>>28493069 Authorization to Carry can be issued, but is limited to "protection of life, that an individual be in imminent danger and that police protection is insufficient." good luck with that, or for armored car personnel under penal code 98-207(3) subsection a), for wildlife protection (while working) and occupational trapping under subsections b) and c)
>owning get r/pal get membership @ range buy pistol get att collect pistol transport only within limits of att, shoot only at range >carry ILLEGAL though people do it if they're in the middle of nowhere, or willing to risk being rudely penetrated by the long dick of the law
>>28493150 it's ultimately up to the judge, but the Canadian judges have a tendency to be anti gun (a case where a man was indicted because he "accidentally" hit a thief that was (from what I recall) riding off in one of his ATV's and the guy was in pursuit with his rifle when he hit the guy while he was using the gun "in a show of force"
You can consider this to be an anecdote considering I don't have the info on the case, but even then, its clear that if there is a reasonable doubt that you didn't need to use the gun for self defense, you're fucked
>>28493134 You pretty much are bound by duty to retreat. There is no set in stone "you can employ lethal force in self defense" and expect to be taken to task if all other options are not taken according to the magistrate that hears your case, so pretty much a knife is already in your belly and you weren't able to choke the intruder with your intestines so you had to resort to a gun.
Read up on David Chen and the Lucky Moose where he and his employees apprehended a thief in their store, the bad guy plead guilty, and the employees were charged with kidnapping and assault.
there was an instance where a man's house was broken into, and he ran down to his basement, unlocked his safe, got out his gun, loaded it and shot the intruder. during the trial the RCMP didn't believe him, so they timed him redoing the events of the break-in to see if he really could get to his safely stored firearms quickly enough. i think he was acquitted in the end.
then there was another guy who's house had been broken into a few times, so he moved his guns into his bedroom or something like that. while they were technically secured, locked innasafe and such, he made them so readily accessible that the court believed he was laying in wait of the criminals. aka he was planning to shoot them when they came back and trying to make it seem like he was acting lawfully.
then there was this other case where this 80 year old wheelchair bound guy shot and killed his daughters boyfriend because he was abusing her so badly the old guy thought he was going to kill her next time it happened. he was convicted but only got a few years probation or something like that.
>>28493192 >reasonable doubt that you didn't need to use the gun for self defense, you're fucked
pretty much this
s.34 of the ccc lays out a bunch of different factors that help the court determine whether the accused's acts were justifiable as self defence. eg its much more reasonable for an old granny to use lethal force against an unarmed intruder than it would be for an MMA master to use lethal force, because the MMA guy could have probably overpowered the attacker empty handed, or maybe with a baseball bat or something.
bottom line, you're better off buying security cameras, better locks, an alarm system and other deterrents than figuring out ways to circumvent the law
>>28493212 >so pretty much a knife is already in your belly and you weren't able to choke the intruder with your intestines so you had to resort to a gun.
Not quite that bad. You're allowed "reasonable" force, which means the other party must escalate the situation before a firearm is considered reasonable. B&E is an escalation, so someone attacking you in your own home is two escalations and pretty much an allowed situation for using a firearm in self defence.
very few criminals would do a b/e theft armed with guns, becauase if they get caught the penalty skyrockets compared to a classic b/e. the safest thing to do is just hide out somewhere in your house and call the police.
because we don't have the same population density and most civilians aren't armed, the officers here are generally much less twitchy than those in the usa, and the response times are better even in big cities. you can pretty well count on them showing up on time. and, living in a rural environment is a defence in itself; few home invasions occur because the criminals don't have many exit routes and there's usually less worth stealing anyway.
just dont live in a shithole like edmonton or winnipeg. there's a reason crazy tok guy exists.
>>28493105 >so not all guns are banned. Further details, anyone? Not all here is the list of banned by names http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-462/fulltext.html *Note that part 2.1 CZ and Swiss arms was repealed... for now.
>Short list of prohibited firearms. Handguns in 25 and 32 Caliber (expect one type used in Olympic shooting) Handguns with barrel length less than 110mm (4.2") Select fire and firearms converted from select fire. Anything mentioned by name in the previous link.
