Why did the Islamic world peak around the 1400s?
Was the Siege of Baghdad by the Mongols the final blow?
>blaming the Mongols for making the Arabs anti-intellectual and science hating savages
They did it themselves.
I have a question and not even single of you are going to answer it.
So after mongol invasion russians became mongolized but mongols ass raped arabs more fiercely so why dont we have mongol arabs?
The answer is russians were finno ugric mongoloids far before mongol invasion. Thats why finns who were never suffered from mongols are actually mongoloids like russians
Islamic contributions end exactly where Greek stuff ends. Coincidence? Its almost like they were simply translating stuff that was already there....
>mfw today they ran out of stuff to translate from old greek
>mfw today there are no contributions to modern science made by muslims
it was the siege of baghdad along with the rise of european enlightenment
if it wasnt for the mongols, we'd probably be shitposting in an arabic-english hybrid language right now
even if they weren't at their peak, they were still outclassing europeans left and right until at least 1300s
>Butthurt Serb is the first to try and shit up any thread that says anything positive about Islam
Not surprising. You'd think Serbs would be more impartial to Muslims after sucking the Ottomans cocks for 300 years.
>no contributions to modern science made by muslims
I mean there are muslim nobel prize winnners in science (physics & chem). There were also soviet muslims that made some great contributions towards aviation and aeronautical engineering. It's nothing compared to Europaen contributions in the modern era, but its definitely not nothing.
Australian aboriginal contributions would be nothing
>Islamic contributions end exactly where Greek stuff ends
not true at all, but keep telling yourself that ottoman cuck
>that's wrong though
It's not though, speak to a historian, and he'll tell you the same thing.
It doesnt matter now though, since current state of muslims is so embarrassing, that no amount of golden age could excuse it.
>I mean there are muslim nobel prize winnners in science (physics
>He is the first Pakistani to receive the award. He is also the first and only Pakistani scientist to be awarded the Nobel Prize. He was a member of the world wide Ahmadiyya Muslim community, which the government of Pakistan declared to be non-Muslim in Pakistan in a 1974 constitutional amendment.
they structured them
All our political systems, for example, from France to China were analyzed by Plato in The Republic, as were their consequences and Aristophanes in Assemblywomen literally wrote a blueprint of what has been happening since women can vote.
You underestimate ancient Greeks my familotronic
>implying the Shang dynasty even knew who the fuck that was
I'll just tell you four things.
It is impossible to prove a negative, hence why the innocent until proven guilty thing.
If someone claim something happened he has to prove it.
All the evidence and eyewitness testimonies of the Nuremberg trials were debunked literally the day after the prosecution.
It is the only event in history that is illegal to investigate or even superficially question.
Agreed, Greeks were the true pioneers of intellectualism
Muslim philosophers and theologians were heavily influenced Aristotle, and also contributing to it quite a bit themselves.
It might not have directly influenced the chinese, but it directly influenced the muslims, who returned it with their contributions back to europe during the Renaissance. Greeks are the bedrock of western civilization, i.e, the only civilization model that matters tbqh
Confucius, Mencius and their students developed their own school of thought that structured Chinese thought, hence why we have vastly different cultures, societies and outlook on the world.
>It is the only event in history that is illegal to investigate or even superficially question.
this is the only point of yours I agree with, but your other points are laughably retarded and have been disproven time and time again by actual historians, not shitposters on /pol/
Kek here we have a dozen of people, from all political horizons, who were in the "death" camps and wrote books to say that all the jewish genocide thing was bunk, royalists, republicans, socialists, communists, even jews.
Funny how traditional chinese culture was so fucking corrupt and nepotistic and even glorified it.
Seriously, Mao did nothing wrong. He just wasnt thorough enough with wiping out the traditional culture, as it soon swept back after his death and the reinstallation of a capitalist order.
>That's literally not what happened
it actually is fammilia
if you're interested I suggest reading this
China is literally the same as it always was, I always get a kick off retarded American claiming Mao destroyed their culture and glorifying the KMT that did the exact same thing as the CCP in Taiwan.
