Why would smart high school students want to major in Fine Art?

Fine Arts seem easy to an outsider's perspective.

>why won't everyone do what i want them to do!

who are you to decide or judge what other people pursue

>Really, all jobs are repetitive and become monotonous over time

i can't speak for all schools of art but for say a fine artist that exhibits art at galleries for sale that's just not true. they generally spend a year or two creating a collection and then repeat. as well as the animation industry where you can work as say a storyboard artist in one instance and a layout artist in another, etc.

>these people are just being picky

some people want to make it their career. it's completely different than pursuing it as a hobby. they're not being picky because they want to do what they're passionate about.

>Even if these people are super passionate about art, they will get sick of it over time similar to how people get sick of eating the same food each day

this is just facetious and not supported by anything but your own misguided ignorant opinion

>>2331276
I know it is not. So why don't these smart kids just pick a major which leads to an "easy" job such as Actuarial Science or Nutrition?
>>2331278
Most people dislike their jobs over time. It is a fact. A "normal" person will suggest shit like this: http://archive.4plebs.org/adv/thread/16592175/#16592175

>>2331285
>I know it is not. So why don't these smart kids just pick a major which leads to an "easy" job such as Actuarial Science or Nutrition?

These smart kids don't research college majors while in highschool. They just go for conventional majors or whatever their parents force them to take. This is also the reason we have kids changing majors every other semester.

>>2331297
>These smart kids
You mean those who pick Fine Art or what?

>>2331285
>Most people dislike their jobs over time. It is a fact.
i mean if you're going to be dense like that then there's really no point in continuing this conversation. you make blatantly unresearched opinions and try to pass them off as fact and ignore whatever doesn't fit with your ideals


as is typical of this board i guess. idk why i bother

>>2331304
Here: http://www.ryot.org/gallup-poll-70-americans-disengaged-jobs/376177
Also, read http://archive.4plebs.org/adv/thread/16592175/#16592175

>>2331297
This. all the "smart kids" (those who get good grades) are following everything their parents tell them and obviously no parent wants their child to have no job security.

>>2331307
>http://www.ryot.org/gallup-poll-70-americans-disengaged-jobs/376177
30% who enjoy their job is a pretty huge number when you convert it to number of people, anon. i thought you were going to post real statistics.

>>2331368
This is real statistics.

>>2331368
Thirty percent is a lot

i'm not going to say fine art is easy, but i will say it seems pointless to spend all this money on a degree when the industry you want to work for doesn't give two shits if you have a degree.

As long as your portfolio is good, you should have no problem landing jobs.

>>2331951
that's what i said.

>>2331387
i expected a graph, backed up by sources and evidence, not just a random journalist posting random numbers.

Not everyone selects their education / future entirely based on what's the most financially viable.
Sometimes it's short-sighted and based on the whims of a highschool aged teenager (generally not renowed for their strong long-term thinking), sometimes it's driven by genuine passion for a life in art. The former tend to get disenchanted and drop out, and either get a degree in something more useful or do without.

Personally, while I didn't take fine art, I did take an arts degree which wasn't terribly useful (though I've been lucky enough to get steady work despite it). My sister on the other hand is in med school. She enjoys it because it's her passion, but I can tell you for a fact I'd be fucking suicidal doing the hours of study and work she's required to do. Income isn't all there is to life, if you get a high paying job that makes you miserable, you'll just be rich and miserable.

>>2332046

Also, while I can't cite it off the top of my head I'm pretty sure there's been some decent research on the fact that once your income exceeds 75k annually money generally doesn't really make you that much happier. People get used to things very quickly - art is actually good example of the phenomenon, where you can spend years improving and still not be impressed with your own art, even if it's light-years better than when you started. Generally once you've sufficiently wealthy to meet your life needs and not need to worry over-much about not being able to pay your bills, it's just icing that you habituate to.

Also I'm pretty sure doctors and lawyers have a higher than average suicide rate, so there's that too.

>>2331270
Because it's more fun. Also, are you implying you don't have to be smart to be good at art?

