>>28895886 I'm not in the British military, but from what I've read, their officer corps seems to be a lot like what we have here in the states. Even in America, officers often (but not always) come from families that are generally a little better off, seeing as they could afford to go to college. That, or they were decent enough high school students to go to a service academy.
Not sure about the Army, but in the RAF they almost always act more upper class than the non-com. You can always smell an officer even in civi dress because they'll stick together in a corner and give disapproving looks to normal behavior like putting your genitals in taxidermy animals and puking over each other.
>Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
HAHAHAAHAHA. No. Our pilots get given Breitling watches for free the cunts.
>>28895886 >Are British officers still usually upper class? Most go to university and there aren't many genuinely working-class officers, but then Sandbags tends to make people act more upper-class than they are >Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted? training is a lot longer, infantry officers are expected to be far more slick in terms of drills/admin than squaddies because they have so much more to do anyway
>>28896333 Wow, it's like you know absolutely nothing about ROTC >25% of ROTC cadets are on full-ride 4-year merit based scholarships >an additional 40% are on full-ride 3-year scholarships >over 90% of ROTC cadets get at least some financial aid through the ROTC program, independent of any other financial aid >juniors and seniors (MS3's and MS4's) receive a fairly substantial living allowance/stipend >the overwhelming majority of ROTC graduates come from public universities with a total cost of attendance of under $15,000 including living expenses
The average 2nd lieutenant/ensign in the US military comes from the lower middle class, with a significant representation from the lowest class and only a minor representation from the upper class (VMI, Citadel, ROTC programs from ivy-league schools). Even the majority of service academy graduates are middle class.
>>28895886 >Are British officers still usually upper class? Far, far less than now. The only places you really see it is in the Guards or Household Division. Since the divide between classes in the UK is so small now there is barely a difference between officers and ranks in a lot of units.
>Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
Equipment is obviously the same. Why wouldn't it be? You're issued what you need for your job. Officer training is far longer to account for all the management training and academics. Depending on what capbadge they are they get trained to manage those in their trade. Inf officers and some others can effectively do what their lads do and know the job they do, but some in the technical trades don't need to know the job specifically so just learn how to manage those who do.
>>28898196 >Are Royal Marines officers well respected in the forces?
Probably more than any others. Especially by the men they lead. Unlike other services, Royal Marine officers go through the same training establishment as the ranks. On top of that they do the same highly demanding tests but in more difficult time limits so their men know they can do what they can and more.
>>28895886 There's still a distinct class divide, but not all officers are privately educated toffs.
However, if you look at the lower ranks, a lot of guys come from pretty humble backgrounds, and the army recruits heavily in ex-industrial areas like Southern Wales, Northeast England, Southern Scotland etc. which is a crowd that middle class guys aren't going to be particularly keen on joining up with.
The upper class is still the most millitrised one. Much more likely to take part in recreational shooting, cadet forces are mandatory in a lot of private schools and for many a tradition.
The officer class has always had a large amount of middle class officers. Particularly more technical units such as the RE, RA, Para's etc
Officer class is getting more middle class all the time and there has always been a substantial minority of enlisted men coming up from the ranks.
You can go to Sandhurst without a degree. The main thing they are looking for is leadership. Most training is conducted by SNCO's (a little rare for an officer school) and the best third of recruits go to the infantry.
There is a good documentary on Sandhurst I will link if I can find it later. It focuses on the outliers in the group (such as failing toffs). But it's the working class electricians son who gets into the Para's.
>>28895886 It was the mid 16th century when Sir Francis Drake noticed that having a member of aristocracy with no specialist knowledge in command of a sailing ship was really fucking stupid. It was actually a bit more complicated than just an aristocrat presiding over a ship, he would preside over a committee of the sailing master, navigator, master gunner, and captain of the marines. Sir Drake was the first to propose that officer in charge of the ship should be chosen solely on merit and not blood linage. This evolution in naval command and control never really caught on with the Spanish and is probably one of the reasons their navy fell behind.
>>28899208 >>28899246 This. Close up infantry fighting is where leadership skills are needed most. Don't get me wrong, if you are top of your class and want to join another arm you can. But the infantry requires a higher standard than most other arms
>>28899327 The Army has long been the plaything of the Aristocracy. Even when the middle classs made up large amount of the officers the Aristocracy tended to promote their friends to the top.
