What is /k/'s opinion on Travis Haley? War hero? Accomplished soldier? Successful businessman? Top tier instructor? Or just a fad, and mallninja-pandering fag?
He's not really concerned with being an "innovator" by making stupid ass gimmicky tacticool techniques (chris costmore), and he has experience (that doesn't involve forgetting how to drive and running away), and he's not a self righteous pseudo-intellectual dickcheese (Yeager and Costa), so he's alright in my book.
costa let his ego get the best of him
Yeager is just a stuborn hot head who cares too much about what a bunch of armchair operators think.
Travis is the only one who explains why it works and how to be adaptive. this is often lost on people who think they should do what they see every fucking time. Example: TOB autist
>Travis is the only one who explains why it works and how to be adaptive. this is often lost on people who think they should do what they see every fucking time. Example: TOB autist
He's the only decent one out of that bunch right there.
Don't know why he isn't working for Gunsite or Thunder Rance or even Academi
That's sorta what I was going to say. Despite his achievements, his experience, the whole Magpul thing and now his own gig, he still seems pretty down to earth, and humble. I saw an interview of him at ShotShow, and really liked a lot of what he said. He's less concerned about how it looks, or what people thinks, and tries to be a realist, even if it hurts. I think lots of people could learn from him.
I love Haley, especially after watching some Magpul video outtakes and seeing his real attitude, seems like a really cool guy with a lot of good knowledge
Seems legit enough.
Though for "former Ninja-turned-Shooting Instructor Celebrity" I still choose Kyle Lamb, who is even less gimmicky and more barebones and to the point.
Kyle Lamb is just better overall.
Haley is just too tactically dynamically optimally high speed low drag for me. Also those "the universe revolves around the rifle" speeches he does are just making things seem bigger than they are.
Kyle Lamb and Frank Proctor are by far the most legit instructors out there, at least for those who are looking for tactical training.
I like his stuff, worth listening to.
I guess I may emulate his tactics, take what I find useful, but I don't try to outright imitate him like the couchninja might...
Like some young guy will say, "No, reload like this. Thats how Haley/Costa does it, its a third of a second faster than your way!" That's kind of annoying.
well they were both obviously with magpul and i think at some point haley was costas boss then they both just left and started their own ventures and i've never seen either mention the other at all in their videos i could be totally wrong though
Recently on Haley's plebbook page he posted a video of him with a different bearded fellow. Someone commented they thought the bearded fellow was Costa for a moment to which Haley replied, "God no!"
When someone said that this reply was rather curt Haley answered, "No comment."
There's some kind of bad blood, honestly I think Costa and Haley agreed to swap wives. Costa gave Haley's wife the D and when it was time for Costa's wife to reciprocate she refused and Haley has been bitter ever since.
It's the only plausible explanation.
Knows what he's talking about without the ego so prevalent in the industry. Yet he's better at marketing than almost all other instructors. OralIV aside, the products he designs and endorses are pretty good.
Prettiest skin in the industry.
>Prettiest skin in the industry
He had skin cancer at one point, and I think his wife is a dermatologist, so he uses sunscreen and moisturizes.
>you will never rub sunscreen on Haley's back after a long day of operating
>top tier instructor
Minus that hero bit, he is every good thing you pointed out and none of the bad. His accomplishments speak for him.
If you want my opinion... he's been batting .300 for a hot minute. I doubt that anyone here has any business judging him.
You think he's cute, you can admit it
I tried watching his videos on how to shoot better but half the time he has his fucking shot timer out and it's annoying as fuck. All I want to know is how to be a better shot Jerry, not know how fast you can eat a bowl of cereal.
I hate him because he's super popular.
I really like James Yeager and will probably end up taking a fighting pistol class eventually. I didn't like him at first but the more videos I watched I realized he's actually a really cool dude and isn't a huge pandering pussy.
After watching hot shots and the way he acts towards fans at shot show vs his YouTube videos I think he's actually pretty humble in person. Seems like he gets pumped or more aggressive at the range
I think he's a good shooter and seems to be a good instructor, although a lot of his stuff is very flashy and almost competition-y sometimes.
That said, as
pointed out, I would rather take a class from the "Tier 1" guys if I were going to be shelling the money out. I don't doubt that the conventional and SOCOM guys are damn good, but the JSOC/Tier 1 dudes are on a whole other level in terms of training and experience. The ex-Delta guys like Vickers, Lamb, Howe, McPhee, McNamara, Spooner, Pannone, and ST6 Defoor have a background of conventional infantry skills sharpened to a razor's edge coupled with the commando skills that everyone raves about.