>>2331270
No intelligent human being would want to major in anything art-related. If they majored in art, then they were never smart to begin with. They were probably just autistic little faggots who actually studied and did homework for god knows what reason when they could've just done literally zero homework or studying and just winged all of grade school on tests alone.

>>2332025

Not him and I don't care either way about the stats, but I followed the link in the article, and then googled the name of the report they cited.
http://employeeengagement.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Gallup-2013-State-of-the-American-Workplace-Report.pdf
Decide for yourself whether the report is legitimate, I didn't bother reading it, but it's not a reporter pulling the numbers out of their ass. I don't know if they used that exact report, it might have been a different year, but it's same organization and same subject.

>>2331997
Agree!
>>2332053
>income exceeds 75k annually money
Implying someone with a Fine Art degree can earn that much.
>>2332054
All jobs suck over time.
And nah, Fine Art is for people who can't pick anything else at collge or uni.

>>2332080
Yeah but when you go into art is much easier tho switch from sculpting, to painting, to graphic design, to film making, fashion etc. than changing you specialization from medicne to economics or coding.

In my highschool most people who didn't know what to do just picked management or something like that. No direction in life when I asked them. (Which is fine I mean what the fuck do 18yrs old know?)

Anyways anyone who is going to art school just to get job is fucking retard and will not make it anyways.

>>2331270
I got 5s in AP exams for Chem, Phys, and English. I went for art degree because it seemed more challenging. I mean, I can just go do those other things if art gets boring..

>>2332143
Difficult to switch to Medicine (if you are not in the US) when you already picked your major.

>>2332146
I finished school a while ago. Never once thought of switching degrees really.

I think I'd be more into industrial or pharma chemistry, or astrophysics, on nuclear physics. Orrrr, something more theorectical but there probably aren't many jobs there. I honestly haven't looked into it so I don't even know what the specifics are in terms of what kind of degrees lead to what kind of jobs.

>>2332162
>already finished school and STILL don't know what kind of careers different degrees could open up
Is this really the current generation?

>>2332207
lol, well I wanted to do art, so I focussed on that. I didn't go to some shitty university art program, so I had no reason/opportunity to look at other degrees in depth.

Also, I just mean I don't know the specifics, so when I say pharmacological chemistry, I don't know if that's what the required degree would specifically be called if I wanted to pursue a job in that field.

>>2332207
Alsooo, I don't actually want to do any of those things right now. It's just what I would do if I got bored of art.

>>2332220
>what I would do if I got bored of art
That will happen as most people hate their jobs over time.

>>2332257

You keep saying this, anon. Are you okay? Maybe it's time for a career change.

>>2332407
Switching careers is also a waste when you have a stable job

>>2332413
Stable job is for looser wihout balls to live on the edge, fuck off already

>>2332416
I mean, would you give up a government job which is hard for them to fire you? No lol.

>>2331997
I agree with you OP

As a fine artist, art school is a joke and a waste of money. Most of the art students are wannabe natural artists.

>>2332416
How long have you lived in the real world?

>>2332417
You are talking to children.

You all sound like dumb kids. But i dont blame you because i used to think the same way. Take some advice from a fine artist.

Here is some advice for school:

Save your money. Art school is a massive waste of time and money.
If you want to go to school, major in something practical that will help you land an actual job and allow you to live.
Continue your art work while you do all of this until you die.
The majority of you are hacks anyway.
You all seem like hacks.
None of you are great artists or geniuses.
If you must keep going then do it for yourself.
If you are sincere as an artist, this wouldnt even be a discussion.
Art fags.
Life isnt a movie.

Get a degree in something practical. This society is collapsing and your art will take you nowhere. Learn construction, carpentry, eletricity, tailoring etc etc. Work with your hands and do some actual manual labor faggots.

>>2331270
Is it their choice

>>2332463
>Get a degree in something practical. This society is collapsing and your art will take you nowhere. Learn construction, carpentry, eletricity, tailoring etc etc. Work with your hands and do some actual manual labor faggots.

What if you're a lady?

