So rafale-chan has been just sold to the IAF. Is this deal another nail in the coffin for the PAK-FA or is that a separate issue?
Also suddendly between Egypt, India, Quatar and the FAF, Dassault has too many orders on the Rafale. I'm actually happy the sales are taking off (UAE is also very interested) as it's a great fucking plane, on top of it looking hot as fuck
pretty much every military force on earth is a weird mix of foreign and domestic equipment. literally who cares?
of course india has a special handicap because they can't even into toilets, but that's a separate matter.
They seem utterly incompetent which isn't surprising.
Also Rafale is a QT.
Yeah! So instead of operating functioning planes they should buy into the best fucking plane ever that is not yet even operational cause U.S of fucking A because it takes of like a helicopter (still in development)..
Let's face it buying F-35s even before they're even ready is like pre-ordering a game from Brianna Wu.
Russian and Soviet equipment. Barely an foreign.
Mostly moving to Chinese produces Russian jet's. Some Soviet stuff still in production. Few American helicopters
U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A
The only faggot in this thread is you you samefagging bundle of fucking sticks.
Back to the topic:
Good for the Frenchies I guess, but still it must hurt a bit not to get the initial order, which was 100 + planes.
Anyway, from what it looks like IAF is gettting a boatload of plains anyway. What is their currents status? are they approaching he strenght of Russia/China and the like?
You don't understand how logistics works if you think this is an inherent problem.
Logistics are part of procurement contracts. I doubt any of the Western aircraft will pose a problem. It is ALWAYS slavshit that is the problem. IAF have never reported a serviceability problem with the Mirage 2000s, but they are always having problems with their Su-30 engines.
PakFA is dead. It is the same rehashed shit, and the IAF and RuAF know it. Hence the low orders. India won't purchase any until Russia can deliver their new engines that they promised would be ready by '2018'.
Their air force is actually at their strategically weakest in its entire history. The vast majority of the IAF's fleet are ancient MiG-21s that they are retiring by the boatload. That's why India is so eager to find a replacement fighter.
What they need is engines tech. Otherwise they would already be flying lots of Tejas. I doubt Snecma is going to give it to them over 36 aircraft.
Also, funny thing is that despite having so many Russian aircraft, their indigenous 'Kaveri' engines are based on Western designs.
I have a hard on for Indian stuff.
It looks really home-made and handcrafted.
I bet the Tejas cockpit is comfy as hell , I also like the INSAS, I don't know why,it has a nugget like appeal to it despite being g shit
Majority of IAF is actually Air Superiority fighters with Su-30MKI and MiG-29.
What they need is a SEAD/DEAD strike fighter capable of multi-role, and then a cheap single engine interceptor.
For IAF it is going to be Tejas to replace all the MiG-21s and then the Rafale for a SEAD/DEAD multi-role strike fighter.
Don't know what they are going to do for their 5th generation fighters though. HAL AMCA is still on paper. Will be interesting to see how much help US offers in its development.
the PAK-FA doesn't seem worth the development, and I'm sure we will help India out with their own 5th gen development if they get a little more cozy with the USA.
India will be a great counter to the Chinese, we are already helping them with a true Supercarrier.
>India will be a great counter to the Chinese
If China is a paper tiger, then India is paper
Theres no point for India to have a carrier(s?) when they're clearly going to be mauled in the first week of an open conflict with China. If the Chinese anti-carrier strategy for the Pacific Fleet makes the USN uneasy, I can only imagine how long India's ships stay afloat.
China can't project force outside of the SCS.
Once their noisy submarines leave littoral waters for blue ocean they will be sitting ducks for the P8I, purchase by India, and other ASW ships.
And they don't have the logistics to maintain their surface fleet. In fact the moment China goes to war with anyone the entire region will gang up on them, and crush them.
If Australia gets involved China is finished. Their navy buildup and strategy is being advised directly by the Pentagon.
36 is only for off the shelf.
A minimum of +90 Rafales manufactured locally will follow a few years later when more funds clear. Similar story with the Su-30MKI, which ended up at 272 total aircraft.
>You don't understand how logistics works if you think this is an inherent problem.
