I'm going to start machining this probably starting next week. My goal is to sell some later on once I hop all the legal hurdles involved.
>any AR barrel fits
>making one that accepts AK mags as well
>roughly 30 parts including the trigger group
For cost of materials and labour I'd be thinking $1500 USD. Would /k/ have any interest in this?
What are rail protectors? Why would a trigger guard have to be modular? It's a trigger guard and its based on the AR, the only AR parts on it are the barrel, barrel but and disconnected, everything else is brand new
I hope you fail, anon. I really do.
>"hurr, imma invent a new bullpup!"
>"it's gonna be super simple and accept the cool stuff!"
Someone could buy a bullpup tavor and have a guarantee it's not a big pile of shit put together by some kitchen-table gunsmith.
I guess I wouldn't be as caustic to your cause if you tried to push the price under $1000.
Every bullpup that comes out is literally $1500 or up. And for what purpose? Extending a trigger linkage a foot forward?
Fuck all that. Bullpups aren't the wave of the future either. They're functional but clunky at best.
Okay fine, that was a ballpark estimate for price but your criticism isn't helping me make something better. The whole point of this project is to make a cheaper bullpup than the ones being pumped put by the Israelis specifically for a civilian market. Jesus you're salty
Design the lower/stock with standard AR fire control in the rear for the transfer bars and a new recoil system (short carrier) to used inside of a standard AR15 upper receiver pinned on top. Include a rail riser that covers the rear of the upper receiver with a smooth contoured cheek weld surface then brings the top rail up to allow for the mounting of standard AR height sights and optics.
the design looks retarded
How are you achieving a bufferless action? Why does the barrel shroud look proprietary?
How is your trigger gonna work?
I'd rather build my own bulpup riffle out of an hk33 with an electronic trigger
The recoil spring is above the barrel pressed between the piston and upper receiver.
>Recoil spring above the barrel
>because it's a $2 piece of stamped sheet metal to protect the guts, not some $300 troy rail for your precious AR
>dual triggers with a linking bar housed within the lower receiver
Since the cheekpiece is inline with the top rail you will still need a riser to allow you to get sights high enough to use.
With that in mind, if you wanted to stay DI instead of piston you can do a forward recoil spring and guide rod above the gas system like the OA93/96.
>My goal is to sell some later on once I hop all the legal hurdles involved.
plus, why another AR bullpup? Nothing new here.
Give us an 80% milled AK or something. Or a shotgun AR upper that feeds from a side tube.
That looks similar, I'm just looking to make something with a slimmer profile and with as few features outside of the recoil axis as possible. I had to add a pistol grip so I raised the hole for the key higher to compensate for the spread of force
The AR uses the buffer tube as a cheek piece and the recoil is pretty low because everything is relatively in line with it
You're going to want a buffer, you'll likely need to add it either to the top or bottom of the bolt via a slide that connects the rear of the bolt to the front of a buffer assembly, even a gas or hydraulic buffer would work.
Look at the buffer designs of the bullpup SKS, FAMAS, and AUG.
It could be made extremely simple.
Also, make it short-movement gas-piston, or plain gas-piston actuation. DI makes the chamber and BGC extremely carbon ridden, and if you're able to make it relatively clean operating, easy to dmfield strip and maintain it would be marketable beyond just the civilian market.
If you're going to go buffer less you may as well do it in a .308Win/7.62Nato configuration and have it headspace and timed to function properly with both rounds as the dimensions differ by 0.002" and is enough to cause issue with a go/no-go guage set.
Or you could equip it from factory with a muzzle brake.
If you stick with 5.56 I would also suggest making the magwell a modular part that can be swapped out with different magwell housings to allow for caliber change without having to change the entire lower reciever.
Make the barrel seat into a front trunion that is designed for quick change so that the barrel/chamber/trunion assembly can be swapped akin to the M249 and M240B without having to adjust headspace and timing every time you swap barrel, magwell, and bolt-carrier group assemblies to change caliber.
Start with one caliber or two calibers available, and keep the modularity to allow for more optional calibers in the future.
You could even sell it as a caliber change kit that includes a front trunion, barrel, BCG, and magwell in it.
Parts interchangability with the current M4/M16 rifles like youre doing is a good idea for military and civilian marketing as it makes more of the current stock those markets have able to be utilized directly.
I would ensure the trigger group is as close to the current ones as possible for parts interchangability there too. It will have to be different at least slightly due to bullpup design, though the hammer and spring and sears could all be located to the rear and the trigger could actuate a connecting rod system that operates the primary trigger group in the rear
You could make the buffer assembly, if it is to be a spring, onto the side of the rifle, inside of the upper receiver housed in a relatively small hump that goes down the non-dominant side of the weapon.
