Torture for information. Yes? No? If so then how hard?
What's more effective, raw brutality or psychological manipulation?
Psyops works best, but examples need to be made occasionally.
Why doesn't torture ever produce useful information?
Einstein was always a humanistic soul. This man's wife cheated on him, and Albert is simply helping him wash away the tears.
Enhanced interrogation is a potential tool but it's effectiveness is sometimes dubious; in short the effectiveness is specific to the situation. For it to be effective you need to establish that A: a lie will warrant escalation and B: statements will be checked for authenticity.
Point A can reveal to the subject a lack of knowledge or facts, bluffs called, and so on that would be counterproductive to the operation.
Point B is time consuming and difficult to ensure complete verification. Most operations do not go on that long to allow for such a slow and methodical process.
Psychological intimidation is a critical factor in interrogations, but it is ineffective if the subject feels antagonized by an aggressor rather than punished by an authority figure. This is accomplished by being assertive, having a diverse knowledge of facts about the subject, and providing options for the subject to receive lesser punishments or rewards for cooperation. An interrogator should always walk a fine line between providing intimidation and salvation; it is only through them that the subject can free themselves from their situation and that is how good intelligence is obtained.
Someone explain to me what he did with the water jug. Also he's super evil but why do I find myself rooting for him?
WELL /B/ WON'T FUCKING HELP EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE FUCK THE GODDAMN STORY Is ABOUT AND THE GODDAMN COMMENT SECTION WON'T STOP SCREAMING ABOUT THE ONE MILLION SUB SHIT SO CAN ANY GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKER EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE GODDAMN STORY IS ABOUT GODDAMNIT I BROKE MY GODDAMN PHONE SCREEN ALREADY FROM HITTING IT 25 TIMES AND HAD TO BITE MY HAND HARD ENOUGH TO DRAW BLOOD FROM IT SO I WOULD STOP HITTING MY PHONE THEN IJUST ENDED UP STABBING MY GODDAMN FLOOR WITH MY FUCKING KNIFE SO CAN ANY GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKER EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE FUCK THE STORY IS ABOUT JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THE NARRATOR IS GOING ALL OVER THE FIELD IN THE STORY AND IT'S TOO GODDAMN CONFUSING FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND SO FUCKING HELP GODDAMNIT FUCKING HELP NOW AND IF ANYONE DOES HELO ME UNDERSTAND THEN WOO FUCKING WHOO I'M GIING TO TAKE MY GODDAMN PHONE AND FIRE OFF MY GODDAMN RIFLE AT IT SO IT WOULD FUCKING HELP ME CALM THE FUCK DDOWN!
He fucking murdered three innocent people just to really fuck up the guy he was about to kill. That's fucked. He also almost killed the MC just because she refuse to go along with his insane plan. Also did you forget that he is a hitman for the COLUMBIA cartel? He didn't do it for America, he did it for his boss the Columbia cartel.
It's useless. You'll either always hear what you want or the prisoner will hit that psychological zone out point where the pain no longer phases them. Seriously if you're captured there's no point in not telling what you know, unless you do want to die for your country.
>murdered three innocent people
>the wife and children of a ruthless cartel boss
They were benefiting just as much as he was, or did you not see the mansion? Furthermore, that guy was responsible for the death of Del Toro's family, so an eye for an eye.
>almost killed mc
She needed to be cowed into submission. She was only ever a part of the task force as a formality anyway, she contributed nothing to CIA and Delta's operations.
The CIA still trusted him enough to let him ride with them. The CIA always works with locals or non-national specialists, to help them get done what they need to get done.
Seriously, how naive are you?
>He fucking murdered three innocent people just to really fuck up the guy he was about to kill
A mercy killing desu. In the vacuum that killing the head would cause, they would have met violent ends regardless.
Its not a nice place.
>He also almost killed the MC just because she refuse to go along with his insane plan
Just in the vest because she almost fucked up an extremely delicate operation.
>Also did you forget that he is a hitman for the COLUMBIA cartel?
>He didn't do it for America, he did it for his boss the Columbia cartel.
Shared interests, CIA wanted what the Medellin wanted.
