communism will spring from capitalism. If you read the communist manifesto you'll see the awe and admiration for certain aspects capitalism. Communism absolutely needs capitalism at its peak of productivity. Communism is capitalism with robots to serve mankind.
I won't bust my ass for the others, I just want stuff for myself. If I am smarter/stronger (personally I am not) I find it more appealing to exploit the weaker for my personal needs and gains. There is no god so there is no hell, nobody's gonna punish me in my life nor I have to fear some superior entity.
communism won't come from Heaven you need to subjugate other classes, élites and avant-gardes with their own purposes beliefs and strenght. There is no way workers/peasants can do it alone without a strong party leadership and a state with repressive organs to keep engineers, doctors, philosophers, judges, tycoons, shopkeepers, lumpenproletariat in check with violence. After years of committed work to eradicate the "bourgeoise elements" and kulturkampf you'll eventually reach a classless stateless society. How? I don't know. But you won't reach it without long years of repression and re education.
the good old communist party was dragged in by the radical party in the so called "fight for divorce". The promoters were Socialists and Radicals. And communists used to be quite homophobic too. No radical chics in factories.
>>55050262 Thats awfully selfish for a communist but you could just stop being one for the sake of your life. I used to be a communist, but I dropped it once I stopped being so angry with the world. I don't think myself stupid, I just don't have that drive anymore.
that was way before my time. My thoughts on the Red Brigades is the same of your average italian communist party follower: people who greatly contributed to the demise of the Compromesso Storico with the christian democracy. They have been easily destroyed once they dared to kill a communist worker.
I am talking about italian communists back in the time. And soviet communists as much as i know... Blaming the Italian Communist Party for leftie things like divorce, abort and mass immigration is just wrong. At least in Italy.
>>55049879 >Communism is capitalism with robots to serve mankind.
Well this is kinda interesting. I'm not a commie, although I was always concerned about the future of labour in case capitalism would prevail. Would all the masses be left to starve after the complete mechanisation? It doesn't look good.
good for you. I am not going to argue with you why you can do it in any european country, you can read it in any history book. My question is: what's the relation between communism and people living decent lives in any european country and what's your definition of decent and why you think your definition of decent is universal and we all de facto agree with you.
>>55050583 here in germany homosexuality was legalized under communist rule, but it was seen as a degenerate western lifestyle and the commies tried to ban it from public. they thought homosexuality would not exist in the communist (=perfect) socitey, everyone should be the same
>>55050787 The way the singularity goes will be determined by the material conditions at the time. Do you really think the have-nots will be allowed the fruits of the singularity out of the kindness of the bourgeoisies heart?
And also you use the resources of other person. You just need good laws to prevent to be overexplored. THE poverty in third world countries is due to other things, like wars and slavery, and not capitalism
I do agree like your average libertarian anon to this fairy tale and that's why I am about to kill myself. Just waiting for the material condition to become the correct ones is the suicide of communism. The smartest communists of XX century at least tried to build a ladder to Heaven because if you don't move your ass, since there is no god nor hell nor heaven there are also no material conditions to become the correct ones, like Chile's army, Argentina's death flights, the destruction of Tudeh in Iran and the USA financed freedom fighters in pro Soviet democratic socialist republic of Afghanistan have demonstrated.
>>55050874 I do not believe that the contradictions in capitalism will cause it's end. Only revolution will end it. To continue your metaphor capitalism should be euthanised. Technological disruption can be fully subsumed into capitalist reproduction
they will try to sell it to you, thats capitalism just look at cars, indutrial equipment or computers, back in the day only the bourgs had them, now you can buy a reliable econobox or build a computer for pennies
>>55050940 There's an Israeli poster that subscribes to Technological Utopianism. I think that it's possibility and would be nice, but it's too far ahead so you're basically sitting around with your thumb up your arse until then.
>>55050954 if you want to implement fully automated luxury communism you need capitalism to pave the way for it, thats Marx
>since there is no god nor hell nor heaven there are also no material conditions to become the correct ones yes there are, we need machines that replace labour, thats literally all it is, there is no soviets or socialist state
thats why you need to create the basis for sustainable automated industry and then just let capitalism die just like mercantilism and colonialism did
>>55051055 Anarchists are pretty delusional, but I can't blame them for wanting that type of society. Btw almost half of them don't really know what anarchy is and just want to destroy and burn things in manifas
of course you need "capitalism to pave the way" and i think i've made it already clear since the start of the thread. However capitalism won't just fade away and just waiting for its demise is plain wrong. Of course nobody still explained to me why after capitalism communism will just spring out instead of something horrible using technology to subjugate humanity for its own purposes. And as I have already explained I would do it too if I were smart/strong enough.
