>it will now require any person involved in the fictitious entity that “has the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the entity insofar as they pertain to firearms” to submit photographs, fingerprints and submit to a NICS check.
>fictitious entity that “has the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the entity insofar as they pertain to firearms”
This is particularly unclear to me. What are they on about? What are these fucking "trusts"?
You need to submit fingerprints and passport photos and paers and shit and get your local LEO to approve your buying/building an NFA item.
You used to avoid that by starting a trust (Company-Person, basically it was 'you' if you sexually and legaly identified as a corporate entity) then you just submit the application under your trust and avoid the LEO saying no, and most of the bullshit
Did, did Obama just offer us a trade instead of an actual grab here?
In order to legally posses an NFA item as an individual you must have the signature of a local chief law enforcement officer. Before this ruling another way to posses NFA firearms was as part of a non person legal entity known as a trust. If you formed a trust and acquired NFA items through it you didn't have to get a CLEO signature, or submit fingerprints or photographs or pass a background check (how ironic is it that you could legally posses a machinegun without passing a federal background check)
Thanks to king nigger and rule 41P now any human able to posses the firearms owned by the trust they are a part of will have to submit photos and fingerprints and pass background checks, however they will still not require a CLEO sign off. Instead the new law requires you to simply notify the local CLEO upon your taking possession of any NFA item. I think anyway.
Man if it was "File fingerprints and photo from everyone once, then an automated NICS query with each purchase" I could care less. But if I have my family in my trust, to avoid accidental felonies, it becomes a huge burden to buy anything. Not a single person in my trust would fail a NICS query... but seriously.
It's death by 1000 cuts... they can get away with it right now, so they'll do it. Anything that lets them get a piece.
If they can stop one person from buying something because of the inconvenience they win.
That's fuckin stupid. Id like to say /k/ is the reason I'm so extreme with my gun beliefs but honestly its all these people who don't understand trying to legislate. The more they push one way the further I go the opposite
So does the atf actually do anything regarding alcohol or tabacco? I know its part if their job somehow (shouldn't the fda be in charge of those?) But I never hear about that. You only hear firearms and explosives, so give me some news where they busted a fake whiskey dealer or some shit.
If you live in an area with known moonshine production (like Virginia) you will see them bust up some stills, sometimes. Mostly its handled at a state level though. I have never heard anything about tobacco or other smokeables, though, I assume DEA handles those.
>ATF has gone away from its CLEO certification requirement and implemented a CLEO notification requirement.
This is all I care about.
After all, wasn't the bullshit CLEO sign-off the reason we started using trusts in the first place? Now you can save hundreds of dollars and a bunch of paperwork not having to form a trust because your local chief of police won't let you buy an NFA item.
Sure, it's a mild inconvenience for people who formed trusts so, say, they and their wife could share ownership of the gun, but taking an extra set of prints is a fair price for getting rid of the possibility that some fat bureaucrat will reject your app arbitrarily.
>thread headline is "ATF attacking trusts"
>actual link is a short blurb stating CLEO signoffs are no longer required, but everyone in a trust now requires a background check
mods plz delete misinfo bait
ATF has a branch called the TTB (tax and tariff bureau). They enforce federal liquor laws and collect tax on hooch. If you produce liquor in this country, your still must be permitted by them.
They sometimes raid operations, but mostly that is left to state agencies (e.g. Virginia ABC)
In states with no moonshine culture (which is most places outside the deep south), there is basically no one enforcing liquor laws against moonshine unless you get really big or stupid.
It's a fun hobby, you can make some money on the side and produce really interesting things. If you are in the deep south, you need to be really careful about it as the state agencies can be vigorous, corrupt, incompetent or all of the above.
just one more little "fuck you" from the government
King Nigger is pissed thay he cant get anything done and he is well aware that 99.999% of the guys with trusts will never vote democrat anyway, so he's sticking it to us any way he can.
you remember all those people who said Obama is a petty asshole? remember the shoes on the desk while talking to the Israeli PM (pol contain yourselves) and the middle finger nose scratching during the debates?
thats what this is to the hardcore gun crowd.
he can also use it to pander to the democrat base.
for him its a win-win
in glorious state of Pennsylvania, I can produce 200 gallons a year for "personal use", which includes my own consumption, sharing with family and friends, and gifting. I can't sell a single drop without a license, though which is totally enforceable.
having responsible taxpayers is more profitable than incarcerating responsible taxpayers who then cant pay taxes
you sound like the same type of idiot who believes that there is a magical cure for "cancer" that big pharma is hiding from everyone
Distilled spirits or just beer/wine/cider? Big difference in the eyes of the ATF. Even if state law allows personal production of spirits, it's still illegal under federal law without a license. Now, as I said, if the state agency isn't after you and you're not selling it, no one cares. The ATF has essentially said that enforcing liquor laws against hobby distillers is not something they will do.