Why are you projecting this weird black/white Disney morality onto the film? The CIA weren't the good guys, their actions in the film cause untold civilian deaths. Half the reason the film has gotten so much praise is because it portrays the war on drugs as grey on grey, because that's how it is.
Okay so uhh anyone else think the writing was godawful? I mean how hard was it to find a giant fucking house in the middle of no where in Mexico with all of the sophisticated US satellites?
>Why doesn't torture ever produce useful information?
It encourages the victim to end the torture by any means necessary, which naturally includes lying. Thus torture is a long, repeated process of Torture > Check Facts > Torture Again > Repeat. The amount of false information produced and effort wasted verifying it is staggering. It can also make victims LESS likely to tell what they know, as they quickly learn that sending their captors on wild goose chases is an effective way of continuing resistance from within prison.
This information was common knowledge prior to the "enhanced interrogation" debacle of the W Bush administration, which was misled by several psycologists who endorsed it without evidence. Their research was thoroughly and publicly debunked recently. All of this information is available in publicly available reports you can find on Google if you want.
Do we know it was in the middle of nowhere?
The jefe's jefe could easily have been either near town or in a gated community. In the beginning of the movie the mainstream FBI knew about the guy's lieutenant, but his boss seemed to be essentially a ghost.
If we looked from the outside in at this cartel boss, he could very easily be a "legitamate businessman" and/or made. Combined with the fact that US drone strikes have been less effective at assassination than has been hyped, it would be wise to confirm exactly who he is or where he stands before acting.
I mean, a CIA affiliate had to be led to him by the lieutenant and he looked like a yuppie, so he obviously didn't stick out.
For maximum pain
>Start by removing toenails smallest to largest, make sure you are prepared for blood
>repeat with finger nails
>start using a utility knife to remove toes
>joint by joint
>stop bleeding with rubbing alcohol dampened gauze
>repeat for fingers
>remove sections of the ears
>stop bleeding by similar means
>remove most of the nose with 150 grit sandpaper
>stop bleeding by similar means
>tie a tourniquet at the ankle
>threaten to take the foot off
>slowly cut into it
>stop bleeding as you go
>through this remove the feet and hands
>utilize more sand paper and give them shave them bald with it
keep adrenaline handy
give time between removals for questioning
should they show signs of blood loss leave them be for a while to let their body heal
So, the non-edgy faggot way to answer the question was:
> Yes, torture them hard. It's more important to exhibit raw brutality.
Do we know it was waterboarding? Sure he brought the jug in there and everyone outside saw him bringing it but at the end the camera pans down and the jug is still sitting there while some strange noises are occuring. Add to that the fact that two of the agents uncomfortably walked out and one turned off the camera, and I and a lot of other people who saw the movie thought it was more ambiguous as to whether he was doing worse things to him. Not saying the waterboarding theory is flat out wrong but I think they were trying to make it a little bit more ambiguous. And at that point in the movie it isn't clear yet just how crazy his character is.
Just do it the Eldar Harlequin way, by inserting the longest dildo you can find up their ass. The more they refuse to talk, the bigger in size you use.
Torture is counter-productive for getting quality information.
Its good for getting false confessions, if that's what you want.
Its corrosive to the morals and morale of those that do it.
Its beneath the ethical standards of a superpower.
also the business was realty, meaning many many houses to comb through, narrows the search but then again we spent 10 years looking for sammy bin laden in afghan only to find his fucking ass in Pakistan
If it has a good chance of working and there aren't alternatives, why not? Reliable shmiable. I'm happy if two people in separate rooms point to the same place on a map. That's something you can pass on to get checked out.
Just a guess, but...
>Force prisoner to drink water until it hurts. (Use garden hose/rubber tubing etc. like a funnel)
>Get lied to/stonewalled.
>Punch prisoner in the stomach. Hard.
>Get lied to/stonewalled.
>Re-insert garden hose and tilt water bottle.
You know what's better than torture?
Getting the guy on your side as a friend.
If you make a deal with him that's mutually beneficial you are more likely to get factual information, and should his information prove to be false, you can rescind the deal you made.
If you torture him, all you encourage is fro him to say/do whatever it takes to get the torture to stop.