To me, those guys just ooze this aura of skull crushing killer, especially guys like McPhee and Spooner who have literally kicked in more doors than I've opened in a lifetime.
only if he'll fag marry me.
was recommended it by /k/ and bought his book at a gun show for a song and there's a lot of little interesting weapons things in it you might not know without being .mil, a chunk of it ar specific.
this. he's an amazing shooter and competitor but i really don't give a fuck's shit for that timer he always has.
i'd do him, let balls touch and make eye contact. full homo, cuddling afterwards.
>letting someone else fuck your wife
>doing it right
Top kek, cuckolds pls go
Unless you were talking about the three lasers in which case I'm all for turning one's gun into the Predator.
There's an interview where he talks about his time in Iraq and how Delta basically reinvented how all SOF hit targets while they were chasing down Zarqawi and other HVTs. Intel for them was solid, but it had a very fast expiration date. Coupled with lack of planning and infrastructure, doing the old school thing of looking at blue prints, rehearsing, mock executions, etc. was not possible. So instead they just developed a more free-form style of building clearing that was faster and more violent and they would hit one building, gather intel and HVTs, and then extract and go directly to the next target. They had to retrain and teach guys from the SAS and SBS and other units how to do this when they got grouped into the JSOC TF packages.
There is Mike Lamb who is the roided MARSOC Marine dude and Kyle Lamb who is the retired sergeant major Delta force operator, he was in Mogadishu. They're totally unrelated to each other.
Who teaches a mix of survival skills and operating skills? Like how in the day MACV SOG fellas would spend 3 days in foliage collecting intel from a telephone wire and avoiding patrols and such.
If you want some 3 gun competition speed mixed with tactical movement watch Frank Proctor's videos, he is retired Green Beret and is also a USPSA Grand Master.
I've never once managed to get through more than 3 minutes of a Nutnfancy video. I can watch Hickok for hours because he's actually entertaining.
I tried watching a Nutn Glock 20 video and he spent the first 5 minutes of a 56 minute video talking about how it was going to be a long video.
>god fucking dammit he won't own up to his own mistakes
Seriously this. If he admit he fucked up and honestly learn from it he would be a lot more respected. But all he does is:
>HURR DURR I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE ANY DIFFERENT COME FIGHT ME IF YOU DISAGREE
are you retarded?
I mean he's made alot of progress over the past 4 years, but holy shit, why won't he own up to his own shit.
Tangentially related, what's the name of that fella that's super into sniping? I remember he did some really long range shots with an M4-alike to prove that they're just fine accuracy-wise.
>He's not really concerned with being an "innovator" by making stupid ass gimmicky tacticool techniques
I agree that he does not seem to be about the gimmicks, but he does try to innovate with his own drills and techniques
Anyone want to come take a Tactical Response class with me? I want to meet Reid too.
>I signed up for the course about a week-and-a-half beforehand. I learned that James Yeager had a finished basement in his home that he had turned into a barracks / frat house living quarters known as the “Team Room”. As part of the course, you can stay in this for no charge (though there is a donation jar that I recommend you contribute to). I decided to stay there instead of a hotel in Camden.
I think it's a Browning Buckmark. The barrel profile looks right and the safety and bolt release are in the right spot. At first I thought a Ruger Mk II or III but the safety and bolt release are all wrong.
Long story short:
>Yeager with his PMC buddies in a car waiting for their pick up
>He puts the car in neutral
>Gets shot at by RPK
>Yeager panics, forgets the car is in neutral, thought the car was broken
>Bails the car with all his buddies still inside (one shot later dead and one wounded shooting back)
>Yeager runs off alone to hide in other side of the road in prone
That's as far as I can remember
You can take the most experienced shit hot opr8r delta ksk parachute knife wielding commando and it wont mean shit if he can't effectively communicate concepts to you and you specifically.
this is what people dont get about a teaching, its not as simple as just having experience in the subject matter.
Its like the old adage in boxing, the best trainers were not necessarily successful fighters, and the best fighters rarely make good trainers.
Now bear in mind, I'm not saying anything against vickers, lamb or howe etc, but people need to stop getting their dick hard looking at credentials and start looking at how well the person does what you are paying them to do: teach.
This is the same reason i dont care for /k/'s "hurr durr costa was only a coast guard", its obvious the man is a very good teacher. If the metric is experience, well im sure theres some 11B high school drop out who got into a firefight every single day during afghanistan, but hes probably not going to be able to teach you much and probably isnt interested in bettering you personally.
he keeps making up excuses, but the report says he fucked the whole thing up.
