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Hollis vs Holder machine gun case
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons

Thread replies: 98
Thread images: 6
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1681489_NFA_cases__Hollis_and_Watson_v__Lynch___So_who_wants_to_see_an_approved_form_1__p_160.html&page=161


On January 15, 2016, undersigned was provided a copy of a Form 1, approved on September 5, 1986, for a machinegun to an individual and not a governmental entity. This new fact betrays the Defendants’ claims of never approving an application for a non-governmental entity for a post-May 19, 1986 machinegun, and further, demonstrates that the BATFE has in fact allowed the registrations of post-May 19, 1986 machineguns to other than governmental entities.

Well...The ATF has really positioned themselves into a corner.

Spread the News, and Donate if you can.

https://hellerfoundation.org/about/hollis-vs-holder/

Update New Form 1 found from 2005!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/296125465/2005-Approved-Form-1
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soooo....is it safe to get our hopes up?
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Can we freak out now and start saving money for a fully auto M31 yet?
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>>28628656
No. It's a bad case founded on a bad interpretation of the law. This will make it harder to repeal the NFA, not easier.

Resist the Siren-Song of irrational exuberance.
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>>28628673
guy you are replying to, im a bit of a newfag, but would you mind explaining your reasoning. i aint to law smart
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>>28628689
He probably thinks it will set a precident they can use to blanket deny challenges to the NFA.

>>28628673
How in the fuck will this make it harder to repeal the NFA? Are you that god damn LawFag trip that shitposted non stop in the origonal threads?
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>>28628673

>implying there's a good way to interpret law

Here's my interpretation...

There are over ten thousand federal laws, and thousands more city, state, and county laws. There are so many laws it's impossible to count them and God knows how many felonies the average American commits. I'm curious if police officers and politicians commit more felonies than the average American.

When a law is passed, that means that countless people are already violating that law- otherwise that law wouldn't have been passed because nobody would see any need for it. That means every time a law is passed there's a huge community of active lawbreakers, and it's easy for someone to associate with them and get arrested because they weren't in the community long enough to know they should have kept whatever they were doing low key. It's basically entrapment.

Every American is felonious, and the system is an inescapable monster that throws the book at everyone.

How's that interpretation?

Accurate?
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>>28628698
Stare Decisis. Ie, letting the decision stand. The Supremes never but never reverse themselves unless it's something downright apocalyptic or causes a sea-change in civil society. The court cases that laid the groundwork for the Civil War and Civil Rights movement come to mind. Therefore, when a law survives a challenge, it sets precedent and it cannot be challenged in the same way again. Precedent must also be factored into similar decisions on similar matters. So if the NFA is strengthened, other gun laws across the nation might also be strengthened.

Precedent is a thing. When you set precedent, it needs to be factored into all subsequent rulings. His is a due process argument. The Government is going to argue that they have remit to grant or revoke these things as needs must. If they win (and they will), the NFA has withstood a legal challenge and been strengthened. If Hollis wins, he'll get his stamp and the NFA will have been heard before the supreme court without getting taken down and it will then be strengthened.

So you shouldn't be rooting for Hollis. You should be trying to strangle him in his sleep to stop this thing.

>>28628707
Try worthless, and sophistic. Go to a lawyer and try to file a case and see how long he doesn't laugh at you. Does that interpretation get precedent made in court or does it make you feel smarter?

I'm betting it's the latter.
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>>28628166
I just we don't have to buy cuckstamps to modify our own property anymore.
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>>28628792
>the only answer is to bend over for your Uncle Sam
There must be a better option you believe in, because what you've written is bullshit.
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>>28628792

>Does that interpretation get precedent made in court

Isn't there legal precedence for literally EVERYTHING???

I'm saying our justice system is broken. It can no longer function according to what I've seen. Broken on paper, of course.
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>>28628792
you're a stupid faggot, court rulings having no bearing on legislative measures repealing laws.

ass tons of people were thrown in prison for violating the Volstead act and lost their appeals, that didn't make the Volstead act unrepealable.
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>>28628792
At that point it will not matter, hang the court.
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>>28628792
Here's a guy who actually knows what he's talking about.