The RN stopped that far, far earlier. RN has been a technocratic oronisation dominated by the middle classes since before the act of union. It really show in its succeses. The armies record is a bit more patchy regardless of almost always having a very high quality of private soldier.
In America relatively few members of the upper class are involved with the military, and those who are typically come from families who have been involved with the military for generations upon generations.
This was not the case until recently however. It's considered to be an aberration and is worrying everyone from economists to political scientists.
Most recently the military is beginning to consider themselves a class apart from the citizenry, with little to no inclusion of members of the upper class among their ranks. This is also regarded as worrisome to most everyone bothering to pay attention.
It isn't like America. Money is not the sole determiner of class. A rich commoner is still only a rich commoner. That's why I always chuckle when I hear that Europe has more "class mobility" than America, because it's obvious that the people conducting the study don't know what they're talking about.
>9:00 of part one >guy that was throwing up water decides to go to toilet to throw up >as he's going to toilet throws up again >DI turns around and screams "ARE YOU GOING TO LEAVE A FUCKING TRAIL DOWN THE WHOLE CORRIDOR?"
>>28899384 No. Aristocracy means those with inherited titles They make up a tiny amount of the population. The upper class is made up of members of the landed gentry (squires, lairds, those with big houses and land but not proper titles) the make up a very small amout of the population. Both of the above groups dominated pre-industrlisation as they controlled the agicultural land. In parliment they would sit in the House of Lords.
Middle class originally included people such as lawyers, bankers, merchants, engineers, scientists, succesful buisness owners, factory masters, maritime officers, stock brokers, civil servants, mimisters etc. They would be at least as well educated as the aristocracy (often better) and have money made though professional skill of through buisness. After industrlisation they dominated industry, politics etc. They sat in the House of Commons. The Prime Minister comes from the house of commons. The Empire was created and run almost entirely by the middle class.
Skilled working class would be tradesmen, sailers, small buisness owners, farmers who owned their own land etc. They tended not to join the Army in many time periods, excepting land owning farmers who often joined cavalry units.
Working class would be those who worked in new in factories and did the labour. In many periods the army was mostly made up of working class people who couldnt find other work or those who wanted an adventure. The regimental system which put a strong focus on local identity was a big pull to join as people often wouldn't identify much with the idea of 'Britian' or even england/scotland/wales/ireland compared to Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders or the Lancashire Fusilers.
Class is pretty flexiable and people could and did switch between them regulary. Particulary between the working and middle clases.
Class means very in modern britian apart from what sort of accent you have. At least in terms of how people judge your ability.
yup. i went to the type of little private high school where 1/3 of the class goes off to a ivy league... let's just say i'm super surprised that 1 out of every class for the few years after me has joined up. even more surprised that one guy enlisted.
>>28899905 >The army was looked down upon by most in favour of the navy.
Which was funny because the British Army was 100% "volunteers" but the RN was about half pressed men, the superior RN was put down to the meritocracy of acutally earning your rank where the Army could purchase Commissions up to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
>>28900000 Yeah I know. Due to conscription the Navy represented soceity better. Though in practice they almost always took costal folk who would already have skills of a sailer. It also paid better, there was an oppurtunity to share prize money, required more skilled tradesmen and you got to win most of the time too!
Army (in the npoleonic period) got those who couldnt find something else or those who felt a sense of adventure.
In Scotland the regiments took on much of the clan system and attracted many who just wanted to fight and didn't much care for anything else Which is was for a time highland regiments had a reputation as some of the best infantry about, same as the Para's today in some ways.
>you'll never be accepted as a peer of the old money families
Why would you want to? Bunch of inbred, cold, boring weirdos who do nothing but pop antidepressants and waste their time tracing their lineage back to the Mayflower or the Dutch colonists of New Amsterdam. Go watch "Born Rich" or "The One Percent" and see if those people look like they're fun or even tolerable to be around.
>>28898244 >>28898196 my experience is that marines and para officers are all very high quality, truly driven men who are respected by the men. You hear some rumblings but by in large it's less than the rifles. Guard officers tend to be more the kind of guys following in daddy's footsteps and a bit stuck up.