This sounds like a totally different gun, Just to reiterate, this is not an AR15 or conversion thereof, the receivers just have a similar shape. Words don't do me well, I work better with pictures, sorry
No worries, and I just realized from reading the thread instead of just your OP that you have the buffer assembly already accounted for in an effective way.
I noticed you're not speaking for the weapon as an AR conversion, however I saw yours took the BGC and magazine and trigger housing forms of the AR and wanted to caveat that maintaining interchangability makes it more marketable to the US military and all the civilian AR fags.
Modularity for caliber change without changing out entire receivers, but instead mounting your barrel assemblies and BCGs, and different buffer springs, and magwellS that are necessary for different calibers, adjusting headspace and timing for each caliber once, then being able to hotswap caliber sets for different mission sets and requite men's makes it super marketable to the military as they could have a CQB rifle in a light NATO caliber (5.56x45mm), then ten minutes later have it set up for DMR duties, and ten minutes later have it set for sniper duties with a 24"-30" barrel, in 7.62 NATO or .338 Lapua caliber for those long range shots.
It would be extremely versatile, but as I mentioned, doing so you would be best off starting with a 5.56 NATO and .308Win caliber availability for civilian market and once it is proven and the market grows meeting the needs of other calibers, proving the rifle, then the next military rifle testing battery to see what is the next rifle it's versatility via modularity, with reliability and durability would make it perfect for military marketing, and hopefully give the guys who serve currently a better rifle than the shit-ass M4s and M16s and MK14s they currently use like I did when I was in.
I'm probably thinking too deep but yeah.
The general design is awesome, I'd just suggest making the rifle as cheap, reliable and strong as you can while trying to hit under the $800 MSRP price tag to make it more available.
Once proven, the market would grow, and thus sales would as well.
I see. That would be awesome but i'm only one man with so much money and would love to do a lot of those things but am limited. i'll dump some pics of earlier drafts and cross sections
Like I mentioned earlier, when I bought my block of aluminium (which is roughly enough to make two) it was about 400 bucks. the machine was 5000, cutting tools were about 500 and the software was a lot too. maybe 1500 is too high and i'd probably have more success letting more people have it as opposed to only the middle class haha
Decided to shorten the length of pull after public outcry. I'm 6'8" so I wanted a longer gun but I'll just mill that one out separate
Just make the butt pad on the stock adjustable length for big guys like you
lol i'm trying to fathom a telescoping stock on a bullpup rifle
I've since taken out the top retaining pin because it seemed retarded. It's shaped that way to keep the receivers aligned and i've lengthened the bottom one to hold the trigger pack snugly against the front receiver wall
>literally designed for CQB
>marketing it to your average joe who can't tell an AR from an AK
Go look at the demographic that buys FS2000s, Tavors, PS90s, Augs, etc..., and then ask if they're gonna pay $1500 for your ugly duckly garage built piece of shit.
well if you read a few posts in instead of spamming OP like a mongoloid, youd realize I overbudgeted my estimate because I ordered enough materials for two rifles.
>how the fuck are you going to put your cheek against it with rails in your cheekbone
>what is a fucking scope riser
This is intended as a sporting rifle with a wide enough variety of customization and cutting back on cost where it doesn't matter like having a barrel shroud instead of a fore end that rails can attach to every 6 degrees for tacticality
I keked. It'll probably wind up being more like 800-1000. I did the math again and the aluminium for the upper and lower is around 250, barrel, smaller parts, machining parts are inevitably going to break, etc, etc
>needing a riser to mount optics
You're not putting your cheek above the piston dumbass, ditch the stamped metal handguard and replace it with a keymod rail. It's like you ignored every firearm designed in the last 20 years to feed your tactifudd fantasies. New flash, bubba ain't gonna buy your shitty bullpup when he can buy M&P 15 for $600. He's even less likely to buy it when he realizes he needs a riser to mount his durr huntin optic.
I think the pistol grip should go as close to the magazine as you can manage, then give it an adjustable stock like one of those wire stocks with the rods on the outside of the gun, like an MP5 has.
Some people like short LOP and an adjustable stock appeases those that long long LOP.
Also a shorter trigger linkage is better.
Your top rail should be farther forward, right now it's like at cheek weld location, not where you'd want a sight.
When do you think you'll be getting something like this into the prototype stage?