>>2332463
>This society is collapsing and your art will take you nowhere. Learn construction, carpentry, eletricity, tailoring etc
are you expecting some sort of dark age

>These people can just pursue art as a hobby
This is what my hardass immigrant parents always told me growing up to deter me from an art degree but in the real world, it isn't true. School consumes your life and then work consumes your life and in your free time you're too fucking tired to draw. Art is a skill that needs study and work too and it falls out of practice if you don't exercise it. I've made about 1 serious piece of art in the past 2 years and I keep getting more depressed because it's only gonna get worse from here.

>>2332463
don't take your depression out on anonymous people, anon. This is something you have to deal with yourself.

>>2332143
>>2332162
>science, esp physics
>theoretical
You need a PhD for anything "theoretical," broham. Hard as fuck to get accepted to a decent physics grad school when you did fine arts for undergrad.
It's possible for a B.S. in engineering, math, compsci, maybe chem--but anything in the humanities, social science, etc., no, they don't want you.

>>2332463
Garee with nthis, though I would replace those practical jobs with programming or some kind of engineering.

>>2333920
Oh yeah I can relate to this, it takes effort to make time to draw, do studies, fill up a sketchbook, etc. rather than fucking around on random forums or socializing. And then after a day of hard work in school you just want to draw for fun, but you're not proficient enough to have a great time due to lack of studies. Kind of frustrating, yeah. My new year's resolution is making enough time for the stuff that counts, I guess.

Oh yeah, and having said that, forget socializing and marketing yourself on social media. It's like meta-art, and there's already not enough time for art.

Ofc this depends on how hard you're working yourself in school (e.g. going to a top program, double majoring, how disciplined you are with your schedule, etc.) Then it's a priority thing really. It's a weird situation when art is last on priority list, but it still feels good to keep up a skill you're somewhat decent at.

>>2332463
>You all sound like dumb kids
Alright, time for some jaded wisdom from somebody with a realistic perspective!

>This society is collapsing
Oh.. nvm then.

>>2334835
I wouldn't go to grad school. Just start again at the beginning.

>>2331365
sorry but that is unsubstantiated and frankly stupid. i decided to study architecture, in a country where good grades are required. my mum was very unhappy considering the economic state of the last 7 years, and how it affected the construction industry, and my dad would be supportive no matter what i studied.

so naturally, i told my mum to shut up and studied what i wanted to. it's completely retarded to say kids who get good grades will study whatever their parents push them into, a complete generalisatiom.

>>2332416
are you thick? pick a degree in something you enjoy, that excites you, and forty years down the line you'll still be happy with that job

>>2333903
what difference would that make? get real, it's 2016

>>2333920
>>2334850
You can get into the art field without a Fine Art degree. Why waste your marks when you could have studied sonething else?

>>2334986
>I wouldn't go to grad school. Just start again at the beginning.
They don't teach "theoretical physics" in undergrad, it's all the same until you take grad courses specializing in certain fields.

>>2336834
That's exactly what I meant in >>2334850. I'm studying science, and it's a bit hard to make time for art.

>>2332463
But what if you're really bad at math? Almost all of those degrees require you to take Calculus.

>>2331270
>Job market for Fine Art is super bad
There is good for smart people. Other artists are too retarded to network properly. Not to mention, a smart person can improve faster than a dumber one. Smart people dominate every market.
>Every job has its own terrible aspects and most people hate their jobs over time
I'm not just a painter. I'm an artist. It's too broad a thing to hate. I also 3-D, write, and script and it feeds into my ability to draw in the end.
>Really, all jobs are repetitive and become monotonous over time
So what difference does it make? I'm enjoying this and making a good living.
>Even if these people are super passionate about art, they will get sick of it over time similar to how people get sick of eating the same food each day
Again, it's too broad a thing for you to really say that. I'm not drawing the same shit everyday.
>These people can just pursue art as a hobby
I rather spend hobby time doing something where I can improve in a linear fashion to keep me level headed.
> They can learn to love a job which pays better - these people are just being picky
These jobs also require more hours. I can earn a months rent in 2-5 days of freelance work. The rest of the time I can go on trips or just relax and study more art, because it's fucking fantastic to learn.

