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ATF attacking trusts
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons

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http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/04/atf-publishes-final-rule-in-relation-to-atf-41p/#comments
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>>28435250
FŪŪŪŪŪŪCK!
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What is this even about?
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>>28435309
>it will now require any person involved in the fictitious entity that “has the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the entity insofar as they pertain to firearms” to submit photographs, fingerprints and submit to a NICS check.
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>>28435309
Remember how if your local LEO was a Nazi that denied NFA forms (effectively banning NFA items) you could just use a trust? Not anymore.
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>>28435322
>fictitious entity that “has the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the entity insofar as they pertain to firearms”
This is particularly unclear to me. What are they on about? What are these fucking "trusts"?
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>>28435348
You need to submit fingerprints and passport photos and paers and shit and get your local LEO to approve your buying/building an NFA item.

You used to avoid that by starting a trust (Company-Person, basically it was 'you' if you sexually and legaly identified as a corporate entity) then you just submit the application under your trust and avoid the LEO saying no, and most of the bullshit
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>Virtually no crimes committed with registered NFA firearms or items
>Like literally almost zero
>"Guise this is a serious problem we need more restrictions on NFA stuff"
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Did, did Obama just offer us a trade instead of an actual grab here?
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I just got my trust made.

If I purchase a suppressor NOW, do you guys think I could get in before this goes into effect?
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>>28435394
>offer

more like forced

>stronger background checks
>trusts out the window

>well you guys can have faster 24/7 NICS checks and we won't essentially ban private sales or imports
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>>28435348
In order to legally posses an NFA item as an individual you must have the signature of a local chief law enforcement officer. Before this ruling another way to posses NFA firearms was as part of a non person legal entity known as a trust. If you formed a trust and acquired NFA items through it you didn't have to get a CLEO signature, or submit fingerprints or photographs or pass a background check (how ironic is it that you could legally posses a machinegun without passing a federal background check)

Thanks to king nigger and rule 41P now any human able to posses the firearms owned by the trust they are a part of will have to submit photos and fingerprints and pass background checks, however they will still not require a CLEO sign off. Instead the new law requires you to simply notify the local CLEO upon your taking possession of any NFA item. I think anyway.
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>>28435447
What's wrong with stronger background checks? If we're gonna have them, we might as well do them right.
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Man if it was "File fingerprints and photo from everyone once, then an automated NICS query with each purchase" I could care less. But if I have my family in my trust, to avoid accidental felonies, it becomes a huge burden to buy anything. Not a single person in my trust would fail a NICS query... but seriously.
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>>28435592
all the more reason to just remove SBRs and cans from the NFA
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Whats the point of fingerprinting everyone? I'm like 100% sure that if someone is willing to jump through the hoops of a trust they're not going to commit crimes knowingly with it.
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>>28435660
It's death by 1000 cuts... they can get away with it right now, so they'll do it. Anything that lets them get a piece.

If they can stop one person from buying something because of the inconvenience they win.
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>>28435660
they're bureaucrats. what's more to say, m8?
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>>28435675
>>28435681
That's fuckin stupid. Id like to say /k/ is the reason I'm so extreme with my gun beliefs but honestly its all these people who don't understand trying to legislate. The more they push one way the further I go the opposite
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>>28435731
well, you what they say: politics swing like a pendulum.
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>>28435250
Well at least you don't need CLEO approval anymore. Those guys can be shits.
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>>28435802
You still do, just not when transferring an NFA item.
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>>28435383
/liberals/
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Good to see they're doing their job.
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So does the atf actually do anything regarding alcohol or tabacco? I know its part if their job somehow (shouldn't the fda be in charge of those?) But I never hear about that. You only hear firearms and explosives, so give me some news where they busted a fake whiskey dealer or some shit.
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>>28435955
Never. Never have I ever heard the ATF doing anything other than raid people and create obscene rulings.