>Can't piss off combloc because they'll stop servicing your aircraft
>Can't piss of the west because they'll stop servicing your aircraft
>In a total war scenario you're building infinitely more different unique parts, stressing your logistics chain
>This is not a problem
Yeah I think its you that doesn't know what you're talking about, champ
Unknown as of yet.
Wait til India Republic Day in January 26. French Premier Hollandes will be there as a guest of honor.
Expect a large deal signed for 6 more French Scorpene class submarines, and also Rafale deal. Sum of both deals will be in excess of $10 billion.
Russia not getting any of the fat new contracts. And just last year the vatniks were screaming that France would never sign another military deal again after they pulled the Mistral deal off the table.
You realize that picture actually shows several significant differences right? If you were implying that the Su-30MK and the Pak Fa are the same aircraft, that picture kind of sinks the argument. The air intakes and the wings especially look different.
It is not out of spite though.
Russian stuff just can't compete with the West in fair trials. Cheaper costs are offset by ToT, which are far more valuable for a nation trying to go full indigenous by 2030.
Russian Kilos are just no good compared to Scorpenes, and their MiG-35 is just the same 80s era aircraft with a new paint job. Same story for a dozen or so recent defence acquisitions.
'Armata' seems to be the only major development of equipment since the 90s, apart from missiles and nuclear submarines which are not for export anyways.
>Is this deal another nail in the coffin for the PAK-FA or is that a separate issue?
There are currently three fighter programmes in the IAF.
The LCA (light), MRCA (medium) and the FGFA (heavy).
The Tejas is the LCA, the Rafale is the MRCA and the T-50 derivative is the FGFA.
>A SEAD/DEAD strike fighter
The US doesen't really have one of those. We have F-16s that can be pressed into the role, and "eventually" an F-35 mountable HARM. The only aircraft which can really do SEAD well right now is the Tornado.
>Light air policing/interception
>Medium twin engine fast strike fighter for suppression/destruction of enemy air defense (SEAD/DEAD) and 'multirole' fighter
>Heavy Air Superiority and mobile command center fighter.
It is not really that much different than F-22/F-35 doctrine of USAF, just with an added extra cheap and spammable aircraft on the lowest end to take advantage of possible manpower superiority, and save money.
You guys are trying WAY too hard.
My only point is that it looks quite different from the Su-30MK, based on the picture that >>28438182 posted.
I'm sure they both have some basis in the Su-27.
Sukhoi is using the same production lines and has no money.
RuAF and IAF have cut orders and are not interested. It doesn't take a genius to figure out PakFA is just more Su-27 rehash slavshit.
rafale was the first aircraft over libya. even before US cruise missiles cleared out the air defense.
swiss evaluation shown that rafale is a lot better than gripen and slightly better than eurofighter.
It doesn't have radar blockers.
The engines are exposed, look at the fucking 1/3rd backend of the plane.
It's less stealthy than the Raf.
> It doesn't have radar blockers.
not yet. they'll have to redesign the intakes for production engines anyway so why bother putting them in
>The engines are exposed
i don't see any part of engine exposed except for the nozzles. have you ever seen a jet engine? it looks like this:
How the fuck are they going to redesign the intakes when it's going into production this year?
Are you ignoring the GIANT ass exposed metal heatsinks located on the back 1/3rd of the jet? That's a giant radar reflector.
>How the fuck are they going to redesign the intakes when it's going into production this year?
it's going into production with engine 117.
production plane with the new engine (izdelie 30) is planned for 2020
>That's a giant radar reflector.
not from the front hemisphere for which pak-fa is optimized
titanium body panels. composite and painted in the new prototype. see pic.
>production plane with the new engine (izdelie 30) is planned for 2020
PakFA is dead then. Once they get new engines they will have to retest and re-certify, which will take another 3-4 years. By the time it goes into production 6th generation prototypes will be out.
Saab offered FULL technology transfer and local manufacturing for the Gripen to India, a better deal than was offered to Brazil, and they still rejected it.