Precedent is like 90% of what lawyers do, and depending on how high this case goes, a bad ruling could cement NFA into our country's history for a long time in the foreseeable future.

You don't fuck around with cases you know will fail because every time you do, you make it harder for the next similar case to even be heard.

Precedent is no fucking joke, along with intent this is like first day law school shit.
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>>28628875
Actually, the answer is to keep on fighting in court by picking good cases that have a chance of winning. The Aurora AWB case? That was a good case. It didn't get picked up. There are several more like it working it's way through the courts right now. It will not prevail in another circuit court. I guaranfucking-tee that. Eventually, it will come to a split decision and the Supremes will be forced to take it up because different parts of the country will be working under different precedent.

>>28628889
That thing we hold so dear? That ideal we strive to maintain called Equal protection under the law? Precedence is a key part of making that work. It keeps the court from applying the law differently to different people.

In theory.

>>28628889
Then I misspoke. I should have said overturned.

>>28628942
Because you don't have a legal argument. You have a vague complaint about a thing called law pollution. That's not anything like a case. Now got off of your fucking high horse. You look like an asshole.
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>>28629079
precedence is totally fucked, the courts have already set precedence that women can rape underaged boys and make them pay child support.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm
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>>28629017
he's retarded, the aim isn't to have the courts strike down the NFA because everyone already knows that the supreme court will never entirely repeal a piece of legislation passed by congress regardless of how dubious of the circumstances it was passed.

SCOTUS has already upheld feature bans and full auto is most definitely a bannable feature according to SCOTUS.
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My question and I only want a yes or no vote from everyone is do you think we will ever get newly manufactured full autos?
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>>28629117
No.
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>>28629117
you can easily make one of your own and the feds will never know about it until it's too late.
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>>28629108
The NFA was amended in 1986 to close the Machine Gun registry. Hollis' argument is strictly one that applies to himself and no one else. This entire argument is academic anyway because, as I stated before, he's not going to win.
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>>28629154
>This entire argument is academic anyway because, as I stated before, he's not going to win.
For those of us who don't speak legalese (and who may or may not read at a 10th grade level), can you explain why he's not going to win? Thanks in advance, anon.
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>>28629178
What he's doing is arguing that the ATF took his toys away when the ATF has the legal remit to take his toys away.
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>>28629102
Oh, and that's one guy who got fucked by a shitty judge. The alternative is much worse.

The alternative is world where every judge is given carte-blanche to fuck whomever they please regardless of previous rulings. That ruling isn't a feature, it's a bug.
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>>28629190
>legal remit
Was completely following you up until this point. L-legal remit?
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>>28629252
fancy government talk for we can do things because we can kill you if you don't do as we say.
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>>28629117
Yes if we win.
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>>28629017
So, you're saying that you have to wait for one good case instead of having several high profile small cases that start discussion and change people's minds so that case is actualyl winnable?

If something is wrong you stand up for it, and more people will follow your lead.

Judiciaries make rulings based on fact and cultural climate. The more cases that get brought against the NFA make it more important that the NFA gets reviewed, because a lot of court cases against a peice of legislation can mean it is not functioning as intended (the government liked the law, but the people didn't)
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>>28629017
SCOTUS has literally reversed it's own decisions numerous times. You literal gaping ass faggot.
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>>28629354


Nolo has a 2005 approval letter, and supposedly many more. What he's going for now is discovery. if he can prove the ATF is not playing fair, he can get some shit done.
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https://www.scribd.com/doc/296125465/2005-Approved-Form-1

2005 approval
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>>28629370
So Nolo isn't proving that the NFA is retarded, he is proving that the administration tereof is retarded.

Welcome to every government body mostly ever.

So the ATF will apologize, review its practices, maybe, MAYBE, slap a few wrists and sacrifice one scapegoat, and then this will become pic related.