All the drugs and booze is enforced by the DEA, I would imagine.
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Don't worry guys, I pay my NRA membership fee. They'll stop this shit
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>>28435731
they dont pass laws they expect you to abide by

they pass laws they expect you to break

prison is an industry in this country
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>>28435407

180 days until in effect
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>>28435955

They enforce taxation of tobacco and alcohol.
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>>28436438
>implying it will go into effect

He bundled spending into it, he is going to get rekt
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>>28435567
>bait
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>>28435343
You still don't need CLEO sign off, just CLEO notification
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>>28435955
If you live in an area with known moonshine production (like Virginia) you will see them bust up some stills, sometimes. Mostly its handled at a state level though. I have never heard anything about tobacco or other smokeables, though, I assume DEA handles those.
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>>28435365
This same bill is making it so LEOs only have to be notified now, you don't need them to sign off anymore
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>ATF has gone away from its CLEO certification requirement and implemented a CLEO notification requirement.

This is all I care about.

After all, wasn't the bullshit CLEO sign-off the reason we started using trusts in the first place? Now you can save hundreds of dollars and a bunch of paperwork not having to form a trust because your local chief of police won't let you buy an NFA item.

Sure, it's a mild inconvenience for people who formed trusts so, say, they and their wife could share ownership of the gun, but taking an extra set of prints is a fair price for getting rid of the possibility that some fat bureaucrat will reject your app arbitrarily.
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>>28435447
Wait, he's lifting the import restrictions?

Cheap Korean Garands when?
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>>28435250
>thread headline is "ATF attacking trusts"
>actual link is a short blurb stating CLEO signoffs are no longer required, but everyone in a trust now requires a background check

mods plz delete misinfo bait
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>>28435250
now that the ATF is its own agency, and no longer part of the Treasury Department, does it have the legal authority to change the definition of what a trust is?
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>>28435955

Moonshiner here.

ATF has a branch called the TTB (tax and tariff bureau). They enforce federal liquor laws and collect tax on hooch. If you produce liquor in this country, your still must be permitted by them.

They sometimes raid operations, but mostly that is left to state agencies (e.g. Virginia ABC)

In states with no moonshine culture (which is most places outside the deep south), there is basically no one enforcing liquor laws against moonshine unless you get really big or stupid.

It's a fun hobby, you can make some money on the side and produce really interesting things. If you are in the deep south, you need to be really careful about it as the state agencies can be vigorous, corrupt, incompetent or all of the above.
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>>28435660
just one more little "fuck you" from the government

King Nigger is pissed thay he cant get anything done and he is well aware that 99.999% of the guys with trusts will never vote democrat anyway, so he's sticking it to us any way he can.

you remember all those people who said Obama is a petty asshole? remember the shoes on the desk while talking to the Israeli PM (pol contain yourselves) and the middle finger nose scratching during the debates?

thats what this is to the hardcore gun crowd.

he can also use it to pander to the democrat base.

for him its a win-win
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>>28438061
in glorious state of Pennsylvania, I can produce 200 gallons a year for "personal use", which includes my own consumption, sharing with family and friends, and gifting. I can't sell a single drop without a license, though which is totally enforceable.
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>>28436434
having responsible taxpayers is more profitable than incarcerating responsible taxpayers who then cant pay taxes

you sound like the same type of idiot who believes that there is a magical cure for "cancer" that big pharma is hiding from everyone
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>>28438136

Distilled spirits or just beer/wine/cider? Big difference in the eyes of the ATF. Even if state law allows personal production of spirits, it's still illegal under federal law without a license. Now, as I said, if the state agency isn't after you and you're not selling it, no one cares. The ATF has essentially said that enforcing liquor laws against hobby distillers is not something they will do.
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>>28435567
Coming up next:
>Australian-style "you need a valid reason to own a gun, no you don't get to choose, here's a list of five reasons, and self-defence is not on it."
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This is what it means to be in business, folks. Individual control requires individual accountability. This is a legal mechanism for controlling how your shit gets used, not for abstracting yourself from your shit.

