So instead of the usual Nazi-wank we see here every day, I'll propose a similar topic that I have not seen.
What would it have taken for the Japanese to Win WW2? They had a smashing start in china and most of the pacific and was wondering where they went wrong (inb4 they went wrong by attacking America)
And bonus hard mode question: What would it have taken for the Italians to succeed in WW2?
>What would it have taken for the Japanese to Win WW2?
Going back in time and having Japan industrialize long before any European power so they can become an unbeatable power in Asia long before WW2 happens.
Also perhaps gaining godlike powers and turning Japan into an island rich in coal and high quality iron.
I fucking hate the historical revisionist loonies that think a dinky island with no natural resources could beat a country three times as modern, twice as populated and some 50-70 times its size.
And those are actual numbers by the way.
Italy could have come out ahead by not getting involved. Do like Spain, declare neutrality. Then, after the rest of the continent gets trashed in the war, Italy emerges as a regional powerhouse.
They're coming back, anon. It's okay. I mean, I hate most of their culture, but they've got a cute little Navy. (Self-Defense Force, lol)
To be honest, I wish we nuked Germany, too.
Please, not even. Would it have made shit harder? Yes. Would it have made the war longer? Yes. Would it have WON the war? No.
Anyways, I don't really think the Japanese could have won the war in any scenario. Technologically they were like a decade behind every other power.
Plus, their idealogy alone made a long term war unsustainable, their whole 'death before dishonor' thing pretty much ensured that they would lose all of their experienced pilots and soldiers, hence why their airforce was in the shithole toward even the middle of the war.
>inb4 they went wrong by attacking America
But this is their biggest military screwup. They attacked the U.S. Pacific Fleet because they thought it would intervene against their capture of the Dutch East Indies, when, in reality, the U.S. would not have done anything other than place another embargo of some kind.
That being said, what would have been necessary to avoid disaster is a diplomatic solution rather than a military solution. The west as a whole was unhappy about their occupation of China, and the U.S. specifically was pissed at Japan due to its membership in the Tripartite Pact, which, as history shows, did not actually benefit them at all.
If they had offered to withdraw from China and the Tripartite Pact in exchange for formal recognition of their right to hold onto Manchuria, Formosa, Korea etc, they might have been able to convince the U.S. and friends to lift their sanctions and would have been able to keep their empire. Unfortunately for Japan, its cultural obsession with saving face and its hawkish leaders who really wanted to fuck shit up in a war ended up making it lose everything.
I think he meant just declare neutrality like spain. better example would've been the chocolate banker militia that told everyone to fuck off and then smuggled Nazi (stolen) gold.
Spain had just got it shit pushed in after their civil war, and were in no position to be a powerhouse, let alone relevant for the latter half of the 20th century
They would have needed logistics worth a damn.
aka what he said
>Japanese air force is decimated by p-38 Lightning squadrons operating from far beyond their own fighters range of reply
>Airbases destroyed. America moves in and refurbishes airbases in based weeks, leapfrogs P-38s forward for even more air interdiction.
>Japan can't keep up, starts using seaplanes
Japan used their outdated warrior culture to inform military doctrine, while America waged total strategic war and destroyed their ability to rearm and reinforce. To win, they would have needed a completely fucking different war philosophy and a robust logistics chain to back it up.
>Better Oil supply lines
You need tons of ships to have a proper convoy system that doesn't get completely wrecked by submarines. You need great capacity for production to get tons of ships. Guess what Japan did not have?
This would have had no long term effect given the incredible numbers of ships that the American navy was able to field. Even if they had sunk all three American carriers and lost none of their own, it would not have changed the fact that they would have been facing 24 Essexes and 40+ CVLs and CVEs barely 2 years later.
The Japanese were involved up their ears in a war in China. They needed natural resources, America and the European powers said "end your war with China and we WONT cut off all your supplies of steel, coal, and oil.
Japan had Third Reich levels of racial bullshit going, they wanted to take back Asia from the White man, with them in charge of all the Asians of course.