>>2337248
>These jobs also require more hours. I can earn a months rent in 2-5 days of freelance work. The rest of the time I can go on trips or just relax and study more art, because it's fucking fantastic to learn.

This, you guys. It's actually possible to achieve. I work less than 2h per day average.

>>2337190
No nigger. I went to an art school, got a Bachelors of Design. If I wanted to change fields I would go to a university, get a more applicable degree, then go to grad school if necessary.

Why in hell would I use my art degree to get into grad school for a science? What about 'starting over again' tells you I would only go as far as a Bachelor's? You're making ridiculous assumptions.

>>2337461
Actually, I see now why you said
>They don't teach "theoretical physics" in undergrad
When I said 'I wouldn't go to grad school', I meant 'not directly'. I never went to university, so of course I would need to take regular+appropriate uni courses first. Basically, I have a Bachelor's degree but never went to uni :)

>>2337463
>replying to own post
>I'm still retarded
>2016

BASICALLY I have an arts degree, but you can just pretend I'm fresh out of high school. It's not like I'd be banned from grad school if I have both a BDes and BEng.

>>2337248
>There is good for smart people
So? The chances of you achieving success is extremely slim.
>It's too broad a thing to hate
I don't think dealing with picky custoners and unstable income are fun.
>>2337414
Lol this is bullshit.

>>2337732
>Slim
You can make a fantastic living if you're not retarded and know a thing or two about business.
>I don't think dealing with picky custoners and unstable income are fun.
Picky customers are fucking money banks. I charge more for complexity and if they want to add and change shit. Not thinking an unstable income isn't fun? That's just you then. Some people like stability and view a 9-5 STEM job as the highest point in their career. Which by the way is very over saturated ATM. Artists, actors, writers, body builders, musicians, and the like strive off risk and reward. From what I've seen the only ones that don't make it are the ones that burn bridges and are generally fucking dumb.

>Lol this is bullshit.
I believe it. I have a few friends that work 3-4 months a year and vacation the rest. Getting work 2 hours a day though. He's probably a well established porn artist.

>>2337732
I guess you just suck at life, bro.
Haha no, jk champ, u aight.

>I don't think dealing with picky custoners and unstable income are fun.

Personally, I haven't had many problems in that area. People are generally nice. Dumb, but nice :) Maybe the problem is you.

>>2337834
>He's probably a well established porn artist.

Nope, just boring old commercial illustration. Can't do porn anyways, I have trouble making things 'sexy'. 3 jobs per month at average $500 each. Each takes about 20 hours. I suppose the caveats would be: 1: Low living expenses (no family, live with roommate). 2: Doesn't include time spent on self-promotion (but that's only maybe 10 hours every 3 months). On top of this, I spend maybe another hour per day practicing, working on personal stuff.

>>2338703
Addendum: When I say '2 hours per day', I mean a week of doing nothing, followed by a couple 8 hour days sort of thing. Procrastination problems.

>>2331270
..because Fine Art's the omniferous, all-embracing discipline can been choosen ..

>>2331270
I didnt like anything else and I was good at art.
I did a foundation year then majored in sculpture.

I never really thought about my end career. I had some big exhibitions and that. I didnt want to do fine art for a living.

Any degree is better than no degree at all in the UK. My friends from Alevel college were all applying so I just did. (It was a hell of a lot cheaper to go back then)

Thats it really.

Im a teacher now, which apart from the paperwork I actually like and its good money. Art became a hobby anyway, why not do a degree you like? All the other eachers I know did ones that they didnt enjoy, or did a 4 yr teaching degree. seems like a waste of life to me

When I see how much a yank education costs, im not surprised that people are put off art college.

If I could go back in time, idve done an illustration degree I think

>>2332056
Autists?

4 years at art school is fun as fuck. Drinking, partying, shit even our tutors were in the bar all day. Free time, use of cool equipment , a studio, interesting lectures.
Autists wouldnt like it much

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>>2339896

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>>2339896
Retard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

>>2339899
only a fool goes into it thinking theyre going to do fine art as a career. Thats why art schools are full of rich kids or loafers.

