> If they attack, we shall fight to the end. If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression. But we haven’t got them, so we shall fight with what we’ve got.
inspiring and beautiful. this is why every country in latin america needs nukes.
not a commmie btw :)
You don't talk about fighting Panama. You are literally the only country in Latinmurrica that haven't fought for anything, not even your own independence.
You gave up on them too. Fuck, you should have gone total war against the US, you would probably earn the support of the whole SA, hell, even Chile sent their navy to Panamá.
You could've prevented.
There are no polls outside of America and Japan. But you can ask everyone from Europe or Latin America or Asia. They will tell you that the bombings were unjustified.
Meanwhile 14% of the Japanese and 56% of Americans think there was a justification.
Those cowards killed him without trial. Imagine the epic stuff he would have said at his trial.
"In preparation for Operation "Olympic," the invasion of southern Kyushu, various figures and organizations made casualty estimates based on the terrain, strength, and disposition of known Japanese forces. However, as reported Japanese strength in the Home Islands continued to climb and Japanese military performance increased, so too did the casualty estimates.In April 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff formally adopted a planning paper giving a range of possible casualties based on experience in both Europe and the Pacific. Given a troop list of 766,700 men and a 90-day campaign, the US Sixth Army could be expected to suffer between 514,072 casualties (including 134,556 dead and missing) under the "Pacific Experience" dead & missing and 7.45 total casualties/1,000 men/day) and 149,046 casualties (including 28,981 dead and missing) under the "European Experience" (0.42 dead & missing and 2.16 total casualties/1,000 men/day).This assessment included neither casualties suffered after the 90-day mark (US planners envisioned switching to the tactical defensive by D+120 nor personnel losses at sea from Japanese air attacks.In order to sustain the campaign on Kyushu, planners estimated a replacement stream of 100,000 men per month would be necessary, a figure achievable even after the partial demobilization following the defeat of Germany."
>But you can ask everyone from Europe or Latin America or Asia. They will tell you that the bombings were unjustified.
Sure thing, m8.
>56% of Americans think there was a justification.
So that only leaves about 136,400,000 Americans who don't think so?
Our president by that time was an idiot, but a nice kind of idiot, he considered that the money would help the development of the country. If he only knew.
>total war agains the US
Nigga thay would have literally destroyed us, Chile's army was a pack of arrow shooting indios by that time, hell, every army of SA was a joke back then.
"The US Sixth Army, the formation tasked with carrying out the major land fighting on Kyushu, estimated a figure of 394,859 casualties serious enough to be permanently removed from unit roll calls during the first 120 days on Kyushu, barely enough to avoid outstripping the planned replacement stream"
So, you've proven that 1 in 3 Americans on the street will theoretically tell you it was unjustified, yet you can't prove your assertion that it's widely condemned in the rest of the world.
Let's see. The bombings killed 80,000 people. The Japanese had fought to 95% casualty rates on ever Island. And we were about to invade their mainland. They were literally training little kids to fight with sharpened sticks. It would have been a catastrophic loss of human life for everyone involved. If you think the atomic bombs were worse then what would have happened during an invasion then you're literally retarded.
>japan attacks first with a surprise attack
hurr that's completely wrong america you should have just continued fire bombing the country until was nothing but ash,
maybe you shouldn't attack america if you don't want to be killed by america
>The Russian in Germany complaining of war conduct.
Truly ebin desu. Truly ebin.
It's not my fault that there are no polls outside of America and Japan you retard. Literally everyone I had a discussion about this issue was against the use of nuclear bombs. Everyone.
So if they didn't support the bomb then they must have supported the invasion that would have killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Americans? Interesting move to want more dead people.
You are mistaken, pretty sure the Chileans alone could've single handed the american navy, not to mention if they had the support of Brazil and Argentina. But we would never know if us from the east would enter the war anyway. And by all means, you shouldn't have given up without a fight.
Oh I know. And these bombings would have no doubt continued if the invasion happened. They fought to 100 percent casualty rates for some Islands in the pacific. Imagine the casualties if we invaded. Children charging soldiers with sharpened bamboo steaks. Firebombing campaigns. Easily a million dead combined.
Your posting style is obivous and you should up in the same Anti-American threads every time. Lol. The only person you're convincing is yourself Russo
>my anecdotal evidence is sufficient to convince me that everyone else feels the same way
If you lived in southern America your whole life too you'd probably think that everyone in the US hates Obama.
Btw, japs were worse than Americans. Look up unit 731.
Do you really think it would take an invasion to Japan capitulation? I'm not here to teach history, but you should know that the peace cliqué was already in power in Japan and were well in their way to convince the military. The bombs were just dickwaving, but you are so brainwashed that you believe what you want to.