Also where are you located at? Some buddies and I are planning to get a machine shop set up and start work on a gun company here in Missouri, though it won't go into full swing until I finish college in another 4-5 years.
>not having a riser lying around somewhere
The AR15 user rests their cheek on the buttstock which is literally the same height and similar contour to this one. I extruded the curvature off the buttstock o to the top of the receiver. Same contour and height, just mount your rear sight a little forward. Plus would you rather buy an expensive keymod replacement or a bunch of cheap handguards in a 5 pack or something in case one rusts or something. Keymkd or any rail doesn't provide any protection to the guts if its perforated in any way other than from hitting on stuff
Could you potentially have a mag release like pic related that can be worked by pushing it back with the shooting hand's thumb? It seems like it would be a little easier to operate than having to use your free hand to drop the mag, you could also drop it while your free hand is retrieving another mag.
Keep in mind these aren't criticisms as I'm asking these questions, just wanna clarify things before I make suggestions:
>How, exactly, are you handling ejection?
>How long is you barrel on there?
>adjustable gas settings?
In general I just wanna know more.
Having your gun in America would make things a lot easier in the long run. because changes are your design wont fly with our import standards, and definitely won't comply with the regulation that x amount of parts must be US made, but importing it from the US to Canada would probably be easier.
And cutting your product off from the largest consumer of firearms in the world is an awful idea.
it's a shortened AR bolt so the same as the AR would, , trying a smaller brass deflector though. THe barrel on that one is 16 inch that I got from GrabCAD because the barrel is a bitch to make on any modelling software. I'm hoping the adjustable gas block on there works too
I hadn't considered that. I just figured the shooter's hand would be back there to catch the mag so leaving the catch nearby wouldn't be too hard
1. I don't go around bashing my keymod rails on shit
2. I'd rather have a keymod fore-end and mount optics to it than a clunky riser
3. I would raise the height of the rail, since the rail height is inline with the receiver, it'll be hard to aim with normal AR irons sight (google Tavor iron sight height)
4. your front handguard is too short, some guy with big meaty hands is gonna burn his hand on the gas block, extend it to the bottom rail. Ditch the railed gas block, use a keymod fore-end, and extend it to the current position of the bottom rail
Like I said, I would be up for selling some designs for an american company to make for a cut of the profit
I'm not sure. The way I figure is that the barrel and gas system experience most of the pressure so I'm not too worried. The barrels are made by who ever you want to pick from but NEA makes decent ones. I have 2 that I've shot into the ground.
The upper receiver is obviously going to experience a lot of gas pressure so at the very least, I used the minimum thickness on the AR15 upper. Some places I went thicker because I wasn't too sure
I agree with the burning of one's hand on the gas block/ barrel, i'm going to address that. Remember though, this is just a prototype, I'm going to test one for a while and improve on it, maybe send one to demolition ranch to kill or something
That's a crazy prospect but short of using aircraft cable or something to compensate for a "dynamic" trigger I couldn't think of a way at this point in how I could do that. Do you mean the whole trigger group or just the pistol grip and the trigger stays in the same place?
yeah that sounds really complicated. telescoping trigger group and receiver doesn't sound fun.
My problem is that for my rifle to be a legal bullpup, the firearms office said it has to be integral to the function of the gun for some stupid reason so if it telescopes outwards it would defeat the purpose
Don't worry, my first few drafts of this were simply an ar conversion kit with a 9 inch length of pull. Once I get my business license, I can make and sell prohibited firearms which is what those would probably be. Or I could just make one and send it in for examination/classification and they might just pass it
Yeah. Have an old AR BCG with the key busted off? Buy a new key with operating rod combo and cut the back end off and away you go.If you have an adjustable gas block with that too, you can have a totally bufferless system with a folding stock on your AR should you choose.
Make it less than 1k and fix the forend and you should be good. Hell make it out of stamped metal and just a round forend that can come off. ship it with a cheap qpq 16 inch barrel and an a2 flash hider plus stanag mag. Dont overcomplicate it. There are corporations that do this and are better than you at it.
as of now, yes but that's one of the things I want to fix for the next version I make. I'm not making any changes to this one until I make it or else I'll get carried away
The charging handle doubles as the "sleeve" for the gas tube and is connected to the operating rod which is collected to the carrier. Kind of convoluted but I want to make a small sleeve or something for the charging handle that sits in front of the gas sleeve.