The only time torture is ever effective is when you want confessions/patsies, rather than actual information.
Or you're a sadistic fuckhead high on the power you wield over others.
Hire hot slut
Hot slut makes friends with fag
Hot slut gets information
Problems solved. Its literally why women exist.
Look at how quickly the average man divulges his entire life story as soon as a non-fat chick speaks in his direction (unless he is from the lower class than fat chicks work too).
Hot sluts are also the best way to conduct a home invasion.
Get the hot slut to ring the doorbell of a single dude
You and your buds post up out of view but within running distance, weapons ready.
Sad fag's dick gets filled with blood and excited when he sees chick at his door. His situational awareness also dies, he is no longer at the ready even if he has a sidearm nearby.
Run in, kill homeowner, grab whatever.
Sad betas make life easy.
It depends on what information you're trying to extract, whether the extracted information's validity can be verified quickly, how long you have. Sometimes it depends on the person.
Great idea on how not to have a prisoner real quick.
That is why you present scenarios where the only way to make the pain stop is to tell the truth. This is easy if you have 2 separate detainees. If both are informed that they need to be giving the same answers as their friend, they'll be more cooperative. DON'T let up when they give an answer, as that teaches them to say anything for a few seconds of relief. You continue the session until time is up and start another the next day if you find that you got conflicting answers upon reviewal. I'm just spitballing here. This isn't from experience or anything.
You can't make friends with a terrorist easily. Some of them are just too brainwashed already to ever think a westerner is anything but vermin. The friendly approach can take months in this instance, where as torture would take days.
>This isn't from experience or anything.
No shit, Sherlock.
Okay so if you knew where something was hidden, and I wanted to know where it was, torturing you wouldn't make you tell me?
You think that being tied to a chair having your nails ripped out and your kneecaps cut out, and all you have to do to make it stop is help me find this thing I need, you wouldn't tell me?
What about, say, giving the man sexual favors but from /k/'s furries?
>This isn't from experience or anything.
By any chance, did you decide not to include what I said about those favors because you may have tried them in the past?
retard were you even paying attention the film? He was a prosecutor in the Mexican legal system and his wife was killed and his daughter thrown into a vat of acid, it was stated in the film they also point out when people say "Medellin?" that it isn't a group of people but a time when the drug trade was controlled by a few people i.e CIA theories or Columbian cartels. Jesus fucking Christ, at least WATCH THE FILM before you criticise you mouth breathing fucking idiot.
It does not work for several reasons.
1. They will give you the answer you want to hear. "If I say something he likes, the pain will stop"
2. Your enemy will hear about this, if they do, they gain the moral high ground and can recruit more people more easily.
3. Even if they tell a truth, it may not be completely true.
The best way to get information is by interrogation. You want to assure your captive that he is in good hands and will not be harmed. If you can convince him that he is in the hands of the good guys, he will more than likely give you information.
So my friend goes to check the place you tell me, while I rev up the saw, or sharpen the carving knife, with a radio nearby waiting to hear a report on whether the item is there or not.
My point is that as long as there is no time limit, or a long one, you can use torture to get information because eventually the person being tortured will either break down and spill his guts or realise that the only way for him to escape with the appendages he has left is for the torturer to find what he needs.
I'm not saying that torture should be used if there is an imminent threat, but say I really, REALLY needed to use someone's computer and didn't know the password, cutting their fingers off would probably make them tell me the password.
>4am start. Heavy rain. Went to pick up a rebel runner who’d been detained, a young Chechen, no more than 15. We tortured him. I put him through a mock execution by shooting next to his head.
>He quickly gave up his fellow rebels. He told us everything he knew, pointing us to their training camp and an arms depot, and named several rebels. Swiftly, we returned to base with a second Chechen we’d nabbed. After we tormented him, he too spilt the beans, pointing us to several rebel safe houses. We acted on the intel at once and went to the home of three Chechen brothers who’d been behind a series of blasts.
You are full of shit.
>A malnourished adolescent message boy couldn't handle having his arms and legs broken, therefore torture is a reliable method of Intel gathering
Worthless post, remember to proofread.
