their equipment alone; it's not going to be applicable on any other ship.
>>28911728 >What if 30 MBTs get destroyed in a single engagement or 10 fighters get shot down simultaneously? Same as always. They take them from reserve. Size of reserve depends from country. >>28911832 >remember pearl harbor? Remember times, when you could build plane with small tools only? Well, they are gone.
They have plants in Detroit and Texas /itching/ to produce a gorrilaton of tonks to make the T-55's production numbers seem quaint; it's the fact that we have no real use for that amount of tanks that's staved them mostly, with what we're currently producing done in order to keep them from going out of buisness.
>>28914871 I contest this statement. We didn't control iraq and afganistan because we were trying to win hearts and minds and 'build relationships' and be surgical and clean and all that stupid shit. If we had gone in with the intention of beating the population into bloody submission like we did to japan then we would have done great because that's what militaries are good at, they are bad at establishing democracy and winning hearts and minds.
>>28915976 Nah. The thing is we don't have the intelligent trained people to deliver on an order like that. We are using 90-100% of the well trained machinists and fabricators we have. If Northrop or whoever had to quadruple its work force overnight it just couldn't. It would be training people for 6 months and quality would probably be shit for a year.
>>28916563 You vastly underestimate how many layoff's happened during first and second government shutdown of contractors.
Also if shit was really truly to go down I could see even more chopping down of assembly line workage and hiring unskilled people to do smaller tasking to alleviate the full time workers. QA could be enlarged and more spot checks but overall it'll work.
The US military literally has nothing stockpiled besides ammunition. If for some reason a stryker battalion or fighter wing was annihilated, it would take literally a decade to recover those losses. Modern equipment cannot be mothballed and called back into service whenever, they are sensitive devices that require PMCS and regular diagnostics
It takes literally a decade for a new ANYTHING to be fielded, and it's not because the military pays slowly, it's because Lockheed and Boeing don't have enough manufacturing power to create them quickly and consistently. it's not WWII where there are millions of laborers working off war bonds to load ammo and do simple machinist tasks, just making a functional and up to spec MBT takes literally years
>>28917223 >>28917243 You both realize there are literal stock piles of this shit right? Boeing/Lockheed arn't the ones who fix most of the shit on the planes unless its a serious issue or going through Depot level maint.
Most equipment/systems are fixed by their respective branch's. For the Navy all avionics go through AIMD/FRC and for Marine corp its MALS. These things are all over the world and have just giant warehouses of shit. I can't tell you how many times i've ordered a part and recieved one that was RFI'd in the 80/90's.
>>28917217 Please read the thread, it has been pointed out multiple times that we do literally have this shit sitting around waiting to be activated. AMARG is the big one for aviation and I've had to go down there to retrieve P-3 parts before for use on active birds. Their shit's in Pres I/II/III status with most being in III and having all electronics/non structual components removed and put into supply system while planes themselves have all oil/fuel/hyd emptied and filled with longevity CPC's. There is an entire Air Force command dedicated to just the preservation of these planes and general upkeep while in pres.
>>28911832 Ive posted this before and Ill post it again and again until people get the fucking picture.
>coal mines- closed, skilled miners gone >coke ovens- lol, what are those? >railroads- gone, turned into bike trails >steel mills- see "Allentown" by billy joel >heavy manufacturing- see Detroit
Our military infrastructure and weapons have gotten vastly more complicated and the logistics chain is impossibly long while we've simultaneously shuttered, torn down, and bulldozed the heavy industry that could support an all out war effort.
while some manufacturing has gotten more efficient, the efficiency hasn't, can't, and wouldn't be able to make up for the lack of industrial infrastructure if we had to go all out.
and the problem isnt just that we tore down our steel mills/plants/mining ops etc., the problem is that the skilled laborers that knew how do all that shit are either retired or dead
That's all well and good when it comes to sustaining existing equipment, for a while at least until you start running of shit. It doesn't help you at all when it comes time to build a whole bunch of brand new aircraft.
from what I understand, most branches have a fuckton of older shit just sitting around ready-ish for combat (M60A3s, A6 Intruders, shit like that) as for actively replacing whats destroyed, no fucking clue >>28917549 "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." -Robert Opperheimer
So yeah we have pretty large slot to pull replacements from either in terms of parts to air frame sections.