Sure people get scared, sure they fuck up, by he just denies it and says he was in the right all the damn time.
He's never owned up to the fact that he got those guys killed. Probably in emotional denial, but he acts hard as fuck and rages when anyone brings it up and points that he's in the right.
>but the report says he fucked the whole thing up
wow this story has fell victim to chinese whispers on /k/
The AAR is freely available on the internet should anyone care to actually read it, and no, it doesnt say he fucked the whole thing up. It questions his actions, but specifically beyond a doubt it states the initial burst of fire that hit yeagers vehicle was the one that caused the fatal wounding on the occupants.
So while yeager is dumb for putting the car in neutral and forgetting about it, even if he had "gotten off the x" the men inside were still fucked.
I dont like yeager because of his attitude and general persona which screams "im a tuff guy pls believe me!!" but most of the blame for that fateful day should lie on the shoulders of the team leader, Al johnson, such as it is his responsibility, and some of his calls prior to the event were highly questionable, including bringing the convoy to a halt on route irish, just after you've blown your cover by stepping out and firing on civilian vehicles.
The most damning thing Yeager did to be honest, was running for cover instead of first checking that his teammates weren't fucked.
please tell me how would the guys behind yeager would've left the area if there was the car in the way, or the vehicle in front of yeager, if they left, wouldn't that make them huge assholes?
The AAR report is also why he's blacklisted from the whole PMC scene.
>The most damning thing Yeager did to be honest, was running for cover instead of first checking that his teammates weren't fucked.
And even then, if I may weigh in, during CLS class, you're taught to only check up on dudes after the fighting has stopped. Some shit about the best med care you can give is to eliminate the initial threat. Sure, common sense matters, like if you can drag that dude to cover real quick, do so, but mostly we are told to keep fighting. The worst thing I saw in that video is that nobody called out their three Ds. Yeager might have not been shooting the wrong way the whole time if someone told him where the enemy was, since he clearly couldn't see them.
what are you talking about, do you need me to link you to the video or something?
Yeagers car was parked off to the right of the road, it was not blocking any of the other vehicles in the convoy.
The AAR report is not why hes blacklisted. He's blacklisted because the perception of him in the community is one of cowardice and the private military world is actually very small. I dare say Al Johnson also did some CYA talk post incident, since as TL all the calls made fall squarely on his shoulders in responsibility.
Again, I don't care whether he is or isnt a coward, but lets be clear here: the AAR specifically states that the initial burst of fire caused the fatal wounding. Ergo even if buck angel hadn't stupidly put the vehicle in neutral, the men in his car wouldve been dead anyway.
>but people need to stop getting their dick hard looking at credentials
This is exactly what led Cory (of Cory and Erika fame) to lie about his credentials -- when people demand military experience from trainers, a small percentage of trainers will fake military experience.
You'll notice he draws explicit lines on what you can practice using airsoft and what you can't -- for instance you can practice shooting over a vehicle, and if you mess up and don't get the height-over-bore correct, then you don't put a 5.56 round through a piece of steel 2 feet from your head.
its not small, padding CVs or outright lying about experience is rampant - not just in the firearms community specifically - but in the self defense industry as a whole.
The sad thing is some instructors making the biggest money out of it have the most faked resumes.
firearms culture has reached this weird precipice, probably as a combination of exaggerated tales of valor and hollywood movies, that people dont respect someone unless theyve been in 300000 firefights and killed people with a knife while backflipping down a rope.
Obviously im exaggerating, but you get what Im driving at.
While I'm at it some of the skills people demand to know are just ridiculous. Like why are dropping serious money on a class for knowledge you are NEVER going to use? Why do you need to know how to do a 4 man wall flood in cqb? When the fuck are you as a civilian going to be using breaching charges and dynamic entry on a house?
I mean if this is a hobby for you, thats fine, its your money. But dont tell people you're learning how to defend yourself when really you want to play operator without having to go through the commitment thats required to do it for real.
>While I'm at it some of the skills people demand to know are just ridiculous. Like why are dropping serious money on a class for knowledge you are NEVER going to use? Why do you need to know how to do a 4 man wall flood in cqb? When the fuck are you as a civilian going to be using breaching charges and dynamic entry on a house?