>Restricted firearms (Requires RPAL can only be shot at licensed ranges) Handguns that aren't prohibited AR-15 (any model) Short barrel semi-auto rifle/shotgun (> 480mm/ ~18.5" barrel length) Short rifles/shotguns (>660mm/~26" Overall length) basically short shotguns with folding stocks are the few things that fall into this category.
>Non-Restricted firearms (Requires PAL can be shot on private property [or crown land] in areas that allow the discharge of firearms basically rural land) Semi auto with an OAL of +26" and barrel of +18.5" Manual action with an OAL of +26" (bolt, level, break, pump)
>Antique (No licence required not considered a firearm unless used in a crime.) See the attached chart because its complicated as fuck.
>>28493531 Non restricted is anything that doesn't fall into restricted category. It can be anything from single shot shotguns to FN FS2000 pic related.
Yes prohibited cannot be obtained anymore. You needed to own one before the ban. With the exception of 12.6 prohibited handguns which can be passed down directly in your family. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/collector-collecteur-eng.htm
You seem impressively knowledgeable, Anon... what would you recommend as a discrete, legally obtainable, restricted handgun for theoretical worst-case scenario home defense in this country? I'm in Toronto, if it makes a difference.
I know absolutely nothing about guns, and would prefer something as easy to use and maintain as possible. Would be very grateful for a recommendation. Open to suggestions from anyone else as well.
>>28493612 Depends on budget handguns are not cheap here you may be better off going with a shotgun.
Anyway heres cost breakdown
Course $150 ($260 for combo pal and rpal course) Licence $60 (+$20 for rpal)
Cheap shotgun setup $300-500 Cheap handgun setup $500-800 (Unless you want to go crazy tok guy route then $180-$200)
Cheap shotguns Remington 870 and clones $300-500 Mossberg 500 and clones $400-500? (Not sure on prices for these)
Cheap handguns I would recommend Ruger SR9 (Cheap and reliable) ~$500 Glock 9mm not big on glocks so not sure which model is the shortest we can get here (Expensive but reliable cheap mags) ~$800 Tokarev (Cheap and cheap ammo, thin profile) ~$180 1911 (Limited to 10 rounds for handguns so .45 is a more viable option than in the US) $300-500
>>28493630 >Ruger LCR Unfortunately not, It would have to have a 4.2" barrel to be legal. But as Phil said you can get good hollowpoint and SD ammo here but expect to order online and pay out the ass for it.
>>28493672 where are you finding a decent 1911 in canada for 300-500?
only glocks in 9mm are the 17 or 19 with threaded barrel.
cheapest quality 9 is the cz75, its $800 before tax at most retailers. 92fs and g17 are both about 900, sig p226 is 1000+, most 1911s are 1000+
>>28493612 dont forget to own the handgun you also need to be part of a gun club/range, so factor in range membership as well.
shotgun is probably the cheapest option. get a mossberg or a benelli, new remingtons have been a bit dicey recently.
but >restricted handgun for home defence don't do it anon. you're just asking to get boned. in a home defence scenario youre certain to be apprehended, and then it's up to the court to decide whether you were justified. if they swing the wrong way you're looking at manslaughter with a firearm, which is a minimum 4 years in prison. if you have time to get out a handgun, you have time to run the fuck away
>>28493723 Hollow points were illegal for a long time. They are legal now for "hunting purposes"
>Shotguns >Pros Dead simple Cheap and Cheap ammo Easy to clean fix Non restricted (more lax storage laws, easier to defend in court if you face charges) No magazine limits on pump shotguns
>Cons Higher recoil(shouldn't be too much of a problem you can get low recoil buck shot aswell) Over penetration (This comes up alot and i know jackshit about it but buckshot will most likely go through drywall with considerable force) Loading speed is slow and you can't leave firearms loaded legally. (DA Grizzly mag fed bypasses this)
>Handguns >Pros Small 10 rounds Fast reloads Less chance of over penetration
>Cons Cost + ammo cost is higher Requires more training to use Restricted (requires more advanced storage)
>>28493747 Never said decent but I would consider a tuned used Norc or SAM reliable enough
>>28493723 well, when you apply for an rpal you need to two references to vouch for you. you also need a clean criminal and mental health history. then you need to be part of a gun club, and there aren't any in toronto, so you need a car to travel to hamilton or the tri cities or barrie or wherever. on top of all that, r/pals take ages to process for ontario residents.