This is what it means to be in business, folks. Individual control requires individual accountability. This is a legal mechanism for controlling how your shit gets used, not for abstracting yourself from your shit.
Imagine a hospital where any hospital employee- from licensed doctors to the guy who in logs the shitter- would be allowed to perform brain surgery. That would suck.
wait wait wait,
are you saying that I can, as an individual, buy NFA stuff WITHOUT a CLEO sign-off so long as i notify the CLEO of the purchase with photos/prints?
and that I no longer need a trust to circumvent the CLEO sign-off requirement?
ist hat really what this all says?
Get over yourself asshole. I'm very leftist on most issues (weed, religion, abortion, social welfare, taxation) but happen to be an avid shooter and collector. I own three NFA items and have had a C&R license for a decade.
You don't need to be an NRA caricature screaming about the tree of liberty all the time in order to be into guns.
In this case, I think the regulation change is a net positive as they got rid of the CLEO sign off. I live in Columbus, OH and formed my trust as the county sheriff was a dodering idiot who for years would not sign the Forms. Now I can just register shit in my name with no problems. Fingerprints are a pain, but who cares? If you're in the NFA game, you've already committed to a burdensome bureaucratic process.
Will this regulation change reduce crime? No, it will have no effect. All we are seeing is a change in regulation that takes NFA veto power away from asshole law enforcement officials.
Go get worked up over ranchers out west if you need to get the vapors about something.
what Im asking specifically is that woth the ATFs move from "certification" to "notification" of CLEO for trusts, will that standard also be applied to individuals not in a trust, but buying the firearms personally?
No- it's relevant when control of ATF- regulated items in the trust change who controls their use.
If the trust has someone who manages and tracks the controlled items changes- Bob runs the armory, then Fred takes it over- the new guy needs a NICS check etc to keep it legit.
here is the .00001% of assholes who own NFA and stilled voted for Obama.
a true army of one
knowing how a trust works =/= knowing 250 pages of rules that literally just changed yesterday
shouldnt you be bidy wrapping the weed you're giving as a wedding gift to the interracial gay immigrant couple that lives down the street from you in your gated neighborhood?
It's not even a stronger background check. It's the idiots that aren't particularly into guns but consider themselves "conservatives" fearmongering about edge cases already covered under existing law, in essence, the typical Rush Limbaugh listener.
Everybody seems to have failed to notice the part where it says they intend to amend the definition of "persons" to include trusts. The whole thing is a smokescreen for their end run around Hollis.
Why do people act like trusts are gone or worthless? Sure, every person needs a background check now, but I thought the point was to not have to pay the transfer fee for NFA items between individuals in the trust. That hasn't changed, the NFA items are still owned by the trust and can be physically possessed by any members of it.
It is something of a pain because of how vague the seller line can be, yes.
The apocalyptic visions of the Rush Limbaugh listener (I'm listening to his show right now, so I'm listening to what at least some of his visitors think) do not reflect the reality of this situation.
this seems like a tradeoff, from what i'm reading the cleo sign-off has been removed, though you still have to notify them but they can't say shit.
this means even non-trust transfers can happen in states like virginia where no cleo would sign off before.
yes everyone has to be printed, unless you have had a transfer in the last two years and no one on the trust has changed.
this still leaves the loophole that you can alter your revocable living trust at any time and add or remove anyone you want, i don't see any clause requiring a new trustee to be printed.
kind of a pain cause i don't have a wife so i have my nfa buddy on my trust and i'm on his, so now we each have to go in which is a pain.
all it does is expand the registry to everyone on the trust, it's a pain but the way it's set up it's not terrible, it could have been a lot worse if they didn't remove the cleo signoff portion.