This was basically communist Romania's intelligence 101 back in the day
You really think that's going to work? You'll be tortured for as long as it takes to get the real answer. You aren't dumb enough to give a false answer if you want the pain to stop. The only time torture has no chance of working is when the victim genuinely doesn't know what is wanted, although torture is generally not used unless it's near certain that the victim does know.
Why is water boarding torture so demonized? Enemies of the west have been using all kinds of cruel as fuck tortures yet when the west starts doing water boarding torture which is fucking nothing they all freak out.
>I'm not a goat
Uh.. I would hope not?
>We acted on the intel at once and went to the home of three Chechen brothers who’d been behind a series of blasts.
You have no idea how little Russians value life or how much they value claiming success on paperwork.
The Chechens they tortured could have lied and they could have killed the wrong people and it would not have mattered at all. The objective was "achieved" and thats what matters. Only children and never served chickenhawks think that is a model to follow.
>nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
It's part of our founding document, one of America's core principles, that torture is worthless and below us. Fuck you for thinking that it's OK because other people did it.
If anything, I'd probably
>inb4 you'd never probably
Just here me out
I actually fucking love how Sam Fisher does it in conviction, just fucking throwing them around like rag dolls and improv with the objects around you in a quick, fashionable, brutal way
OR, maybe I don't know where the item is but since you are torturing me I keep telling you different places I think you want to hear ultimately wasting everyone's time and resources
Your example is pretty much the only instance where that remotely works, since sitting there typing passwords, keys, etc. is easy.
Start asking "where's the rebel base?" and it quickly falls apart because it costs a lot of time and resources to go investigate every god forsaken hole the torture victim directs you to.
Brutality might make people crack, but they're just as likely to break down entirely.
Psyops is cleaner but can be more feasibly thwarted by just lying.
I dont get why people dont hold [spoiler]CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT[/spoiler] on the same pedastel as [spoiler]SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
>Torture is the technique of choice of the lazy, stupid and pseudo-tough.
-Former Navy Judge Advocate General Admiral John Hutson
>somehow recognizing continuing violence for the sake of violence as unproductive makes me buddhist
Precision strikes or undermining an enemy is far more effective than "muh revenge," and that's why the Middle East is still shit and will always be shit. Savage violence for the sake of violence doesn't work, especially not when there's plenty of other more effective alternatives.
That's why your culture is shit, Ahmed and that's why your antiquated beliefs don't fly in countries that have gone to the moon.
>if the subject feels antagonized by an aggressor rather than punished by an authority figure
The idea that people distinguish between the two is foreign to me. Being punished by an authority figure is one particular flavor of being antagonized by an aggressor.
Because we are the biggest and baddest and nobody can fuck with us, we make our own rules. That is, until it happens to us and then its totally not fair and probably a war crime and I'm telling mom okay?
People are fickle bitches.
Mostly because they couldn't give a rats aas as long as they keep their guns.
Honestly all the government would have to do to erode every other freedom is just keep gun owners happy.
Every toilet now has anti-masturbation cameras in it.
But its fine, you can get MG's again.
>torture for information
Isn't effective, everybody who knows anything about intel will tell you this. I know some edgelord will outline what he thinks is an effective way to use torture to get info, but if he were right, somebody outside of 4chinz would have figured it out.
>implying that non-citizens have constitutional rights
>implying that non-state actors are protected by international treaty or law
Since when were the two seperate? ise both attacks simultaneously, body and mind, see which breaks first..
To you Obama worshipers, look at the wet bagged method, anyone who says that wouldn't get results from 90% of the population is a liberal
>To you Obama worshipers, look at the wet bagged method, anyone who says that wouldn't get results from 90% of the population is a liberal
Holy shit what a stereotype. Do you also beat your wife and go to church every Sunday?
The question is not whether it would get results, but whether the results would be reliable and worth the effort, as people will tell you any old shit in order to make you stop torturing them. That has been the overwhelming topic of the whole thread, you illiterate hick.
>just torture multiple people
Then you end up with the problem of not getting any information that isn't known by all of the people you're torturing, which is likely for any information that couldn't easily be learned with regular interrogation.
