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Do western militaries have a rapid replacement...
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Do western militaries have a rapid replacement system if things get destroyed?

What if 30 MBTs get destroyed in a single engagement or 10 fighters get shot down simultaneously?
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>>28911728
remember pearl harbor?

that absolutely devastating attack that nearly crippled the American fleet back in WW2.

the vast majority of those ships were back in functioning condition and ready to sail within a month.

The US carries more than 20 fighter jets on each carrier and still has more waiting on the main land. numbers are unquestionably one of the US military's greatest strengths.

now Europe on the other hand...
yeah that might be damaging to the capabilities of an individual nation.
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>>28911728
Ever see pics of The Boneyard in AZ?

All of those aircraft can be made airworthy in weeks. They have similar areas with Abrams and Bradley hulls.
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We have a ton of planes in storage. http://www.desertusa.com/arizona-desert/airplane-graveyards.html
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>>28911728
The US Army has over 5,500 Abrams. It only actually uses about 1,100 of them.
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>>28911851
Aren't most of the Abrams hulls just sitting around waiting to be refitted from A1 equipment to A2 or eventually A3 variants?
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>>28911728

>Do western militaries

Stop.

Yes, we have the resources and manpower to police you all.

Think of WW2 but on crack now that technology has advanced.

Suck on my FREEDOM.
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>>28911865
There's also the mothballed fleet. Dozens of ships just waiting to get a fresh coat of paint and sent back into action.
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>>28911895
Yeah, but if in a pinch I bet the Ay would just pump those bad boys out.
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>>28911907
lol, how's that whole war on terror going then, you neo-realist fuck.

no seriously, no matter how many B-52's you can crank out, it still doesn't allow you to solve complex geopolitical issues that require other nation states to cede autonomy to your demands.

and other words, the anarchic nature of international relations tells me you're a dumbass.

pic very much related
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>>28911832
>that absolutely devastating attack that nearly crippled the American fleet back in WW2.
Uh no, it was a small time raid by 300 single-engine bombers that was lucky to permanently sink 2 battleships.
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>>28911913
>USS IOWA is part of the fleet
>mfw its reactivated and refit to kill once again
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>>28911895
>>28911851
Yeah Sierra and Anniston have thousands, not counting the two thousand currently deployed at unit bases or in forward staging depots.
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>>28911728
This is the thread I have been wanting for a very long time.

Personally speaking, I think if the West were involved in a long term conventional conflict you would see one of two things happen, but most likely a hybrid of both.

The heavy hitting stuff we have today, the M1 Abrams and F-22s, take quite some time to manufacture.

I could see these things being augmented or outright replaced by drones... But drones have a lot of electronic systems for are kind of intensive to properly utilize in massive quantity.

I think that there could most likely be a technical regression in capabilities. Monkey models that are good enough, put into service to augment more technologically intensive systems.

I remember reading somewhere that an M1 takes about two weeks to manufacture. It would make sense to me that they would cut corners and create models of existing systems that takes less time to build.

There's the possibility of things like the Stingray light tank being built instead of skimping on the good stuff.

The hybrid option is lots of Monkey models augmenting a small number of advanced drones and manned equipment.
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>>28912883
The war on terror is mainly a socio-political slapfight.

The OP's question is whether the west has the industrial capacity to sustain total war overt the long term.

The answer to the OP's question is, "yes".

It's not like ISIS is shooting down planes faster than the US can build them.
>>
We could never do WWII again.

Everything is too specialized now. In WWII we had GM, AM, Willys, Ford, and Chrysler making tank engines, but now they wouldn't be able to make the turbines we put in an Abrams.
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>>28913571
This. If the push came to shove, the west would spam monkey models to buy time and blunt the enemy's offense for however long it took to field the game-changers.
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>>28913617
They wouldn't be making Abrams turbines.
>>
Stalemate.


Which, in case you're wondering, is why the Soviets never throw anything out.

In the case of widespread Warsaw Pact / NATO conflict it was generally understood that there would be a frantic period of irreplaceable losses and attrition, followed by a lull as modern equipment from each side is exhausted.

Then, either a negotiation period, or a period of rapid mobilization and rearmament with previous generation technology.

This is why the mothball fleet and the airframes at the boneyard were always retained.
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>>28913751
this plus the econimic strain.

Like during the mid 80's one dude calculated it and found that it would be so monumentally expensive and destructive hostility wouldn't last longer than 6 months before both sides economies ground to a halt under the strain.
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>>28911832
I think most European countries don't even have the ability to make their own planes. Once their fleet is destroyed on the ground by a pre emptive strike, they're fucked.
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>>28914030
Are you talking about the Falkland's War?
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>>28911728
>What if 30 MBTs get destroyed in a single engagement

Are you really so retarded as to think that this is an unsustainable loss?
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>>28913571
you do realize the army has a massive fleet of tanks just... sitting in the desert, right?
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>>28912883
Look who just leaned about international relations theory in his world politics class yesterday.
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>>28913751
All of this is assuming any conceivable conventional conflict wouldn't be decided inside 6 weeks just on air and naval power. The occupation/asymmetrical bullshit is another matter, and it's not like NATO is EVER going to perform a land invasion against China, when they can just bomb them back to the stone age and cut off all sea trade.
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>>28911832

pearl harbor logistically speaking was not a really big deal.
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>>28911913
They don't, anymore. They were leaking lead and polluting the waters they were in, so the states sued and got the Navy to haul them out and scrap them. Considering the ships that were actually in the reserve fleets, and the fact that a tiny percentage of them were ever reactivated, it was no big loss.

>>28913418
>Iowa
They struck her like 6-8 years ago, bro. They never repaired her turret anyways, and they literally don't have the tooling to build her new guns anymore. This is discounting the metal bars the Navy welded into the breeches of New Jersey's and Missouri's guns.
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>>28912883
i don't think you used enough buzzwords kiddo
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>>28911832
The reason pearl harbor didn't fuck us is that we HAPPENED to already be building a bunch of new ships at the time.
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>>28914671
And because, you know, they sunk the ships in a harbor. They only put Utah, Oklahoma, and Arizona permanently out of action, and even then we just said "fuck it" on the Okie and Utah instead of actually returning them to service.
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>>28912883
As the size of the explosion increases, the number of social situations it's incapable of resolving decreases proportionally.
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>>28914817
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>>28914488
>They never repaired her turret anyways, and they literally don't have the tooling to build her new guns anymore.

What is this, the 50's? We have cruise missles now and I bet an Iowa hull can be converted to hold a metric fuck you ton of them.
>>
All the f22 tooling and fixtures are in storage.


In an emergency... We could tool up for production in 12 months
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>>28911907
>can't even control iraq and afghanistan
>think the US can control the world through military force alone

typical americlap logic

Ron Paul save us
>>
>>28914858
...why? What would you gain in spending the time and effort yanking out the main guns of a 70 year old riveted-construction ship to put missiles in some jury-rigged mounting instead of just building a ship specifically for them? The entire fucking POINT of the Iowas is their offshore fire support capability; they're utterly obsolete in every other manner. And considering how many amphibious invasions we've done in the past 50 years, we can't justify keeping around ships that require crews that number in the thousands for that alone, especially since they use tech that no other ship does.