Am I the only one who thinks this change is overall pretty great?
Sure, Obama gutted gun trusts and I expect that this will apply to existing gun trusts as well, but the whole point of getting a gun trust was to bypass the CLEO signature, which was just axed. Now, new NFA owners can just apply as individuals and not have to worry about their CLEO rejecting their applications arbitrarily.
If you believe that the law should be applied uniformly to everyone, then all that has changed is that now it will be. Maybe now, all the people who feel wronged that they now have to submit photos, fingerprints and a background check will feel how unjust the law actually is, and instead of being complacent, they will push back with a lawsuit similar to Hollis v. Holder and get rid of the NFA entirely, which should have happened 30 years ago, back in 1985.
Of course I voted for him. The alternatives were completely unpalatable. I'm an employee of the DoD. Either McCain or Romney would have been disasters. Don't even get me started on that idiot Palin.
And you know what, I voted for Obama twice and what happened to my guns or ability to buy more? Not a damn thing. Unlike yourself, I understand how our system of government works. The president had no ability to unilaterally change laws to any significant degree ( what happened today is about as far as he can go).
There is more than one issue in this world to consider when voting. Fuck the Republican party.
They're all retarded contract employees (literally - we employ a contract company staffed by the mentally handicapped). I'm an engineer running quality control systems covering DoD contractors.
>I'm an employee of the DoD
>I voted for Obama twice
>Unlike yourself, I understand how our system of government works.
>Fuck the Republican party.
>I'm an engineer
Reddit: the post. But really, you come off as a conceited twat. This EO is nothing but a middle finger to, quite literally, the most law abiding gun owners.
And what do you have to say about it? Oh right, "Fuck the Republican party."
That seems like a poor trade-off then. It feels like this is some half-step closer to the ATF shutting down trusts or any ownership of NFA items. An expanded registry (of firearms or owners) seems like a dark cloud on the horizon. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
>quality control systems
>implying any sort of DoD control system is quality
All these "common sense, feel good laws" and still nothing will prevent some asshole from straw purchasing some guns for stupid reasons.
forcing brain surgeons to register their brain killing assault hands won't stop bob the maintence guy from putting on scrubs and picking up a skull saw you statist faggot
You all need to start thinking about what loopholes or how this could be used to add more gun control. There is always a reason for shit like this. It is never a benefit in the long-term.
Anyone else pissed as fuck that a group of non-elected fucking bureaucrats get to unilaterally, literally on a DAY BY FUCKING DAY BASIS completely change how you buy, own, use, and transport private items that you fucking own?
You don't see the fucking highway administration changing the speed limit on the freeway every fucking day.
>Raw organic food cures cancer, juicing raw cannabis leaves cures cancer(no high), urine therapy cures cancer...
Fluoride causes cancer. Something like 70% of US drinking water if artificially fluoridated. Bottled water in the US is federally regulated and must contain artificial fluoride.
The pharmasucical industry is estimated to be earning into the 800 Billion dollars per year range.
Just ask Monsanto, Bayer, Physer, Dupont, DOW chemical company...
This shit is deep noob. Like agent orange(cancer,birth defects). 50% of the chemicals produced to make agent orange were pushed into use by a law that passed the year before last.
That's why your uncle, brother, mother, sister, ect are mentally defunct or have depression. Its like a spinning wheel of tax revenue...
>$800,000,000,000 per year. Sick, huh?
America is a chemical wasteland because Monsanto and pharmaceutical companies fast track employees into the government. Look it up. Google know all about it....
Like the Obama-Bush-Clinton-Queen of England-GE-Monsanto-DuPont-Rothschild-Murdoch kind of connections that they wish we couldn't find on google....
Why are THEY prying so deep into us? I know why.
What is fiat currency? Slavery perhaps? Who owns the vast majority of central banks? Funds the wars? Established 80% of media controlled by one man?
Anyone here connecting the dots yet?
They want to enslave the world and america is posing the most threat. Americans are the most established and radical freeedom loving, piss on taxes nation with access and training to liberation tools like the freeweb and military gear.
Who do you think owned the most slaves? The family with the most money to lend/
> I don't understand the first goddamned thing about organic chemistry or toxicity: the post.