So to keep their war going with China AND keep the flow of resources flowing they HAD to take South East Asia. But that meant forcefully taking American, British and Dutch assets. They knew America would never stand for them just TAKING possession of all South East Asia, so they struck first.
They hit Pearl Harbor and simultaneously took control of South East Asia. They knew from the start that if America WANTED to, they could grind Japan into dust over time. What Japan did was hit Pearl to buy them time to fortify all the hundreds of tiny little tiny islands and make defeating all those little fortresses such a pain in the ass that America just wouldn't go to war.
Also, understand that America at this time was NOT the World Police America it is today, they were very isolationist. So the Japanese took a gamble, and lost. There was nothing, NOTHING the Japanese could have done to actually defeat America if America was willing to fight a true total war, the Japanese were just banking on the fact that America might see such a war as too costly to bother with. Finally, even without the Bomb, the Soviets entered into the land war with Japanese forces in Manchuria one day after the first Bomb was dropped. The combined might of America and the USSR would have ground even the most fanatical Japanese army to dust, eventually.
Italy never stood a chance, ever. They were just a nation that was friendly to Hitler and useful in their way for placating the Mediterranean. Operation Torch buttfucked the Italians, as it always would have, but didn't do shit to the Germans ability to fight the war.
Japan could have diverted the majority of their navy to attacking America and spent longer preparing for it.
Pearl Harbor gets attacked all day long, shelled by battleships, and cruisers with submarines blockade the harbor while carriers and battleships rearm. Then they attack west coast navy bases and shipping. Invading Panama and totally destroying the canal system would prevent America from counterattacking for years. Instead of focusing on building ships they would be preparing for an invasion. America wouldn't be able to supply lend lease items in great quantities.. which means Russia wouldn't be able to survive Hitler. American naval resources would be stretched much too thin and Hitler's submarines would have been more successful. England would have been pressed much harder and Italy would have lasted much longer as well. No liberator pistols for le France probably.
>But this is their biggest military screwup. They attacked the U.S. Pacific Fleet because they thought it would intervene against their capture of the Dutch East Indies, when, in reality, the U.S. would not have done anything other than place another embargo of some kind.
USA getting involved in the war was going to happen sooner or later (consider what was already happening in the Atlantic in late 1941), the Japanese were never going to get a better chance to grab the Philippines than in late 1941/early 1942, and they NEED to take the Philippines before USA further strenghtens the place turns it into an unsinkable aircraft carrier/submarine tender situated in the perfect position to interdict Japanese shipping from.
You are ignoring the fact that the us navy also had a fleet innaAtlantic that helped with lend lease stuff, and the nazis declared war on America shortly after. It would be in America's interest to help in the European theater, then get British and soviet help against the Japanese in the pacific (using the goodwill of lend-lease as leverage).
Aka- the war would have ended the exact same basic way- with Japan getting BTFO'd
You're ignoring the tremendous advantages Japan would have after destroying the canal and every Pacific naval base and shipyard.
They could have pressured other Pacific nations into capitulation as well.
If Japan forced America to divert more of its resources towards the Pacific front that would mean less resources for the western front which means more pressure on Russia.
Russia lost one out of every four citizens during WW2.
That is a huge number.
They were teetering on total defeat.
best bet would be to coordinate with Axis for a united offensive against the SU on the East side. garrison and hold what they can of north China, fuel the tensions between the Chinese Nationalists and Communists.
help Hitler take the Caucasus oil fields, build oil pipline to Manchuria, and there you have the fuel to fuel conquest of China and SE Asia.
but the Japanese military high command (army, navy and everything in between) was borderline crayon-eating, window-licking, helmet-wearing retarded, and led by a manchild emperor, and all of them lacking the political and military savy of their Russo-Japanese War predecessors.
Instead of revising what Japan shouldn't have done.
We should focus on radically new strategies.