Check what CKS did in Taiwan, of course the scale is different but it was the same crap, there is a reason his son, after inheriting power, literally undid everything and is the one celebrated in Taiwan, not his father.
Well, the difference there was that Mao and his radical leftists were inspired by progressive intellectuals like Liang Qichao and Lu Xun, who really saw the rot in the traditional culture, and sought to cure that with radical reforms.
The KMT basically turned into a banana-republic soon after Sun's death, and administered the Mainland just as shitty as the Qing were. They only unfucked themselves on Taiwan later on, when they realized how shit they were and learned a great deal from the CCP's practizes of suppressing dissent and building a functioning order first. But aside of that, there were no ambitions to cure China from its ancient shakles in the KMT's ideology. At least the commies tried.
The Islamic world peaked a little earlier than 1400.
While the Siege of Baghdad was significant, the bigger problem was that it was difficult to adapt a printing press to Arabic, and chauvinistic Arab and Persian scientists weren't too willing to study texts written by the barbarian Franks.
With the exception of Turkey, the Middle East slowly lost relevance across the early modern period due to not being part of the colonial game. Had Morocco managed to land colonists in Brazil before Portugal did, history would have gone much differently.
So..the KMT or whatever party was in power did well by the people of Taiwan after a power shift, right? Is that what you're saying?
The difference is that the PRC never liberalized after power shifts. One is a country where traditional Chinese culture is violently suppressed, the other is a stable democracy. Don't blame the forced organ harvesting and massive corruption on Confucius. It's not that fucking simple.
>Was the Siege of Baghdad by the Mongols the final blow?
If they didn't fight with each other thay are have chance to stand against mongols same goes to us. Remove civil wars t.b.h.
The whole "Mongols turned Russians into mongrels" thing is a Nazi meme.
There was some gene flow from the Mongol conquest, but Asian ancestry among Russians mostly came through your own ancestors and other Eurasian peoples who have had extended contact with Russia.
>One is a country where traditional Chinese culture is violently suppressed
Never been to china and spouts cold war propaganda, from Deng they started bringing the four old back and the few nights before their equivalent to Walpurgis you see hundred of people burning money on the street, when people die you hear the taoist priest ringing their little bells and shit, China is still knee deep in its traditional culture.
you'd be surprised at how insecure these autists are, feeling the need to lambaste the accomplishments of any other civilization, just to make themselves feel superior.
case in point:
perhaps.Now follow me here. they both contributed to modern civilization in their own way?
>they don't suppress traditional culture
Tibetans, Christians, Muslims,any other practicing religious groups, citizens that spoke Cantonese, and anyone who doesn't bow to the regime would tend to disagree. Hell, Xi Jinping said that he would end the forced labor system and he still hasn't because the regime as a whole refuses to accept anything that they can't control. What do you think they would do if the Taoists started to become organized? The suppression of Falun Gong and Christianity is ongoing, so you can't blame that on Cold War propaganda.
Muslims contributed by bringing Indian maths to Europe mostly, that is undeniable.
You'll never see me lambast any civilization.
I'm literally an Asiaboo except Korea, Korea sucks.
We both know it was bit more then that,common man, don't be that guy
Christianity is Alien to China and they only refuse those that follow the pope because they don't want foreign influence.
How is that related ?
Read my post again.
The cultural revolution ended and they have been bringing back the four old en masse for 26 years and counting.
Foreign influence lobby.
Are not persecuted, if you go to Sichuan you'll see a massive minority special schools where Tibetans are taught in their native tongue.
untouched if they are members of the Church of China
Hui never had problems, Uighur only get problems because they are foreign influenced terrorists, they have a direct underground network of tunnel with Afghanistan and Talibans.
>citizens that spoke Cantonese
As far as I know it's still the main language in 1/4 of the country.