That's a factor a lot of people forget: the engines and power grid in the Iowas are 70 fucking years old. They are utterly unique at this stage; if you're going to crew them they need people trained on their equipment and their equipment alone; it's not going to be applicable on any other ship.
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>>28915137
>two semicolons in the same sentence
great job me
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>>28915151
Sometimes you need a whole colon and the only way you can get it is stitching two partial colons together. We forgive you, anon. Everyone needs a working shitpipe.
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>>28914868
>We could tool up for production in 12 months

and someone would be paying 3000% for those parts.
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>>28915137

ITS A FUCKING BATTLESHIP M8

FUCK YUO
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>>28911913
I'm just waiting for our first rail gun battleship to be the USS Constitution
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>>28915414
the USS Constitution is still in service m8
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>>28914868
tooling and fixtures for F-22 are DESTROYED unfortunately
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>>28914266
Take a look at tank production numbers from the last great war and tell me that there are sixty thousand Abrams and Pattons just wishing a nigga would.
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>>28914871

>americlap

Non-American

>Ron Paul save us

Who's us? Why do you want a retired American politician to save us/you
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>>28915739
>he thinks only a non-american would call someone a retarded americlap

us is everyone not retarded like you and the other americlaps.

Ron Paul has the answers but americlaps are too stupid to listen.
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>>28915435
The one with sails, or the one thats nuclear powered?

A railgun would be cool on either one.
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>>28915765

Yeah, only a non-american should say that.

You're just a dumb shit who uses memes incorrectly.
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>>28915767
you're thinking of the Constellation
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>>28911728
>What if 30 MBTs get destroyed in a single engagement or 10 fighters get shot down simultaneously?
Same as always. They take them from reserve. Size of reserve depends from country.
>>28911832
>remember pearl harbor?
Remember times, when you could build plane with small tools only? Well, they are gone.
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>>28912915
>300 single-engine bombers
>small

You don't know how air force's work, do you?
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>>28915409
YOU'RE LITERALLY REMOVING EVERYTHING THAT MAKES IT A BATTLESHIP

YOU KNOW WHAT A BATTLESHIP WITHOUT GUNS IS? A FUCKING KIROV

WHAT ARE YOU, SOME KIND OF COMMIE FAGGOT?
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>>28911728

>MFW the Airforce comissions 10,000 F-22s in response to a major war
>Willow Run transforms from the half-dead shed it is today into an industrial powerhouse over the course of a week
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>>28915686

They have plants in Detroit and Texas /itching/ to produce a gorrilaton of tonks to make the T-55's production numbers seem quaint; it's the fact that we have no real use for that amount of tanks that's staved them mostly, with what we're currently producing done in order to keep them from going out of buisness.
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>>28911832
>The US carries more than 20 fighter jets on each carrier
Wow that's so many anon.
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>>28911851
>Ever see pics of The Boneyard in AZ?

Anyone on /k/ who ever finds themselves anywhere near Tucson needs to go and do the tour of that boneyard. It's fucking awesome.

Titan missile museum, also.

>All of those aircraft can be made airworthy in weeks.

A few aircraft can be made airworthy in weeks but not, say, two dozen fighters. There's only so much engineering manpower to go around.
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>>28912883
Those 'complex geopolitical issues' could be solved very easily with B52s. Would it be ethical? No. Would it be clean? Depends on your definition of clean.
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>>28916360
I always find it funny that Thailand has a carrier.
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>>28912883
I think you're forgetting the fundamentals of 'bigger army diplomacy'.
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>>28914871
I contest this statement. We didn't control iraq and afganistan because we were trying to win hearts and minds and 'build relationships' and be surgical and clean and all that stupid shit. If we had gone in with the intention of beating the population into bloody submission like we did to japan then we would have done great because that's what militaries are good at, they are bad at establishing democracy and winning hearts and minds.
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>>28916451
This entirely, We can solve them easily with B52s, but people probably wouldnt have the stomach for it
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>>28915976
Nah. The thing is we don't have the intelligent trained people to deliver on an order like that. We are using 90-100% of the well trained machinists and fabricators we have. If Northrop or whoever had to quadruple its work force overnight it just couldn't. It would be training people for 6 months and quality would probably be shit for a year.
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>>28916563
Oh yes we can.
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>>28916563
you don't realize how many contractors are unemployed.
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>>28916584
No we couldn't
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>>28914671
>>28914743

>missing the fact the whole target objective was destroying the carriers

>carriers that were not present at the time due to a training exercise.
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>>28916563
You vastly underestimate how many layoff's happened during first and second government shutdown of contractors.

Also if shit was really truly to go down I could see even more chopping down of assembly line workage and hiring unskilled people to do smaller tasking to alleviate the full time workers. QA could be enlarged and more spot checks but overall it'll work.
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>>28916507
>they are bad at establishing democracy and winning hearts and minds

The fact this has never once been done by any state, anywhere, at any time in history has escaped the smartest men in the room in Washington DC.
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The US military literally has nothing stockpiled besides ammunition. If for some reason a stryker battalion or fighter wing was annihilated, it would take literally a decade to recover those losses. Modern equipment cannot be mothballed and called back into service whenever, they are sensitive devices that require PMCS and regular diagnostics
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>>28916563

It's not just the contractors. It's the whole supply chain.

We're not talking about building P-51s here, we're talking about a modern jet fighter full of exotic electronics built from components that come from all over the world, mostly Asia.

Even if you had infinite skilled machinists and tooling available, you simply couldn't obtain all the parts and materials you'd need to build something like an F-22 in WW2-like, total war conditions.
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>>28917223
>>28916563
Yeah these guys get it.

It takes literally a decade for a new ANYTHING to be fielded, and it's not because the military pays slowly, it's because Lockheed and Boeing don't have enough manufacturing power to create them quickly and consistently. it's not WWII where there are millions of laborers working off war bonds to load ammo and do simple machinist tasks, just making a functional and up to spec MBT takes literally years
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>>28917223
>>28917243
You both realize there are literal stock piles of this shit right? Boeing/Lockheed arn't the ones who fix most of the shit on the planes unless its a serious issue or going through Depot level maint.

Most equipment/systems are fixed by their respective branch's. For the Navy all avionics go through AIMD/FRC and for Marine corp its MALS. These things are all over the world and have just giant warehouses of shit. I can't tell you how many times i've ordered a part and recieved one that was RFI'd in the 80/90's.

>>28917217
Please read the thread, it has been pointed out multiple times that we do literally have this shit sitting around waiting to be activated. AMARG is the big one for aviation and I've had to go down there to retrieve P-3 parts before for use on active birds. Their shit's in Pres I/II/III status with most being in III and having all electronics/non structual components removed and put into supply system while planes themselves have all oil/fuel/hyd emptied and filled with longevity CPC's. There is an entire Air Force command dedicated to just the preservation of these planes and general upkeep while in pres.
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>>28911832
>the vast majority of those ships were back in functioning condition and ready to sail within a month.

To be fair they sank in a shallow port. If they had been warned of imminent attack and sailed out of the port any sunk ships would have been immensly harder to recover.
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>>28911728
Its irrelevant for the Us because in a protracted shooting war, either everything gets fucked or there will be negligable American losses due to inherently superior equipment and tactics.
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>>28916879
> one bitches about incapability
> two shows evidence of capability
> one still in denial
Got your tinfoil hat on, bud?
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>>28911832
Ive posted this before and Ill post it again and again until people get the fucking picture.

>coal mines- closed, skilled miners gone
>coke ovens- lol, what are those?
>railroads- gone, turned into bike trails
>steel mills- see "Allentown" by billy joel
>heavy manufacturing- see Detroit

Our military infrastructure and weapons have gotten vastly more complicated and the logistics chain is impossibly long while we've simultaneously shuttered, torn down, and bulldozed the heavy industry that could support an all out war effort.

while some manufacturing has gotten more efficient, the efficiency hasn't, can't, and wouldn't be able to make up for the lack of industrial infrastructure if we had to go all out.

and the problem isnt just that we tore down our steel mills/plants/mining ops etc., the problem is that the skilled laborers that knew how do all that shit are either retired or dead
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>>28914848
>As the size of the explosion increases, the number of social situations it's incapable of resolving decreases proportionally.
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>>28917300

That's all well and good when it comes to sustaining existing equipment, for a while at least until you start running of shit. It doesn't help you at all when it comes time to build a whole bunch of brand new aircraft.
>>
from what I understand, most branches have a fuckton of older shit just sitting around ready-ish for combat (M60A3s, A6 Intruders, shit like that)
as for actively replacing whats destroyed, no fucking clue
>>28917549
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." -Robert Opperheimer
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>>28915483
Sure thing pal.
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>>28915137

Because it's fucking cool
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>>28917589
>wanting to desecrate an Iowa
kill yourself.
now if you left the main battery but added better FCS and shit like they did for desert storm, I'm pretty onboard.
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>>28917508
>>28917551
That all would matter more if we didn't already have a massive existing stock of end product.

