I've heard through YouTube vids that crap ammo is inherently inaccurate and buying quality ammo is essential for accuracy. Keep in mind I heard this from Sootch00 who seemed to be shilling for HPR ammo which is unreasonably pricey for what it seems to be. What do you think /K/?
>is blaming accuracy on ammo a copout? Or is there some merit to it?
Out of trigger pull, barrel quality, and ammo, ammo is the single most important quality for a precise weapon.
Idk is HPR is anything special but buying better quality match ammo is essential to extracting the maximum amount of precision from your gun.
There is some merit to it. "Quality" of ammo is generally referring to consistency of ammo. i.e. powder charge is exactly the same for each round, projectiles are very close in size, etc. Having consistent ammunition is key to shooting consistent groups (shooter is still the main factor, but ammo matters too). Cheap ammunition sacrifices some of this consistency, that's how they can make it for cheaper price.
Ammo, free float barrel, and trigger make the 3 biggest differences in how well a gun shoots (in that order).
A majority of the rifles I use at work are anywhere from 3 moa to worse. The ammo is issued m193.
Hitting targets at 300+ meters is dubious at best.
sure maybe low quality ammo decreases accuracy. but the way i see it:
if you practice your aim with cheap ammo, then it will be easier to aim with good ammo.
If your just plinking you don't care if you get 1 FTF per 150 rounds or if a round randomly goes 200 fps slower than the others.
Quality ammo matters, but nothing really matters if your plinking paper.
Wolf , bear, golden tiger, hertzers. All are externally consistent. If your sighted in for gt your going to get the same bang every time. Same for wolf and bear, honestly even tula aint bad
I unsubbed after he made that retarded video of him shooting and then doing the fudd theatrics of jerking the gun to his head and looking both ways.
His whole channel is. Shilling anyway
Sadly, a lot of factory ammo is not up to snuff. Australian Outback, plain PMC, and Winchester training loads were terrible out of my rifle at 100 yards. 3 and 4 inch groups all day.
Switched back to Hornady V-max or Match ammo and the groups dropped right back to under 2".
Federal Fusion was even better, but I'm not paying for that just to practice at 100 yards.
That's your problem. Just like how I don't expect Somalia to be able to make good cars because they don't have roads, I don't expect Australia to be able to make good ammo because they don't have guns.
Granted, they were from the FBI training load contract. That crap was well under powdered.
Maybe the white box stuff is more consistent, but you're not the first from who I've heard otherwise.
They'll turn a 1-2moa gun into a 3-4moa gun maybe but if you can shoot consistent 4 inch groups at 100 yards while standing then maybe you should consider more expensive ammo. Until then though I'll maintain that for everything where your accuracy need only be good enough cheaper is better (unless you care about terminal effect on target)
Your rifle may not like the speed that the AO stuff is pushing the bullet. which version of AO ammo were you using btw?
I would say there is some merit to it. I did a test with some 22lr at 100m and found that my rifle liked the Eley Match ammo. Pic related was my test. It wasn't truly scientific, but what I did was clean the bore of any residual powder. I then took 5 rounds to foul the barrel with that particular versions bullet lube, and then shot 10 rounds at the target to record what happened. I then used a boresnake to clean out the powder from the 15 previous rounds and restarted the fouling process. I did that for all 3 ammo types.
The top left target used Eley Target ammo
The top right target used Eley Club ammo
The bottom middle target used Eley Match ammo
The 22 test gun was a Savage mk2 fvsr, with a boyd's pro varmint stock torqued to 18inlbs, and shot suppressed with a SCO warlock 2.
Also, if my local cabelas would have had some Eley tenex in stock I would have bought a box to try. I plan on redoing the test with some SK rifle match ammo that I have as well. My rifle was sighted in with SK rifle match, and all POA were center dot. It seems like the Eley match and club are slower loads compared to SK rifle match and Eley target.