Seriously drop the cold war rhetoric for a minute.
seriously bro, you can't seriously believe the only things muslims contributed to the western world was indian maths.
theres a treasure trove of books on this issue, go read even one of them to see how wrong you are.
admitting that muslims contributed to world progress wont affect your or your culture in any way, so stop being such an insecure autist.
so you think the "golden age" is something historians just made up because they like muslim cock so much?
literally every respected historian acknowledges the "islamic" golden age. I would agree though that calling it "islamic" is a bit problematic, nevertheless it does signify accomplishments done in the muslim world.
>I don't see how some academics are more qualified than others
are you literally retarded?
>I don't see how some academics are more qualified than others
holy fuck, you're literally a retard
Some factors for consideration, no arguments just things you can google yourself
>Rise of European ocean trade, invalidating the silk road
>stagnation of Ottoman empire's power and central government
>Occasionalism in Islamic theology
>Siege of Baghdad
Most science is borrowed lad, you have to substantiate a bit more than that if you want anyone to take you seriously. I suggest writing more than 2 sentences a post, unless you're just here to have as much presence in the thread as possible without really arguing anything at all.
>the sky is blue
This is a statement
>here is my three paragraph explanation as to why the sky is blue
This is an argument. Learn the difference, it will save your life.
This. It's just feel good multi-culti bullshit (Look! The muslims can create good civilizations!) but it has no basis in reality. Arabs were dumb and illiterate, then after the islamic conquests they're suddenly churning out all this scientific, mathematic and philosophical shit?
>Dr. X of Y University with a chair in Z and 100 published peer reviewed papers on the subject of Islam and ancient civilization
>says Islamic Golden Age is bunk
>Dr. A of B University with a chair in C and 100 published peer reviewed papers on the subject of Islam and ancient civilization
>says we owe everything to Islam
which one is more qualified ?
So to support your retarded claim, you think of a retarded example where the two academics have virtually the same credentials but their conclusions are opposite?
Sure, good example bro. Do you also agree that Albert Einstein and some random physics grad student are equally qualified? They're both academics, after all.
>so to sum it up they became literate got smarter,
but they didn't
99% of "islamic" scientific achievements were by Persians who were literate before Jizzlam
step down of your morale high horse lad, I'm not interested in some random anon gloating
I'm asking specificly about why you think so highly of muslims outside of the belief (which is wrong) that europe owns them the renaissance
Yes I hear Moors invented water irrigation and Songhai built Paris to house their dogs and whites were born when a mentally challenged prince of the Mali empire mated with them while listening to his uncle Mozartongo playing the original Piano that only had black keys because the color white didn't exist.
Why not follow the professor who is professing a point that is unanimously agreed upon by literally every institution, including the most respected, within the western world.
or, just believe Dr. X who is just spouting exactly what you wish to be true.
>Einstein stole his work from several physicists
Well people keep giving him credit for special relativity which was due to Poincare and others. His nobel was for something else and he did independently work on general relativity.
But in any case appeal to authority in physics/mathematics is retarded.
Not part of that argument chain, I'm just trying to make sure this thread doesn't devolve into everyone responding to you in a never ending chain of derivative bullshit and non arguments. If you have something significant to say just say it, cut the ad hominem and endless wishy washy bull.
nah, even in serious publications, you'd be surprised how some subjects are touchy feely. Heck, say, you're a PhD and you want to make something that doesn't fit the mainstream view your thesis, see for yourself how you'll struggle to find a thesis director
that Dr X sounds like a grand fella
Did I say anytthing about interracial relationships you dummy? Get the cucking off your mind.
What I did say is it's simply revisionist history and distorting what actually happened for the purpose of inclusiveness. We only started learning about this so-called golden age after WW2, coincidentally when muslims started to be imported to Europe.
>that europe owns them the renaissance
no one here argued that they owe them the renaissance you frog eating faggot. I swear, you revisionists are so fucking annoying and pathetic.
the muslim world existed far beyond the scopes of arabia. arabs being illiterate barbians affects the golden age in absolutely no way
You do realize that scientific and historical consensus evolves over time right ?