When the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and already invaded the Manchuria. It was on August 9th, the morning before you dropped the bomb over Nagasaki, when the supreme military council of Japan started to discuss about their unconditional surrender. They knew it was over, they couldn't fight against the USSR and USA at the same time.
That's funny because we made several attempts to allow the Japs to enter negotiation channels but they refused. They never even tried to talk to us. Literally not at all. They tried using the Soviets as an intermediary to possibly open negotiation. We had literally fought right up to their doorstep. We took Okinawa and waited and they refused to talk.
Period. Not even open a channel. They tried to talk to the Soviets to possibly open a channel. So there we were sitting infront of Japan. Primed to invade. No other outer defenses left. Do or die as far as trying to surrender is concerned. We gave them a freaking ultimatum and they still refused to even open a diplomatic channel with us. Get over your circlejerk faggots.
I worked with two WW2 USMC vets years ago. Both of them were in outfits that were going in and here is what i remember them saying...One of thems' unit orders was take an occasional prisoner for intel but otherwise kill every Jap you see. The other's orders was was if it was taller than knee high, kill it.
Japan was NOT ready to surrender. They were even offered a chance to surrender after the first bombing, and they still said no because they didn't think America would drop a second. Then they did.
A great deal of historians accept the bombings as a necessary evil to prevent further deaths in the war.
You're only saying it's immoral because you are currently butthurt against America.
Japan was told to surrender or die in late July. They didn't respond, so the Allies assumed they were choosing to die.
Days later they bombed Hiroshima, and reoffered the Potsdam terms to Japan. Japan still refused to answer, so they bombed Nagasaki. THEN Japan surrendered. That's the timeline.
It's documented fact that Kantarō Suzuki gave the order to call America's bluff as to the existence of more than one bomb. Up until the very end Japan still believed that they had the Divine Wind, and so they wanted to keep fighting under the assumption that they'd eventually start winning.
Russia should give Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela nukes.
>trying to teach myself spanish
>learn about accents across different countries
>discover that Panama spanish just randomly doesn't pronounce certain letters of the word and is extremely slurred and difficult to understand
not cool man
>t. American revisionism
>Up until the very end Japan still believed that they had the Divine Wind
>mfw americans think everyone is retarded like them
pretty sure we don't need Russia to have nukes.
>THEN Japan surrendered
Because the Soviet Union declared war on Japan on day before the second nuclear bomb. As I said, the discussion about the surrender started a few hours before Nagasaki.
>started to discuss about their unconditional surrender
ea. Japan didn't have a chance in hell but they didn't sNot good enough.
It was written on the wall after the Battle of the Philippine Surrender. Amongst other things Iwo Jima and Okinawa happened at they still weren't going to give up.
B-29s literally reduced huge swaths of Japanese cities to the ground and they didn't surrender.
Allied battleships were right off their coast shelling industrial sites but they still held on.
Discussing means shit. Surrender or suffer
Do you have evidence that this discussion would, in fact, lead to unconditional surrender?
Do you have evidence that the decision-makers in the U.S. were aware that the bombing(s) was/were unnecessary?
>"needs additional citations for verification"
>in discussion pages, a guy told the USA said to they surrender by dropping flyers
American diplomacy experts, talk by dropping flyers and expect a telepatic answer.
You just proved our point, there was absolutery NO DIPLOMATIC TIES to Japan give a quick answer, so both the first and second bomb was dick waving.
You realize that's bullshit made up after the nukes right?
We lost 45,000 against the best of Japan. We weren't gonna lose a million against their starving masses armed with spears.
americans had no problem with evaporating 200k civilians overnight
they even celebrate it.
how is this a sane reaction at all? its like we live in bizarro world. how come these beasts proclaim themselves the moral compass of the world, its beyond me
Here's the Japanese FM himself talking about trying to negotiate with the Soviets.
We had no idea it even happened because the Soviets refused to even see the Japanese Ambassador. I hope you know enough about history to realize that we had already taken Okinawa and were waiting at their doorstep. So there you have it. We made an ultimatum as we waited outside their homeland. The only Japanese action was to try and negotiate with the Soviets and the Soviets never entertained them. Ultimatum passed. The Japanese never even made an attempt to open a direct contact with us knowing that an invasion was imminent. Yea were such bad goys.
I read it in a book and a some german web sites
(one of them).
It's funny how you always demand proofs for my claims while you want me to believe YOUR claims without any evidence.