If we are losing assets at such a massive rate that we need to suddenly build new ones then Nukes are probably already going to be flying and it's a moot point anyways. We could literally QF modify most of the already built boneyard planes slap AMRAAMS/HARMS on them and overwhelm pretty much any AIDS in the world. Without a single loss of life on our side.
>>28917602 "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." yeah, if we get in a conflict that bad it's gonna be ww3 and then we're all fucked. I really wish we kept around some old M60A3s or some shit just in case, or even kept the Iowas on the list of shit that can pulled back to service
>>28915885 The whole reserve fleet thing is a farce.
you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine?
fuck, many of those planes are there because they have a billion hours on the airframe and arent safe to fly and they're there for spare parts on legacy planes.
We dont even have the computers to calibrate the Avionics anymore. We cant run the programs on new computers. We dont manufacture much of the ammo that the guns in many older planes use, and modern missiles arent all going to be backwards compatible.
The planes and tanks in the reserve fleet are not front line and crews would have to be trained in the older tech using archaic equipment
>>28917617 so you're saying that when we get in a big motherfucker of a conflict with NK or some shit, and lose a bunch of aircraft, we're fucked? and that the whole boasting of "biggest ready military" in the world is kinda bullshit? well fuck. I'm sure at least 10% of our reserve shit is viable, though.
>>28917650 shit like this is why I wish we still had a mechanical reserve. old M48s and deuces and shit that an EMP can't fuck over. simple as fuck to maintain and build and cheap as shit. but no, we gotta have this electronic shit.
>>28917617 >fuck, many of those planes are there because they have a billion hours on the airframe and arent safe to fly and they're there for spare parts on legacy planes. The ones that are literally there to be stripped and parted out. It's called REDSTRIPE program also known as HONA in navy. The main airframe may be passed it's flight hours but elevators, ailerons, rudders, etc can be inspected and re-introduced to supply.
>you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine? The tires get regularly checked by the inspection crews, most engines are completely removed and added to the supply pool, and actually yes they have been cycling planes in and out of the boneyard quite often. All the centennial birds for 100th year of Aviation came from the boneyard and were unpressed then given to Squadrons. Pic related is one of those birds and one of the best birds I've ever worked on for how clean and efficient the thing was cuz it was taken care of instead of having the shit flown out of it like most of our planes.
>We dont even have the computers to calibrate the Avionics anymore. We cant run the programs on new computers. See again my point about FRC/AIMD. Their job in the military is literally to calibrate avionics. Fucking systems on P-3C's are same as they were in 1970 on most planes. Hell ALR-81 says "BTFR" when you turn it on which stands for "Beat the Fucking Russians".
>The planes and tanks in the reserve fleet are not front line and crews would have to be trained in the older tech using archaic equipment Your acting like most of these havn't been used in a while. Yet F-4's up until very recently were still used in Target/Agressor role. Hell S-3's have been phased out for years now and yet VX-30 just last month got rid of it's last S-3's.
>>28917152 >You vastly underestimate how many layoff's happened during first and second government shutdown of contractors.
being a "government contractor" doesnt give you the skills to assemble missiles and modern airplanes. You're talking about training people to do a specific task which is part of an even more specific task.
you're literally so ignorant of the skill level required that you can't grasp the concept.
>>28917650 >where we gonna get the rare earths for the electronics? Mountain Pass is reopened, and there are other REE mines which have yet to be exploited in the US.
>what mines will deliver the raw materials to the mills? Any number of mines in the continental US, Alaska and allies' territory. Just because it got cheaper to buy raw materials from elsewhere and let China drain their strategic reserve does not mean those magically go away.
>what steel mills and forges are going to produce the specialty metals? https://www.steel.org/Making%20Steel/~/media/Files/AISI/Making%20Steel/2010_SteelPlant_NorthAmerica_HypocycloidVersion6.ashx
>where are the fab plants that can make the parts? Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US.