>>55050969 what is your definition of the revolution? a revolution to change the ruler is not a paradigm shift, it doesnt change the modes of production
this is what happened in the USSR, it was state capitalism, where the burocrats where the rulers over the soviet people, just like the monarch was the ruler of the peasants
they couldn't eliminate explotation, just change the leadership, every "revolution" so far has been the same, the american and mexican war of independance and their civil wars, the french revolution ended with napoleon as the ruler aswell, the same happened in spain, the same happened in yugoslavia and china and so on
you need to change the system from within by eliminating work you are eliminating the explotation and alienation, thats the revolution
>>55051028 you must need to understand that capitalism does not equal markets think about this, until we manage to create a machine that will be able to do every type of labour including fixing and upgrading itself we will have to work, capitalism has proved to be a more effective tool for this than XX century socialism
I have a dream. I'm just living to see another brutal communist dictatorship to make abortion illegal in Romania. I want to see huge romanian state controlled orphanages full of unwanted romanian children and an iron curtain keeping them away from the wealthy capitalist West. And what's more I want to see rich spoiled italian brats fighting to import your shitty system in Italy until they turn 25 and start working at their father's company, driving their BMWs. I want to see the eyes of those little romanian orphans on television and feel indignant at the lack of equality in the world, from my 150 square meters house with garden.
>>55051358 Replacing labour with machines will not benefit labour provided we are still talking within capitalism. You seem to assume that somewhere along the line capital just relinquish ownership and control of these machines for no reason. If you want machines to benefit workers, the workers must own and control the machines
>>55051388 It's not what commies want, it's not what normal people want, it's not what capitalists want. It's commie-like in the way that it dictates what should be done, it tries to plan and centralize shit. It's the bureaucratic purgatory that's typical of communist countries but without any of the (minimal) advantages. Developed countries suffer and shitholes profit off of it, yet most of the time those profits are not reinvested but stolen by retarded niggers like in Romania. The attempts to civilize the East fail 9/10 times.
>>55051466 Thank God that will never happen again unless it's pushed onto us, same like the first time. Commie melancholics are slowly dying off, and with each gravestone we move forward. The old and stupid are pruned despite the best efforts of those who would maintain the system. It's the only thing that gives me hope for this country, but to be honest I'm not going to trust it, I'm still going to move the fuck away and watch from a safe distance.
>>55051158 >However capitalism won't just fade away yes it will, it will fade away like tribalism, totalitarian monarchism, merkantilism, colonialism and other past modes of production did
>instead of something horrible using technology to subjugate humanity for its own purposes. it wont, I dont want to sound like a maoist but where capitalism is explotin the workers at its maximum, the 3rd world living conditions are becoming better
there will be a point where you will simply run out of people to exploit because countries will be developed to a certain level where explotation like today will be impossible, the market itself will need itself in order to exist.
capitalists need to sell their products so they need customers, and they simply can't keep selling the same shit because countries are becoming more developed, they would want to, but customers want the newest or biggest TV or whatever
they will simply be too developed in order stay subjugated, not in the physical subjugation, but on the idea that they will simply not allow the capitalists to treat them as second class customers, otherwise their profits will shrink and someone will replace them
you can see this happened in the middle east with the introduction of mobile phones and internet, or in Latam where people dont want shitty cars, clothes or motorcycles
its just like colonial powers who run out of land to exploit capitalism will run out of people to exploit
this is why this whole anarcho capitalism/right-libetarianism could work in order to build communism
>>55051699 Gonna finish my studies, earn as much dosh as I can and start my own business, ideally. Right now I'm thinking Australia/NZ but this may possibly change. Maybe one of the Asian Tigers if they keep it up. We'll have to see, frater, the future is unpredictable and the multitude of variables involve makes it literally impossible for the human mind to comprehend beyond the most basic details.
At one time I was thinking Italy, since I got a job offer from a company there. We're very similar to them, but every bad part is several orders of magnitude worse. Plus the language is easy for me to learn, too.
>>55051358 There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight
I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no!
>>55051553 >If you want machines to benefit workers, the workers must own and control the machines but you will own the machine that is capable of replacing all labour at the moment the capitalist sell it to you
I am not talking about a simple barista robot or anything as simple as that, but when the capitalist creates a machine, capable of working with other machines in order to serve us in every aspect,
you might be thinking that I am talking about something like robotina from the jetsons, no, something even bigger, even smarter than us that understands what exactly do we need and knows exactly how to do
>>55051474 only viable option at this point imo тbh faм
XX century socialism proved itself to be a failure
>>55051787 That is not how capitalism works, Pedro. You make it sound like the process you just described is a sort of mortal error of it, it's weak point, but really, it's just the natural process that results from it. People become empowered and everything improves slowly. Look at Europe - things just get automated and the lower classes move to the middle, and even the lowest will live in conditions much better than the middle class of most shit countries. There was this study that in the US, most poor families own a TV and a microwave, and half of them had a car. My family and I didn't have a car for most of my life despite us being middle-class.
What you just described is childish, really. You imagine capitalism is out to get you, as if it's pure evil.