To be fair, I thought MOUT was cool as fuck in basic. I take it as civilians wanting to learn a modern martial art. I mean, plenty of people take classes on archery and sword fighting, but never is it any more than a hobby. Lots of nobles did that back in the day too, knowing that they would most likely never have to strike someone with a sword. I guess as long as these people don't go full retard, no harm is done. You should probably learn how to work with your significant other if you want proper home defense. Most of this, boringly, involves communication rather than high-speed operating.
While im ranting i also hat the hideously fat people who drop serious money on defensive pistols and carbine courses et al, but can't be bothered to invest 30 minutes a day into a fucking jog. Like really you fat fuck, you're worried about violent confrontation but dont think it would be a good idea to take care of the violent confrontation your lungs are having if you have to sprint more than 20 meters.
Well, a lot of the problem is the consumer side not understanding the difference between "shooting instruction and fundamentals" and "advanced combat shooting instruction".
And the fact that you really need a solid, methodical, thorough grounding in the former before moving onto the latter.
For finding a qualified shooting fundamentals instructor, they absolutely don't need to be a certified operator. They just need to know their shit and be able to explain it. Obviously if you want to shoot long range you find somebody deep into ballistics and shit, or if you want to learn the fundamentals of a pistol, you go to a pistol expert. Most of what these people end up teaching is the unsexy, unHollywood side of nudging your grip a few millimeters, or explaining how bullet drop works or whatever.
For a "combat shooting" instructor, I absolutely want somebody who not only has been in combat, but who has used the techniques they are teaching me in combat. The last part I find to be absolutely essential; nothing would grind my gears in the Army than watching a non-deployed NCO act oper8tor and drill younger soldiers with a bunch of showoff techniques that don't work in the real world. If I am being taught techniques intended to be used under duress, then I want the person teaching me to know they work under duress. That doesn't require the teacher to be elite Tier-0, just experienced and able to articulate competently.
Of course, the second kind of training is only useful if you have the first kind. The high speed civilian carbine courses seem to be a huge waste for most civilians who think they can learn to be a Ninja after a one day course; that same kind of course is in a different context for military folk who take it because they are already drilled with the basics, and the kind of military who get those courses get a lot more than 1 day to try them out.
Most people would be better served with a shooting fundamental refresher than a tactical course.
Oh, dude yeah. That's my one pet peeve. I got asked by a buddy of mine once what gun or gear was like essential and shit. I told him to get a set of dumbbells and running shoes, without being a jerk about it of course. People don't get that the biggest part of being combat ready is to be fit. The gear and weapon matters very little compared to that.
Holy fuck this.
>Fumbling draw/sighting up
>No idea how to clear malfunctions
>Thinking their ready to blow past these fundamentals and get deep into tactics because they bullseye empty cans innawoods at 10 yards
I have a similar story of a friend who told me all about how hes going to be in SF, just you wait, i got the eye of the tiger etc (ok not that last one, but that was the general attitude).
I bluntly told him, dude you dont display the willpower in your daily life now to do some basic shit like lose weight how the fuck are you going to find the willpower to go through mental and physical torture?
> hurr durr its not about fitness its about mental strength
I just gave up after that point. Too many of my retarded friends dont seem to think there might be a connection between people who bust their souls working every day and having mental willpower.
Nah, keep going dude. The "gun community" is plagued by fat fucks who talk big and think that if they wear 5.11 pants they'll look like CAG.
Seriously, it seems like the majority of people who talk about prepping or "Revolution 2.0" are fat fucks. Every time fitness conversation sneaks into a SHTF thread around here, you see a wall of fatties arise to defend their fatness.
>I'm bearmode bruh.
>Pfff, I have the perfect plan, I won't need to run.
>I've got a sniper rifle with 500000x zoom. I'll shoot everything that moves within 20 miles.
>OMG STOP POSTING YOU TRYHARD! (after they post a loadout and pictures and beg to be rated and critiqued.)
You know what, this is fattie specific, but "loadout" picture threads in general where people layout all their gear and go autistic over it. It strikes me as childish and wannabee when people are very seriously discussing their "loadouts". It's all 'form over function' and discussions about what camo patterns go together best teehee.
Well yeah, I suppose i shouldnt be surprised given how high obesity is in general, but the huge amount of cognitive dissonance and just general lack of common sense in self defense in general just pisses me off.
> hurr durr i keep a plate carrier and 10 weapons near my bed but invest in a simple security system? thats for pussies
> hurr durr it takes me 30 minutes to cover a mile but i really need to know how to do a spechuul forces center peel
> hurr durr guys should i get a crye airframe or a mich? what do you mean im never going to use it?? Im preparing for all eventualities!! Im the sheepdog that protects you from the wolves!!