Best example is that now "science" says that races don't exist and it is the commonly accepted "scientifical" truth for 99% of academics.
>Christianity is alien to China
Not my point, my point is that the regime will do anything in its power to suppress those that do not obey its will. This has included traditional Chinese culture.
>How is the Organ Transplantation relevant
Read the article, a large percentage of the Organ Transplants are done using organs harvested from prisoners(mainly Falun Gong practitioners) that do not give their consent.
>Cultural Revolution is over
Again, not my point. The regime does everything in its power to suppress those that do not obey its will. Under Mao's reign, it was thought that the traditional Chinese culture was a threat and had to be eradicated. Fortunately they stopped, but they are still suppressing other groups for the same reason.
>Falun Gong narrative is a result of foreign influence
Are you seriously this fucking dense, there is ample proof that the regime is persecuting them. Hell, the 610 office was founded by Jiang Zemin specifically for this purpose.
>Just so you know what the 610 Office is...
Look up Bo Xilai, Zhou Yangkang, Jiang Zemin, and The Political and Legislative Affairs Committee while you're at it. They made a fucking country off of this shit
>Tibetans are not persecuted
>Christians are untouched IF they bow to the CCP run church
I wonder why they're untouched
I may be wrong, but at one point the CCP forbade schools from teaching Cantonese because they didn't think it was Maoist enough. Cantonese certainly isn't as prevalent as it was before the communists took over
>tone down the rhetoric
What rhetoric, I haven't been providing anything post Cold War apart from the Cultural Revolution. If this is seriously the only defense you have, it's pathetic.
They were illiterate barbarians who paraded other's scientific and philosophical accomplishments as their own. Just like how the holy book of Islam is essentially a plagiarism of the bible with some arab flavor mixed in.
>arabs being illiterate barbians affects the golden age in absolutely no way
"The golden age" was the waning of the Byzantine and Persian cultures in the territories occupied by the Arabs. It took Islam several centuries before it completely destroyed any creativity or scientific curiosity among the people it occupied. The House of Wisdom was built very early and by *heretical* (m'utazilah) caliphs.
You did not address any of my points.
Falun Gong is literally a foreign funded influence agent to destabilize China.
>Are you seriously this fucking dense, there is ample proof that the regime is persecuting them
Never said they weren't persecuted, all I say is that it's justified.
>This has included traditional Chinese culture
good, now you can use the past tense, well done.
>I may be wrong, but at one point the CCP forbade schools from teaching Cantonese because they didn't think it was Maoist enough. Cantonese certainly isn't as prevalent as it was before the communists took over
You are because from Mao, like was done in the CCCP, minorities were promoted to kill nationalism.
Uighur were reislamized when Mao encouraged them to do the Hajj to Mecca.
>I wonder why they're untouched
Because they're not under foreign influence ?
Except they did, because here we are talking about this non-existent golden age of Islam, i.e arabs just stealing knowledge and culture in the name of Islam.
>go back to /pol/
This is how I know I've made my point.
>muslim caliph makes great strides towards building and intellectual tradition
>"he wasn't a real muslim famm"
your thinking exactly like the people you're criticizing
> territories occupied by the Arabs.
muslims weren't exclusively arabs though
no historian argues that bedouin arabs were the intellectual pioneers, what they do argue is that those who did partake in intellectual endeavors were muslims living in the Islamic empire.
>So after mongol invasion russians became mongolized
But they didn't. Mongols never migrated in large numbers during the middle ages They formed the ruling elite in Crimea but that's about it. The kalmyks migrated much later.
>The answer is russians were finno ugric mongoloids far before mongol invasion.
scientific advancements, maybe, philosophical and theological, nope.
>i.e arabs just stealing knowledge and culture in the name of Islam.
keep spouting this nonsense, pretty sure there are people here dumb enough to believe it
also, what does "stealing knowledge and culture" even mean?