Last thing. On the Eley Match target the one flier at the 5 o'clock position was the 7th round in the string, and didn't feel like a pulled round so I'm not sure if that was just me, a bad round, or a mixture of the two.
Actually this is the opposite, most Australian guns are very expensive quality guns because the people that can afford to own them and go through the hell to get them 1: have money
2:want to get the best they can because they only get to have 1
This one. If it's a weight to barrel twist issue, it's a weird one, because I have a 1:7 that has a much easier time with the 75gr match from Hornady.
How wrong you are
>take 3/4 MOA gun (FGMM, not even handloads)
>feed it 55 or 62gr Tulammo
>5" groups at 100y
>occasionally a flyer out to 10" you can't explain
Its literally the worst ammo I have ever fired.
>all are externally consistent
No the fuck they are not.
If they were externally consistent they wouldn't be 3-5MOA ammo. Externally consistent ammo is no worse than 2MOA.
Moreover, I've gotten both Brown Bear and Tulammo with no primer and/or no powder in the round. That passed QC--no fucking primer. I also got one box of Herters where every single fucking bullet was in upside-down. Looked like wadcutters (Herters apparently uses a flat-base 55gr bullet btw).
I've never shot Tulammo in anything other than 9mm, so you have a better sample size than me. I've shot close to 1k of them and had maybe ten malfunctions total and the groupings are pretty decent.
Here's a breakdown:
Rifle: Custom AR, 18" Hart 1:8 barrel, receiver trued, built all about accuracy. Topped with Nikon M-308 4-16x42, zeroed at 100 yards
All groups are 5-shot groups
Factory match ammo
>Atomic Ammo and Black Hills 69gr TMK
Have never had a group larger than 0.75". Average group is about 0.58"
>FGMM 69gr SMK
Average group of about 0.72". Largest was still under 1"
>FGMM 77gr SMK
Average group of about 0.76". Largest group was 1.08".
Factory match/tactical ammo (mk318, mk262, 75gr TAP, etc)
>Black Hills mk262, 77gr SMK w/ cannelure
Average group of right around 1".
>CBC mk262, 77gr "OTM" that isn't an SMK but similar
Average group of about 1.5", smallest of 0.98", largest of 7", that lot got returned for full refund
>Federal gov-contract mk318, 62gr OTMFB
Average group of about 1.8", smallest of 1.1", largest of under 2"
>Hornady TAP LE 75gr Traditional Match
Average group of about 0.8", largest of 1.5"
>PMC X-Tac 55gr XM193
Average group of around 1.7"
>Federal AE 55gr XM193
Average group of around 1.4"
>IMI 55gr XM193 civ-production
Average group of around 1", but dirty as fuck
>IMI 55gr M193 milsurp
Average group of around 1.6", fairly clean, primers harder than diamonds
>Barnaul Brown and Silver Bear 55gr FMJ
Average group of around 4". Largest I couldn't keep all 5 shots on a full-size silhouette so no idea.
>Herter's 55gr FMJ
Average group of around 4". Zinc plating on cases would flake and jam weapon, took 4 tries to get a 5-round group without disassembly
>Wolf WPA 62gr FMJ
Average group of 7". Largest group unknown, only hit a fullsize silhouette once out of 15 rounds at 100m off the bench. Routinely won't cycle 5 rounds in a row.
>Wolf Military Classic 55gr FMJ
Average group of 3.8", no function issues. Noticeably underpowered.
>Tulammo 55gr FMJ
Average group of 5", largest group of 12", so underpowered would not cycle test rifle but cycles carbine-gassed rifle decently
Now, what does this mean?
Well, with any of the true match ammo the rifle can place 5 consecutive rounds into the vitals on a human (for testing purposes, let's call it a 10" circle) at 1000m (assuming they're still supersonic at that range, which they won't be).
With the tacticool ammo that range goes from at the longest of 700m (assuming a 55gr bullet is still super at that range) to less than 400m.