Also, this - and that's just automotive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States
>where is the transportation infrastructure that bring all these things together? The US still has the most extensive rail network in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size
Same with roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_road_network_size
And the most Panamax ports in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Panamax_ports#United_States_of_America
>where is the massive skilled labor pool to draw workers that are certified to weld aircraft parts and have the degrees and clearances to install sensitive electronics? The US still has an excellent education system suitable for training such labor, and boasts the 4th largest labor force in the world (only if you count the EU as one country - 3rd if not). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_force
>>28917650 >>28917714 >this isnt 1945, we cant just send is some dyke with a riveting gun and a ball peen hammer and churn out B-24s No, it ain't 1945, but that doesn't mean you know what the fuck you're talking about.
>>28912883 why win hearts and minds when you can splatter them all over the sand? >>28917714 to me, the biggest issue is the troops, not the equipment. sure there's the draft, but if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out.
>>28917740 >can't mass produce something of modern complexity easy what are cars you dumb fuck. also, the military complex of contractors and shit can make just about any fucking thing they want. even if one plant can't make them fast but can make them in the quality we need, you have 3 more plants doing that and boom you've got an army.
>>28917727 >to me, the biggest issue is the troops, not the equipment. sure there's the draft, but if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out. Considering how Americans enlisted after 9/11, if we see a big war I sincerely doubt you're going to see recruiting offices empty.
Asymmetrical bullshit dragging on for decade is another matter, but there's always the draft if necessary. If it isn't necessary enough to institute the draft and the need is that great we shouldn't be there in the first place.
Literally enough spare airplanes to completly overwhelm any IADS in the world and keep on trucking without using any currently Active Aircraft. Also >expecting planes till in development or just very recently finished procurement stage to have a large supply of boneyard spares.
>>28917770 >oh woops, must have insulted the pog that spent all his time inventorying shit during the past 15 years aaaaaand the simple fact that he might be fundamentally and completely wrong just never enters his tiny little mind.
>>28917650 >what mines will deliver the raw materials to the mills? >>28917714 >Any number of mines in the continental US
I'll just leave this here: Iron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_mining_in_the_United_States >Iron mining in the United States produced 15.5 million metric tons of iron ore in 2014, worth US$5.1 billion. Iron ore was the third-highest-value metal mined in the United States, after gold and copper. Iron ore was mined from nine active mines and three reclamation operations in Michigan, Minnesota, and Utah.
Coal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_mines_in_the_United_States Only 3 dozen active of those. Oh noes.
>>28917859 Dunno about those, but that comparison looks pretty bad for the USN. Over 7,000 commissioned ships in 1945. Not even 300 now.
And I think Moobs is a moron, just to be clear.
The comparison is difficult because while there were certainly more back then, modern systems cover so much more ground, are so much more lethal and capable and can do such a wide range of missions that it's hard to really say in an absolute measure of strength.
As far as relative strength compared to the rest of the world? The US is even better off than Post WWII, no question.
>>28917869 >>28917867 The point is trying to make is severely less factories comparatively now to ww2. Hence my counter of vastly lower amounts of personnel and equipment that would not facilitate the need of ww2 numbers out production
>>28917853 you do realize the two reason for reduction in number of mines are that the iron ore market became over saturated (which would pretty quickly and dramatically reverse in a time of war) and because you can extract dramatically more iron ore from one mine nowdays so such numbers are no longer needed
>>28914414 >when they can just bomb them back to the stone age and cut off all sea trade. That would kill thousands if not millions of Chinese civilians in their own country so no, its nuke time. They would literally strung the elite from lampposts if they refused to nuke back. >>28917714 >https://www.steel.org/Making%20Steel/~/media/Files/AISI/Making%20Steel/2010_SteelPlant_NorthAmerica_HypocycloidVersion6.ashx out of all those only a handful probably have the production capacity to build armor steels for example. Not all steels are equal. >Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US. kek. you are living in the early 2000s. Take a quick gander at EEEI publications for examples and you would see an awful lot of Chinese authors from Chinese institutes not less! They've learned, and learned an awfully lot. They are even making their own machines nowadays, most not cutting edge yet but the West(even excluding US) is happy to oblige on that. >Also, this - and that's just automotive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States The days of retrofitting a car manufacturing plant to shit out tanks instead are over. Both tanks and cars have way too much complexities in their production that share nothing in common with each other that it would be much better to just build a new factory from scratch instead. >The US still has an excellent education system suitable for training such labor, and boasts the 4th largest labor force in the world (only if you count the EU as one country - 3rd if not). >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_force high tech labor would mean years of education and experience, no two ways around that.