>Don't invade China at all
>The Chinese Nationalists were Weaboos so
>Ally them and get resources for FREE or close to nothing
>Sino-German cooperation extends to Japan
>No battlefront that bogs down most of your men and resources against a never ending hoard of Chinamen
>Instead you get more resources and manpower
>No rape of Nanking, but "Great Harmonization of People"..if you catch my drift.
>Russia is now ganged by Nazi Europe, to the West, and Sino-Japs to the East
>Russia would've been rushed and conquered from all sides.
But it's quite impossible, since they were racist fucks.
>Then they attack west coast navy bases and shipping. Invading Panama and totally destroying the canal system would prevent America from counterattacking for years. Instead of focusing on building ships they would be preparing for an invasion. America wouldn't be able to supply lend lease items in great quantities.. which means Russia wouldn't be able to survive Hitler. American naval resources would be stretched much too thin and Hitler's submarines would have been more successful. England would have been pressed much harder and Italy would have lasted much longer as well. No liberator pistols for le France probably.
You do realize that the Japanese would have to capture Hawaii to use as a base AND keep it supplied if they wanted to strike at the US West Coast? Which they were woefully unequipped to do? It's the Japanese naval resources that are being stretched thin in this scenario of yours, not American resources. USA can pump out Liberty Ships, Jeep Carriers and other support/transport vessels all day err day while the Japanese will be struggling to produce as many transport ships in a year as USA produces in a month (assuming that they DO manage to capture Hawaii), while at the same time trying to advance elsehwere in the Pacific Theatre. Oh, and since Japanese ASW sucks and their convoy tactics are basically nonexistent for most of the war, a lot of those ships and supplies are ending up in the bottom of the Pacific.
Another option would be to try the Northern approach but that would require even more resources.
Racism aside, this alone would be pretty impossible to achieve:
>Don't invade China at all
It's not like the Japanese government just decided to invade China one day, they were dragged into the war by the Kwantung Army, who were all about that Gekokujō and saw Japanese expansion into mainland Asia as the only way for the nation to survive. Avoiding war with China would require somehow purging the extremist/militarist elements of the Kwantung Army, and nobody in Japan had the political will and/or the means to do that.
>It's not like the Japanese government just decided to invade China one day, they were dragged into the war by the Kwantung Army, who were all about that Gekokujō and saw Japanese expansion into mainland Asia as the only way for the nation to survive. Avoiding war with China would require somehow purging the extremist/militarist elements of the Kwantung Army, and nobody in Japan had the political will and/or the means to do that.
Their radical factions were too extremist to be controlled for any coherent long term strategy.
In addition to the Kwantung army, the navy also had different aspirations too.
Basically if Japan would have managed to control the extremists in the Army/Navy things would never have escalated so much in the 20s/30s. They probably would have been able to keep Korea, Formosa and Manchuria while keeping good relations to the West
How do they do that exactly?
Operate their 6 carriers and 330 aircraft in range of the CONUS and their 2000 fighters and 1500 bombers?
Good fucking luck with that. The US Atlantic also still had all their capital ships intact.
No the Germans were fooled into thinking the allies were attacking using a much shorter amphibious route from England. Where do you guys read history holy fuck this is like basic shit. Hitler personally ordered the shifting of troops away from where the allies landed based on bad Intel.
More or less.
But the greed and power lust of men are not to be taken so lightly.
One way or they other, they would've imploded. Their inter branch rivalries were great enough to warrant assassinations and such.
Perhaps a civil war between the Monarchy, Loyalists, and Extremist could've occurred.
Would make a good novel.
While we're on the topic of Imperial Japan, a lesson that all of us can take away from their example is that in spite of the many questionable decisions made by our government regarding military matters due to civilian control of the military, it is a situation that is much preferable to having a junta in charge of your government like what happened to Japan until we freed the shit out of them in '45.
Japan couldn't ever win a war with the US. Not by just fighting with the US in all-out war for years.