>>55051925 Thanks familia. I don't hate this country, but I do not trust it to keep itself together. Our history is one of overcoming danger, of fighting till the very last moment, but now after the revolution it seems people have become complacent and some beg for the chains that once restrained them. It's sad, really.
>>55051990 >Next time don't fight for your rights >Next time don't fight for your people >Next time accept subjugation >Next time bow your head down like a dog >Next time lick the boot that kicks you
How laughable, to hear this coming from a burger. No wonder your country is going down the shitter.
>>55052165 I do not want a repeat of 20th century communism, god no. But I also do not think that we will ever have the ability to buy power away from the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie are not stupid, they will not give their power away even if in the short term it would be profitable to do so. No matter how high the tech goes it doesn't matter, it will still be a tool weirded by them against us
>>55052131 wat, That's exactly how capitalism work, precisely because capitalism is not pure evil is why its a better tool to achieve communism than socialism, what makes capitalism work is the free market, not work alienation, explotation, or class struggle the problem is you are thinking markets are inherent to capitalism only
What you just described is exactly how capitalism, not markets,is failing itself, people in other areas of the world have an easier acces to certain commodities. but this is not really a problem as time goes by because most of these countries are becoming developed
There will be a point in history where a certain type of commodity will make capitalism obsolete, you wont need to buy clothes because a machine will do them for you, same with food, computer parts or whatever and only certain people will be able to afford it, but again, just like cars or computers they eventually became accesible for all
thats why its retarded to replace capitalism with soviet burocracy
>>55052729 I see, it seems I misunderstood. Well, that seems about right. It's unlikely for that to happen within our lifetimes, but maybe someday it could become real. Even so, I don't think the system that would emerge would be socialism, but something along the lines of what Marx described regarding free time (dicking around without specializing in one thing, such as anyone being able to hunt, anyone being able to try their hand at welding, sports and whatnot - which it true even today to a certain extent) with some form of basic sustenance provided by the government or some other authority.
What I always imagined was voluntary associations rather than states doing it, though.
>>55052782 I understand where you come from as I've read the theory where that position comes from. And I'd agree that it was true in the soviet style economies, they were good at playing catch up but never good at taking the lead. I disagree that competition is the mechanism of this though. And even there there is the Lange model of socialism that would rid off that excuse anyway
>>55052522 > buy power away from the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie are not stupid yeah and what the bourg do is to defend itself is create monopolies, cartels, copyright laws and other retarded bullshit to make the free market stagnate and keep it from progressing
this is why you have planned obsolescence and retarded product marketing, they want you to stay away from technology that will destroy capitalism from inside
we have to develop said technology if we want to reach the revolution
> them against us we will eventually become all bourg, you need to remeber that the definition of bourg is that they profit from the explotation of others, in this case machines
the class difference will simply stop existing, and so will the struggle between them
its pretty idealistic, but the future must be otherwise there will be no future at all
>>55052247 and you will, because mandating that we should all live in a commune because >muh feels is retarded
we will live in communes when the material conditions lead us to do such thing
>>55053092 Essentially your saying that technology will enable everyone to be bourgeois. I disagree, I think that Marx's category of surplus population is useful here. Instead of becoming bourgeois, the amount of surplus population will increase. These people will remain the have nots, just without jobs/income now. The fact that they're not being exploited in the production process doesn't mean they're not being excluded from the fruits of society. There is no technology that can destroy capitalism from the inside
>>55053232 >implying you can even make the AI in the first place assigning people jobs in fields they don't even like will for equal pay as everyone else only get you halfhearted results and no extra dedication.
>>55053278 I feel you m8 but you can already see that: -the surplus population and lumpenproles are, perhaps not disappearing, but changing, neetbux basic income and welfare are creating a new class, which is in a way profiting from the work of automation in factories
I understand that the ruling class could just make these benefits disappear, but not without massive protes
- the birth date in developed countries is decreasing
think about the following, currently the US relies on cheap labour from mexican immigrants to create their surplus population, but what is going to happen when Mexico becomes industrialized and its not profitable to cross the border? Are we going to get them from central america? central america is pretty small and again, what is going to happen when central america becomes developed?
its the same problem colonialism faced once every land had an owner
you could arguee that the bourg will try to keep the source of surplus population underdeveloped, but I feel it certainly has become harder to do so
>There is no technology that can destroy capitalism from the inside idk senpai, I certainly hope not
perhaps we will have to develop communal farms and program the robots in the case of a massive glitch or something, but such technology is so utopian is hard to think what could go wrong
imma go to sleep because its pretty lat, fun talking to you
>>55053785 Night. If this thread is still up this is my reply. Mexicans are already leaving the US in unprecedented numbers, and certain areas of the US are feeling it quite hard. If you think that a political movement of those on neetbux could achieve that, go ahead I give you the green light. Enjoy acchieving that though.
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