Imagine a hospital where any hospital employee- from licensed doctors to the guy who in logs the shitter- would be allowed to perform brain surgery. That would suck.
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>>28435600
All the more reason for Congress to repeal the 1934 NFA.
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>>28438171

s/in logs/unclogs/

Fucking autocorrect.

> leaves "shitter" unaltered

mfw
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>>28438171
Jesus, where are all these leftist faggots coming from???
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>>28437950
wait wait wait,

are you saying that I can, as an individual, buy NFA stuff WITHOUT a CLEO sign-off so long as i notify the CLEO of the purchase with photos/prints?

and that I no longer need a trust to circumvent the CLEO sign-off requirement?

ist hat really what this all says?
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>>28438185

No leftist faggot here.

How are things at the Oregon standoff? Run out of Cheetos and Mountain Dew yet?
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>>28438233
>no leftist here

>says leftist shit.

fuck off bernie, adults are talking
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So is this relevant when the item is transferred to the trust or every time a new person is added to the trust?
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>>28438185

Get over yourself asshole. I'm very leftist on most issues (weed, religion, abortion, social welfare, taxation) but happen to be an avid shooter and collector. I own three NFA items and have had a C&R license for a decade.

You don't need to be an NRA caricature screaming about the tree of liberty all the time in order to be into guns.

In this case, I think the regulation change is a net positive as they got rid of the CLEO sign off. I live in Columbus, OH and formed my trust as the county sheriff was a dodering idiot who for years would not sign the Forms. Now I can just register shit in my name with no problems. Fingerprints are a pain, but who cares? If you're in the NFA game, you've already committed to a burdensome bureaucratic process.

Will this regulation change reduce crime? No, it will have no effect. All we are seeing is a change in regulation that takes NFA veto power away from asshole law enforcement officials.

Go get worked up over ranchers out west if you need to get the vapors about something.
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>>28438219
anyone?

what Im asking specifically is that woth the ATFs move from "certification" to "notification" of CLEO for trusts, will that standard also be applied to individuals not in a trust, but buying the firearms personally?
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>>28438248

> adults

> doesn't know how a trust works

Pick one
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>>28438268

No- it's relevant when control of ATF- regulated items in the trust change who controls their use.

If the trust has someone who manages and tracks the controlled items changes- Bob runs the armory, then Fred takes it over- the new guy needs a NICS check etc to keep it legit.
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>>28438269
here is the .00001% of assholes who own NFA and stilled voted for Obama.

a true army of one
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>>28438344

Also, if Bob and Fred both run the armory then they both need to do the dance.
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>>28438219
>>28438293

No. If you are buying as an individual you must still get a CLEO sign off. They worded it to sound like their giving you something but they're not.
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>>28437969
I don't think that's what he meant. Probably meant he won't ban any further imports but won't lift what he's already done.
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>>28437969
Please, God
OH FATHER IN HEAVEN PLEASE
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>>28438325
knowing how a trust works =/= knowing 250 pages of rules that literally just changed yesterday

shouldnt you be bidy wrapping the weed you're giving as a wedding gift to the interracial gay immigrant couple that lives down the street from you in your gated neighborhood?
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>>28435567
It's not even a stronger background check. It's the idiots that aren't particularly into guns but consider themselves "conservatives" fearmongering about edge cases already covered under existing law, in essence, the typical Rush Limbaugh listener.
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Everybody seems to have failed to notice the part where it says they intend to amend the definition of "persons" to include trusts. The whole thing is a smokescreen for their end run around Hollis.
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>>28438164
In PA there is no difference, federal regulations be damned.
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>>28438381
Akshualee....

its the fact thats its an extra pain in that ass for people who ARE heavily into the hobby that is pissing everyone off
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Why do people act like trusts are gone or worthless? Sure, every person needs a background check now, but I thought the point was to not have to pay the transfer fee for NFA items between individuals in the trust. That hasn't changed, the NFA items are still owned by the trust and can be physically possessed by any members of it.
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>>28438435
It is something of a pain because of how vague the seller line can be, yes.