It's simple. They occupy the land of those who are more intelligent and sophisticated, and then claim that they were responsible for the sophistication. Is this so hard to understand for your little muslim brain?
>>muslim caliph makes great strides towards building and intellectual tradition
>>"he wasn't a real muslim famm"
>your thinking exactly like the people you're criticizing
And this is a problem how? I'm not saying he was not a Muslim. I'm saying he deviated from Islam enough to appreciate the science of other cultures.
>Mongols never migrated in large numbers during the middle ages
And they probably didn't even have large numbers, estimates put the population of 13th century mongolia to around 1 million?
>and then claim that they were responsible for the sophistication
except they never did that
never once did the muslims ever claim the Greek knowledge was theirs. You're either terribly misinformed, or terribly ignorant.
>every historian agrees existed
They feel guilty that white Europeans have done so much for the human race, and as such ascribe European inventions and ideas to Muslims who did nothing to contribute.
The Mongol factor is overrated, because at 1270's. the Muslim World was a fucking mess. If the Abbasid Caliphate is any indication of Islam's "enlightenment" then it was well stopped before the Mongols ever rolled their ponies in front of Baghdad.
Yes, the Abbasids who ruled from Baghdad were great. Golden Age, the Academies of Baghdad, the great Bimaristan hospitals established all over. Persian Scholars. But that was during the 700's and early 800's
See the map? That's the Middle East during the 1200's. Technically all of Middle East from Persia to Egypt is Abbasid Caliphate. But look at their actual holdings: just Iraq? Why? Because during the latter half of the 800's and the 1200's the Abbasids fucking declined. It was too big, and eventually slip ups with administration and the full control of the armies showed until factions led by revolting generals, radical Imams, or the revolutionaries like the Fatimids and the Ayyubids. In fact the word Sultan (initially meaning "Governor of a Province") became equivalent to "Sovereign King" starting during these times.
Compounding this age of chaos was the conversion of the Turks. The Abbasids didn't rely on the fucking Army anymore and started buying whole Turkish tribes and converting them to protect the Abbasids. What did they get instead? Turkics overrunning the Middle East thanks to their cavalry superiority and creating little empires within it. The cream of the crop which nearly killed the abbasids earlier was the conversion of Toghril and the Seljuk Invasion, during the 900's AD in which the Turks drowned the region in warfare.
Lets not even add the Crusades on the Abbasids shitcake. When the Mongol showed up in Baghdad, it was to euthanize a long rotting empire. And the knowledge accumulated in Baghdad was already in Byzantium, Cairo, and all the way to Spain anyway.
In addition, Islam experienced a second golden age of sorts during the Gunpowder Empires. In which much of Kebabdom was unified under Ottoman/Safavid/Mughal Empires.
This was around 1400's-the mid 1600's.
If the Mongols were such a big factor in its decline, it wasn't indicative of it by the existence of these 3 wealthy empires.
>ISLAMIC golden age
except we're talking about the actual exchange of ideas occurring at the time. Muslim thinkers didn't consider themselves part of a "golden age", nor did they ascribe accomplishments taken from others as their own.
yea historians all over world have written countless books about the issue, just to make muslims feel better
are you mentally challenged or what? does it bother you that much, another civilization had been successful at one period in time?
>Muslim thinkers didn't consider themselves part of a "golden age", nor did they ascribe accomplishments taken from others as their own.
It occurred under the peace and stability provided by the two caliphates.
Furthermore, the Abbasid Caliphate sponsored many universities.
As the Caliph is both the secular & religious head of early Islam, it means it's pretty fucking Islamic. And as there was no single nationality leading the golden age -given that it was an orgy of Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and Spics and the occassional Turk doing the learning & shit.
im not pro muslim but you cant deny the scientific improvement they helped to accomplish during that period, while we were busy betraying and killing eachother while burning witches and heretics. Muslims of today are nothing compare to what they used to be.