I still need to figure out where to put the trigger spring too. Either inside the trigger pack behind the sear or up front behind the trigger
haha thanks thats awesome. I don't know how that hadn't crossed my mind. I need to fix that stupid hollow body under the fore end there too, I just started generating toolpaths already and I can't change the geometry without affecting those operations.
no no thats fine, reciprocating is good, can do chamber checks and force the bolt back into battery, but make it an FAL handle so its not so big 'n scary
in what way? Wouldn't it just throw it as far back to 6 o'clock as possible? Like back at a nearly 90 degree angle?
There, no more burnt fingers and you can slap it like in die hard
they normally ding the side of the rifle up and put brass marks everywhere, throw brass on you, depends of ammo of course, i mean you are trying to cut cost just make it an addon, something i can just pay an extra 8 bucks to screw on to it
Ayyy you added my HK slap idea... k next up, M-lok the shit outta of it.
It's challenging to build around the spring on top unless I have a housing for it which I probably should but that would involve moving the hole in the upper higher or shaving the lugs on the barrel nut down to clear it. The tension in the metal is supposed to keep the shroud pinned against the sides of the receiver walls so you can just squeeze it hard enough to remove it. Every dimension in these models is very deliberate so moving stuff around now is kind of hard
I'll add something like that to consider for future revision
I'm using solidworks 2013 with HSMworks as my CAM. Just got Catia too so i'm starting to learn that. I initially started with blueprints of an AR lower but since have only really ended up using a few superficial dimensions. I got those drawings from firearmsblueprints.net kind of a shady looking site but I subscribed and downloaded everything before my subscription expired
I wanted to do a dump recently of dokument and engineering drawings for 50-60 some guns but dropbox kept freezing for some reason. will try again soon
charging handle like pic related would be sweet, instead of the fold forward flapping back n forth, flip up vertical like galil does no flappy
k, heres an idea.. but the spring behind the BCG like an AK
OP, this is awesome. Ignore the haters -- you just designed your own gun in CAD, something very few people can do or will do in their lifetime.
A quick bit of advice on product design: you need to stop making changes and just build the damn thing already. It's going to be hard, and you're going to quickly figure out that you did a lot of things really wrong, and later down the road you'll figure out you did a great job on a lot of other things. But there's no way to figure that stuff out if all you're gonna do is stare at your CAD software. Just focus on finishing that prototype, so you can learn from it and head back to the drawing board. When you start redesigning parts of it, you need to be more innovative than other gun manufacturers. Easier said than done, but you have a huge advantage over many manufacturers because you're a one-man team. You work on everything, rather than just one tiny part, so you have a different perspective than most.
Marketing and money will come later, when you can actually build a gun that doesn't fuck up all the time (trust me, yours will). Also, never doubt the importance of form, even on a firearm. Yes, I agree that function>form, but form is what captures peoples' attention and creates an iconic weapon.
Keep up the great work.
thanks man, never thought of it like that. I wish more of the software was easily accessible to the average joe. I just get what I need from mcdonalds wifi but i believe /k/ has the power to make insanity a reality
is that free? I was gonna make a bunch of emails at starbucks and download free autodesk inventor trials after I taught myself 3dFusion.
Do you by chance have a list of those drawings? I REALLY need sks and FAL and SVT40 dimensions, I've been brainstorming a modern sks with an FAL recoil system and 308AR barrel for a while now and need to figure out rimmed cartridge feeding/chambering/extraction
+1 to you anon, I love you and OP
the ARAK-21 is a self contained upper for the AR, uses an AK piston action, you just need to steal their BCG design.
I mean, some dude already made ur gun using that upper
yep, just need to convert them from PDF. I dont have SVT ones but I have an SVT and i've started measuring the receiver with calipers and trying to recreate it coincidentally
HSM works isn't free, get the 2016 trial through a mirror and get the xforce Autodesk 2016 (or whatever year matches software version) crack software. your computer will flag it as spam but download anyways. you know it's the right one if the exe plays some midi when you open it.
The only SKS schematics I have is a 16 page manual for conversion to take AK mags
>tfw I'm getting a b.s. in mechanical engineering and taking gunsmithing courses after college so I can do what OP's doing right now
Dude, would you ever think of offering someone an internship or something? Because holy fuck.