pistols are definitely the more expensive option, by a few hundred dollars even if you go bottom of the barrel.
handguns vs shotguns, relative merits:
handguns are more difficult to fire accurately, because they're smaller. think of a banana vs a baseball bat, in terms of approximate size. shotguns shoot a heavier projectile at around the same speed as most handgun rounds, so one could say they are more lethal.
within close range, most buckshot won't spread out more than a foot, so they don't have the mythical "spread" that you hear about in movies. the accuracy compared to a handgun comes from the size of the gun: more to hold onto, longer sight radius, stock to rest against your shoulder.
the shotgun will have noticeable more recoil than a handgun. a 12 gauge with 00 buck or a slug will really pop, whereas most people can shoot 9mm all day without flinching.
why do you feel like you need a gun for home defence? most burglaries occur during the daytime anyway, and police response time in toronto is pretty good considering the size of the city.
its worth mentioning that if you do use it, you'll be charged and have to prove to the court that you were justified. if they don't agree with you, then you're looking at 4 years minimum in kingston pen. for manslaughter w/firearm. :/
It's all a purely theoretical scenario, but I am not sure what I would do... jump out my bedroom window breaking through the screen and hoping that my wife has the courage to follow? It's not just my safety I want to guarantee in this theoretical scenario. If I didn't have a family, this would be a non-issue. It's to protect them, not me.
It sounds like shotguns are a better choice in this country for home defense.
Also, who/what is crazy tok guy?
Here is a question that is a bit more vague: do home invaders generally bolt if an audible alarm is triggered? Are there stories/known cases of home invaders simply ignoring the alarm, or disabling it and continuing? Maybe this is beyond the scope of /k/, so ignore it if it's not board-relevant, but...
Interesting. Is there some particular reason there are no gun clubs in Toronto? They want to avoid making it easy for people to own guns in the country's largest city?
Re: home defense, we live in a world that is getting scarier by the year. cf. /pol/. Definitely do not want to get into specifics, but I feel like... this is not the Canada I grew up in. I know there are legal realities, I just don't know what else a person could do...
>>28493840 >who is crazy tok guy See the Canada General threads. Hes a guy that likes to illegally CC a tokarev and at one time it slipped out of his pocket in a timmies good /k/ stories.
There aren't many around TO because i'd imagine its near impossible to get permits. As well as being in a city outdoor ranges are out of the question leaving only indoor ranges which are subject to a lot more regulations.
>>28493852 Double space go back to reddit so I don't have to hide your posts kthxbia
>>28493840 crazy tok guy: some guy in alberta who CCs a tokarev to defend himself from dindu edmonton natives. once dropped his gun in a tim horton's bathroom in front of some teenagers because he didn't have a proper holster. the man, the myth, the legend.
home invaders: just like predators in the wild, career criminals want to survive for as long as possible. they pick targets that present the greatest reward and the least risk. it's more effective to install some floodlights and an obvious CCTV system, as well as proper locks, than to quasi-legally arm yourself. most will, but some might risk grabbing a few items near their entry point before running away. and if you shoot them in the back you're basically fugged because at that point youre defending your property not your life.
toronto, being canada's largest and most progressive city, has strict zoning laws when it comes to firearms. no ranges/clubs allowed, and no restricted firearms can be sold. Al Flaherty's downtown got a pass because they've been around for decades, but any other shop thats popped up after the legislature went into effect, like bass pro in vaughn, etc., can't sell them.
>>28493852 i wouldn't say i'm naive, i just wanted to explicitly caution this new anon about the possible ills of gun defence in canada
I'll pass on the dicksucking, but wouldn't mind shooting with experienced Anons after some significant online chat to ensure you are not a frightening psychopath. I am friends with a Toronto area cop, was going to practice with him to start with. I'm in metro Toronto.