Only way possible was doing what they tried to do: massive strikes to eliminate US naval ships in a swift opening move, and try to force the US to some kind of peace treaty after a land grab. If Japan had succeeded with Pearl Harbor (if the US CVs had been there) and if Japan didn't have lose at Coral Sea and Midway, it was possible. But instead, they failed to take out the US fleet, so the US just kept fighting, and Japan kept losing, and the US production capability totally shat all over them.
lol because Spain is totally a regional powerhouse
Have a truly horrifying experience like WWI. The culture of Japan at the time equates well to the pre-WWI ideals in Western Europe. War is all about honor, colonizing people because Japan is racially superior ect. The Japanese lacked a true experience with the horrors of total like Europe had with WWI and the US had with the Civil War/WWI. The Japanese where fighting a war with their mentality about it 100 years behind the technology.
The Japanese also refused to adapt their technology. Land and air forces specifically the navy did do a lot of innovative stuff in the 1920s and 1930s. They over ran China with late 1920s technology and taught that it would work against anyone else. Now one could argue that the lack of industrialization prevented an advance in technology but if you can make rifles and the large complex machine guns a sub machine gun could be developed. While they probably did more observers in the Spanish Civil War would have shown the Japanese that their strategy and tactics were obsolete and the development of other weapons systems.
Also industrialize Korea and Manchuria like the Home Islands during the Meji restoration.
What I don't understand was that Japan was the fast track to modernizing and wanting to keep up with Western nations during the whole mad-grab in China and shit. They managed to curb the fuck outta the Russkies in the Russo-Japanese War as well. What the fuck happened to them after that and how did they become so fucking ass-backwards when it came to WWII?
>Only way possible was doing what they tried to do: massive strikes to eliminate US naval ships in a swift opening move, and try to force the US to some kind of peace treaty after a land grab. If Japan had succeeded with Pearl Harbor (if the US CVs had been there) and if Japan didn't have lose at Coral Sea and Midway, it was possible. But instead, they failed to take out the US fleet, so the US just kept fighting, and Japan kept losing, and the US production capability totally shat all over them.
I seriously don't see any way that USA would have backed out of the conflict after the attack on Pearl Harbor, especially not since Hitler so helpfully declared war on USA a few days later, which sort of solidifed the whole thing.
Not attack America. They could've taken most of China though.
The Italian's were helpless I mean god damn look at their track record in both world wars. Their equipment was shit too.
Also the nature of the air war changed. Their fighters were some of the best turn fighters developed and absolutely destroyed early war. But as more powerful engines were developed, air combat changed to favor faster and heavier aircraft that could retain energy better than Japan's light planes. That, along with the loss of their vets, crippled Japans air power.
Not enough to be sustainable in their conquest. They were also buying all the US scrap metal and oil they could. It was really lucrative. But when you see the war crimes japan was doing and the lives they took the US embargoes them. When this happened the only way for Japan to continue on their conquest is to conquer the resource rich islands that are owned by western powers. They hoped to cripple the US so bad with pearl harbor that our navy would be unable to stop them. Unfortunately they missed out on destroying our carriers, which were out at sea, and they severely underestimated our industrial capabilities once we went to total war status.
>What the fuck happened to them after that and how did they become so fucking ass-backwards when it came to WWII?
Meiji Restoration happened because a bunch of anti-Tokugawa daimyo propelled the Emperor to power (the Emperor had been politically insignificant since the Heian period in Japanese history, to the point that your average pre-modern Japanese peasant might not even have known that the Emperor existed) and became oligarchs. By sheer coincidence, said oligarchs (look up "Genro " if you want to know more) were actually extremely capable politicians, statesmen, and diplomats, which is why they were able to guide the country on the right path.
The problem came after they all died of old age. Much like what happened with Frederick the Great and his successors, the Meiji oligarchs had been shouldering administrative responsibilities that their successors were incapable of effectively handling, and the Meiji Constitution made no provision for their replacement, on top of giving far too much political power to the military. The result was a power vacuum that culminated in an outright civil war between two factions in the Japanese military that left one of them (the one to which Tojo belonged) entirely in charge of the government.