Jan 2016 Inventory of AMARG

A10 - 123
AC130 - 6
AH-1 - 22
F4 - 159
F14 - 8
F15 - 166
F16 - 694
F18 - 105

So yeah we have pretty large slot to pull replacements from either in terms of parts to air frame sections.

If we are losing assets at such a massive rate that we need to suddenly build new ones then Nukes are probably already going to be flying and it's a moot point anyways. We could literally QF modify most of the already built boneyard planes slap AMRAAMS/HARMS on them and overwhelm pretty much any AIDS in the world. Without a single loss of life on our side.
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>>28917602
*meant IADS
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>>28917597
>not wanting to make it a trans-seaxual pansexual non binary homo boat

Get with the times sailor
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>>28917602
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
yeah, if we get in a conflict that bad it's gonna be ww3 and then we're all fucked.
I really wish we kept around some old M60A3s or some shit just in case, or even kept the Iowas on the list of shit that can pulled back to service
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>>28915885
The whole reserve fleet thing is a farce.

you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine?

fuck, many of those planes are there because they have a billion hours on the airframe and arent safe to fly and they're there for spare parts on legacy planes.

We dont even have the computers to calibrate the Avionics anymore. We cant run the programs on new computers. We dont manufacture much of the ammo that the guns in many older planes use, and modern missiles arent all going to be backwards compatible.

The planes and tanks in the reserve fleet are not front line and crews would have to be trained in the older tech using archaic equipment
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>>28917617
so you're saying that when we get in a big motherfucker of a conflict with NK or some shit, and lose a bunch of aircraft, we're fucked? and that the whole boasting of "biggest ready military" in the world is kinda bullshit?
well fuck.
I'm sure at least 10% of our reserve shit is viable, though.
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>>28915976
where we gonna get the rare earths for the electronics?

what mines will deliver the raw materials to the mills?

what steel mills and forges are going to produce the specialty metals?

where are the fab plants that can make the parts?

where is the transportation infrastructure that bring all these things together?

where is the massive skilled labor pool to draw workers that are certified to weld aircraft parts and have the degrees and clearances to install sensitive electronics?

this isnt 1945, we cant just send is some dyke with a riveting gun and a ball peen hammer and churn out B-24s
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>>28917508
>>28917617
Well, you're just a big old ray of man-tittied keyboard warrior sunshine, ain't ya?

Here's a hint - just because the only job you can get is at McDonalds, doesn't mean there aren't other people who know what the fuck they're doing.

This bullshit about the preservation status of the AMARG is beyond stupid.
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>>28917650
>where is the massive skilled labor pool to draw workers that are certified to weld aircraft parts and have the degrees and clearances to install sensitive electronics?

You know that Boeing, General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin between them represent the largest capacity for military production on the planet.
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>>28915998
>They have plants in Detroit and Texas

HAD.

They HAD plants.

you think your average gm plant can just start churning out DU armor?
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>>28917650
shit like this is why I wish we still had a mechanical reserve. old M48s and deuces and shit that an EMP can't fuck over. simple as fuck to maintain and build and cheap as shit.
but no, we gotta have this electronic shit.
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>>28916507
15 year old, thanks for chiming in.
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>>28917617
>fuck, many of those planes are there because they have a billion hours on the airframe and arent safe to fly and they're there for spare parts on legacy planes.
The ones that are literally there to be stripped and parted out. It's called REDSTRIPE program also known as HONA in navy. The main airframe may be passed it's flight hours but elevators, ailerons, rudders, etc can be inspected and re-introduced to supply.

>you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine?
The tires get regularly checked by the inspection crews, most engines are completely removed and added to the supply pool, and actually yes they have been cycling planes in and out of the boneyard quite often. All the centennial birds for 100th year of Aviation came from the boneyard and were unpressed then given to Squadrons. Pic related is one of those birds and one of the best birds I've ever worked on for how clean and efficient the thing was cuz it was taken care of instead of having the shit flown out of it like most of our planes.

>We dont even have the computers to calibrate the Avionics anymore. We cant run the programs on new computers.
See again my point about FRC/AIMD. Their job in the military is literally to calibrate avionics. Fucking systems on P-3C's are same as they were in 1970 on most planes. Hell ALR-81 says "BTFR" when you turn it on which stands for "Beat the Fucking Russians".

>The planes and tanks in the reserve fleet are not front line and crews would have to be trained in the older tech using archaic equipment
Your acting like most of these havn't been used in a while. Yet F-4's up until very recently were still used in Target/Agressor role. Hell S-3's have been phased out for years now and yet VX-30 just last month got rid of it's last S-3's.
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>>28917617
>The whole reserve fleet thing is a farce.

And instantly you've given away that you don't know a fucking thing and all your critiques are speculations.
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>>28916584
a picture of literally one manufacturing plant that makes sheet metal parts for lincoln continentals is not proof of being able churn out fighter planes.

try harder faggot
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>>28917674
what is that plane? it looks like some kind of smaller C-130, love me some turboprops.
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>>28917666
>you think your average gm plant can just start churning out DU armor?

No, because DU is made at one of the US's many Gaseous Diffusion Plants.
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>>28917694
P-3
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>>28917152
>You vastly underestimate how many layoff's happened during first and second government shutdown of contractors.

being a "government contractor" doesnt give you the skills to assemble missiles and modern airplanes. You're talking about training people to do a specific task which is part of an even more specific task.

you're literally so ignorant of the skill level required that you can't grasp the concept.
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>>28912883
The "I'm in my first year of my International Relations Major at a community college" post.
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>>28917650
>where we gonna get the rare earths for the electronics?
Mountain Pass is reopened, and there are other REE mines which have yet to be exploited in the US.

>what mines will deliver the raw materials to the mills?
Any number of mines in the continental US, Alaska and allies' territory. Just because it got cheaper to buy raw materials from elsewhere and let China drain their strategic reserve does not mean those magically go away.

>what steel mills and forges are going to produce the specialty metals?
https://www.steel.org/Making%20Steel/~/media/Files/AISI/Making%20Steel/2010_SteelPlant_NorthAmerica_HypocycloidVersion6.ashx

>where are the fab plants that can make the parts?
Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US.

Also, this - and that's just automotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States

>where is the transportation infrastructure that bring all these things together?
The US still has the most extensive rail network in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size

Same with roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_road_network_size

And the most Panamax ports in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Panamax_ports#United_States_of_America

>where is the massive skilled labor pool to draw workers that are certified to weld aircraft parts and have the degrees and clearances to install sensitive electronics?
The US still has an excellent education system suitable for training such labor, and boasts the 4th largest labor force in the world (only if you count the EU as one country - 3rd if not).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_force
>>
>>28917650
>>28917714
>this isnt 1945, we cant just send is some dyke with a riveting gun and a ball peen hammer and churn out B-24s
No, it ain't 1945, but that doesn't mean you know what the fuck you're talking about.
>>
>>28917714
Careful, he might be allergic to facts
>>
>>28917666
>They HAD plants.
Says who? They're still turning out several things made of DU in the US.
>>
>>28912883
why win hearts and minds when you can splatter them all over the sand?
>>28917714
to me, the biggest issue is the troops, not the equipment. sure there's the draft, but if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out.
>>
>>28917300
>I can't tell you how many times i've ordered a part and recieved one that was RFI'd in the 80/90

Oh yeah? What type of part? a pipe? a wing?

or have you been ordering buckets of RAM coating for the F-35 from 1986?
>>
>>28917508
>>28917617
>>28917650
>>28917709
>>28917690
Hey Moobs - why are you so fucking worthless and ill informed? Is there anything you actually know something about?
>>
No. You can't mass produce something of modern complexity easily. That's why the Sprey line of thinking is better for weapons made for an attrition war.
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>>28911728
Speaking for the US. We have more planes/tanks/ships mothballed than the next #2-10 largest militaries combined. We also have enormous amounts of planes/ships/tanks deployed already.