With the garbage ammo you cannot guarantee the rifle is capable of 5 consecutive hits in a 10" circle past 400m, with the exception of the mil-production IMI which I've only seen for sale once. With something like the Wolf WPA, you can't guarantee that at 150m or hitting the person at all at 250m, and about half of them risk a complete miss in as short as 75m.
Keep in mind that is irrespective of shooter skill. That is strictly the mechanical accuracy of the gun. A bad shooter can significantly exacerbate this.
Agreed, but even as a plinker, even I notice differences in ammo. 762x39 is the main caliber where I feel like there's HUGE gaps in quality. Otherwise everything I've shot has seemed to be even enough where I don't notice.
I'd rather spend a few extra cents a round if I'm shooting paper or my long range steel. Mud busting and fooling around? then who the hell cares.
Not an accuracy question, but ammo related.
Purely hypothetically, if I wanted to kill myself by shooting myself in the head, what kind of pistol ammunition should I use? I want to be considerate to the janitor and don't want to leave a big mess to clean up. I know from physics that the bullet has to stay inside to prevent spillage so does that mean a hollow-point bullet is the best?
Step 1: Put plastic tote box on floor
Step 2: Lay on floor
Step 3: Put head in box
Step 4: Put gun in mouth
Step 5: Make mess in the box
Step 6: As ghost observe janitor's relief at your consideration.
That's the civilian stuff that's pretty accurate but dirty as fuck.
The milsurp came in a .50cal ammo can, in bandoliers/on stripper clips (840rds, just like US Lake City M193). A couple places had it for like 2 months 7 years ago.
Well, I witnessed an MP blow his brains out (temple to temple) with his issued .45 back in 1981.
The 230gr FMJ bullet didn't exit, but he still managed to paint 3 of the 4 walls of his office with brain matter and blood.
I don't know, the JFK assassination made me think about all the weird stuff your head makes after it's blown apart.
Like the other car passengers were inured by Kennedy's skull acting like a shrapnel grenade.
Imo, match ammo is almost as good as handloads, but can vary gun to gun, & manufacturer to manufacturer.
Every time you pull the trigger the trigger is the same, the barrel is the same, that's why ammo quality is of utmost importance, if you have almost identical bullets for every shot, they are going to end up hitting very close to each other with the same point of aim.
Unfortunately match ammo is retardedly expensive, due to the high qc necessary. So handloading is really the best deal for precision shooting.
Good luck OP
eeeh...maybe your superpremium factory match like red-box Black Hills and BVAC new-production.
I'm the guy that did the ammo breakdown. My handloads shoot significantly better, with my best being consistently quarter-MOA (52gr FBHP Watson semi-custom benchrest bullet over 8208XBR, FL sized, SK Jagd/Wolf KVB556 primer, light taper crimp. Definitely not a distance bullet but when I'm shooting 0.17" 5-shot 100m groups with an 18" SPR-style AR I'll take it).
Almost (as in some being sub moa), but unless you get lucky, you won't get 1/4 moa groups without handloading
But most of my experiences with surplus & cheap ammo result in 2-6 moa or worse in most of my guns with the exception of hxp Greek ball ammo, that is usually 1moa-ish
PPU .308 was the worst cheap ammo I have ever uesd except for cheap 7.62x39 in my vz2008
holy shit. That's fucking amazing. Neither of my 03's nor my Garand will even group with it, looks like buckshot. Granted, they're service-grade with not-great barrels.
As far as handloads go, even my cheapshit plinker rifle reloads (Berry's clone of Hornady 55gr FMJ, Varget, whoever's powder is cheapest so usually BLC-2) and my various hunting loads are 3/4-1 MOA. Dunno, I don't do anything special (literally progressive press with auto-thrown powder charge) unless it's match ammo (Forster co-ax, culver measure, Redding competition dies).
At 100yrds, I get the following from my Tikka T3:
Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr Sierra MatchKings - 0.5moa
Australian Outback 168gr Sierra MatchKings - 0.5 - 1moa
Geco 170gr JHP - 1.5 - 2moa
Federal American Eagle 150gr FMJ - 1 - 1.5moa
So yes, the ammo you use can play a big difference.