It will become cannon fodder for Conservatives saying gun legislation eneds to be reviewed, but that is also fucking nothing weighed against all the Sandy Hooks.

Opening gun legislation could be pretty dangerous.
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>>28629374
So was this issued erroneously, or was the person highly influential?
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>>28629387
>>28629393
this isnt about proving it's bullshit right now. Its about getting discovery. He believes if he can get discovery on the NFA database he can prove that post 86' machinegun stamps were issued to people. If a bunch of influential people have shit they aren't supposed to, which he believes they do? Then he has a few things he can do. If he finds out that lets say, 250 random fucks have gotten MGs past 86' he has some different shit he can do.

Right now we need to score discovery to know whats possible. Without discovery the entire thing dies. He has some pretty good ammo to convince a judge that discovery is appropriate, but that MUST come first.

Could, theoretically this open up the MG registry? Yes.

Could, theoretically this open up the entire NFA for appeal? Yes.

Either of those two things are moot, and not worth getting excited over at this point however. No discovery, no case.

If he's right, and the ATF has approved a number of machineguns post 86' though? The ATF is going to have the eyeballs chewed from it's face before they skullfuck it to death.
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>>28629416
>If he's right, and the ATF has approved a number of machineguns post 86' though? The ATF is going to have the eyeballs chewed from it's face before they skullfuck it to death.

So the ATF will apologize, review its practices, maybe, MAYBE, slap a few wrists and sacrifice one scapegoat, and then this will become pic related.
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>>28629430
Possible, but not probable. It'd be excellent grounds to get this launched before the supreme court.
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>>28629436

>implying the supreme court would even take it up
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Not rich enough rich guy is ruining it for all the real rich guns who can get their machine guns illegally.

Unfortunately, all those legally acquired machine guns were lost in yachting accidents so you cannot take them back mr. ATF

Unless he's hoping that when he ruins it for the other rich guys, they'll take his side.
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>>28629430

You're retarded if you think the ATF can possibly convince anyone this was a mistake.

Hughes Amendment says machineguns cannot be registered after May of 1986. Period. No "unless," "with exception to," or "if"

How are they going to justify not pursing these post-86 civilian MGs when they had them on fucking record?

Oh, and do you think the NRA, GOA, SAF and NSSF are just going sit on the side lines and watching this shit fly?
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>>28629525
We know feinstein has a rare animal called a California CCW, how awesome would it be if she had machineguns too? Imagine best case scenerio, and we find a fuckton of politically plugged in people have MGs.
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>>28629598
I doubt she actually carries though. Dumb bitch would probably shoot her self or one of the poor unfortunate crackheads she defends.
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>>28628792
>precedent is a thing

so is fear of pissing off millions of americans.

this country continues to teeter on the edge of massive civil conflict. After half a century people are discovering their rights were taken and they want them back, either the government is going to relinquish those rights or we are going to take them, there is no remaining middle ground.

Its already started.
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>>28629688
There will never be an organized insurrection in this country. As long as the government isn't stereotypical best korea dystopia or outright fascist everyone will be content with browsing YouTube or watching another generic police procedural tv show while eating a fuckton of sweetened meat. There will never be another civil war because people are too comfortable and the government knows better than to disrupt that overtly
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When will the fire rise, brothers?
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>>28628792
>>28628792
Last I remember reading the breifs etc the case is not challenging NFA directly so hard to say it strengthens it if it is never an explored directly.