So the question is outside of some massive nuclear strike, in which case we'd reciprocate, who is going to destroy our current weapons?

Meteor? Aliens?

Are you talking about Europe? We have more military planes in Germany on US airbases than the rest of the EU. US Airforce Europe is the largest European Air Force.

Hope some of this puts things in perspective.
>>
>>28917300
>I've had to go down there to retrieve P-3 parts

yeah, P3s have been in service since the fucking 1960s so they're probably going to have a lot of parts laying around.

F-22s? F-35s? yeah not so much
>>
>>28917730
>hey tripfag, why do you talk unadulterated bullshit?
Gee, I don't know.
>>
>>28917740
>can't mass produce something of modern complexity easy
what are cars you dumb fuck.
also, the military complex of contractors and shit can make just about any fucking thing they want. even if one plant can't make them fast but can make them in the quality we need, you have 3 more plants doing that and boom you've got an army.
>>
>>28917727
>to me, the biggest issue is the troops, not the equipment. sure there's the draft, but if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out.
Considering how Americans enlisted after 9/11, if we see a big war I sincerely doubt you're going to see recruiting offices empty.

Asymmetrical bullshit dragging on for decade is another matter, but there's always the draft if necessary. If it isn't necessary enough to institute the draft and the need is that great we shouldn't be there in the first place.
>>
>>28917729
Circuit Relay Cards, POS Relay Cards, ARN-84 components, VOR components, ARCU components, APS-115, APS-115 Components, APN-194, RAWS (fuck this system), etc, can go on for a while.

>>28917742
See >>28917602

Literally enough spare airplanes to completly overwhelm any IADS in the world and keep on trucking without using any currently Active Aircraft.
Also
>expecting planes till in development or just very recently finished procurement stage to have a large supply of boneyard spares.

And with this post I am heading to the gym.
>>
>>28917675
>>28917717
oh woops, must have insulted the pog that spent all his time inventorying shit during the past 15 years
>>
>>28917729
>Oh yeah? What type of part? a pipe? a wing?
Oh, just hydrolic valves, avionics componets, cockpit control componets, engines, etc etc.

>or have you been ordering buckets of RAM coating for the F-35 from 1986?
You don't even have a fucking clue how RAM is applied to the F-35, do you?
>>
>>28917729
Hey, dipshit, how about you answer >>28917714 before spewing yet more bullshit?
>>
>>28917770
you're just so wrong on so many levels, I think the pentagon would need to make at least 5 new acronyms for it.
>>
>>28917763
God, I love seeing dumb fucking internet "experts" get their asses handed to them.
>>
>>28917770
Look, you've been decimated with facts and you have nothing to do but lash out with insults, I understand, but try to think for yourself. You don't need to stay. You can learn from this.
>>
>>28917770
>oh woops, must have insulted the pog that spent all his time inventorying shit during the past 15 years
aaaaaand the simple fact that he might be fundamentally and completely wrong just never enters his tiny little mind.
>>
>>28917200
>The fact this has never once been done by any state, anywhere, at any time in history has escaped the smartest men in the room in Washington DC.

Germany, japan.
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Dear Diary,
Even though OP was still a faggot today, /k/ was not and I got to see Moobs eat massive amounts of shit after saying a bunch of dumb shit. It was a good day.
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>>28917384

It's a picture of some random factory. How the fuck is that evidence of the USA being able to churn out 1000s of f22s each year?
>>
>>28917650
>what mines will deliver the raw materials to the mills?
>>28917714
>Any number of mines in the continental US

I'll just leave this here:
Iron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_mining_in_the_United_States
>Iron mining in the United States produced 15.5 million metric tons of iron ore in 2014, worth US$5.1 billion. Iron ore was the third-highest-value metal mined in the United States, after gold and copper.[1] Iron ore was mined from nine active mines and three reclamation operations in Michigan, Minnesota, and Utah.

Coal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coal_mines_in_the_United_States
Only 3 dozen active of those. Oh noes.

Copper:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_copper_mines_in_the_United_States

Gold:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gold_mines_in_the_United_States
>>
>>28916451
Thermonuclear weapons are pretty clean imo
>>
>>28917827
now look up the numbers from WW2

gotta charge phone, be back soon, smooches
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>>28917790
Don't forget Korea....the forgotten war.
>>
>>28917853
Run away, fat man. Anons sick of your bullshit and actually willing to look up real facts ITT.
>>
>>28917853
How about you look up size of the armed forces, bomber force, fighter force, tank force from ww2 compared to now instead.
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>>28917859
Dunno about those, but that comparison looks pretty bad for the USN. Over 7,000 commissioned ships in 1945. Not even 300 now.

And I think Moobs is a moron, just to be clear.

The comparison is difficult because while there were certainly more back then, modern systems cover so much more ground, are so much more lethal and capable and can do such a wide range of missions that it's hard to really say in an absolute measure of strength.

As far as relative strength compared to the rest of the world? The US is even better off than Post WWII, no question.
>>
>>28917853
>now look up the numbers from WW2

What moronic equivalence is that? Pretty desperate grab for anything to hang your argument on.
>>
>>28917757
A car is not comparable in complexity to high tech military gear. You dumber fuck.
>>
>>28917869
>>28917867
The point is trying to make is severely less factories comparatively now to ww2. Hence my counter of vastly lower amounts of personnel and equipment that would not facilitate the need of ww2 numbers out production
>>
>>28917853
you do realize the two reason for reduction in number of mines are that the iron ore market became over saturated (which would pretty quickly and dramatically reverse in a time of war) and because you can extract dramatically more iron ore from one mine nowdays so such numbers are no longer needed
>>
>>28914414
>when they can just bomb them back to the stone age and cut off all sea trade.
That would kill thousands if not millions of Chinese civilians in their own country so no, its nuke time. They would literally strung the elite from lampposts if they refused to nuke back.
>>28917714
>https://www.steel.org/Making%20Steel/~/media/Files/AISI/Making%20Steel/2010_SteelPlant_NorthAmerica_HypocycloidVersion6.ashx
out of all those only a handful probably have the production capacity to build armor steels for example. Not all steels are equal.
>Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US.
kek. you are living in the early 2000s. Take a quick gander at EEEI publications for examples and you would see an awful lot of Chinese authors from Chinese institutes not less!
They've learned, and learned an awfully lot. They are even making their own machines nowadays, most not cutting edge yet but the West(even excluding US) is happy to oblige on that.
>Also, this - and that's just automotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States
The days of retrofitting a car manufacturing plant to shit out tanks instead are over. Both tanks and cars have way too much complexities in their production that share nothing in common with each other that it would be much better to just build a new factory from scratch instead.
>The US still has an excellent education system suitable for training such labor, and boasts the 4th largest labor force in the world (only if you count the EU as one country - 3rd if not).
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_force
high tech labor would mean years of education and experience, no two ways around that.
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>>28917921
>out of all those only a handful probably have the production capacity to build armor steels for example. Not all steels are equal.
A handful of modern plants pumping out high grade and armor steels is not in any way insignificant. The question is whether it could meet demand, and I bet if the demand was urgent even mild steel plants could retool.