This was hxp in my 1903a3 or possibly my 1917 Enfield @ 200yrds prone with sling
>uses completely subjective term
For fuck's sake OP. Use cheap ammo to practice your form and use expensive ammo when it really matters (SD, hunting, internet bragging).
>be guarding payroll cash prior to direct-deposit
>sitting in office doing paperwork, since 1LT's are basically walking signatures
>E7 MP, the guy actually carrying a firearm to guard the quarter-million in payroll cash, knocks on office door
>"Hey LT Anon, can you please call someone to come relieve me?"
>"I'll tell you in a minute"
>hear the slide rack
>hurdle desk, get to doorway right as he plops into his chair and blows his brains out
Despite everyone's best efforts those cinderblock walls exuded the odor of brain matter for months.
Perfectly and I mean PERFECTLY loaded ammo will deliver the most consistent shot placement of a round, if EVERYTHING else is PERFECT.
Like if a machine produced to the highest possible tolerances fired a weapon with two types of ammo, one a factory load like Federal and the other perfect machine was firing ammo filled to literal perfection by another perfect machine the perfect load would perform better, statistically speaking.
To a human being to whom the four fundamentals of marksmanship apply the tiny difference of ammo quality won't matter. If you are trying to kill a human being, the tiny difference of ammo quality inherent in industrial production of ammunition will be imperceptible compared to the imperfections inherent in a human shooter.
Ammo quality ONLY applies to Olympic and higher order precision shooters. If you are a person supporting you second amendment rights surplus ammunition will serve you perfectly fine for accuracy.
This might mean nothing, I am a random human on the internet, but I am sorry.
I am sorry you saw that. I am sorry you live with that image. That is an unnatural image, something that would haunt any human. I am sorry you have to live with that weight.
You mentioned it online because you remember it, I pops to mind. You live with this image. This memory, and unnatural memory, something fearful and frightening, something no man should live with alone.
Alexander the Great, one of the most powerful men to have ever lived, one of the greatest leaders to have ever lived, is said to have "cried" when he was informed that there were so many worlds in the universe and he lamented that he had not yet conquered one.
There is nothing shameful in admitting feelings, those in the past admitted them freely, thats why they didn't suffer as much.
Please, talk to a real phyciatrist. Dont vent your emotions on 4chan, get help, you deserve it.
>Ammo quality ONLY applies to Olympic and higher order precision shooters.
I was with you right up until this rather broad statement. There are large numbers of people that need better quality than surplus can provide.
Anyone hunting CXP2 needs to be able to put a round in a 6" circle (basic lung shot) at whatever range they hunt at.
6" @ 200y = 3" circle @ 100y
6" @ 300y = 2" circle @ 100y
6" @ 500y = 1.18" circle @ 100y
And lets not even get into people who try and pop varmints like prairie dogs at ranges well over 300 yards.
You have never fired a weapon ever in you life, the post.
36/40 is an expert qualification in the Army because they allow a 10 percent deviation due to the imperfection of weapons and ammo.
If you are a literal precision shooter, thats fine. A literal sniper, thats fine.
But in an instance of self defense the load of an ammunition plays such a small role compared to nerves, fear, shaming hands, environmental conditions, etc, that we might as well eliminate it from the equation.
>goes from HURR ONLY OLYMPIC AND HIGHER SHOOTERS NEED IT
>well it's alright if you're a military sniper or literal precision shooter
That isn't just moving the goalposts, you changed the whole fucking sport.
To anyone that isn't blindly magdumping into the 25m berm without hanging a target, quality ammo makes a difference. Does it make a huge difference to plinkers? No. Does it make a huge difference to hunters? Absolutely. Does it make a huge difference to action shooters? Absolutely. Competition shooters, military grunts, LEOs etc as well.
No your point does not stand.
Otherwise literally nobody could tell the difference between match ammo and shit ammo, much less match ammo and good ammo.
