>>53464669 It was one of the more if not the most radical language reforms. Lots of (mostly incompetent) people coining new words often out of their asses, reviving words found in early Turkic manuscripts violating sound shift laws etc.
>>53465039 He was an Ottoman commander. He was trying to be elite. I had chance to saw my great grandfather and he wasn't speaking weird language. This is from 1736, Notes of Persia of an Ottoman.
"Yezd ile Kerman arasında kum deryası dedikleri vardır ki inceliği ve beyazlığı saat kumu gibidir ve bir köyleri vardır ki yolcular konar. Damlara ve sokaklara bir adam nazar etse gûya kar yağmış sanır. Yol üzerinde bir buçuk, iki saat çekecek kadar yerde kule gibi miller yapılıdır ki karşına tutar da öyle gidersin. Eğer o milleri sağına veya soluna alır isen, yolu şaşırırsın ve birer ikişer minare derinliğinde kum ile dolmuş hendekler vardır ki hiç belli değil. Atın ayağı eğer oralara basacak olursa kurtulmak muhaldır. Çabalandıkça batar gider."
How is that different from the language that I'm speaking? You know shit Alaverdiyan.
>>53465123 I'm not talking about the original version. It had to be translated twice (in 1963 and 1982)... Anecdotal evidence proves nothing... The artificial nature of Turkish is proved by the fact that I couldn't find a single etymological dictionary of it on the Internet. I would like to be proven wrong on this though, can you provide one? Not Nishanyan's website if possible.
>>53465253 Mustafa Kamâl's speech: En son olarak niyazım şudur ki, Cenâb-ı Vacibü’l-Amal Hazretleri, Habib-i Ekrem’i hürmetine, bu mübarek vatanın sahip ve müdafii ve diyabeti celile-i Ahmediye’nin ilâyevnilkıyâme- haris-i estakı olan millet-i necibemizi ve makam-ı saltanat ve hilâfet-i kübrâyı masun ve mukaddesatımızı düşünmekle mükellef olan heyetimizi muvafık buyursun.
Nobody would understand this if he/she isn't studying history.
Mustafa Kamâl's another speech after the republic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ-KajhkqMU
>>53465309 >>53465405 They're Worse and also Rich as fuck. Inquisition only kills some thousand and the way they dead are less pain, also Inquisition more likely remove heathen than kill them. While medieval Buddhism authority listen to monks and torture other heathen to force religion. Nowadays they're super rich, 9/10 you seen a monk there go outside when they ride a very good bike or a shiny car. You think they good because you only read the book, not really see what really happen.
>>53465452 >And provide an etymological dictionary pls. Not everything is on Internet you know?
Nutuk was written in Ottoman language and with Arabic Alphabet on. It was written from 1919 to 1923. We started to use latin alphabet from 1928 and the language reform was from 1932 to 38. Why are you arguing about this with me? I am Turkish and studying history and have knowledge about the Ottoman Language.
>>53465649 Don't know what Chirstian Chinese do, but now they being persecuted by the Authority. Also, most Chinese are religion-less or folk religion which is one of the reasons they have less morally unlike Europe get cucked when abandon religion.
>>53465645 Provide a link to some online bookstore or something then, surely it is possible to order an etymological dictionary of Turkish?
As far as I understand there was an original (?) version of Nutuk in the Latin alphabet in 1934. Then it had to be translated twice to meet whatever was the state of modern Turkish in 1963 and 1983 respectively. Why? You haven't answered that.
>>53465881 I hate retards hippy talk about how good Buddhism and how bad other religion, well, they retard anyway. The reason Buddhism so calm now because many countries already abandon it or either become minority religion, but if you talk the country have it in majority like Myanmar which currently persecuted other religion and Thailand, which currently in civil war and the small other just too irrelevant for media, you will know how bad it is.
>>53466198 The worst of them just like inquisition. But except dealing with Heretic them dealing with Heathen. Inquisition hangs and burn you, they torture you to death. Inquisition target a little group through a long time, they target a big group in a short time. Inquisition with Christian is for a few age, but with them is Inquistion For Life. In the country where Buddhism is the majority, shit will happen. But if not? they just like Chirstian in Muslim Country. Calm, Peace and Good. Which is happening in West Country. Christian and Muslim is must better than them, honestly.Country which Buddhism is majority, either in chao or too irrelvant.
>>53464156 I have been in Shangai and Beijing in 2008. I have saw some Xinjian Turks and talked a little in Turkish. Numbers are totally same, language is similar. It is closer than how close German and English are to each other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Onl6V_nvM >>53464571 the pleb language stayed mostly the same, it is the "formal" language that got reformed. Beurecracy/literary language had many foreign words (70% foreign, maybe 30% Turkic). Think of it like English.
>>53465253 Nişanyan Sözlüğü dumb erm*ni can't even appreciate his own kind's work :D
You are just speculating by the way, the anon is right, the language that got reformed is the language of bureucracy/elite, the common folk's language hasn't been affected by TDK's reforms, even though TDK aimed to change it as well.
>>53469074 Are you autistic? I know about that dictionary and I specifically asked him not to post it because Nishanyan isn't a linguist.
>You are just speculating by the way, the anon is right, the language that got reformed is the language of bureucracy/elite, the common folk's language hasn't been affected by TDK's reforms, even though TDK aimed to change it as well. Lel, proofs? All I've said so far is based on The Turkish language reform: a catastrophic success by G. Lewis.