>The days of retrofitting a car manufacturing plant to shit out tanks instead are over. Both tanks and cars have way too much complexities in their production that share nothing in common with each other that it would be much better to just build a new factory from scratch instead.
True, again depending on the urgency of demand. But there is no country in the world right now with the US capacity for high tech weapons and weapon platform production. No one else is even close.

>high tech labor would mean years of education and experience, no two ways around that.
You ever worked in a high tech plant? I have, up to 8 years ago just out of college. It takes training, yes, but to grunt on the line is not something that takes years and years to learn, and a vastly increased workforce is certainly not out the question for a country on war footing enacting emergency production measures.
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>>28917872
Funny enough most modern cars are more complex in terms of electronics and sensors integration than most any military ground vehicle in the world.
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>>28915976
nobody can shit out that much sophisticated equipment in 30 years, let alone in time for a major war. Modern jets are actually mass-handcrafted instead of mass-assembled. You basically need a dedicated team of assembly professionals for every phase of assembly alone doing just that. Training more people to expand production is also no joke- you need the best of the best in your nation's pool of technical specialists and even then they would take months at least of apprenticeship and training and years of familiarization to work unsupervised. Fail those standards and you get an awful lot of hundred million dollar planes plummetting from the air before being even operational. Oh I also forgot the extensive tests for each airplane and the biggest elephant of all, training pilots to operate such planes.
>>
>>28917066
I don't think at that point in time the importance of carriers was understood.

US only went full carrier on Japan because it most of what they had left. The Japanese were still convinced battleship would dominate the seas.
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>>28917957
So is my smartphone compared to military com gear. Doesn't make it MILSPEC
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>>28917953
>A handful of modern plants pumping out high grade and armor steels is not in any way insignificant. The question is whether it could meet demand, and I bet if the demand was urgent even mild steel plants could retool.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060320134139/http://www.intlsteel.com/PDFs/armor.pdf
like the car example, you would be better off building new plants instead, and since these are modern facilities specializing in relatively niche item it would take a correspondingly long amount of time to build and setup for operations.
>True, again depending on the urgency of demand. But there is no country in the world right now with the US capacity for high tech weapons and weapon platform production. No one else is even close.
i hate speaking in absolutes. Sure US is the best when it comes to shitting out sophisticated planes and jets, and aircraft carriers but I doubt you guys come close to the Russians for example in shitting out missiles like sausages.
>You ever worked in a high tech plant? I have, up to 8 years ago just out of college. It takes training, yes, but to grunt on the line is not something that takes years and years to learn, and a vastly increased workforce is certainly not out the question for a country on war footing enacting emergency production measures.
you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane? Thought so, and when each and every material is important to the war effort especially now that sophisticated equipment takes an exponential amount of effort,expertise and resources to create, maintain and operate you would balk all the more to cut corners.
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>>28917966
*oh and the components, always the components. Each component is made by just one or two specialized companies and there are like tens of thousands of them if not millions per jet! Failure to maintain the pace of production across all your suppliers would lead to situations like what the Russians are suffering.
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>>28918023
>you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane?
Holy shit it's obvious you've never dealt with military aviation maintenance. That's EXACTLY what happens. It's just that there is a qualified person who goes behind said retards to verify all work and ultimately sign off on it.
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>>28918023
>I doubt you guys come close to the Russians for example in shitting out missiles like sausages.
Considering how complex missiles systems are now and how many S-400 divisions Russia is actually gettting operational, just for instance (152 launchers in the last 9 years, compared to several thousand just one small hop before with the S-300), I would not bet my farm on it. But you may be correct. I'd have to do more research. I don't think there's any doubt overall. There may be shortfalls in certain specific production areas, but overall production is absolutely unmatched.

>you trust the highschool dropout that is only meant for hauling around carts from the storage room to the assembly room to climb up on jet in progress and put wires, and bits and bobs of the plane?
Had just such a kid in the plant I was a manager at after college. He'd started as a Janitor at the company three years before, got upgraded to the line after nine months and when I left he was training to be a QC supervisor after 8 years with the company. Yes, he was bright and a good worker, but I think you vastly overestimate the requirements and bars to advancement in such a plant.
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>>28918050
>Holy shit it's obvious you've never dealt with military aviation maintenance. That's EXACTLY what happens. It's just that there is a qualified person who goes behind said retards to verify all work and ultimately sign off on it.
never claimed to have but if thats the case then I think I should be the one doing the expletives. always had the impression you have to be really good at what you do at first before even being allowed to set foot inside the production floor, pass a couple of background checks, sign NDAs, the works. Thought only slavs were that lenient, but whaddayunow?
>>28918051
>but I think you vastly overestimate the requirements and bars to advancement in such a plant.
that maybe so.
>>
>>28918090
How do you expect someone to just take a class and suddenly be a qualified expert without ever getting hands on an aircraft? Everyone's got to start somewhere to include aviation maintainers.
>>
>>28918090
>that maybe so.
Well, it's exacting but it ain't rocket science. And even uneducated/"dumb" lower class folks aren't ever quite as stupid as some people believe them to be.

A good paycheck and a solid path to advancement does wonders for nearly all parameters of job performance and the factory floor is no different. For those with the motivation to get somewhere anyway, and you don't want the others anywhere near high-tech line work.
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>>28912883
>the anarchic nature of international relations tells me you're a dumbass.
*tips fedora*
>>
>>28917602
>A10 - 123

old as fuck worn out airframes

>AC130 - 6

a whopping 6 planes

>AH-1 - 22

outdated and near useless

>F4 - 159

I guess if we dont have to do any A2A and dont need guns...

>F14 - 8

How exactly would you propose we use 8 aircraft that in their prime when they had assembly lines for them they were considered hanger queens?

>F15 - 166
>F16 - 694
>F18 - 105

these are the only relevant numbers, and I bet that 70% of those cant be made airworthy
>>
>>28917602
>If we are losing assets at such a massive rate that we need to suddenly build new ones then Nukes

you're moving the goal posts

we're talking about replacing equipment in a conventional war
>>
>>28917663
you got numbers to back that up?
>>
>>28918258
>you'd bet
Hot source, kiddo.
>>
>>28918265
In a conventional war no other nation other than aliens is capable of bringing as many or replacing weapons at a rate the US can.

It's over.
>>
>>28918265
Are you some autist? In conventional war no other nation is as battle ready or as trained as the US. ALSO no one brings as many toys as the US. You're trying to argue who would win between 1000 gorillas vs 5 chimpanzees. This is retarded when you look at the numbers not to mention money spent on training, the fact the US has kept its pilots/troops/navy in perpetual war for the past 15 years so they have experience.

Ask us who could replace their Army between Venzuela and Colombia or something that might make remote sense. X nation vs the US is pants on head because it's asking X nation to destroy. Military many times larger and more advanced than it with no nukes and then win a prolonged battle of production and attrition.

Do you see how retarded this is?

>hey anon with a +20 handicap can you beat Tiger Woods in a round of golf THEN beat him throughout an entire Tour series?

Um....fuck no.
>>
>>28918258
>and I bet that 70% of those cant be made airworthy
676 total fighters still would represent the 6th largest airforce on the planet in raw numbers, in between North Korea and Egypt.
>>
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>>28912883
>>
>>28918331
Honestly (and im no aircraft technician, but i've got some insight), if you let a fighter jet sit outside in the desert with little care for more than a month or so, they're generally not going to be airworthy when duty calls, let alone several years.

Would be interesting to see what kind of maintenence is done on them though.
>>
>>28912883
This is either the biggest faggot or the best bait ITT.
>>
>>28918352
>Would be interesting to see what kind of maintenence is done on them though.
A lot, and they are all pretreated to protect the cockpits and any other sensitive gear with coverings and removing sensitive parts for storage or resupply elsewhere, then painted with preservative coating.