Yes, every-fucking-thing affects it. They stack though, not overwrite each other. So if you're off by 1/8th MOA due to an imperfect trigger squeeze, 1/4th MOA because you didn't stop your breath in the exact right spot, and 4 MOA because of ammo, you're off 4 3/8ths MOA instead of 1 3/8ths MOA.
I dont known what the fuck you are talking about. Yes, an Olympic shooter and a military sniper are on the same plane as far as I am concerned. They have as much perfection to their human machinery as is possible, so ammo loads affect them.
You however, shooting at prarie dogs at 500 yards, need to worry about your four fundamentals far more than the ammo in the magazine.
And we need to continue this, military personnel shoot the literal definition of SURPLUS ammo, you retard. And they hit their targets just fine.
Once again, if you want to hit a target at 500 yards you need special ammo. If you want to kill a human at 300 meters you need military surplus.
Not sure since he wasn't in my chain of command. The extent of my involvement in the investigation was giving a sworn statement like an hour after the fact.
Word through the grapevine was marital issues.
Not like I actually got a chance to ask.
>military shoots the literal definition of surplus
No. If the military still has it it isn't surplus. The military sells off shit that's too old or out-of-spec to use.
>and they hit their targets just fine
No they don't. There's a reason the absolute highest marksmanship award available to non -4D soldiers is attainable with a 90% hit rating on 2x4' targets from 25-300m, with only 2 of them actually being at 300m. And less than 3% of soldiers achieve expert marksman.
>literally the only possible application for firearms is killing humans at <=300m
>you have to be a super-trained sniper before you rate quality ammo, and have to be a super-trained sniper (contradicting your previous sentence) to hit anything past 300m
This is literally
>I don't know what I'm talking about
See, you keep doing this. You keep acting like I am not saying there is no difference in ammo. Yes, at a statistical level, fired from a stationary, screwed down bench rest by a gun firing machine built to the highest standards of humanity a perfectly loaded ammunition will outperform a factory (mass produced) ammunition.
However, if you handed two precision shooters with identical rifles factory loaded ammo and precision ammo they would vary so little that one might win a competition of perfect shooting, but both would kill a human just fine.
Other human sized targets like a deer would also die just fine. And against smaller targets like a prarie dog (who the fuck hunts prarie dogs at precision ranges) the statistical average would still yield kills.
Read what I wrote, a precision made killing machine will benifit, a military sniper MIGHT benefit, statistically, any normal human would never notice the difference.
That sounds maybe a grade above my needs. I'll keep it in mind for later though, thanks. Got any recommendations for .223 or 5.56?
Pretty much, man-sized target at 100m. When I can reliably hit that with gutter ammo, maybe bumping up a grade would be a good idea, or dumping money into a handloading setup.
I wound up with a 1000 round case of Tulammo over Christmas, so at least that will work for now.
> At a range of 500 yards your breathing or position, your trigger squeeze or your sight picture will throw you off.
100% agreement. If you don't have the skills, no magical ammo will fix your aim. But..
Ammo quality ONLY applies to Olympic and higher order precision shooters.
There are a shit ton of old ranchers in West Texas who are not Olympic level shooters, but are capable of tagging prairie dogs out to 500 yards. If their ammo isn't grouping under .75", they will miss their target, regardless of their good aim. Surplus (hell, most factory loads) aren't going to cut it.
Even redneck ranchers sometimes need match quality ammo.
I shot 7,000 rounds of steel case .223 this year. I did have a couple of failures, but never experienced no primer, or powder, or upside down bullets. You sir are a liar, and a whore.
You are fucking wrong.
Hell I am a "precision shooter" by your standards. Hand me a rifle with 1 mag of FGMM and 1 mag of Perfecta M80. I will shoot one to a 1" or less group, but the other will be a 3" group.
That's literally three times worse. That is not "at the statistical level".
>other human sized targets like deer
You have to hit what's roughly a 6" circle in a deer. You just have to put a person out of the fight, which means you can hit pretty much anywhere from the knees up, or roughly a 2'x4' target. That's about 30x the area.