To my above point, you yourself say his argument is due process based, not that the NFA is unconstitutional.
>>28629430
To not add fuel to the getting hopes up fire we also have executive privledge being overuled for fast and furious. 2 very damaging things skeletons from the past coming out about atfs involvement in fast and furious and approving illegal mgs could finally be enough to do more than slap some wrists.
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>>28628707
good morning, sunshine! you're just now waking up to the fact that:

they dont pass laws they expect you to abide by,
they pass laws they expect you to break.
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>>28629688
you must be over 18 to use 4chan
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>>28629190
SHALL
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>>28630136
NAWT
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>>28630325
PASS
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>>28628792
>The court cases that laid the groundwork for the Civil War and Civil Rights movements come to mind.
I don't mean to be edgy in any case whatsoever, but who's to imply that this won't lead to a civil rights like movement where people OC infront of their state capitols and defy the state with (Non-violent) proyests. This is already being seen in Oregon over jailing ranchers a second time for the same felonies. (Double jeopardy.) Give it time and I won't be surprised if in my state (NJ) I see my neighbors go to Trenton with arms in hand saying to bring down the fascist goverment we have here.
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>>28628698
He's probably an ATF plant trying to break up support.
Either that, or a current Pre-86 owner.
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>>28630663

Maybe they should make lightning links on the steps of the capital
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>>28630745
Would be funny.
But really though, I meant in the next few years and in general, not necessarily just the court case itself.
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>>28629723
there have been 2 small scale ones in recent history
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>>28630731
Pre 86 owners are such tard.
40k for a rifle? How fuckin stupid?
I don't feel bad for them, you were dumb enough to pay an absurd amount for a rifle, deal with your bad investment and stop lobbying for bullshit laws that protect said investment
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>>28629934
take your heart meds grandpa
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>>28629354
That's not how legal precedent works. God damn it. And if you are going to handwave away the impact of losing this case, as he is all but guaranteed to do, you have no business opening your mouth about law.
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>>28629688
Fuck off, underage retard
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>>28629211
yea except the supreme court refused to take the appeal case
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>>28629525
uh hello? this is the same atf that illegally sold full auto weapons to mexican cartels.
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>>28629598
Cali CCW's aren't actually that rare.
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soundtrack while browsing the forums this lawsuit came from: https://soundcloud.com/hfn-music/lydmor-bon-homme-trampoline-1
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>>28631194
Depends on the County... Ventura County here 805

Freaking damn near impossible to get a CCW. You need to write an essay defending why you need a CCW and it has to be legit like I work Security or carry money/jewelry for work.

Don't even talk about the Valley or San Fernando area. Its still out of Los Angeles and its damn near impossible there.
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>>28629117
Yes and fuck you I'll tell you why.

We all know prices on legal MG's keep going up and up thus there is obviously increasing demand and someday we will reach a breaking point where that demand must be taken care of somehow. One of the possible outcomes is the government legalizes MG's again. Just like it did with alcohol, swear words in movies and no doubt marijuana soon.
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>>28631630
> an essay as to why you need a self defense weapon
Is this fucking high school?
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>>28631744
Totally not shitting you, they require a damn essay. And you can't say because 2nd amendment either. I've been wanting to get my CCW but certain jobs I've applied for ask me if I have tried to get it and I'm concerned it'll look bad if I try and get denied.
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>>28631630
805 fag here. I can confirm in Santa Barbara county you basically have to know someone (Sheriff) and it's bull shit. There is something like 35ccws.
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>>28628698
No. But maybe you should take heed and listen when people are trying to tell you something instead of trying to shoot the messenger.

>>28630731
>>28630805
>He's probably an ATF plant trying to break up support.
>Either that, or a current Pre-86 owner.
Nigga please. I was struggling with the intricacies of not shitting myself in 1986 and my father built cabinets for a living. To top it off, I don't live in a class 3 state. I was never going to own a full auto.

I want to see gun control go down in flames but that doesn't change the fact that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
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>>28629416
true.
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>>28631867
Shut up Alex.
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>>28628166
its hollis vs lynch which im still waiting for retrial, which the first trail didn't go anywhere because literally the "ATF said we can and it was dismissed."
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>>28630663
Its not double jeopardy. Quit being retarded.

They were convicted of a crime with mandatory minimum sentences. The judge was a softy and said the mand min was too long. Feds appealed and won, so longer sentence was approved. Happened that they had finished their shorter sentence, so that time served was taken away from the 5 year sentence they should have gotten in the first place.