>>28917921 >out of all those only a handful probably have the production capacity to build armor steels for example. Not all steels are equal. A handful of modern plants pumping out high grade and armor steels is not in any way insignificant. The question is whether it could meet demand, and I bet if the demand was urgent even mild steel plants could retool.
>The days of retrofitting a car manufacturing plant to shit out tanks instead are over. Both tanks and cars have way too much complexities in their production that share nothing in common with each other that it would be much better to just build a new factory from scratch instead. True, again depending on the urgency of demand. But there is no country in the world right now with the US capacity for high tech weapons and weapon platform production. No one else is even close.
>high tech labor would mean years of education and experience, no two ways around that. You ever worked in a high tech plant? I have, up to 8 years ago just out of college. It takes training, yes, but to grunt on the line is not something that takes years and years to learn, and a vastly increased workforce is certainly not out the question for a country on war footing enacting emergency production measures.
>>28915976 nobody can shit out that much sophisticated equipment in 30 years, let alone in time for a major war. Modern jets are actually mass-handcrafted instead of mass-assembled. You basically need a dedicated team of assembly professionals for every phase of assembly alone doing just that. Training more people to expand production is also no joke- you need the best of the best in your nation's pool of technical specialists and even then they would take months at least of apprenticeship and training and years of familiarization to work unsupervised. Fail those standards and you get an awful lot of hundred million dollar planes plummetting from the air before being even operational. Oh I also forgot the extensive tests for each airplane and the biggest elephant of all, training pilots to operate such planes.
>>28917953 >A handful of modern plants pumping out high grade and armor steels is not in any way insignificant. The question is whether it could meet demand, and I bet if the demand was urgent even mild steel plants could retool. http://web.archive.org/web/20060320134139/http://www.intlsteel.com/PDFs/armor.pdf like the car example, you would be better off building new plants instead, and since these are modern facilities specializing in relatively niche item it would take a correspondingly long amount of time to build and setup for operations. >True, again depending on the urgency of demand. But there is no country in the world right now with the US capacity for high tech weapons and weapon platform production. No one else is even close. i hate speaking in absolutes. Sure US is the best when it comes to shitting out sophisticated planes and jets, and aircraft carriers but I doubt you guys come close to the Russians for example in shitting out missiles like sausages. >You ever worked in a high tech plant? I have, up to 8 years ago just out of college. It takes training, yes, but to grunt on the line is not something that takes years and years to learn, and a vastly increased workforce is certainly not out the question for a country on war footing enacting emergency production measures. you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane? Thought so, and when each and every material is important to the war effort especially now that sophisticated equipment takes an exponential amount of effort,expertise and resources to create, maintain and operate you would balk all the more to cut corners.
>>28917966 *oh and the components, always the components. Each component is made by just one or two specialized companies and there are like tens of thousands of them if not millions per jet! Failure to maintain the pace of production across all your suppliers would lead to situations like what the Russians are suffering.
>>28918023 >you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane? Holy shit it's obvious you've never dealt with military aviation maintenance. That's EXACTLY what happens. It's just that there is a qualified person who goes behind said retards to verify all work and ultimately sign off on it.
>>28918023 >I doubt you guys come close to the Russians for example in shitting out missiles like sausages. Considering how complex missiles systems are now and how many S-400 divisions Russia is actually gettting operational, just for instance (152 launchers in the last 9 years, compared to several thousand just one small hop before with the S-300), I would not bet my farm on it. But you may be correct. I'd have to do more research. I don't think there's any doubt overall. There may be shortfalls in certain specific production areas, but overall production is absolutely unmatched.
>you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane? Had just such a kid in the plant I was a manager at after college. He'd started as a Janitor at the company three years before, got upgraded to the line after nine months and when I left he was training to be a QC supervisor after 8 years with the company. Yes, he was bright and a good worker, but I think you vastly overestimate the requirements and bars to advancement in such a plant.
>>28918050 >Holy shit it's obvious you've never dealt with military aviation maintenance. That's EXACTLY what happens. It's just that there is a qualified person who goes behind said retards to verify all work and ultimately sign off on it. never claimed to have but if thats the case then I think I should be the one doing the expletives. always had the impression you have to be really good at what you do at first before even being allowed to set foot inside the production floor, pass a couple of background checks, sign NDAs, the works. Thought only slavs were that lenient, but whaddayunow? >>28918051 >but I think you vastly overestimate the requirements and bars to advancement in such a plant. that maybe so.