>I dont get why people dont hold [spoiler]CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT[/spoiler] on the same pedastel as [spoiler]SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
Welcome to the world. People only give a shit about the rights that affect them and will happily shit over all those that they don't care about. The antigunners operate in the exact same way.
>Then you end up with the problem of not getting any information that isn't known by all of the people you're torturing, which is likely for any information that couldn't easily be learned with regular interrogation.
Not to mention that any half-way intelligent organization compartments intel so anybody captured can't do much damage.
>>implying that non-citizens have constitutional rights
>>implying that non-state actors are protected by international treaty or law
They do have some de-facto protections even if they don't fit neatly into Geneva definitions
Citation: all of the hubbub that was going on during Bush II and the results of that hubbub
Put a wet rag over your face. Open your mouth, then, with your right hand, empty a water bottle onto your face. It's unpleasant- but not half as bad as actual waterboarding.
Waterboarding was once used in Navy Seal training, but it was quickly done away because most prospective Seals dropped out rather than allowing it to be done to them again
>while some strange noises are occuring
Anon, you may have never heard it before, but those rhythmic grunts were from him fucking the guy.
>they killed his daughter, therefore it's okay for him to go around killing other people's children
I'm honestly not sure how to react to a positive response to that. But it's true, we just want someone cool to innawoods with and have their back.
>Furries are /k/'s best friend
>Loyal like dogs, but with opposable thumbs for speed reloads
They say you get more flies with honey than vinegar, but the science proves flies are more interested in the vinegar. Ironically enough, the scientific metaphor translates pretty well, as humans respond fully to negative stimuli because the pain/disappointment/sorrow reflexes weigh heavier than the reward reactions. I suppose you could win someone over and take advantage of their complacence, but it's much cheaper to just break most humans rather than to try and 'reverse psychology' them.
Granted, every man has his price, but sometimes that price is only to rent his loyalty/information rather than to buy it outright.
Humans are one of the most difficult animals to train/compel because we do not only act on instinct if we think, for whatever reason how illogical, that we can manipulate the situation we are in. You can't torture some men, you can't win others, it really is an exercise in profiling.
I will admit that general conditioning is good before going after individuals; the American justice system's plea bargain racket, or the "general deterrence" afforded by the abuses of Narcotics agents.
I'm not convinced.
Will a furry battle buddy suck my dick for a teaspoon of peanut butter?
>a teaspoon of peanut butter?
Stingy fucking jew. At least pony up a tablespon and a pat on the head.
>implying I wasn't just being vague in order to get people to rewatch the scene for themselves and see what the filmmakers were trying to imply.
>being eager to point out you know what man on man sex sounds like.
Jk, I know what it sounded like. Just figured that if it didn't involve the water jug, sounded like that, and was preceded by several agents giving disgusted looks and leaving, people would be able to figure it out.
>using dog for blanket
>not using the dog literally bred for this purpose
Bro, I love malamutes as much as anyone, but Samoyeds are literally biological blankets, they were bred by the mongol tribe that shares their name, for that purpose. Also to pull sleds and help them hunt caribou.
might want to look up Jose Rodriguez before posting that propaganda bullshit by a liberal outlet. on top of that....you would think any high ranking officers would jeopardize their career?
also the effects of having no sleep and being starved.
You don't get it. If I don't know shit about what I'm being asked, I tell them I don't know and they keep torturing me to get the info they think I have. Or I can say whatever will get the pain to stop, and when they find out it is false they come back and torture me more. Both ways make the time and effort of torturing a prisoner totally useless because you get no reliable info.
I said nothing about the morality of torture or a anything regarding it being inhumane. That's completely besides the point. If all you can do is throw around the word cuck everything you don't like what someone tells you, you ned to go back to /b/.
I won't say that torture never works. But the majority of the time, it fails to provide anything useful, and is a pretty poor way of gathering any sort of useful information. Especially when it comes to having to verify that anything provided by the victim is true. And if you're having to go to that kind of trouble, there are other ways to more accurately gather information that will yield better results 90% of the time.
I know alot of kids here on /k/ are 3edge5me and like to think the sadistic ideas they come up with will somehow be of use, but all things considered, torture is a pretty inefficient method for intelligence gathering.