Don't start fires on federal land you don't own.
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>>28634493
They didn't though. When are back fires to stop a fire terrorism.
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>>28629723
People seldom take to arms for any but reasons of utter desperation.

Unless enough people are literally starving, it Ain't Gonna Happen™.

6 guys in a wildlife preserve in West Bumblefuck do not a revolution make.
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>>28631782
I had to write a letter to the issuing judge as to why I needed to carry concealed in NY. This was a little upstate ~60 miles from the city. It was fucking bullshit, pretty much felt like a hs essay.
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>>28634493
Double jeopardy also includes double punishment, it isn't just double trials.
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>>28634610
2 separate incidents of arson.
'backstopping' to save silage putting firefighters at risk, when there was a burn ban in place.
burn to cover up poaching.
both burns lit up federal property, which they don't own.
All of this already litigated. You can say whatever shit you want, but they were convicted, lost their appeals, and are in prison where they belong. In short, I'm right, you're wrong.
pretty shitty characters
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>>28634746
It would, but its single fucking punishment.

Thank god none of you actually work with the law.

Sentencing guidelines were 5 years, and that's what they got. It was just broken up into 2 chunks because they appealed the sentence.
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>>28634746
>>28630663
Muh 'I get all my legal info from reading red state and unsourced internet posts about legal cases, while I really got a D- in civics and have no idea how the world fucking works'

>you should go join the guys in Oregon, they might try to hire you as legal counsel.

>but they have to pay you in dildos that they get from 'supporters'
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>>28634767
No it was broken up because judge 1 says this is enough then judge 2 came and said no it wasn't thiiis is enough.
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>>28634814
>that's how an appeal works
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>>28634814
Wow. The rare breed of underage faggot so dumb that he could under no circumstances score a 5 on an AP Civics test
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>>28631029
If anti-gunners are so sure he'll lose the case then why doesn't scotus just hear it and get it over with?
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I hope this wins
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>>28634699
It's super easy in Ohio
>>Deputy: Did you take class and shoot gun?
>>Me: yes
>>Deputy: Application?
>>Me: yes
>>Deputy: picture and finger print?
>>Me: yes
>>Deputy: Did you bring money?
>>Me: yes
>>Deputy: Ok, we'll print it and call you.
Three weeks later picked it up
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>>28628792
>http://www.scribd.com/doc/296125465/2005-Approved-Form-1
>>28628698

A M16 is obviously a Militia weapon. If this loses in the supreme court is will be quite a blow, but I don't expect America to last much longer anyway due to the demographics, so might as well go down fighting in court.
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>>28637059
m-16 and full auto in general contribute to the common defense and are in common use under MILLER
not to mention the dept Homeland Security has official documents stating that FA is useful of personal defense

the government will literally have to argue that the HLS isn't a competent authority on defense (when DEFENSE in in their fucking name)
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>>28629416
I highly doubt the ATF will get in trouble look at "Fast & Furious" holder fucked up, showed up to court with 500 pages of blacked squares, and got a slap on the wrist. the ATF is LAW
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>>28637853
yeah, what ever happened with fast and furious?
last thing i remember was a judge overruled the executive privilege
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>>28628707
>I'm curious if police officers and politicians commit more felonies than the average American.

Why do you think politicians get butthurt about the NSA? It's because the NSA catches them being corrupt.
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>>28631194
San Francisco issues one for in 2015. One.
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>>28639549
Holder is still in contempt.
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>>28629740
When you decide to start them brother
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>>28640075
this
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>>28639654
Because that counties sheriff is a faggot. CCW issue is up to the sheriff of whatever county you live in in CA. Some hand them out like candy on Halloween, some go full corruption and only issue them to friends, family, and those who make generous donations to the sheriff come election time.
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You guys have been going on about this for a long ass time. Its almost cute you have so much hope you can gun down school kids and government officials more efficiently
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>>28628166
This gets better and better.
Thread replies: 98
Thread images: 6
Thread DB ID: 452945



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