>>53469276 >because Nishanyan isn't a linguist. because he doesn't have a diploma? lel >Lel, proof sure thing. >17th century, Kul Mustafa Kalktı yelken eyledi Murat Reis Baş başa düşmana varırım demiş Vaktinize hazır olun gaziler Ya ser verir ya ser alırım demiş. >21st century turkish Kalktı yelken eyledi Murat Reis Baş başa düşmana varırım demiş Vaktinize hazır olun gaziler Ya ser verir ya ser alırım demiş >18th century, Bayburtlu Zihni Zihni dert elinden her zaman ağlar Sordum ki bağ ağlar bağban ağlar Sümbüller perişan güller kan ağlar Şeyda bülbül terk edeli bu bağı >21st century modern turkish translation Zihni dert elinden her zaman ağlar Sordum ki bağ ağlar BAHÇIVAN ağlar Sümbüller perişan güller kan ağlar Şeyda bülbül terk edeli bu bağı >19st century Dadaloğlu Belimizde kılıcımız kirmani Taşı deler mızrağımın temreni Hakkımızda devlet etmiş fermanı Ferman padişahın dağlar bizimdir. >21st century modern turkish translation Belimizde kılıcımız kirmani**** Taşı deler mızrağımın temreni Hakkımızda devlet etmiş fermanı Ferman padişahın dağlar bizimdir.
***Kirman is a city in Iran so even though people might not know what Kirmani means, there is not translation for Kirmani :^)
I can go further back if you'd like? Here is my favorite poet who didn't even live in Anatolia, but in Iran, and who is known for his "artsy" language he uses in his work. >14th century Nesimi Hâr içinde biten gonca güle minnet eylemem Arabi Farisi bilmem, dile minnet eylemem Sırat-i müstakim üzre gözetirim rahimi iblisin talim ettiği yola minnet eylemem >translation Hâr içinde biten gonca güle minnet eylemem Arapça Farsça bilmem, dile minnet eylemem Sırat-i müstakim üzre gözetirim rahimi iblisin talim ettiği yola minnet eylemem
>>53469861 >want proofs >get proofs >""uh, not them, heheh, something else!! :D" It is your turn to provide proofs that 19th century's folk Turkish and 20th/21st century's folk Turkish is any different. Or I call the moustache man ;^D
>>53469924 >le copypasta from some no-name mudslimes who got executed for being heretics >proof Epic, simply epic ;^) I want works from respectable scholars. Can you provide le folklanguage words for geometrical figures?
>>53470063 kopi past değil alın teri, kendi kitaplarımdan yazdım ;) emeğe saygı +1 vs. vs. vs. >kul mustafa >dadaloğlu >heretics >no name huh :D My proof stands, I don't have to find an article that suits your point of view. Poetry is the prime example of folk language and you can see in these works that the langauge is same (or you can't, because you don't know Turkish). So if you have any objections, come with proofs that these language"""s""" above are actually different. I will accept even Greek or Armenian works :^)
If you want sources for the poems though, I'd be glad to give you them. Might even translate for you :)
>>53470417 You cannot be sure those poems weren't edited then... Never trust anything that comes from Turkey. Not even memeing.
Like I said everything I say is based on the book I mentioned earlier. And it says that any kind of Turkish before the reform differs quite a bit from the post-reform Turkish.
If the whole reform was just going from Ottoman Turkish to le folk Turkish as you seem to imply then why did TDK have people coining new words and reviving words from shit like Dīwān ul-Lughat al-Turk (some Azeri autists are still doing this xD) etc?
I would like to work with what you have presented but I'm not good enough at Turkish and you'd be able to deceive me with ease. So I want something from Western scholars.
>>53470714 >You cannot be sure those poems weren't edited then. kek, okay mister armenian memester. And I thought I could actually talk with you >namedrops one (1) book, without even writing the part related >ignores everything I wrote >only accepts "scholarly works" that suits him srsly though you should return to behave like you were just janitoryan. >>53472115 Kazakh is a Kıpçak language and is harder to understand than Karluk (Uzbek and Uygur) languages for Oghuz speakers. Turkish-Kazak relation is like English-German relation, while Turkish-Uygur relation is like Swedish-German relation, if that makes sense for you.
>>53470714 >If the whole reform was just going from Ottoman Turkish to le folk Turkish as you seem to imply then why did TDK have people coining new words and reviving words from shit like Dīwān ul-Lughat al-Turk didn't read this part before, and you are wrong again, because I didn't even imply that. >>53469074 > the common folk's language hasn't been affected by TDK's reforms, even though TDK aimed to change it as well.
>>53472890 >kek, okay mister armenian memester. And I thought I could actually talk with you Actually, that's also pretty much the same approach I take regarding Armenia-Armenian sources on history and linguistics. Most of them are rubbish because academia is filled with butthurt nationalists (at least it isn't as bad as Azerbaijan's though ;^)). One of the positive outcomes of the Genocide is that it caused the emergence of Western-educated and almost unbiased scholars of Armenian descent conducting research on all things Armenian.
>>namedrops one (1) book Which is also kinda the most authorative one on the subject and written by an Oxford professor of Turkish.
>without even writing the part related The part related to what exactly do you want? That both modern written and modern "folk" Turkish differ from the pre-reform "folk" Turkish? I don't remember if it explicitly states that but I will try to find it.
>ignores everything I wrote Now, did I?!
>only accepts actual scholarly works FTFY
>>53473141 Well if you weren't implying that then you don't make much sense, do you? How could the reform not affect the "folk language" in the age of public education? And what was the state doing by the reform then if not making "the language of bureaucracy/elite" more "folk"-like, in your opinion? It was doing exactly that and in the same time doing the opposite by making up new words and reviving the dead ones thus eliminating both Ottoman and "folk" words of Arabic and Persian origin. I.e. "purifying" it.
Some of the new words started being used by the "folk" and some stayed just in written/official language or didn't get any use at all.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at [email protected] with the post's information.