The apocalyptic visions of the Rush Limbaugh listener (I'm listening to his show right now, so I'm listening to what at least some of his visitors think) do not reflect the reality of this situation.
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>>28438412
>implying Hollis wasn't going to be BTFOd anyway
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>>28435305
this seems like a tradeoff, from what i'm reading the cleo sign-off has been removed, though you still have to notify them but they can't say shit.

this means even non-trust transfers can happen in states like virginia where no cleo would sign off before.

yes everyone has to be printed, unless you have had a transfer in the last two years and no one on the trust has changed.
this still leaves the loophole that you can alter your revocable living trust at any time and add or remove anyone you want, i don't see any clause requiring a new trustee to be printed.

kind of a pain cause i don't have a wife so i have my nfa buddy on my trust and i'm on his, so now we each have to go in which is a pain.
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>>28435492
So, what this is building a NFA item registry? Doesn't the ATF already keep one of those?
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>>28435305
http://americansuppressorassociation.com/blog/
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>>28438557
all it does is expand the registry to everyone on the trust, it's a pain but the way it's set up it's not terrible, it could have been a lot worse if they didn't remove the cleo signoff portion.
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>>28438159
It's not about profit for the politicians. It's about profit for the corporations that donated to said politician's campaign.
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>>28435250
Am I the only one who thinks this change is overall pretty great?

Sure, Obama gutted gun trusts and I expect that this will apply to existing gun trusts as well, but the whole point of getting a gun trust was to bypass the CLEO signature, which was just axed. Now, new NFA owners can just apply as individuals and not have to worry about their CLEO rejecting their applications arbitrarily.

If you believe that the law should be applied uniformly to everyone, then all that has changed is that now it will be. Maybe now, all the people who feel wronged that they now have to submit photos, fingerprints and a background check will feel how unjust the law actually is, and instead of being complacent, they will push back with a lawsuit similar to Hollis v. Holder and get rid of the NFA entirely, which should have happened 30 years ago, back in 1985.
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>>28438347

Of course I voted for him. The alternatives were completely unpalatable. I'm an employee of the DoD. Either McCain or Romney would have been disasters. Don't even get me started on that idiot Palin.

And you know what, I voted for Obama twice and what happened to my guns or ability to buy more? Not a damn thing. Unlike yourself, I understand how our system of government works. The president had no ability to unilaterally change laws to any significant degree ( what happened today is about as far as he can go).

There is more than one issue in this world to consider when voting. Fuck the Republican party.
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>>28439023
>I'm an employee of the DoD
you gotta be a janitor or something
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>>28439097

They're all retarded contract employees (literally - we employ a contract company staffed by the mentally handicapped). I'm an engineer running quality control systems covering DoD contractors.
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>>28439097
Does it mean he does it for free?
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>>28438269
>using all those words to say "I'm a massive ponce"

>>28439023
>changing IPs just to tell us again
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>>28439795

You mean change IP'S because I post from a cell phone and a home computer? You totally got me. My argument is invalid.
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>>28439023
>>28439152
>>28439925
>I'm an employee of the DoD
>idiot Palin
>I voted for Obama twice
>Unlike yourself, I understand how our system of government works.
>Fuck the Republican party.
>I'm an engineer

Reddit: the post. But really, you come off as a conceited twat. This EO is nothing but a middle finger to, quite literally, the most law abiding gun owners.

And what do you have to say about it? Oh right, "Fuck the Republican party."
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>>28438577
That seems like a poor trade-off then. It feels like this is some half-step closer to the ATF shutting down trusts or any ownership of NFA items. An expanded registry (of firearms or owners) seems like a dark cloud on the horizon. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
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>>28442071
No, that's the goal, they'll tell you themselves.
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>>28439152
>quality control systems
>implying any sort of DoD control system is quality
my sides
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All these "common sense, feel good laws" and still nothing will prevent some asshole from straw purchasing some guns for stupid reasons.
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>>28440025
Palin ACTUALLY is a fucking idiot
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>>28442249
Perhaps, but the point still stands.
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>>28436071
Always
Think
Forfeiture
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>>28437978
>mods
what a sissified bootlicker
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>>28442249
>baaaaaa
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>>28435250
Welp, there's absolutely no point to Trusts now.