>>28918090 How do you expect someone to just take a class and suddenly be a qualified expert without ever getting hands on an aircraft? Everyone's got to start somewhere to include aviation maintainers.
>>28918090 >that maybe so. Well, it's exacting but it ain't rocket science. And even uneducated/"dumb" lower class folks aren't ever quite as stupid as some people believe them to be.
A good paycheck and a solid path to advancement does wonders for nearly all parameters of job performance and the factory floor is no different. For those with the motivation to get somewhere anyway, and you don't want the others anywhere near high-tech line work.
>>28918265 Are you some autist? In conventional war no other nation is as battle ready or as trained as the US. ALSO no one brings as many toys as the US. You're trying to argue who would win between 1000 gorillas vs 5 chimpanzees. This is retarded when you look at the numbers not to mention money spent on training, the fact the US has kept its pilots/troops/navy in perpetual war for the past 15 years so they have experience.
Ask us who could replace their Army between Venzuela and Colombia or something that might make remote sense. X nation vs the US is pants on head because it's asking X nation to destroy. Military many times larger and more advanced than it with no nukes and then win a prolonged battle of production and attrition.
Do you see how retarded this is?
>hey anon with a +20 handicap can you beat Tiger Woods in a round of golf THEN beat him throughout an entire Tour series?
>>28918331 Honestly (and im no aircraft technician, but i've got some insight), if you let a fighter jet sit outside in the desert with little care for more than a month or so, they're generally not going to be airworthy when duty calls, let alone several years.
Would be interesting to see what kind of maintenence is done on them though.
>>28918352 >Would be interesting to see what kind of maintenence is done on them though. A lot, and they are all pretreated to protect the cockpits and any other sensitive gear with coverings and removing sensitive parts for storage or resupply elsewhere, then painted with preservative coating.
They do not fuck around with UV damage, and there's no humidity for rust, all openings are covered against dust. Every aircraft gets checked or serviced regularly, with eyes on it at least once a month.
>>28916480 Its usually on fire. Or its on a humanitarian mission because of a flood/bad weather, but has to stay in dock because it can't sail out in bad weather. Or unavailable because Bhumibols friends need a place to crash. But that doesn't make it less funny yeah
We have over 100 Raptors Over 1000 F15's Over 4,000 F16's Mothballed F14's and several others
Even if someone DID manage to sink ALL of our carriers ( which, I would love for you to explain exactly how anyone would do that considering the massive amount of support / armor that each one has )... Hell, I would like to see someone try to sink just one. We have 3 more next generation carriers being built right now. I am also pretty sure that if a war scenario did arise, we could have those all done, VERY quickly.
>>28917714 >Mountain Pass is reopened, and there are other REE mines which have yet to be exploited in the US.
the reason why they arent exploited is because its not profitable to mine the resources.
>(because its) cheaper to buy raw materials from elsewhere and let China drain their strategic reserve does not mean those magically go away.
no, but the longer the mines stay closed the higher the likelyhood that they will remain closed gets. Also the talent pool of skilled miners arent going to wait around 20 years for a mine to reopen due to profitability. They are going to leave for where the money is and no NEW skilled workers will be trained to work the shuttered mines
The steel mills that are left cant churn out a fraction of what was turned out in WW2 or even during the cold war. If we were to be involved in another "total war" we would have a hard time producing enough raw material to supply a war effort AND meet any semblence of domestic demand
>Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US.
and if its china we go to war with then our machinary over there becomes their machinary. this whole thread is about domestic production and you're talking about tooling we may or may not have on foreign soil
>and that's just automotive
again, it takes a long time to retool a major manufacturer to produce war material and that still doesnt solve the problem of raw materials
>most extensive rail/roads
again just because its enough for right now DOESNT mean its enough war
>>28918407 Your question was >What nation even has 676 extra modern planes to even do poor maintenance on? And my answer is russia. They have more than 3000 planes, and im guessing most of them has sub-par maintenence done at best.