Sandhurst does seem to train a generally great set of officers. Not had much experience with foreign officers other than danish and a few americans. On average they were very comparable.
>>28900268 Technically they did, they used trickery to take the shilling or used to to get Judges an offer pr Army or Prison, they never actually kidnapped people like the Navy did. The difference being that the Army took any then trained them, the RN took people from coastal town and villages expecting them to already be skilled at sea. Of course problems did occur when they nabbed a land lubber or even a serving soldier on leave.
>>28900351 only met one, clearly an inspiring guy. When things were a little hot he cut slack with dress codes and the bull shit. Very cool under fire. Had to deal with us in english, being calm enough to speak in a foreign language is impressive when some twat with a dshka is making big things smaller
>>28899365 >But the infantry requires a higher standard than most other arms The glaring contradiction is, all officers can do the job of an infantry platoon commander, and transferring to the infantry was relatively easy.
>>28895886 >Are British officers still usually upper class? There's very little martial tradition among the upper classes today. Using the example of two 2LTs; one of them is absolutely awful at her job, and she's not going to get higher than lieutenant, if she even stays that long; the other has learned RP, he's very good, and I can find no fault with him save that he can be brusque with people at times. They're both working class. The former barely follows the morals and standards of the army, and appears to my eyes to be working class and belonging to the soldier's mess, the latter follows them to the letter, and appears deceptively upper class.
>Do they get the same equipment Unless you can justify something different for yourself, yes, you will. Carrying another mortar, because you like using mortars yourself, even if you're in a densely populated European city where you obviously won't need it, is not a good idea.
>and training as enlisted? No. Regular officers spend 44 weeks at RMAS, and weeks to months training for their role with their unit afterwards.
A regular soldier spends 14 weeks in phase 1 training, and ranging from weeks to years in phase two depending on the role and the competence of the soldier. 28 weeks in a single course for both phase 1 and 2 if they're joining the infantry.
For reserves, those times are shorter across the board.
(American military) are officers generally upper class? Not generally. Its just that enlisted tend to think so since they come from lower, to lower middle class, and officers usually come from either middle class, or atleast families that have better financial management skills (Like not having 8 kids and driving a camero on a $30,000 a year salary) So he finished college and goes the officer route.
Then the enlisted guy who comes from an 11 kid $30,000 a year family who thinks that his LT is stupid and regrets his own life choices goes on /k/ and bitches that his LT is an elitist upper class retard because its easier to do than just admit that his folks are too stupid to keep it in thier pants until they are more financially secure.
Most of my officers came from families within the same income bracket as my family, they just had more intelligent and fiscally responsible folks than I did, or made better decisions than me. Atleast financially, they were still fucking dumb at everything else sometimes.
>>28895886 Sort of but not really. Obviously you'll need a degree, but since about half the population has one that's not saying much. However they always seem to be from families which have gone to university for generations, which definitely makes them upper middle class, and there's even a sub-class among them called Sloane Rangers who have a really high chance of choosing the armed forces as a career path.
>>28899573 >Most recently the military is beginning to consider themselves a class apart from the citizenry This is quite dangerous in itself, the chilean example is quite patent on the evolution of a citizen-military divide.
>>28910143 >I thought it was the SBS with the officer shortage and that SAS officers were seconded over to them. It is yeah. SBS have a smaller pool to draw from as most of their take comes from the Royal Marines.You don't often get a guy in the SBS who came from the Army initally as they're almost always drawn to the SAS.
>>28910143 >I also think there was some talk of merging them due to it, though I'm not sure if that was serious or not. I may be mistaken. There's always talk about merging the SAS and the SBS but it never actually comes to anything.
It absolutely is. I'm a USAF officer from a privileged background. Most of my fellow officers are sharp, but come from military families or are solidly middle class. Only very few of my friends from home even considered the military. I do have a friend who went to Yale who's a Marine infantry officer.
>>28912338 SBS are the more lowkey element. SIS calls on them a lot becasue they're used to more stealthy patrol stuff and like to keep their names out of the papers. SBS were in Afghan hunting AQ and Taliban alongside Navy SEALs while the SAS were in Baghdad with Delta Force kicking down doors. A lot of the stuff SBS do gets attributed to the SAS as well because most of the time people don't understand the difference.
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