They do not fuck around with UV damage, and there's no humidity for rust, all openings are covered against dust. Every aircraft gets checked or serviced regularly, with eyes on it at least once a month.
>>
>>28918362
I think the right question is:
>What nation even has 676 extra modern planes to even do poor maintenance on?

When you answer that I think you can call it a day on this thread.
>>
>>28918372
im pretty sure russia has loads of aircraft that they do a very poor job of maintaining...
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>>28916480
Its usually on fire. Or its on a humanitarian mission because of a flood/bad weather, but has to stay in dock because it can't sail out in bad weather. Or unavailable because Bhumibols friends need a place to crash. But that doesn't make it less funny yeah
>>
>>28916360
Forget the carriers.

We have over 100 Raptors
Over 1000 F15's
Over 4,000 F16's
Mothballed F14's and several others

Even if someone DID manage to sink ALL of our carriers ( which, I would love for you to explain exactly how anyone would do that considering the massive amount of support / armor that each one has )... Hell, I would like to see someone try to sink just one. We have 3 more next generation carriers being built right now. I am also pretty sure that if a war scenario did arise, we could have those all done, VERY quickly.
>>
>>28918383
They do a poor job of maintaining their current active fleet of modern aircraft of which they have far fewer than the US.

Did you even read the thread and see what the 676 were listed as or did you just drive by to type "muh Russia" to shitpost life in to a finished argument?
>>
>>28917714
>Mountain Pass is reopened, and there are other REE mines which have yet to be exploited in the US.

the reason why they arent exploited is because its not profitable to mine the resources.

>(because its) cheaper to buy raw materials from elsewhere and let China drain their strategic reserve does not mean those magically go away.

no, but the longer the mines stay closed the higher the likelyhood that they will remain closed gets. Also the talent pool of skilled miners arent going to wait around 20 years for a mine to reopen due to profitability. They are going to leave for where the money is and no NEW skilled workers will be trained to work the shuttered mines

The steel mills that are left cant churn out a fraction of what was turned out in WW2 or even during the cold war. If we were to be involved in another "total war" we would have a hard time producing enough raw material to supply a war effort AND meet any semblence of domestic demand

>Daily reminder that most of the highest tech production facilities in China are run with US machines, designs and management. That's not to say there aren't a massive number of plants in the US, but even Chinese prowess owes a lot to the US.

and if its china we go to war with then our machinary over there becomes their machinary. this whole thread is about domestic production and you're talking about tooling we may or may not have on foreign soil

>and that's just automotive

again, it takes a long time to retool a major manufacturer to produce war material and that still doesnt solve the problem of raw materials

>most extensive rail/roads

again just because its enough for right now DOESNT mean its enough war
>>
>>28918407
Your question was
>What nation even has 676 extra modern planes to even do poor maintenance on?
And my answer is russia. They have more than 3000 planes, and im guessing most of them has sub-par maintenence done at best.
>>
>>28917723
point being is that there are a LOT less places making specialty items and especially radioactive things

a good example is places like rocky flats.
>>
>>28917757
>comparing manufacturing a chevy aveo to an f-22

yeah ok.
>>
>>28917763
>Literally enough spare airplanes to completly overwhelm any IADS in the world

seems like a good strategy, why dont we just build a million sopwith camels and inundate the enemy airspace.

and whike were at it we can just train some archers to shoot enough arrows into the engines of their helicopters.

also you just got done admitting that those planes have arent all airworthy and you use parts from them, but now somehow they're all going to airworthy ?
>>
>>28918429
Why don't you read that again and take another shot at it after looking up the number of MODERN jets they have. They have like less than 650 total aircraft in existence if you consider a first gen MIG 29 on par with US counterpart so which no one does. Do you know how many SU-27s they have with upgraded gen 4.5 electronics? Answer: 2

So again I ask: did you read or base your comment on anything more than, "muh Russia" shitpost shitpost?
>>
>>28917771
>or have you been ordering buckets of RAM coating for the F-35 from 1986?

>>You don't even have a fucking clue how RAM is applied to the F-35, do you?

I think you missed my point entirely
>>
>>28918429
Um, that 3000 number includes transport and observation aircraft.
>>
>>28917796
>>28917796
my scenario stands

we dont have the manufacturing base or the access to our own resources or the ability to transport it across the country

posting a bunch of shit about how much we produce with some impressive $$ numbers doesnt mean squat when you're talking about being able to produce enough goods to fight a real conventional war, possibly on multiple fronts.

We simply no longer have the capacity to come anywhere near what we did in world war 2, especially with modern equipment.

as far as WHO we'd have to fight, well Im in agreement that there is no one that could challenge the US, but that's not what is being asked here.

as far as the posts about avionics above Im still reading up on everything that was claimed.
>>
>>28917859
seriously? Do you seriously think that the military has anywhere near the amount of equipment and vehicles it did in WW2, or that we can churn out anywhere near the amount of vehicles, especially considering the much higher complexity of current equipment?
>>
>>28917859
also, to be clear Im not comparing equipment from that era directly to current equipment

Im comparing raw materials production and transport
>>
>>28917633
Yea. you're about right, just 10% of the reserves are actually modern battle worthy - the russians have arrived at the same conclusion but they're betting that they vast hordes of outdated, inferior equipment will deal easily with your less then stellar numbers of inferior equipment so they will eliminate long before you get a chance to re-equip with modern one.
>>
>>28918581
What about pilots? I don't think anyone is going to train them faster than the US.
>>
>>28917894
yes but now is a peacetime economy. it wouldnt necessarily be oversaturated in a wartime economy where it might be deficient
>>
>>28918428
>The steel mills that are left cant churn out a fraction of what was turned out in WW2 or even during the cold war.
Straight up bullshit, from personal experience. We produce 8 times as much or more for the same footprint of what we did with WWII machines. Part of the reason foundry and mill jobs have gone away has much more to do with how efficient production is now as opposed to total number of plants and foundries.
>>
>>28915976
Speaking of this(Old factories getting renovated during a war)

There is a book called Salvation War: Armageddon, which focuses on the armies of Hell coming up to rule Eartu and the entirety of the Human race coming together to collectively fucking their shit up. The author did a great job get all the specifics right. Gave me a huge HFY boner.

This is part 1, you can find the other chapters in the forum.

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8334


Here's some excerpts:

>"Mister President. So far, more than two dozen of these invaders, Baldricks the Brits call them, have been killed around the world. The latest was off Tokyo where a monster similar to the one killed by HMS Astute came ashore. It was engaged by the Japanese Ground Self Defense Forces and destroyed. According to the Japanese Ambassador, all that time spent shooting at Godzilla finally paid off.” A laugh ran around the room, partly a release of nervous tension but mostly in appreciation of the unexpected sense of humor shown by Ambassador Nishamura. “Most of the Far Eastern countries are coming on board pretty quickly. China, of course, has taken an early stand. The People’s Liberation Army, Army Air Force and Army Navy have all gone to full alert. Europe's following suit."

>“It did indeed. 99 in favor, one against, you can guess who that was. Effective as of 1800 Washington Time, the United States of America has formally declared war on Hell. Unconditional declaration, first time we’ve had one of those for decades. We’ve issued a conditional ultimatum to Heaven as well. Unless they open the gates and surrender those who closed them for trial within 72 hours, a state of war will exist there as well. Civilian mobilization bill is through, reserves mobilization bill is through, first issue of war bonds will be released tomorrow."
>>
>>28918050
maintenence of a plane already built and building a plane at the factory are 2 different things
>>
>>28918487
Look at Moobs pulling his trip after getting absolutely assrammed.