I'm broke as fuck nigga, all I have is a CNC router, a couple of Dewalt drills, and my laptop. Pretty one-man operation for now but i'm open to collaboration when I have a foundation. I'm kind of going into this blind because I don't really know who to ask questions on the specifics of the processes
also you don't need pre reqs to do what I'm doing. I have an arts degree but probably going to college next year. Don't let people who can't influence you tell you what you need to do what. If you want something, take it
lol sweet, great minds m8
thanks this is great, i had no idea how i was gonna get my CAD fix
It is proving impossible for me to find sks dimensions online and nobody I know has an sks
lol i did respond dude, and so did someone else 308Win is rated for higher pressure than 762Nato, and they have different shoulder angles. according to SAAMI either or will still chamber and fire the other, but they are not the same. you can think of the 308 as a 7.62x51mm+P if you like
i mean its based on the AK which an patent on it has expired years ago, plus the Serbu SU-15 has the samething https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvsIMTbcSM
>nobody I know has an sks
What planet do you live on?
I'm thinking of getting some kind of laser scanning software because solidworks has a plugin for it and I don't trust myself measuring down to hundredths of an inch
just to warn you though. cracking those softwares is a bitch. The instructions are poorly written but it makes sense once youre done
I don't have too many friends into guns, and the ones that are, are not into milsurp.
If there's a FabLab near you, they might have a scanner you can borrow, but they
tend to not like firearms, my plan is buy the cheapest shittiest barreled SKS receiver I can find, remove the barrel, and scan the receiver by itself.
only hiccup is that I need dimensions for both stamped and milled receivers
Ive got nothing but time, If i cant figure out crappy crack instructions, I shouldn’t bother attempting this build anyway haha
hey OP, a cartridge to consider would be the 375 reaper, 9.5mm bullet in a cut down 308 case to fit in an ar15 action. the company that 'invented' it ran itself into the ground, and the ammo and barrel supplier might just be sitting on the stock, when you get your prototype up and functioning, and want to pursue an interesting business opportunity, I would give them a call
anyway, it takes an 800 series ar15 bolt, hits high pressures, and would be a one-shot cqb cartridge, perfect for a bullpup
Op it's a bullpup so you need to think about arm placement and the shell eject trajectory- right now it looks like it could seriously fuck up someones arm if they fire without sighting, which is what this little bullpup would excel at. Slant the eject port up a bit maybe like the F-88 steyr
I think it looks cool dude. But hey even if you fail as a business man you can always hope that Ian's son will talk about how cool it was 60 years later.
>I'm going to start machining this probably starting next week. My goal is to sell some later on once I hop all the legal hurdles involved.
So are you putting off your plans on moving to Japan with your closest friends to study video game design?
The lower receiver portion and linkage is patented M17S design.
The recoil/buffer assembly is patented M17S design.
The piston system (somewhat) and the handguard and barrel assemblies differentiate it, however.
I still think that K&M would sue the fuck out of you simply because they paid too much to Bushmaster for the design.
And they would probably win, because I mean just look at the lower receiver and location of controls it's almost identical.
Honestly I think its a great concept and would be competitive with alot of bullpups on the market in theory. Everything you have seems like it would work well, except I dont see the purpose for the handguard if it interrupts the rail on the upper receiver, especially considering you are not going to be grabbing that area anyways.
Now unless you have some knowledge of mass-production and firearms-engineering I wish you luck.
There's something you don't understand. I don't give a fuck what some company tries to do to me. They're not getting a penny from me because this is my design. Not theirs. These will be made and sold commercially without issues
If a big company wants to sue you into oblivion, they can.
Even if its retarded... You have to pay for lawyers and you will have legal fees. They can drain you of your life savings in a heartbeat, even if they have no actual case.
Whatever, just looking at the receiver innards I can tell you that it's already drastically different in terms of functionality. I seriously doubt anybody would be able to make a case against this. I have a full stack of papers showing the development. Just because the receiver is a similar shape means shit. RFB, Desert tech MDR, M17, they all look similar
I'm doing it for myself, so I'll understand the science and math behind weapons technology and manufacturing a bit better. Other than that, it's setting me up for a pretty good backup plan if a business just doesn't work out.
If you look at a G3 or MP5 retractable, that should give you an idea on how to make that work. I think you have some good ideas there. I would also look into getting your SOT if you do not have one already. That way no black helicopters are buzzing your house.
Ditto on that email list.
I may not have mentioned that I want my stamped sheet metal receiver to be open-source and patent-free. If you want, we can run ideas by one another?
So while we're all here, what about making a bullpup that uses as many AR parts as possible? What if you used a pistol buffer with a standard upper, then designed a new lower that was set up like a bullpup (the idea being that it would somehow encapsulate or attach to the buffer to create the butt)?
Or has someone already done this?
flatwire spring in the buffer is necessary, allows for a shorter buffer tube like the troy or NEA wire stock one, iirc pistol buffer tubes are the same size ar regular ones, they just lack indexing for stocks