It was Japan's hopeless situation that forced them to surrender. The soviet declaration of war & invasion of Manchuria AND the nuclear bombings. It was not the bombings and the declaration of war alone that lead to the win. Just admit that the Soviets helped you, it's a fact.
> The Declaration was never transmitted to the Japanese government through diplomatic channels.
Lol usa just told they will bring hell on Japan and they did, there were no answer because they never talked with a diplomat or something, this was like the panflets the brazilians soldiers got from germans to atack the moral of them.
>The soviets helped you
You mean the Soviets rolled through under supplied Japanese divisions that the US had cut from their oil and armaments. It was a landgrab. Not to mention the fact that those isolated divisions had no way of helping the Japs defend their homeland. At the point Russia attacked them Japans army in Manchuria was inconsequential to the ultimate fate of the war. But thanks for the help tho.
And 220,000 Japanese civilians deaths are okay?
As a Japanese-American who browses /his/ and sees this argument made a million times there, and understands the historical situation, I know that the nuclear attacks were wrong.
Japan accepted a surrender on the condition that the emperor be allowed to remain. America rejected it on August 1st 1945.
When the bomb at Hiroshima was dropped the knowledge of the attack did not reach Tokyo for a day. Many in Tokyo thought it was another firebombing.
There was a massive push to accept the unconditional peace deal where the emperor would be deposed, but the military generals slowed the bureacratic process. The Emperor then intervened and ordered the unconditional surrender of Japan and announced to the Military council that he would step down as emperor.
When Nagasaki was destroyed a day later the Military council realized that it was not just another firebombing because a few of the photos of Hiroshima had come in in the preceding day.
A day later the Military council released the document of unconditional surrender.
Oddly enough America changed the terms of surrender and allowed the Emperor to remain.
In my view the atomic bombs alongside the Soviets victory in Manchuoko and the Emperor's order sped up Japan's formal surrender. But the atomic bombs were not needed because Japan would have soon surrendered.
What the fuck?
We lost 45,000 men (that means KIA) over the entire Pacific Campaign. Operation Downfall and its casualty estimates were PROPAGANDA to make the Japanese believe total invasion was imminent. Our army greatly padded the death estimates, likely to convince Truman of the need to use the bomb.
But anyone with a brain knows we would not lose a million men during Downfall. Also the Purple heart oversupply because of Operation Downfall meme, is a meme.
>ITT weeaboos and the one Panamanian guy eternally butthurt about Operation Just Cause delude themselves regarding Japan
The fact that there are so many anti-America threads just like this that get made on a daily basis only proves how much of an influence America has on your everyday lives. You know why you almost never see any anti-Panama or Japan threads? Because Americans don't give a fuck about you or your unimportant, boring country. We are our own little world, and you most certainly partake in it too; you watch our TV shows and movies, you listen to our music, you eat at our restaurants, you wear our clothes, your young scholars come to study at our universities, you know how our government works and who's in it, and you definitely love to talk about us. Holy shit you love to talk a lot about us, be it positive or negative. You faggots sure love talking about America considering how much you loathe it. You care more about America than Americans do. Go worry about your own damn country, because I certainly don't
I am ashamed of this American.
>If we got the rockets we would nuke New York
what the fuck why do people worship him, if this quote is real then he is just an irrational fuckhead rather than a normal butthurt latino.
>Japan would have soon surrendered?
And how were we to know this? The Japanese lost the war at the Battle of Midway in 1942 but fought on for 3 more years suffering over a million casualties for a war it had already effectively lost. Then it lost Okinawa and we were at their doorstep and they still refused to surrender.
I am not him, but the actual reason for the second was political rather than winning the war. Basically to show everyone else that America could fuck their shit up beyond recognition, as they could make that big boom happen multiple times in quick sucession.
....if they were being invaded by America.
We said the same for the Soviets if they didn't pull out of the sovereign nation of Cuba.
We dedicated 300 nuclear weapons in 1963 on Moscow. And 20 on the Kremlin.
>Obvious posting style is obvious
Refute one point I said. Hooray for the Soviets taking on Japanese divisions that didn't even have the oil or arms to counter a Russian attack. Were supposed to be thankful that the Russians attacked paralyzed Japanese divisions after the US had already fought their way to the mainland over 4 years? LOL FUCKING TOP KEK.
The Japanese lost the vast majority of their forces and people in 1945. In just 8 months.
They were under the impression that they could win until then because they still held a VAST amount of territory. It was only when oil ran out in Japan in 1945 that they started getting curb stomped.
Nearly 600,000 Japanese troops were casualties in the 2 week Soviet campaign in Manchuria. Millions of Japanese were starving in 1945.