This >>28918428 you, too, you know nothing fat fuck?
>>
>>28918632

>"That morning, The Star Press headlines read, “Look out, Baldricks! Here comes Muncie!” That day, the Mayor's office received eight more phone calls from corporations, and the first semis and trains started to roll into the city as construction equipment started to move away from the university – which had agreed to put its new dorm on hold for the time being to aid in the war effort – and toward the old, broken-down factories. Overnight, the city had been transformed.

>And it wasn't alone. All across the eastern Midwest, the rust belt was being de-oxidized. Surveyors were entering old factories, cleaning companies entering and sweeping up dust, weeds being cleared and broken windows replaced. Lights that hadn't shone for decades were being turned on and replaced; cars were parking in lots that were more grass than gravel and hadn't been touched by tires for thirty years. More and more trains were rolling out of yards and thundering down the immense but ailing network of tracks connecting American cities to each other, and tractor-trailer semis were moving down the highways in huge fleets, carrying piping and wires and tools and other implements of the new war economy."
>>
>>28918581
>Im comparing raw materials production and transport
Yet you fail to address the points that the US produces more iron ore and finished steel than after WWII, plus >>28917714
The US still has the most extensive rail network in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size

Same with roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_road_network_size

And the most Panamax ports in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Panamax_ports#United_States_of_America

Tell me, does it hurt when your narrative is caught out for being so completely divorced from the facts that you have to pay reality alimony?
>>
>>28917757
Wait a minute here, are you that cretin to believe you can spotweld a tank with robots used to spotweld Bubba's truck?
Do you really believe US still has the industrial capability to mass churn modern electronics that are immensely more complicated than what you'll find in the even more tricked out limo?
>>
>>28918599
the question isn't "can we train them faster than anyone else"

of course we can, we probably have a higher number of qualified pilots, or pilots that can be qualified, and instructors than anywhere else.

but what will they be flying if we we cant produce aircraft fast enough
>>
>>28917827
You know what would be funny? Trying to show to these dumb jingoistic mofos the list with all the mines and refineries for aluminium and rare metals
>>
>>28918604
>today's economy is orders of magnitude bigger in peacetime than the WW2 Wartime Economy
>IT CAN'T SUPPORT ITSELF LIKE WE DID IN DUBYA DUBYA TOO
>>
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>>28918632
>>28918646
>citing The Salvation War as a source

nigger you WHAT
>>
>>28918626
>We produce 8 times as much or more for the same footprint of what we did with WWII

if we had 10 sq feet of production "footprint" in WW2 and produced at a 1lb to 1ft ratio then we were producing 10lbs of steel, and we have .5 sq feet footprint now than we can ,according to your estimation, produce 4lbs of steel.
its not how much more efficient we are but the size of the foot print

the mills arent just closed, they've been turned into malls.
>>
>>28918644
phone died on me fag. Ill happily take credit for anything ive said
>>
>>28918764
I notice you continue to completely ignore all facts in this thread, you useless fuck.

How about you try and actually form your opinions on a little thing called the real world? The fact remains that the US still produces more steel now than it did after WWII.
>>
>>28918652
>after WWII

>after

do you think Im not going to notice little shit like this?

also, as mentioned earlier, just because we have the biggest doesnt mean its enough
>>
>>28918734
so is everyone elses, so your point is moot
>>
>>28918821
>do you think Im not going to notice little shit like this?
So your argument is that our current PEACETIME production should match our maximum WWII WAR ECONOMY output? How fucking stupid are you?

>also, as mentioned earlier, just because we have the biggest doesnt mean its enough
Yeah? Who decides what's enough? Our lord and savior and the only voice in the wilderness showing us the way, Moobs, amirite?

Useless faggot.
>>
>>28918808
>after WW2

see, there it is again.

how about you stop trying to be subversive and compare WW2 numbers?
>>
>>28918844
>So your argument is that our current PEACETIME production should match our maximum WWII WAR ECONOMY output?

Not at all.

my argument is that we couldnt reach WW2 levels even if we needed to.

also why dont you calm down with the bait and trolling shit
>>
>>28918821
>also, as mentioned earlier, just because we have the biggest doesnt mean its enough

so, to sum up:
>WAAAAAAAAH WE DON'T HAVE ANY OF THIS SHIT >>28917650
Actually, we have all of this shit. Here are the facts and sources. >>28917714
>WAAAAAAAAAAH EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE A TON OF THIS SHIT IT ISN'T ENOUGH

You're pathetic.
>>
>>28918869
>my argument is that we couldnt reach WW2 levels even if we needed to.
Yet you've offered no sources to support this, no actual facts, only dire prognostications and warnings. Meanwhile, in the real world: >>28917714
>>
>>28917853
Uh in the US, Coal mining peaked in 2008 and copper peaked in the early 2000s; both were double the production of the mid 40s and are still currently much higher than then.

Gold mines closed during WWII.

Iron ore admittedly is down 40% but production of steel is similar. But then things like aluminium production is 5 times larger than in WWII so advanced alloys and other metals are also produced in larger quantities.
>>
>>28915137
It's power system was upgraded in the 80's m8, the entire series of ship was overhauled to handle computer systems of the time. Only thing she needs is current computers to fire todays missiles.
>>
>>28918758
I'm not saying it's a source, it's just fucking cool
>>
>>28911728
There is a lot of US military hardware semi mothballed at the reserve level for all the services. Sometime I think the reserves is just the biggest garage in the world. Down the road from me is a reserve armory with dozens of armored vehicles operational but mostly stationary. There are army depots with tremendous amounts of supplies. If it went to war time footing it would be just what they did during desert shield/storm. Look up those production figures if you want to see some amazing production speeds. As a additional note my father at the time was at Red River Army Depot. Now the place is on a reduced operational level and probably has "only" enough supplies for months of operations. Logistics is probably the biggest issue. It has been proven the US has a very rapid production capability even for advanced hardware.
>>
>>28918887
yeah, the coal and the steel and such are being used domestically.

the problem is inflationary.

whereas we produced what we needed for a war effort, we now only produce what we need commercially.
>>
>>28919209
>whereas we produced what we needed for a war effort, we now only produce what we need commercially.
An economy that literally rationed and took from it's citizens damn near every raw material possible to point that girls were making dresses out of flour bags is being compared to our current economy.

And yet the current economy is fucking smashing capabilities compared to the full war economy. So again, whats your fucking point? Without even TRYING we are out producing ourselves comparatively.
>>
>>28918887
further the US is a net importer of steel, by about 20 million metric tons, so we would have to have the ability to increase capacity by 25% just to be self sufficient, without a war effort.
>>
>>28918887
>iron ore down 40%

Im thinking that some of the numbers on steel might be fudged to include production overseas by US corporation owned plants

>>28919241
yeah and its hard to calculate what that means in real world numbers.

if you wholely subtract the amount of raw materials used in the entertainment, automotive and textile industries you can produce what might be closer to a number of what the current generation would lack in new material.
>>
>>28919409
>if you wholely subtract the amount of raw materials used in the entertainment, automotive and textile industries you can produce
Yet in such a war scenario that we lose every reserve unit we have on top of every frontline unit we have that "Somehow" doesn't involve a mass nuclear strike (IE physically fucking impossible short of entire world turning against us) do you really think laws wouldn't be passed to ration/confiscate the fuck out of resources? You know exactly like what happened the last couple times we were in a major world wide conflict.
>>
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>>28914488

>This is discounting the metal bars the Navy welded into the breeches of New Jersey's and Missouri's guns.

B.... but why would they do that? Seriously, why? That is some heinous shit.