You forgot my favorite, which are the "informed" responses to the questions.
>Well, so far in my experience the Air Frame in Pencott Green camo is durable and lowers my tactical profile.
Durable for what? Setting on the ground to take pictures of it for /k/?
Plate carrier threads are fucking packed with this very authoritative attitude about gear and usage which is based on fucking nothing.
Whatever, motivated for tomorrow's workout now.
People having "home defense" load outs that look like three day patrol loadouts.
I always imagine those people taking 20 minutes to don all their fucking gear, and then getting interrupted as they fumble around in the dark.
I always feel like even when nutn has a good point, he doesn't really know how to make it. When he says something, it's like he wants to both complete his sentence and keep on with the same sentence. I had a professor like that who would say something, then pause and continue with the same statement rephrased.
Today we're going to be doing x activity, so i'll get some boxes out so you can do x which we're doing today and will require boxes that I'm going to grab in a minute.
I think if Nutn wrote up a script or something for his voice overs and bench reviews he'd be easier to sit through and his information would be easier to judge as good or bad, as nobody would be falling asleep.
>You can take the most experienced shit hot opr8r delta ksk parachute knife wielding commando and it wont mean shit if he can't effectively communicate concepts to you and you specifically.
Most important thing when looking for an instructor is that they can instruct. Ability to present information in an easily understood way > super l33t operatur resume.
But most people just window shop when it comes to instructors anyway. And there's no certification or past job that proves you're an effective teacher.
>And there's no certification or past job that proves you're an effective teacher.
What about, like, being a teacher? Hickok and Reid Henrichs are incredibly engaging and articulate
This is how I view most of these instructors, regardless of their bona fides.
I admit I would have loved to have attended a Louis Awerbuck course or five...won't ever get that chance now.
While I appreciate your rant and agree with it, I blew out my knee in the Muhreens and don't have the ability to go to pools for pt, I also don't spend dosh on tactical courses that won't benefit me in my state. Not all of us fat fucks are lazy, some of us just can't operate anymore
and then he made a video not long ago saying the mistakes he made and how to improve apon what he did wrong and right. not just saying this fire fight makes him better and smarter like yeager
>I admit I would have loved to have attended a Louis Awerbuck course or five...won't ever get that chance now.
I know that feel bro
Louis seemed like the best of both worlds. Real world experience from the bush war, coupled with a sharp analyzing no-nonsense mind.
Whose going to replace him? Buck angel? I shudder.
>His ERM after action, and video are now the gold standard in "Not what to do" in pretty much every high risk PSD school on the planet.
>Completely blacklisted from contracting.
He should have learned how to drive stick before driving on the most dangerous road on the planet.
So everyone measures dicks when it comes to pistol calibers all the time, but...
Here we have someone operating in th field with a .22lr.
Does this completely blow the "caliber matters" argument out of the water?
Stop astro turfing /k/ buck angel.
Yeager has a special place for hate in me because he is the anti-haley.
Go to his page and watch "why I can't teach you" and now go to haley's and watch him talk about making thinkers before shooters.
Yeager is a fraud and fills the niche in the industry for "entertrainment" for a bunch of fat guys to wear multicam on the weekend, shoot 2000 rounds with little to no accountability for hits, then collect a certificate patting everyone on the back saying "we operator now".
This is before his route Irish fuck up.
Before friending a stolen valor fag and a felon.
Before saying he'll shoot anyone who will take his guns away, gets his guns taken away, apologizes to get them back.
Before sticking photographers in between targets at a beginner pistol course.
If you give Yeager money to continue to be a blight on the gun community (60 minutes interview) you are not part of the problem in the gun training community.
You ARE the problem.
Also, tactical response is neither state department or DoD certified and buck angel HAS been caught lying claiming to be a member of the national law enforcement trainers organization.
>I'm the best weapons instructor in the world
That's the opening line to his own YouTube add.
I wouldn't attend a carbine course with him as a fellow student, much less a payer instructor.
He has demonstrated, repeatedly and unapologetically, that nothing he says that hasn't been lifted from somebody else is worth listening to.
>doesn't train people to be elite operators
>high risk civilian contractors course covering cqb and hostage rescue
Get fucked and at least be more selective over the dick you put in your mouth.
It depends on the mission requirements. If your engagement ranges are going to be inside 600m, wouldn't you rather carry a lighter weapon and more ammunition for the same weight?
Yes, of course, but I'd feel that is a lower priority below mission efficacy.
Say I was stationed up top on a rooftop in fallujah, in a supporting role as overwatch. In such a parameter, I'd think .308 would be ideal because mobility isn't an issue.