Shit went downhill for the Japanese fast in 1945. That's why they waited.
>he would have surrendered after Pearl Harbor
>waaah the soldiers lives are worth less than civilians, death to Americaaaa
You do fucking realize that if Operation Downfall happend there would have been more civilian deaths that likely would have been far more painful for them than an atom bomb.
>Japan would have surrendered
Let me try again..
After the Battle of the Philippine Sea Japan didn't have a chance in hell. Leyte Gulf and all that? More dirt on the grave.
But they STILL did not surrender.
Any further war effort on the Japanese from that point on was pure lunacy.
And that, is what I am after.
The Japanese surrendered because of Hiroshima. Not Nagasaki.
It took a number of days for them to get the pictures and eyewitness accounts of Hiroshima being destroyed not by firebombs, but by a so-called "Demon Bomb."
The Military Council was preparing to accept unconditional surrender the morning of Nagasaki.
We bombed Nagasaki to prove we had more than one superbomb. It stopped the Soviets in their tracks in Korea and China.
You said the Soviets and their Manchuria campaign had no contribution to Japan's surrender. You actually downplayed them until you said they were completely irrelevant.
I posted an article with multiple links I can attach that proves you are Wrong.
We are done here.
Yes, Nagisaki was still important and justifiable as it probably had some effect on the world, showing them that atoms bombs were really the shit and that war between countries with them is bad, discouraging more wars that could cause more death.
The cities are both doing fine now anyway.
oh my god unthinkable!
whats funny, after cuba got the missiles usa bent over and flowered its anus, signing an agreement over non-interventionism in exchange for removing missles. its a shame cuba never pressed the button but its a good example that everyone else should follow
Japan running out of oil was an inevitability after the US destroyed their fleet at Midway and they had no way to transport it. They were running on reserves from that point on. If you want to give Japan the absolute most improbable benefit of the doubt then they definitely lost after the Battle of the Philippine Sea. After that there was literally 0 chance they would be able to reestablish their oil routes. Or resupply any of their armies in the vast territory they still controlled.
All of their armies were basically stranded and cut from most of their supplies. Japan knew by 1944 they were absolutely sure to lose the war, but were hoping that if they defended well enough and inflicted enough American casualties they could sue for a better peace deal. They even knew the war was over by then.
You're a funny guy. Still haven't seen you say why anyone should be thankful the Soviets destroyed isolated armies that couldn't have been used effectively at this point anyways. Stay mad
Are you literally retarded
That would be the end of the fucking world if Cuba did that as it would start nuclear war.
Your shitty spit of jungle would be a wasteland due to our little Canal, in fact everywhere would be a nuclear wasteland because of Cuba's retardation.
>The Japanese cabinet considered the Allied response, and Suzuki argued that they must reject it and insist on an explicit guarantee for the imperial system. Anami returned to his position that there be no occupation of Japan. Afterward, Tōgō told Suzuki that there was no hope of getting better terms, and Kido conveyed the Emperor's will that Japan surrender. In a meeting with the Emperor, Yonai spoke of his concerns about growing civil unrest:
>I think the term is inappropriate, but the atomic bombs and the Soviet entry into the war are, in a sense, divine gifts. This way we don't have to say that we have quit the war because of domestic circumstances.
>That day, Hirohito informed the imperial family of his decision to surrender. One of his uncles, Prince Asaka, then asked whether the war would be continued if the kokutai (imperial sovereignty) could not be preserved. The Emperor simply replied "of course."
Here's your answer.
I did not say any of that was not true.
But the argument that Operation Downfall would have led to a million American casualties is absolutely retarded.
Here's a good read.
My personal opinion is that the bombings were wrong for targetting civilians, and Nagasaki was likely meant to send a political message to the Soviets that we had multiple super bombs (we did not).
I may be right or wrong, and I don't hold it against Truman or those people. But I wouldn't have done it.
Hahahaha so killing a 220,000 is okay as long as it saves 300,000? Nice utilitarianism.
The pictures of Hiroshima and smart politics would have done the same job as Nagasaki.
The world was relatively fine 1815-1914. All the nukes did was cast the shadow of nuclear annihalation over the entire world for a century.
I prefer a world without them.
My Grandma (from Tokyo) told me she will never forget that people decided to drop the bomb on other people. I think that shows that it can happen again.
Based upon that, you would be the guy who would have pulled the trigger in 1962 because America had a clear advantage in nuclear capability in 1962.
JFK knew that we would easily win. But he was against killing millions of civilians even though he knew the Soviets would catch up in nukes and threaten us in the future.
Do you realize the prevailing attitude of the time equaled Japanese people to rats and vermin?