>>28918429 Why don't you read that again and take another shot at it after looking up the number of MODERN jets they have. They have like less than 650 total aircraft in existence if you consider a first gen MIG 29 on par with US counterpart so which no one does. Do you know how many SU-27s they have with upgraded gen 4.5 electronics? Answer: 2
So again I ask: did you read or base your comment on anything more than, "muh Russia" shitpost shitpost?
we dont have the manufacturing base or the access to our own resources or the ability to transport it across the country
posting a bunch of shit about how much we produce with some impressive $$ numbers doesnt mean squat when you're talking about being able to produce enough goods to fight a real conventional war, possibly on multiple fronts.
We simply no longer have the capacity to come anywhere near what we did in world war 2, especially with modern equipment.
as far as WHO we'd have to fight, well Im in agreement that there is no one that could challenge the US, but that's not what is being asked here.
as far as the posts about avionics above Im still reading up on everything that was claimed.
>>28917859 seriously? Do you seriously think that the military has anywhere near the amount of equipment and vehicles it did in WW2, or that we can churn out anywhere near the amount of vehicles, especially considering the much higher complexity of current equipment?
>>28917633 Yea. you're about right, just 10% of the reserves are actually modern battle worthy - the russians have arrived at the same conclusion but they're betting that they vast hordes of outdated, inferior equipment will deal easily with your less then stellar numbers of inferior equipment so they will eliminate long before you get a chance to re-equip with modern one.
>>28918428 >The steel mills that are left cant churn out a fraction of what was turned out in WW2 or even during the cold war. Straight up bullshit, from personal experience. We produce 8 times as much or more for the same footprint of what we did with WWII machines. Part of the reason foundry and mill jobs have gone away has much more to do with how efficient production is now as opposed to total number of plants and foundries.
>>28915976 Speaking of this(Old factories getting renovated during a war)
There is a book called Salvation War: Armageddon, which focuses on the armies of Hell coming up to rule Eartu and the entirety of the Human race coming together to collectively fucking their shit up. The author did a great job get all the specifics right. Gave me a huge HFY boner.
This is part 1, you can find the other chapters in the forum.
>"Mister President. So far, more than two dozen of these invaders, Baldricks the Brits call them, have been killed around the world. The latest was off Tokyo where a monster similar to the one killed by HMS Astute came ashore. It was engaged by the Japanese Ground Self Defense Forces and destroyed. According to the Japanese Ambassador, all that time spent shooting at Godzilla finally paid off.” A laugh ran around the room, partly a release of nervous tension but mostly in appreciation of the unexpected sense of humor shown by Ambassador Nishamura. “Most of the Far Eastern countries are coming on board pretty quickly. China, of course, has taken an early stand. The People’s Liberation Army, Army Air Force and Army Navy have all gone to full alert. Europe's following suit."
>“It did indeed. 99 in favor, one against, you can guess who that was. Effective as of 1800 Washington Time, the United States of America has formally declared war on Hell. Unconditional declaration, first time we’ve had one of those for decades. We’ve issued a conditional ultimatum to Heaven as well. Unless they open the gates and surrender those who closed them for trial within 72 hours, a state of war will exist there as well. Civilian mobilization bill is through, reserves mobilization bill is through, first issue of war bonds will be released tomorrow."
>"That morning, The Star Press headlines read, “Look out, Baldricks! Here comes Muncie!” That day, the Mayor's office received eight more phone calls from corporations, and the first semis and trains started to roll into the city as construction equipment started to move away from the university – which had agreed to put its new dorm on hold for the time being to aid in the war effort – and toward the old, broken-down factories. Overnight, the city had been transformed.
>And it wasn't alone. All across the eastern Midwest, the rust belt was being de-oxidized. Surveyors were entering old factories, cleaning companies entering and sweeping up dust, weeds being cleared and broken windows replaced. Lights that hadn't shone for decades were being turned on and replaced; cars were parking in lots that were more grass than gravel and hadn't been touched by tires for thirty years. More and more trains were rolling out of yards and thundering down the immense but ailing network of tracks connecting American cities to each other, and tractor-trailer semis were moving down the highways in huge fleets, carrying piping and wires and tools and other implements of the new war economy."
>>28918581 >Im comparing raw materials production and transport Yet you fail to address the points that the US produces more iron ore and finished steel than after WWII, plus >>28917714 The US still has the most extensive rail network in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size
Same with roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_road_network_size
And the most Panamax ports in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Panamax_ports#United_States_of_America
Tell me, does it hurt when your narrative is caught out for being so completely divorced from the facts that you have to pay reality alimony?