At least the Texas still has her guns in working order.
>>
>>28919492
Look, im not the one who posed the question, only trying to help come up with an answer.

the question can be theoretical for academic purpose, and the enemies number or capabilities doesnt have to be based in reality.
>>
>>28919492
also yes, I do believe in such a scenario that would happen completely or in part.
>>
>>28919609
fuck you. Seriously go fuck yourself. Your the only retard in this only fucking thread who's been pushing "but we produce less than blah" and consistantly gotten your shit pushed in the entire time and now your throwing the "but i didn't ask it" flag? Fuck you. Let the thread die, you've embarrassed yourself fucking enough.
>>
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>>28915885
>all those F-4s

my dick has reached new levels of hardness
>>
>>28919247

You guys are confusing capacity with economics.

We have enough steel in this country to rebuild it half again over. The problem is that it's tied up in scrap and scrap from the US is more expensive than scrap from India or some other monkey paradise.

Were a serious war to break out tomorrow, we'd run on our active forces first, reserves second and newly minted stuff third. Would it be tough and expensive and require a huge effort on the part of the American people? Yes. Which is why it's called "War" and not "Super Happy Fun Kiddie Hour".

People were saying the same shit in the late 1930s. Right before we stomped the guts out of Japan and Germany simultaneously.
>>
>>28914817

s=k/e

Now that is an equation we can all get behind.
>>
>>28917617
>you guys think you just pull a plane out of the desert thats been sitting there for 30 years, slap a coat of sherwin williams on it, air the tires, and light the engine?
This is exactly what Ukranians doing right now. Only their planes are in much worse conditions. And tanks. And BTRs. And APCs.
>>
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>>28917727
>if you don't have troops who understand or even remotely support the cause, you're fucked. and if this generation fights our next big war, well I assume you can figure that out.

Take off the nostalgia glasses for a moment and think about it. The one big difference between our army back then and our army now is it's an all volunteer force. Sure it's peacetime now, and it's getting choked with pussies both literal and figurative who don't want to fight, and who joined up possibly BECAUSE it was peacetime just to have a stable job. On the flip side, because of the all volunteer thing, there isn't going to be the same problem with "conscientious objectors" we have when we use a draft. Are there going to be more pussies than in the past if we start a draft? Yeah, probably. Hopefully they get weeded out quickly or put where they can't fuck anyone else up, like Antarctica or something.
>>
>>28919632
did you make any points you're willing to back up by attaching a name to it, or are you going to call names from the darkness like a cowardly troll?
>>
>>28920599
American planes arent russian planes and we'd have to be pretty desperate to risk the lives of pilots that cost top dollar to train
>>
>>28916480
Do you know noting about Thailand, it's probably a tanker or cargo ship make up to look like a carrier.
>>
>>28918794
if you had any self awareness you'd retire your trip and indulge in your retardation as anon
>>
>>28921688
did you have a point to make, like something you wanted to add to the discussion, or did you just want to talk about me?

because I dont mind you giving your attention and thinking about me .

it gets me rock solid.

I mean, Im obviously important enough to you that you felt compelled to make a post addressed specifically to me, so I must be of some importance in your life...

rather than, ya know, just filtering me...
>>
>>28915345
If that's what it takes to get them where they need to be, then so be it.

Money is always cheaper than blood.
>>
>>28917508
If we had to go to a total war footing, it would be like 1942 all over again. We would fight a conservative defensive war to buy time for the homefront to kick into high gear.

We won't be producing wonders of advanced technology. We'll be churning out massive numbers of just good enough to beat the enemy technology.
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>>28919533
Because the Navy fucking hates the ships. They're ancient resource hogs that are only good for one thing, and they've been trying to get rid of them for decades.

Don't forget, her hull has spent 70+ years in salt water, too.
>>
>>28925095
>3,000+ manning requirements
>lowest morale in the fleet
>highest parts and maintenance costs in the fleet
>dubious at best combat/mission capabilities compared to Ticos at the cost of having to build entire surface escort groups around them

I love the Iowas, they're cool as fuck. But they were just not that awesome as modern refitted warships in the 1980's for the required resources, and it is without a doubt potato tier retarded to seriously consider bringing them back into service now.
>>
>>28925430
>>lowest morale in the fleet
for what purpose?
>>
>>28911907

I love how /k/ will constantly cite American freedom while simultaneously complaining about infringements of freedom.

America is not nearly as free as you like to pretend it is.

People that exercise freedoms and God given rights get arrested, given felonies, or killed.

>you think you have the right to fish and hunt
Better pay for that right and follow a ton of rules or your a poacher.
>>
>>28926760
It was a very, very labor intensive ship to work on with very few of the creature comforts of the modern navy and, due to outdated engineering systems, much higher than average required maintenance tasks coupled with most of those tasks requiring both specialized training (nothing else in the USN at that point used conventional fired water tube boilers, for instance) and far more time to complete due to lack of streamlined design geared toward ease of maintenance. They were a mess compared to modern machinery.

Morale was a constant issue on the Iowas. One of the highest crew rotation rates on any ship class in the fleet towards the end.
>>
>>28926817
>Better pay for that right and follow a ton of rules or your a poacher.
But, Anon, the hunting/harvesting of wildlife is not a constitutionally protected right.

The only people that have massive problems with this are generally the fucking idiots that don't understand the difference between a right and a regulated privilege, must less the basic concept that their rights must needs end where the rights of others begin (and the fact that this is not always absolutely clear, hence the legal system).
>>
>>28926884
Goddamn, man. Leave the jackass at least a little face.
>>
>>28915345
In a situation where we need more F-22s, money isn't going to be much of an issue.
>>
>>28913418

Iowa and her sisters are floating museums now. They won't ever be returned to service. There are a bunch of old nuclear carriers mothballed up in Bremerton, though.
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>>28927180
In situations where we'd need F-22s, money will be the only real issue.
>>
Just a little bumpski >>28911728
>>
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>>28911832
>>28916360
>>28918399
>In order for a carrier to deploy, it must embark one of ten Carrier Air Wings (CVW).[Note 3] The carriers can accommodate a maximum of 130 F/A-18 Hornets[31] or 85–90 aircraft of different types, but current numbers are typically 64 aircraft. Although the air wings are integrated with the operation of the carriers they are deployed to, they are nevertheless regarded as a separate entity. As well as the aircrew, the air wings are also made up of support personnel involved in roles including maintenance, aircraft and ordnance handling and emergency procedures. Each person on the flight deck wears color-coded clothing to make his role easily identifiable.

A typical carrier air wing can include 12–14 F/A-18E or F Super Hornets as strike fighters; two squadrons of 10–12 F/A-18C Hornets, with one of these often provided by the U.S. Marine Corps (VMFA), also as strike fighters; 4–6 EA-6B Prowlers or EA-18G Growlers for electronic warfare; 4–6 E-2C or D Hawkeyes for airborne early warning (AEW), C-2 Greyhounds used for logistics (to be replaced by MV-22 Ospreys); and a Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron of 6–8 SH-60F and HH-60H Seahawks. Aircraft that have previously operated from Nimitz-class carriers include F-4 Phantoms, RA-5C Vigilantes, RF-8G Crusaders, F-14 Tomcats, S-3 Vikings, A-7 Corsair II and A-6E Intruder aircraft.[32]

130 NIGGA. They just don't usually with that configuration.
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>>28919625
just dropped into this thread to tell you to go fuck yourself, you useless fucking tripfag
>>
>>28919609
go fuck yourself, moobs
>>
fuck moobs
>>
>>28918485
>Do you know how many SU-27s they have with upgraded gen 4.5 electronics? Answer: 2
What year are you from? 1999 or something?

In between Su-30's and 35's they already have more than a hundred.
>>
>>28932095
40 Su-35s in existence.
30 Su-30SM in existence.
>>
>>28932122
>30 Su-30SM in existence.
16x Su-30M2 AF
56x Su-30SM AF
8x Su-30SM Fleet

+ the fortyish 35's.

Welcome to 2016.
>>
>>28932139
>Welcome to 2016.
he says, while boasting about producing 4th gen fighters.

stay shitty, Russia.
Thread replies: 247
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