I'm still not entirely sold on 5.56 maintaining sufficient terminal ballistics out to 500-600 meters. I'm sure it wounds and the wounds would lead to death eventually but is it sufficient in neutralizing threats? I'd feel less confident in ~70-80 grain BTHPs than 168 grain BTHP.
As they shouldn't.
>muh tactical pieroette after shooting putting my back to an identified threat
>muh electric slide 2 feet to the right is gonna save me
>zero mag retention, every reload is a TAC reload
>single point slings
>entire class dumping all ammo in the open with no ID on targets nor movement to cover or engage, jame's instruction? "Keep shooting"
What non of you realise is that without going through basic, or boot all of this is useless. Basic exists to break you down and to rebuild you to respond to commands without really thinking about it. As a civilian going through these course you lack this and will still think, rather than 'do'.
Wanna operate? Want to shoot at funny brown people? Wanna do this all for free? Join the fucking army you collective bunch of wannabe shit heads.
Mobility isn't important until it is, then it becomes the most important. In an urban environment, you will never be completely static for the duration of the fight. And even if you were, you will never be engaging at ranges where a larger cailber's effectiveness drawfs the 5.56. Not to mention compatibility of ammo and magazines with friendly forces.
Shot placement is the deciding factor with almost any caliber within its effective range. You shoot someone in the chest with a 70gr frangible projectile, they're not going to be combat effective. With 5.56, you'll have faster followup shots to make up for poor shot placement.
>thinks being mil makes you good at guns n stuff
The military gives zero fucks how well the rifleman handles his weapon individually or how accurate they are since they exist to support and provide movement for gpmg and crew weapons/artillery and CAS.
Even 11b leg unit cqb is based more around communication and not shooting your buddy than slicing pie and transitioning.
If you want to be good at handling or manipulating weapons you have to be able to filter out the "we've done it this way for 10 years" bullshit.
Watch Ron Avery take down the super operator pistol draw when he was teaching Cory of RT how to not be retarded.
Pretty sure Costa did. Why not? The lights he was using are really light (I think it was a pair of Surefire E2s), and if you're talking combat and not just home defense, there is a decent chance that you might run out of batteries in one light during a mission, or one of your lights may get hit.
Remarkably similar to my build
>anti walk pins
>on a semi
I will never understand this.
A cookie to any oldfag who can guess who these rifles belonged to.
Unfortunately the AR15 market is plagued by purchases based on what's trending, and not what's practical.
I say this as someone who loves the rifle.
>All these DD lite rails
Man I've seen you posting that build for like... 5 years? I remember you posting your original plans and pathsofglory helping you pick ot a scope. Is she done or are you going to keep at it?
I think this is the last SPR I have.
Back when quad rails were the cutting edge, the DD Lite was the rail by which all others were measured.
The market was simpler back then.
Wow, a fellow oldfag. Shes prettymuch done. Im going to throw a vortex viper 2.5-10x on it, swap the battlecomp compensator onto my carbine build, put a silencerco trifecta and saker on it, and change out the stock grip. Thats about it. Its an amazing rifle. That WOA 1/7 twist barrel is scary accurate with 77gr MK262. I consistently get first round hits on 500 yard silhouettes with it.
>You shoot someone in the chest with a 70gr frangible projectile, they're not going to be combat effective.
I feel like this makes sense but I'm still reluctant, (maybe irrationally so in that it's not founded on anything specifically), and skeptical in the 5.56 round at long-ish ranges. I've seen what wind drift does to the lighter rounds mid flight, and I'd just personally feel more comfortable with a larger cal round if the targets were literally shooting back at me.
You've made a good argument though and you've got me interested in 5.56 SPRs. I wish I had an extra few grand lying around to give them a try because I'm really interested to see first hand how far someone can push those that caliber on the right platform.
Really? 855 is such a lousy round. What kind of a weapons platform was he shooting?
you guys do know that the Mk 12 Mod 0 is a very specific build, including a unique barrel (profile, twist, length, et c), usually an A1 lower, a KAC trigger, and a host of other specific options. a scoped AR is not an SPR.
You're going to get cut to shreds when you come up a professional fighting force. You miss the point. You and the rest pf the neck beards lack the psychological aspect. It isnt about weapons drill and how to 'tactically' hold a gun, its all about seeing another human pointing a gun at you with the obvious intent to kill.
You'll lock up and think. Dead.