>>28493925 Carry permits for SD are near impossible to get. The qualification for authorization to carry are at least four attempts on your life and a police chief sign off signifying that they do not have the resources to protect you.
>>28493212 >>28493246 they were found not guilty and the law surrounding citizens arrest was expanded to clear up misrepresentation of its intent. canadian law stands by the ethics that you shouldn't be trying to kill/injure perps just have them arrested and let due diligence take place,innocent until proven guilty. however its the misinterpretation that leaves loopholes.
>>28493894 Dropping a gun in public is not OK. He could MAKE a leather holster (Tandy by mail order?) or PVC holster -- see YouTube re the latter made with a heat gun. Heck, I'm so cheap, I made a butt plug for myself out of modeling clay.... Imagination is your only limit...
>>28493894 In Canada you have a greater ability to defend your land from trespassers than to defend your life.
Your home is your castle and may be defended by basically any level of force. You life is apparently worth a lot less because you need to use the absolute minimum amount of force to defend it if on public property, but if you carry cash for bankers then your life is worth more because you can carry a gun and shoot people who try to rob the bankers. Canada is weird.
If the police notice you applying violence then you'll be charged but if it's in defense of your home then there's about a 100% chance of the charges being dropped or the judge gets spanked by the constitution and the other judges laugh at him. Judges are overall pretty anti-gun but they recognize the sanctity of the home.
>>28494383 He ordered a holster, but he started carrying before it arrived.
>>28495655 >but if you carry cash for bankers then your life is worth more because you can carry a gun and shoot people who try to rob the bankers. Canada is weird.
It's something, I don't know if I'd call it weird though
This sounds drastically different in general though from what people were saying earlier about defending yourself in your home, about the min 4 year sentence if you shoot someone who didn't do nothing, let's politely say.
Also, manslaughter... is it realistic to hope to inflict a non-fatal wound on a home invader in a split second decision? Is it even wise? If you blow someone's leg off with a shotgun and they have a gun, they can still return fire and kill you. They won't get away missing a leg, but the purpose of defense is ruined if... you die in the process.
This seems like a very /k/able question. What does /k/ think
I doubt you could actually find an antique firearm at an affordable price, and I don't think it really matters what weapon you use, it's what you do with it. I don't think the penalties would be any different if someone you shoot dies because you did it with a flintlock than a Glock. I was thinking of buying a shinken (katana), because I do Kendo and can handle a sword, but... yeah, I doubt it would be any more legally viable. The only difference might be some additional firearms charge if you are charged.
Remember though that the criminal can sue you and will probably win, because that's the fucking ridiculous system we live in.
>>28493069 Owning is fairly simple. Get your RPAL, have a range membership, buy your pistol, wait for transfer so you can take it home, wait for papers to come via snail mail for transporting it.
Carrying is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Though there are rare ATCs issued. And some people carry regardless, since the chance of being caught is almost nil. >>28493159 You can use a firearm in self-defence/HD, but the RCMP don't consider it a valid primary reason to own a gun, because they're no fun faggots. >>28493246 >What to do CC, rip out your pins and do whatever you like. Just be smart and don't get caught. >>28493751 That is a different ATC. I know a couple trappers who had Wilderness Carry ATCs for when they were on the line. >>28493972 >YOU ARE FREE NOW
>>28493137 I used to work for cash in a stripper bar in a shady part of town. I'd carry a handgun mainly cause walking through that neighbourhood in a bartenders getup at 3am was asking to be held up by a junkie with a syring
Carrying is banned here, however you can own a hand gun with a restricted liscence, but they are extremely difficult to get. Also silencers, assault mags for anything bigger then a 22, and auto firearms are also banned.
>>28498903 RCMP have a bunch of things not treated as firearms, the exception being if they are used in a crime. So using a airsoft pistol to rob someone actually gets treated as you having a weapon. I think if you shot someone with a flintlock it would become a "firearm" like any other gun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong please.
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