You can sure as hell bet that if the Meiji oligarchs, a number of whom were massive westaboos, had still been in power, Japan would never have entered an offensive war with the United States.
That's so wrong I can't even begin to think of where to start correcting you so I'm just going to post an incredulous anime girl instead.
The navy was pretty solidly traditionalist and fiercely loyal to the Emperor. That's one of the many reasons why they were incapable of cooperating with the fascists in control of the Army.
It was a huge deal that they beat the Russians, actually. There was a lot of international support for Japan when they fucked up the Chinese in the first Sino-Japanese War, but all of that evaporated when they beat Russian. You have to remember that the turn of the twentieth century was the golden age of scientific racism; the western world was aghast that a bunch of subhuman asiatics playing catch-up had actually managed to defeat whites and had done so by such a large margin.
There was a lot of outward rationalization about how Russians are themselves asiatics and not actually white in the aftermath of the Russo-Japanese war, but, inwardly, the white nations of the world were unnerved by what had happened. It was the beginning of a decline in relations between Japan and the west that was a contributing factor towards WWII. It's also what sparked the whole Yellow Peril thing.
They went wrong far earlier than attacking the US. It was mostly doctrinal and strategic efforts that's hindered them in the naval sector and a lack of coordination that existed between the branches and their goals.
I don't really mind that we have these threads every few days, but I really wish that some day the "inferior Jap infantry weapons" meme would die already. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the Type 38 or 99 infantry rifles, the same goes for both the Type 96 and Type 99 light machine guns as well as the Type 100 submachine gun.
The only consistent issues you begin to see are in the late war when production facilities were forced to cut corners to meet quotas, the same thing you see with last ditch rifles produced by Nazi Germany.
>"inferior Jap infantry weapons" meme would die already
They are inferior compared to other offerings.
In addition to that, they have multiple non-interchangeable variants of the same caliber.
First problem, Mussolini and Hitler were buttbuddies. When Hitler began to expand in his conquests, Italy originally wanted Hitler to proceed cautiously. Even though Germany was giving constant aid in form of supplies so Italy could catch up militarily.
Second problem, greed. Mussolini wanted a share of the spoils from Poland, and began begging Hitler for a chance to help out. Eventually during the invasion of France, Hitler does so. Italy performs so badly they get shit on by French defenders for like 3 days before the Germans come and save the day. After that Germany realized Italy was more a hindrance than anything.
Basically, Italy allied itself with German in the 30's due to similar political beliefs, and stayed due to greed.
>rather than the usual completely ludicrous 'what if' scenario, I'll pose a different yet just as ludicrous scenario.
Don't let the military take over, that's where they went wrong.
>American mainland bombed
>Japanese in camps sick + starving
>"Americans tried to exterminate 6 million Japanese"
This is literally how the jewish holocaust got made up.
Nazis put jews into camps like we did Japanese
Nazi railroads and mainland bombed
Camps have no supplies
Camps full of starving and sick liberated
Blown into propaganda for the next 100 years
>anti-nuclear missile systems
You either trolling bro or you know jack about atomic BOMBS bro.
Probably not aligning themselves with Germany in the first place. If they had just kept to themselves and shit stomped China, Korea and parts of South East Asia I don't think the west would have protested that much.
Although that may be too big of a change in this case.
I'm curious how the Soviets would have handled the Japanese creeping up like that.
I'm sure they were still angry after Russo-Jap war in 1904-05 and Khalkhin Gol.
Also, didn't Hitler get pissed at the Japs for attacking China? If I recall the Germans and Chinese were kinda becoming friends until Japan had to be a dick.
holy fuck, its like the three stoodges ran the russian navy
Germany had concessions in China in the past, but after WW1 they lost all of them as punishment. Also, I shouldn't tell you that there was a difference in government between pre-WW1 Germany and pre-WW2 Germany
I read that Germany would have signed treaties with the nationalist Chinese if they could have had a chance and the nationalists were winning.
Japan was an English ally in WW1 so Hitler wasn't dead set on becoming friends with them. However at the time they were the only strong partner in the east willing to pact with them.