They arent meant to be sniper rifles. Is 308 an all around better cartridge? Absolutely. But you can carry much more 5.56. Its meant to be very accurate suppressive fire at specific targets. If an enemy is taking CONSTANT pop pop pop accurate fire they arent going to dare stick their heads up. Especially after the first guy gets brained. They fill the void between standard issue rifles and DMRs. Yes wind drift is a issue, , it can be minimized by 70/77gr projectiles, but again, they arent meant to be sniper rifles. Close enough is usually good enough in a real combat situation.
>telling mil how mil will react
PLENTY of hard charging knuckle draggers get vapor lock when bullets start flying.
Going through boot gives you one advantage.
You know how to lace your boots to pass a uniform inspection.
No shit sherlock.
Also, scoped ARs can be SPRs. MK12s look really cool and are proprietary, but honestly civilians can build better rifles than the military can purchase. SPRs and MK12 mod1/2 are not mutually exclusive
Warfare is suited for only those prepared to die, which is obviously not a bunch of computer science majors and anime fur fags—which is precisely why I've no intention of enlisting. I just enjoy shooting and have a voyeuristic intrigue in warporn and Operating.
I'm not delusional enough to think I'm an operator myself or I'd ever amount to one just because I have some crye gear, a plate carrier and some tacticool shit slapped on my rifle.
I won't argue that the Mk12 is a specific design, but the SPR concept has been adopted to imply a longer barreled, accuracy oriented AR platform with medium-long magnification optics using a heavier grain projectile for engagements out to at least 500-600m.
It's not even that expensive either.
The critical components to a sub-moa AR are the barrel and ammunition. If one were inclined to handload, it's very feasible to built a sub-moa AR for under $1k.
Lacing boots, pressing uniforms and marching and formation has its purpose. It teaches. Its all about reactions and the ability to respond to commands. You don't seem to grasp this. A civilian does not have the state pf mind a drilled soldier posse's. Your saying soldiers lock up, sure first time beyo d the wire. But the differences between you and the mil is they put themselves in contact with the enemy, were ad you stayed home and took 'tactical' classes. One gos to harm and fights, you do not. Coward.
No, fuck you. You fucks over look the aspect, the psychological aspect. You do t just try you mother fucker. I can you fucking try hards will never fire a shot in anger and will forever be range queens.
Fuck you aspies take it all for granted friend die and never come back in reality. Fuck you.
>don't seem to grasp this
I've grasped it plenty.
It was designed to teach people who have no business being given responsibility how to do something verbatim with no original thought or mental input.
Please sir, tell me how much I learned folding my skivies prepared me for Helmand.
Thi...I don't...what? This has devolved into what I can charitably assume are two milfage flinging shit at each other.
Look, either you prove your damn credentialed dicks for all the thread to see or your just two Jace Strykers yelling at each other.
Major difference between contractors and mercenaries is that mercenaries are just guns for hire that go to the highest bidder. We like to think our PMCs have a little more integrity and loyalty than that
Here's one thing you should know.
The most operator operator who could ever operate operationally in operations could at this moment be a plumber who has never touched a gun.
The military is not the end all be all of trained violence.
No no and no. The indoctrination in basic is designed to produce obedience among the lowest echelon of soldiers. Anyone intending to be a professional soldier could just as well skip basic because it doesn't teach you at all how to think, which is all operating really is.
Chain of command is important, but any intelligent and emotionally mature person (already pre-requisites for professional operator), will already understand and believe in the chain of command, without ever needing to sit through weeks of briefings on how-not-to-sexually-abuse and how-to-milk-the-government-for-benefits-training.
TLDR: Basic is shit, any true operator could just as well skip it.
>Chain of command is important, but any intelligent and emotionally mature person (already pre-requisites for professional operator), will already understand and believe in the chain of command
^this. Boot camp is not about turning you into a war machine, all it does is to make sure those who are either out of line or low confidence to grow out of it. It has little to do with actual fighting. People who are already mature would go through just fine.