>who the fuck hunts prairie dogs at precision ranges
99.9% of people who hunt prairie dogs. You can't exactly walk up and blast them with a Glock.
You literally know fucking nothing.
> That sounds maybe a grade above my needs. I'll keep it in mind for later though, thanks. Got any recommendations for .223 or 5.56?
In that case, Silver Bear. Dirt cheap, reasonably accurate.
As for .223, best cheap food I've found for my gun so far was Hornady training ammo. If I didn't need want the brass, I suspect their steel case match ammo would be better.
Yeah, if you're just trying to hit -anywhere- on a man, anything made will get you there.
Once you're doing that 100% of the time, try keeping all the shots on the torso (7 ring or better if using FBI silhouettes). Honestly even the crap ammo should do that if nothing's wrong with the rifle.
In x39, Tulammo is not significantly less accurate than anything else not Hornady SST, just a bit underpowered (which is irrelevant for punching paper within MPBR). Shoot your 1k rounds with a smile friend.
So you hit a 1" circle with your presicion ammo and a 3" circle with your factory loads.
>you need to hit a 6" circle on a deer
Thank you for proving my point. The deer would die in both instances.
God, I wish mine would. 1.75" is the best I've squeezed so far, and that was with Federal Fusion.
I'd like to believe it's because I only have a 1-4x on top though. I have a .308 bolt action and a 10x that I've shot 1" groups with before.
Not lying. Bought 2000rds of Tulammo and had 1 squib (no powder) and 2 without primers (allowing the powder to fall out) as well as 1 dud. Then bought 500rds of Brown Bear, and had 1 without primer, no duds.
Then I bought a single box of Herters, and all 20 of the rounds had the bullets in upside down. I returned those.
I want to start hitting anywhere on a man-sized target. My end goal, at least with my AK, is hog hunting, since 7.62x39 seems to be enough to kill wild hog and my state doesn't ban semi-autos from hunting. My state also barely requires a license for it, and has no closed season for hog, so it seemed like an inexpensive type of hunting to get into.
See, I said this earlier, off a bench rest your four fundamentals: sight pictures, position, breathing and trigger squeeze will play a far larger part than any ammunition loading ever will.
>can clearly prove the product is defective
>therefor it is able to be returned as defective, circumventing all laws and store policies about returning ammo
Not even him, but holy shit please tell me you're not stupid enough to believe anywhere that sells ammo is gonna go "yep it's not only shit but dangerous shit, too bad" in violation of the Consumer Protection Act, are you?
You'll probably want to get good enough to group 2" at 100 yards then. With hogs, nearly everyone around here (DFW) goes for a neck shot, directly in line behind the ear.
Behind the shoulder on a hog, and it's in the gut. If you hit their shoulder, the 7.62x39 is likely to mushroom up and never make it through that weird shoulder gristle pad they have. One anon said he even had a .308 blow up before it made it through.
there is no law, you mong, but unless he bought them from some rinky dink gun shop theres next to no chance any online retailer or big box store let him make a return. if he had said he got a store credit or a refund, thats possible, but nobody will accept a return.
>if you practice your aim with cheap ammo, then it will be easier to aim with good ammo.
Not exactly. This isn't a videogame or RPG where you level up or something. I mean yeah while you're working out the basics to get your groupings tighter shooting cheap ammo maybe. But personal skill out of the way, different ammo will give you variations in behaviors of bullet trajectory. These differences can't be made up simply with "I'll just aim harder"
Generally, higher quality loads do translate into better accuracy.
I typically get 2-3 inch groups out of steel shit, winchester, and lake city.
Hornady and other higher quality loads pushes that from submoa-1.5 inch groups depending on the load.
I'm unimpressed with HPR 44mag shit accuracy, their 10mm is decent. Usually pretty clean.
Cheap shit is nice to practice with. Getting you scope sighted in and practicing trigger control.