>IAF modernisation plan: Saab offers Gripen fighter jets under 'Make in India' with full control
>Saab is not only offering to set up a base here but also help in the development of aerospace capability for the next 100 years and partner in developing the next version of indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), being developed and designed by Aeronautical Development Agency.
Gripen must not be that advanced compared to the Tejas, if India is not willing to accept a 100% indigenization, technology transfer, and 100 year future assistance in aerospace. That is practically the equivalent of selling the entire aerospace division of Saab to India. Not all is well with Saab it seems, Swedish Defense budget cuts perhaps?
>not just holding out a few more years for a vastly superior aircraft
But enough to sustain a full aerospace industry?
I have a feeling Saab realizes that it no longer has the cash to compete with cheap Chinese exports, and doesn't have the cash for a true 5th generation fighter. I think they are trying spin-off their aerospace sector entirely. Sweden is not a country that has the political will or budget to support an indigenous aerospace industry as sad as that may sound.
So they are making a completely new variant of it. 4 years after production started? Are Russians incapable of understanding basic economics?
Good thing they don't accurately report the costs of their military projects.....
no. they intended this from the start.
russians need a new plane yesterday but a fifth-gen engine for it simply cannot be ready sooner than 2020.
so they decided to go with an an interim engine for initial production phase.
the plane has a lot of room for growth designed into it. re-engining will require only minor adjustments to air intakes and no changes to airframe structure. things like flat nozzles and s-ducts are dreams of forum warriors. will never happen and are not even required.
A completely sub-optimal solution that doesn't approach S-duct capability. Theres a reason pretty much the entire aerospace industry dropped them in favor of the latter.
Was there something else you wanted to share with the class?
Then why not just make more SU-35s until they could make a true clean sheet gen 5 jet?
Seems pretty fucking stupid. Now they are completely invested in a 4.5 gen product that no one wants to buy, even their own airforce.
Why is that even important?
What matters is that India can get a ToT from Dassault and they can get their Rafales in a few years.
F-35 on current backlog and delayed schedule would take a near decade of waiting for other orders to be filled and there would be no ToT.
What matters is the F35A.
Just saying that the F-35 getting delayed isn't a huge deal when the Rafale can't even engage in BVR and will get swatted out of the sky by pretty much anything that can.
Nothing is 100% Pk sure, but you don't want to be playing "dodge the R77" when you can't do jack shit back.
>Then why not just make more SU-35s until they could make a true clean sheet gen 5 jet?
That is actually what the RuAF is doing. They cut orders of the PakFA and ordered more Su-35S.
You won't hear about it because the State controls and censors the media, but there is probably a lot of infighting between Sukhoi and the RuAF going on right now over PakFA orders.
Rafale will easily get the BVR missiles integrated well before the F-35 orders free up.
India is not an F-35 partner, and the order backlogs for the F-35 are well over +1000.
There is no way India gets the F-35 before 2020, even if they signed today. Rafale orders off the shelf can be finished by 2018.
Maybe they can get a few of those Engineers and Doctors to work!
Good luck to them in making that new engine. Russia is REALLY behind in jet engine tech, so it will be interesting if they can produce a capable one by 2020. At that point Sukhoi should develop an entirely new airframe around it.
And the Indians also ordered 200 Kamov Ka-226T helos with french 2G1 engines from Turbomeca. 400 hundreds engines, plus maintenance.
The frogs starts the 2016 export game strong. The Rafale is a very strong contender for the 80-something complement of fighter planes the indian air force plans to eventualy order, despite what they say publicly they certainly don't want to add yet-another model of plane to their laready diverse fleet, in addition to the development of their new CATOBAR 65.000 tons carrier project for the navy (if it ever happens, which is not a given) which could certainly use Rafale M.
That would make two other orders of 36 Rafale B/C for the air force plus one order of 36 Rafale M for the Navy, maybe 40. As much as i aknowledge their effort, the Tejas II is way too modest and i hardly believe the navalised variant of the Gripen NG will ever be developped. Unless they suddenly decide to buy American equipment (i do no believe it ever happened since at least 2000 for any meaningful combat equipment, as far as I can remember) the Rafale is pretty much the sole CATOBAR capable plane out there.