>>28917757 Wait a minute here, are you that cretin to believe you can spotweld a tank with robots used to spotweld Bubba's truck? Do you really believe US still has the industrial capability to mass churn modern electronics that are immensely more complicated than what you'll find in the even more tricked out limo?
>>28918626 >We produce 8 times as much or more for the same footprint of what we did with WWII
if we had 10 sq feet of production "footprint" in WW2 and produced at a 1lb to 1ft ratio then we were producing 10lbs of steel, and we have .5 sq feet footprint now than we can ,according to your estimation, produce 4lbs of steel. its not how much more efficient we are but the size of the foot print
the mills arent just closed, they've been turned into malls.
>>28918821 >do you think Im not going to notice little shit like this? So your argument is that our current PEACETIME production should match our maximum WWII WAR ECONOMY output? How fucking stupid are you?
>also, as mentioned earlier, just because we have the biggest doesnt mean its enough Yeah? Who decides what's enough? Our lord and savior and the only voice in the wilderness showing us the way, Moobs, amirite?
>>28918821 >also, as mentioned earlier, just because we have the biggest doesnt mean its enough
so, to sum up: >WAAAAAAAAH WE DON'T HAVE ANY OF THIS SHIT >>28917650 Actually, we have all of this shit. Here are the facts and sources. >>28917714 >WAAAAAAAAAAH EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE A TON OF THIS SHIT IT ISN'T ENOUGH
>>28918869 >my argument is that we couldnt reach WW2 levels even if we needed to. Yet you've offered no sources to support this, no actual facts, only dire prognostications and warnings. Meanwhile, in the real world: >>28917714
>>28917853 Uh in the US, Coal mining peaked in 2008 and copper peaked in the early 2000s; both were double the production of the mid 40s and are still currently much higher than then.
Gold mines closed during WWII.
Iron ore admittedly is down 40% but production of steel is similar. But then things like aluminium production is 5 times larger than in WWII so advanced alloys and other metals are also produced in larger quantities.
>>28915137 It's power system was upgraded in the 80's m8, the entire series of ship was overhauled to handle computer systems of the time. Only thing she needs is current computers to fire todays missiles.
>>28911728 There is a lot of US military hardware semi mothballed at the reserve level for all the services. Sometime I think the reserves is just the biggest garage in the world. Down the road from me is a reserve armory with dozens of armored vehicles operational but mostly stationary. There are army depots with tremendous amounts of supplies. If it went to war time footing it would be just what they did during desert shield/storm. Look up those production figures if you want to see some amazing production speeds. As a additional note my father at the time was at Red River Army Depot. Now the place is on a reduced operational level and probably has "only" enough supplies for months of operations. Logistics is probably the biggest issue. It has been proven the US has a very rapid production capability even for advanced hardware.
>>28919209 >whereas we produced what we needed for a war effort, we now only produce what we need commercially. An economy that literally rationed and took from it's citizens damn near every raw material possible to point that girls were making dresses out of flour bags is being compared to our current economy.
And yet the current economy is fucking smashing capabilities compared to the full war economy. So again, whats your fucking point? Without even TRYING we are out producing ourselves comparatively.
>>28918887 further the US is a net importer of steel, by about 20 million metric tons, so we would have to have the ability to increase capacity by 25% just to be self sufficient, without a war effort.
Im thinking that some of the numbers on steel might be fudged to include production overseas by US corporation owned plants
>>28919241 yeah and its hard to calculate what that means in real world numbers.
if you wholely subtract the amount of raw materials used in the entertainment, automotive and textile industries you can produce what might be closer to a number of what the current generation would lack in new material.
>>28919409 >if you wholely subtract the amount of raw materials used in the entertainment, automotive and textile industries you can produce Yet in such a war scenario that we lose every reserve unit we have on top of every frontline unit we have that "Somehow" doesn't involve a mass nuclear strike (IE physically fucking impossible short of entire world turning against us) do you really think laws wouldn't be passed to ration/confiscate the fuck out of resources? You know exactly like what happened the last couple times we were in a major world wide conflict.