This is why filing as an individual has always been master race, now more than ever since that CLEO's can't stop you anymore.
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>>28435955
They chase around red necks making shine, that's about it.


They serve no purpose but to give themselves a reason to exist.


Please someone help us.....
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>>28435365
Will it be retroactive?
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>>28438171
forcing brain surgeons to register their brain killing assault hands won't stop bob the maintence guy from putting on scrubs and picking up a skull saw you statist faggot
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You all need to start thinking about what loopholes or how this could be used to add more gun control. There is always a reason for shit like this. It is never a benefit in the long-term.
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>>28435567
>stronger background checks

nice buzzword
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>>28443163
to fuck over the status of trusts so hollis v holder doesn't give us serfs legal post '86 machineguns, duh.
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Anyone else pissed as fuck that a group of non-elected fucking bureaucrats get to unilaterally, literally on a DAY BY FUCKING DAY BASIS completely change how you buy, own, use, and transport private items that you fucking own?

You don't see the fucking highway administration changing the speed limit on the freeway every fucking day.
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>>28443268
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>>28443380
they would if they could. But putting up new signs costs money.

Making arbitrary rulings about guns is free.
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>>28438269
>takes NFA veto power away from asshole law enforcement officials
we already had that with trusts
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>>28435250
Who cares their just guns with full auto in them.
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>>28438347
That movie. That fucking movie.
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>>28438159
>Raw organic food cures cancer, juicing raw cannabis leaves cures cancer(no high), urine therapy cures cancer...

Fluoride causes cancer. Something like 70% of US drinking water if artificially fluoridated. Bottled water in the US is federally regulated and must contain artificial fluoride.

The pharmasucical industry is estimated to be earning into the 800 Billion dollars per year range.

Just ask Monsanto, Bayer, Physer, Dupont, DOW chemical company...

This shit is deep noob. Like agent orange(cancer,birth defects). 50% of the chemicals produced to make agent orange were pushed into use by a law that passed the year before last.

That's why your uncle, brother, mother, sister, ect are mentally defunct or have depression. Its like a spinning wheel of tax revenue...

>$800,000,000,000 per year. Sick, huh?

America is a chemical wasteland because Monsanto and pharmaceutical companies fast track employees into the government. Look it up. Google know all about it....
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>>28443268
>This

Can you imagine how much freedom we would have with FA funs? The amount of interest in firearms would skyrocket...
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>>28443229
Like the Obama-Bush-Clinton-Queen of England-GE-Monsanto-DuPont-Rothschild-Murdoch kind of connections that they wish we couldn't find on google....

Why are THEY prying so deep into us? I know why.

What is fiat currency? Slavery perhaps? Who owns the vast majority of central banks? Funds the wars? Established 80% of media controlled by one man?

Anyone here connecting the dots yet?

They want to enslave the world and america is posing the most threat. Americans are the most established and radical freeedom loving, piss on taxes nation with access and training to liberation tools like the freeweb and military gear.

Who do you think owned the most slaves? The family with the most money to lend/
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>>28445053
> I don't understand the first goddamned thing about organic chemistry or toxicity: the post.
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>>28446670
Bait.

Organic or die, pussy.
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>>28446722
Chew some magnolia leaves. Let us know how harmless "nature" can be.
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>>28446670
http://fluoridealert.org/articles/ourdailydose/
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>>28447137
Google it. Use Those names and companies above as key words and read the first few pages over the course of a few days. Your mind will be blown.
>>
>>28445053
>50% of the chemicals produced to make agent orange were pushed into use
Fuckin' dastardly how oxygen and hydrogen get into the water too.
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