>Russian stuff just can't compete with the West in fair trials. Cheaper costs are offset by ToT, which are far more valuable for a nation trying to go full indigenous by 2030.
Not really. Pretty much most tenders won by Western stuff is when the Russians don't have a direct equivalent.
>Russian Kilos are just no good compared to Scorpenes,
Again like what I said above, pr. 636 lost out because they don't have an equivalent system to Scorpenes's AIP yet. Actually they do, in the pr. 677 however its shit. Its probably because the Russian AIP is pretty novel- instead of storing hydrogen in tanks onboard they just catalyze it from stored diesel fuel. Much better system than any other AIP out there since hydrogen tanks are pretty cumbersome themselves and pretty much every port everywhere can handle diesel but not all are equipped to handle hydrogen.
>and their MiG-35 is just the same 80s era aircraft with a new paint job.
hilariously you can not be any further from the truth. MiG-35s are, like the Su-35S fundamentally different aircrafts- pretty much the only thing retained is the shape of the airframe, and with mods at that.
>'Armata' seems to be the only major development of equipment since the 90s,
Again you're wrong. Armata was only started in 2010-11 when prospective projects from the 90s like Obj 195 were cancelled; ironically they were ready for production then.
What is even more sad is that Sweden will probably spin even this as some sort of victory for new Swedish "humanitarian" superpower. What ever that even means.
The cuckest nation on earth. But now I'll leave it as that since it's more of /pol/ subject.
>Sukhoi is using the same production lines and has no money.
Sukhoi doesn't have any production lines of their own- they just design stuff.
>RuAF and IAF have cut orders and are not interested.
For the RuAF its easy to cut something you never committed to in the first place, and for the IAF the PAK-FA is no concern if theirs- they are in for something called the FGFA.
>It doesn't take a genius to figure out PakFA is just more Su-27 rehash slavshit.
Dunning-Krueger effect in action gents.
>Indians said no to a 40% discount.
The Ruble devaluated by more than 50%, no surprise the Indians rejected a 40% "discount" when in actuality the Russians would just pocket the rest as straight-up profit in Rubles.
>Russians cut orders because it's now clear that current engine is underpowered.
underpowered in comparison to what? the type-30 engine because yeah it sure as hell is. In comparison to the rest of 5th gen engines it can hold itself just fine.
No it does the take off like a helicopter, they got that working ages ago. The F-35 is in great shape and honestly the only reason the Indians aren't buying is because no ones selling to them. That and they've been trying to cozy up to the U.S. but aren't on the level of buying arms from them, especially after the U.S. treated them during the Soviet Era. Also that comparison you made doesn't really fit. The thing's coming along smoothly, has already produced upwards of 100 models, the first foreign models have been shipped, and most importantly the B model, which you erroneously claimed was still in development, has already reached initial operating capability.
>neat, both planes are pointy and have wings and engines
The PAK-FA is clearly based on the Flanker frame. I don't get why anons get so defensive over this, its not like Flankers have a bad reputation.
>That is actually what the RuAF is doing. They cut orders of the PakFA and ordered more Su-35S.
Bull. Knaapo just concluded its 48 fighter contract and no additional planes were ordered by the RuAF- which is ok btw as they are going to be busty with foreign contracts next.
>You won't hear about it because the State controls and censors the media, but there is probably a lot of infighting between Sukhoi and the RuAF going on right now over PakFA orders.
again, another bull. the State practically bankrolls the entire thing so nobody can complain really; well its not their money at risk here so they can't.
>A completely sub-optimal solution that doesn't approach S-duct capability.
or perhaps you know something the pros don't?
This isn't the US; retest / recert for Russia can be "she'll be right m8"; something that India's a bit annoyed with Russia about in fact (in regards to weapons certifying).
Just look at how they threw it straight into the MAKS and had it suffer compressor stalls on the ground.
Radar blockers create (slightly) turbulent airflow for the engine, reducing the engine pressure ratio. S ducts don't put such harsh obstructions in the way, so if you design them properly, you have fewer losses / greater performance. That's why the F-35 and F-22 use them.
>So they are making a completely new variant of it. 4 years after production started?