KILL JAPS !KILL JAPS !KILL MORE JAPS ! was Admiral Halsey's motto and many agreed with him.
Japan would have surrendered regardless of whether the Soviets had intervened after the second bomb was dropped. One of the reasons Stalin decided to attack when he did was because he was worried Japan was about to surrender anyway and he'd lose out on grabbing some free real estate.
>Here's me addressing the fact you've been samefagging
My view is that the Japanese would have surrendered before that either way.
They had been negotiating a conditional surrender where the Emperor could remain Emperor for the entire summer. America wanted an unconditional surrender.
I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and prolongation of bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer. ...
I was told by those advocating a continuation of hostilities that by June new divisions would be in place in fortified positions [at Kujūkuri Beach, east of Tokyo] ready for the invader when he sought to land. It is now August and the fortifications still have not been completed. ...
There are those who say the key to national survival lies in a decisive battle in the homeland. The experiences of the past, however, show that there has always been a discrepancy between plans and performance. I do not believe that the discrepancy in the case of Kujūkuri can be rectified. Since this is also the shape of things, how can we repel the invaders? [He then made some specific reference to the increased destructiveness of the atomic bomb]
It goes without saying that it is unbearable for me to see the brave and loyal fighting men of Japan disarmed. It is equally unbearable that others who have rendered me devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the war. Nevertheless, the time has come to bear the unbearable. ...
I swallow my tears and give my sanction to the proposal to accept the Allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the Foreign Minister.
Also would you rather be vaporized by an atom bomb or be peppered by thousands of little firebombs, alongside being shot in your house while its on fire.
>The world was fine 1815-1914
Holy shit there is just too much shit to list that was awful between this period, also considering that if atom bombs weren't used on a city nobody would fucking know how devastating they actually were, and it would be much easier to use them the first and only time at a later date.
You should tell your grandmother that she should remember that people also chose to do Nanking and the death march, as well as the horseshit in Korea. Japan isn't some innocent white sheep through all of this.
> colombian this fazed over a thread about the us
> taking sides not with neighbor but with the primordial enemy
lol i sense chicanos, literally the lowest scum anywhere
Ask me something only an American would know. I'm the Japanese-American.
>my pics from San Diego
You realize "vaporized" by the Atomic bomb is not what happens to 90% of the people.
Most die a slow death from heat burns (from the light), from the firestorm, or slowly from the radiation.
1815-1914 witnessed no world wars. 1700-1815 did and so did 1914-1945.
Nuclear weapons are a curse on the planet. They may be useful, but it's a dangerous poison.
Why should we should apologize for winning a war against an aggresive Imperialist nation that had just brutally subjugated most of China and South East Asia and started a war against the US and Britain.
No one knows how it feels to die.
It might be just as bad to die brutally as it is to die in your sleep. We only assume it's different because one affects the people still alive more than the other.
Also most people die brutally in nukes. They don't get vaporized unless it's direct.
They never learn. Don't bother.
They've been told many many times that they had to use the bombs in order to save the world. They end up believing it and you can't make them see something they don't want.
Yes and after 1945 we had no world wars because nukes were such a sucessful deterrent, and I will hold this view until we die from nuclear fire because thats the point when it will be false.
We aren't told that in school, in fact I remember being told that it was a horrifying event in human history. I decided against it once I did basic math to figure out that more civilians, including large chunks of/most of the civilians that died anyway would have died.
USA never fought on their own soil. Always fucking up some country. The only times their citizens felt threatened, saw a glimpse of terror war causes, were Pearl Harbor and 9/11. And they still cry about it. With citizens this ignorant, you can start any war and cause any atrocity you want.
You don't seem to understand how war works, which is odd for a German. It was justified because we said it was justified and there wasn't anyone around strong enough to say otherwise.
Can we talk about why Central American countries are even allowed to post here at all?
tl;dr : Japan only offered unconditional surrender after Russia entered the war in the east, because they didn't want to be gommified, and they thought they could negociate a less harmful peace with USA. But they took too long and Truman wanted to test the bomb, making a show of force against Russia at the same time
>inb4 'murrica won the war singlehandedly
>inb4 it was URSS not Russia
you will though
lol itt american hypocricy at its finest. how can a country that nuked another one, justifying it with war, feel so threatened over a dude that also justified his acts with war?
from the bottom of my heart, americans truly are the worst people
I bet you're one of those faggots at the university that posted red banners with sickles on the fences.
Capitalism helps Panama thrive. Communism will destroy everything we have worked for. And nukes? We're fucking guarantied by America, we have no need for nukes.