>>28919609 fuck you. Seriously go fuck yourself. Your the only retard in this only fucking thread who's been pushing "but we produce less than blah" and consistantly gotten your shit pushed in the entire time and now your throwing the "but i didn't ask it" flag? Fuck you. Let the thread die, you've embarrassed yourself fucking enough.
We have enough steel in this country to rebuild it half again over. The problem is that it's tied up in scrap and scrap from the US is more expensive than scrap from India or some other monkey paradise.
Were a serious war to break out tomorrow, we'd run on our active forces first, reserves second and newly minted stuff third. Would it be tough and expensive and require a huge effort on the part of the American people? Yes. Which is why it's called "War" and not "Super Happy Fun Kiddie Hour".
People were saying the same shit in the late 1930s. Right before we stomped the guts out of Japan and Germany simultaneously.
>>28917617 >you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine? This is exactly what Ukranians doing right now. Only their planes are in much worse conditions. And tanks. And BTRs. And APCs.
>>28917727 >if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out.
Take off the nostalgia glasses for a moment and think about it. The one big difference between our army back then and our army now is it's an all volunteer force. Sure it's peacetime now, and it's getting choked with pussies both literal and figurative who don't want to fight, and who joined up possibly BECAUSE it was peacetime just to have a stable job. On the flip side, because of the all volunteer thing, there isn't going to be the same problem with "conscientious objectors" we have when we use a draft. Are there going to be more pussies than in the past if we start a draft? Yeah, probably. Hopefully they get weeded out quickly or put where they can't fuck anyone else up, like Antarctica or something.
>>28925095 >3,000+ manning requirements >lowest morale in the fleet >highest parts and maintenance costs in the fleet >dubious at best combat/mission capabilities compared to Ticos at the cost of having to build entire surface escort groups around them
I love the Iowas, they're cool as fuck. But they were just not that awesome as modern refitted warships in the 1980's for the required resources, and it is without a doubt potato tier retarded to seriously consider bringing them back into service now.
>>28926760 It was a very, very labor intensive ship to work on with very few of the creature comforts of the modern navy and, due to outdated engineering systems, much higher than average required maintenance tasks coupled with most of those tasks requiring both specialized training (nothing else in the USN at that point used conventional fired water tube boilers, for instance) and far more time to complete due to lack of streamlined design geared toward ease of maintenance. They were a mess compared to modern machinery.
Morale was a constant issue on the Iowas. One of the highest crew rotation rates on any ship class in the fleet towards the end.
>>28926817 >Better pay for that right and follow a ton of rules or your a poacher. But, Anon, the hunting/harvesting of wildlife is not a constitutionally protected right.
The only people that have massive problems with this are generally the fucking idiots that don't understand the difference between a right and a regulated privilege, must less the basic concept that their rights must needs end where the rights of others begin (and the fact that this is not always absolutely clear, hence the legal system).
>>28911832 >>28916360 >>28918399 >In order for a carrier to deploy, it must embark one of ten Carrier Air Wings (CVW).[Note 3] The carriers can accommodate a maximum of 130 F/A-18 Hornets or 85–90 aircraft of different types, but current numbers are typically 64 aircraft. Although the air wings are integrated with the operation of the carriers they are deployed to, they are nevertheless regarded as a separate entity. As well as the aircrew, the air wings are also made up of support personnel involved in roles including maintenance, aircraft and ordnance handling and emergency procedures. Each person on the flight deck wears color-coded clothing to make his role easily identifiable.
A typical carrier air wing can include 12–14 F/A-18E or F Super Hornets as strike fighters; two squadrons of 10–12 F/A-18C Hornets, with one of these often provided by the U.S. Marine Corps (VMFA), also as strike fighters; 4–6 EA-6B Prowlers or EA-18G Growlers for electronic warfare; 4–6 E-2C or D Hawkeyes for airborne early warning (AEW), C-2 Greyhounds used for logistics (to be replaced by MV-22 Ospreys); and a Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron of 6–8 SH-60F and HH-60H Seahawks. Aircraft that have previously operated from Nimitz-class carriers include F-4 Phantoms, RA-5C Vigilantes, RF-8G Crusaders, F-14 Tomcats, S-3 Vikings, A-7 Corsair II and A-6E Intruder aircraft.
130 NIGGA. They just don't usually with that configuration.
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