No. The new engines are unlikely to ever reach production. The PAK-FA is powered by the AL31 and always will be.
Izdelie 30 is a drawing on the back of a vodka bottle at this point and there's no money to make it anything else.
>By the time it goes into production 6th generation prototypes will be out.
I literally lol'd at this. You are more delusional than the Ivans if you honestly believe that. You will be lucky to have the F35 combat ready by then. 6th gen will still just be CG renderings and pipe dreams.
>No. The new engines are unlikely to ever reach production. The PAK-FA is powered by the AL31 and always will be.
holy shit mang you can see the fucking future- now predict the lottery numbers for this week or you're a faggot.
People don't get basic stuff like that the F-15 was in service when Star Wars A New Hope was released and will still be in service after Episode 9!
But yeah, the F-35 will only be in service for 10 years.
>6th gen will still just be CG renderings and pipe dreams.
Prototypes will be out by 2025. Navy wants a replacement for their F-18 Super Hornets.
It has been spelled out very clearly in publicly accessible Congressional Reports. It is common knowledge and common sense that the only major air-frame in the Navy not being replaced by the F-35 would have an early replacement.
>Also suddendly between Egypt, India, Quatar and the FAF, Dassault has too many orders on the Rafale
Well, it's not American, and it's sold with "no strings attached". It's literally in the ad. Yes, there are ads about the Rafale in specialized magazines. The French have always been very honest and open about their planes, which is what used to have so many Mirages sell. Murricans and Russians got the overhand because their planes were cheaper, but now they're looking for reliable and dependable stuff, so they turn to the French.
Now the thing is, France didn't really aim to sell Rafales. They aimed to sell the Rafale itself.
I haven't checked those sales the slightest, but since the beginning, France aimed to sell all the R&D along with it, and help countries build their own Rafale factories so they can produce those themselves. They're not just turnkey planes, and a country could even use it as a basis on which to make their own planes. Hence the huge price.
I'm not sure how this enters in consideration of those sales, whether France changed its approach and started selling turnkey Rafales, or sticked with it which eventually had countries consider it, but either way it's one important point of it.
Most contract seem to go with significant technological transfers these days, but except in the initial MMRCA contract it is mostly aimed at acquiring technological blocks, developing independant maintance and future upgrade programs it seems (with significant participation from Dassault, Thales and other french companies into these programs, up to 50% of the Indian contract value, for example, back to indian companies, which is not necessarily a bad thing considering the indian ambitions for future local projects), and further down the line integrating these technolgies into their own national programs. I don't believe any of the other current or near-future possible Rafale buyer (Egypt, Qatar, UAE, Singapore, Saudi Arabia) has any intention to build the planes, as far as I know, or even localy assemble them, even India seems to forget that and aims at developping a strong experience before their upcoming AMCA program.
I don't think either they're awfully worried about selling Rafale technological elements except for the most recent electronic warfare stuff, the plane itself is not that young and by the time all of this is mastered by India, France will probably be on its way with developping whatever happens after the Rafale.
>France will probably be on its way with developping whatever happens after the Rafale.
Hopefully they where already started on that and the plane finaly finding buyers gave Dassault the boost to kick the works into higher gears
There are alot of building blocks developped here and there in the wake of the Rafale mid life upgrade program, they have surprisingly strong experience in RCS reducing features, with the second largest radar echo chamber in the world (at least, a couple years ago). But at this point the reflexion is so much in its early stages they're wondering what the future of air force will vaguely look like, between manned and unmanned combat platforms, if a single omnirole aircraft is still an acceptable compromise or if they will develop several planes, etc.
Well the post 2020 upgrade will definetly help with some of the biggest weaknesses of the Rafale, namely its poor BVR, and overall air policing capabilities.
As for the future, BAe and Dassault have joined their Taranis and nEUROn project into the FCAS, which should be some kind of stealthy and optionally manned aircraft. I just hope it will sail smoother than other European projects involving the French.
India is chronically incompetenet. It took them days to clear Pathankot airbase when it was attacked by four gunmen recently. They had a whole load of shitty "special forces" outfits trying to run things.