Protip: Don't get stuck in Boot mode, you sound smart to your DI/DS but retarded to everyone else
To be fair, that's a huge advantage. The one thing basic did for me is that I'm more willing to do really retarded things just because they tell me so and to do it with a sense of urgency. I think the numbing effect is a good thing, because you don't have the time to think how much it sucks that you are doing this retarded activity until you are already doing it and it's too late. It also greases the wheels of interpersonal relationships. I can get along with almost any group of people now, simply because the lack of privacy makes you more aware that basically most people are great people, and if you work with them, you're more willing to suck shit through a straw together. I was a social retard before basic, and I still am, but at least I'm a social retard that tries really hard at this. Do I think civilians can't be operator? Probably not. I mean, I'm not operator, and the guys that are do that shit every day. Being operator is more about just shooting. It's about having the motivation to do everything at a high level of proficiency. Rucking, dealing with fatigue and stress, making sure that your details are in order no matter the circumstance, and that you properly communicate with your subordinates as well as your superiors, those things are more important to operating than shooting really well or reloading in a split second. Being in a close-knit group is more beneficial than simply having a group that shoots well. Learning your quirks, the limitations of those around you and your own, that is what makes the machine run smoother. I don't think civilians lack the capability to be operator. I just think they lack the time to train day in and day out. The mentality is a must, but if a civilian really had that mentality they wouldn't be a civilian for long.
>Not to mention compatibility of ammo and magazines with friendly forces.
IIRC they were constantly having more ammo brought in by helicopter. Needing two types of ammo would make logistics quite a bit more complicated. Yeah it might me less effective ammo, but it's better than not HAVING ammo.
This is the poison of gun/self defense boards in general.
Most of the population of the world is not military and yet only military tactics are commonly discussed. You can't call in air support, armour or more guys in your daily life, so why bother learning/discussing that shit. Why bother with plates and war belts when you can't wear that shit around every day? You fucks that think the switch is going to flip and you'll have time to go to your car or home and suit up because Delta wants you to operate with them all of a sudden are hopelessly retarded.
>Being operator is more about just shooting. It's about having the motivation to do everything at a high level of proficiency.
>The mentality is a must, but if a civilian really had that mentality they wouldn't be a civilian for long.
They would if they're smart. The term for a motivated person who does things well is "successful." There are a lot of those people. They don't all kick in doors and kill people for a living. Most don't.
And because the market if for "infantry tactics without support (aka the thing that makes infantry effective)" no one bothers developing civilian tactics. Efficient weapons manipulation is the best you can find.
Being successful doesn't make you operator, and you won't be very successful if you spend all your time and money learning how to shoot fuckers in the face, unless it's what you do for a living.
>doesn't care for the timer
Between the timer and shot placement, Haley is PUSHING you to shoot faster and better.
None of that, "does it feel faster" bullshit, the motherfucker looks you over and says "you shot 1/4 second faster but missed 2/8 let's slow it down some".
Compared to just lining up everyone and having them dump 500 rounds at a time into their targets.
My point is being "operator" requires the same type of person that could be successful outside the .mil. Hence why I disagree with the assessment that motivated people would all quit being civilians.
Valid point. I keep expecting someplace like Cali to start regulating training any day now.
He also notes that a timer is the best way to add stress in a range training environment.
>Hence why I disagree with the assessment that motivated people would all quit being civilians.
Ah, dude that wasn't my point. I meant, motivated to learn combat shit and be operator.
I don't own an AR yet, but I like how anti-walk pins look. I'll get a set when I build one. Besides, it's also cheap insurance for a malfunction that while extraordinarily unlikely, would really fuck up your day if it actually happened when you needed to rely on the rifle to save your life.
>cheap insurance for a malfunction that while extraordinarily unlikely, would really fuck up your day if it actually happened when you needed to rely on the rifle to save your life.
You're going to make many poor decisions in your life.
>malfunction that while extraordinarily unlikely
Fucking impossible. Those things have to be basically hammered in there. You will never, ever, ever, ever ever, have that happen to you even on something like a service M4. You just cannot shoot enough for that to happen.
>TFW reasonable Yeager discussion in thread.
Way to go, /k/
I see. Your argument boils down to inherent talent or potential. Is that correct?
I'm going to assume you do not mean a person who has never touched a gun before is, at that moment, a better "operator". I can only reasonably assume you mean that person with good potential, if given the proper training, could be a better "operator" than most military, right?
I stand by experience on this one: you can have an aptitude for something but you're not good at it until you've done it again and again and again.
He's a great shooter, but shooting targets does not translate to combat very well. It's easy to hit paper and steel fast. It's a whole different beast trying to kill an intelligent target that's trying to kill you right back.
Basic doesn't make you jack shit in a gunfight. I know a ton of soldiers who would get btfo in a rifle fight. I also know quite a few pogs who are hard as fuck and could all but shoot their way out of normandy.
>shooting targets does not translate to combat very well
Yeah you can totally win a gunfight without hitting a target and in no would the ability to consistent hit targets that fast create confidence in ones abilities or otherwise prove to be of use.
Do the .mil guys hate it that bad when a civvie is a better shooter?