BUT the Japanese couldn't keep their shit together and attack Russia, instead they went after America and completely fucked up Germany's chances for a dual front in Russia.
The only way the Japs had even a remote chance after Pearl Harbor was Germany land a pre-emptive Nuclear strike or something of similar severity that completely preoccupied American military affairs. And even then they might not dissuade the Americans. The Japs just couldn't mathematically win.
Nazi Germany and China were pals. I doubt the Weimar Republic or anything like that cared.
> It was the beginning of a decline in relations between Japan and the west that was a contributing factor towards WWII.
That must be why the Anglo Japanese alliance was strengthened right after Tsushima and again in 1911.
The real break with the west happened after Japan threw a hissy fit after WW1 about not keeping all the German pacific stuff and another one after the washington naval treaty.
>What would it have taken for the Japanese to Win WW2?
Not being Japan
Japan started a war with a country that had 10x the economic/industrial potential they had.
>inb4 they went wrong by attacking America
That's literally largely where they went wrong.
They needed to develop Tank technology and learn how to into convoy systems to keep their islands supplied. Also should have kept their war solely focused on the British and keep their promises to Germany and open a second front against Russia in 1942.
As for the Italians, they were told flat out not to get involved in the war until 1943 by the German High Command as their military would be properly modernized by then. They should have listened and played friendly neutral to the Germans. Africa may have only tied down 3-5 German divisions, but the Invasion of Italy diverted nearly a million men from Russia.
>Fed with low capacity ammo strips
>Rounds have to be oiled to cycle correctly, which ironically leads to dirt and debris sticking to the ammo in battle conditions, which leads to feeding/cycling problems
>Low (450 rpm) rate of fire, though many nations had slowish-firing MGs
Jap and Italian MGs were WWI-tier. Not bad for their time, but antiquated design-wise come WWII.
Belt-fed was (and still is) the bees knees of WWII.
Hitler and Franco were buttbuddies, and Spain managed to stay neutral.
Might have been because Spain was broke after their civil war, plus Franco was a realist.
Musso and Stalin were pretty chummy, too. I think Hitler hopped in bed with Musso just to steal him from Stalin.
Sorry I should say that's just for the Type 92
Their LMGs were decent. Type 11 was antiquated by the 97 and 99 were comparable to Brens and worked perfectly fine for their role.
Japan with the 97 and 99 arguably had better LMGs than the USA with the M1919A6 (heavy for a LMG) and the BAR (not really a MG). USA had better MMGs and HMGs however with the M1917A1, M1919A4, and M2.
Just some general tiers IMO
UK/Japan (Bren)(Type 97/99)
Italy (Breda 30)
USA (M1917A1, M1919A4, M2)
USSR (PM M1910, SG43, DShK)
UK (Vickers, M2)
Italy/Japan (Breda 37)(Type 92)
>because Spain is totally a regional powerhouse
Spain was still rebuilding after their civil war. They were supposed to pitch in on the Axis side (iirc) around in 1942, but Hitler asked them to hold off after he realized how bankrupt they were. After the war, Spain wasn't in much better shape than the rest of Europe.
If Italy had been neutral, they wouldn't be handicapped by playing host to the second quarter of the war. They would have had one hell of a head start on the rest of the continent. Kinda like Switzerland, only with better climate and a coastline.
>not a humiliating disaster for the tsarist forces
>Russia didn't keep its eastern territories cuz of favorable treaty brokering by Roosevelt.
whatever you want to believe Vladimir
>They had a smashing start in china
They were bogged down in an unwinnable and unpopular war for 4 years before Pearl Harbor.
>most of the pacific
You mean Malay peninsula, Java, and the Philippines, plus a couple of small islands like Wake and Guam.
Did anybody ever use the rate selector on the BAR? It's useful as hell in vidya (well, Rising Storm), but I've never been able to figure out if it was really used in combat.
>Nazis put jews into camps like we did Japanese
Yeah those poor Japs really had it rough.