I wouldnt have described the experience as gruelling. It was more of a doss than I thought itd be, I dont know anyone who put in 8hrs of anything other than drinking and no one learnt fuck all how to make anything

Id still recommend it as a place to get a degree if youre not the sort of person whos cut out for a normal university degree course. And I wasnt. I cant believe I managed to get one.

I would still recommend an art degree in something vaguely useful. But the main benefit is meeting lots of rich people. for the love of god stay friends with them all after uni

>>2331270
UK art grad here, my reason is pretty much because my mum and teachers kept telling me I had a gift and I believed it
>>Job market for Fine Art is super bad
I knew that, but was prepared to have a part time normal job anyway and I when I applied to art school it wasn't so hard to survive as self employed. Fucking tories.
>>Every job has its own terrible aspects and most people hate their jobs over time
Figured I would always love painting
>>Really, all jobs are repetitive and become monotonous over time
Same as above
>>Even if these people are super passionate about art, they will get sick of it over time similar to how people get sick of eating the same food each day
Same as above
>>These people can just pursue art as a hobby > They can learn to love a job which pays better - these people are just being picky
Have you ever tried to love call centre work?

In hindsight, yeah, art school was fucking stupid and I'm doomed to be poor forever.
But I have a feeling no matter what degree I picked I would have the same employment prospects, so it's not like it matters. The only thing I regret about Art school was wasting my time there, I should have deferred and experienced real life first.

>>2339907
>for the love of god stay friends with them all after uni
It's really hard to stay friends with rich people when you're poor bro, they want to go to the fancy bars and shit.

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>>2339907
>Id still recommend it as a place to get a degree

>I would recommend spending upwards of $80,000 to attend a school that doesn't leave you with the credentials necessary to work the front counter of a fast food restaurant

No?

>>2339901
i said dont go into it looking for a career in the arts and youll be fine. Enjoy art college. then grow up and get a job, not in the 'arts'.

>>2339922
That's absolutely retarded though, what the fuck f a m. You can't be serious.

>>2339913
I know, thats the problem I had, they all swanned off to Berlin and NY together too.
But its the one recommendation id make if anyone did actually want an art career after college.

>>2339921
i spent about 9k in fees. Cheap as fuck loan to pay for it and living expenses, no need to pay it back until I earned about 20K. Super low interest. And this is in London bearing in mind.

Now I earn just over 40k which suits me.

A degree is a degree,just get a decent job doing anything, I dont know why you faggots dont get this?

are the only options after art college working in macdonalds, why do you think this? Those poor fucking idiots make that choice, because they want to still fit in 'making their art' and believing theyre going to 'make it'.


I had a laugh,

>>2339924
why? Does everyone who goes to college end up with a cushy well paid job in a related field? How young are you that you would think that?

Obviously this attitude isnt for yanks because your education is so laughably overpriced I dont understand how any of you can afford to go or pay off the loans

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>>2331270
Honestly, majoring in art or doing a double major in art is a seriously good idea. Pic related is all the proof needed. As a recent college graduate going to medical school in August, I regret not taking art classes.

Netter majored in art, went to medical school, illustrated a very widely used anatomy book. To be an art major does not exclude you from any other professions.

>>2339927
>swanned to NY
Eurgh that. I keep swallowing the koolaid and wanting to follow them but the visa thing is scary and I doubt I could hack it, it must be nice to just do that on impulse.

We are similar people, except you had the sense to be in London. For some reason I took the bait and went to Glasgow, shit's cold and dark.

>>2339921
If you worked the counter of a fast food restaurant you wouldn't even have to start paying back that loan, just saying. You can pay rent from a part time job and then put whatever earnings you make from art towards being old and just never pay it back.
Or just fuck it and mangle a knee or something, go on benefits forever.

>>2339935
Are you at Glasgow now? I really thought about doing an MA there at the time

Believe me, we all thought about earning just under the loan repayment amount, but living in London is expensive, same as anywhere in England.

I hate to break it to you, but there isnt going to be any earnings from art unless youre very dedicated with chasing galleries, and making sellable stuff that reasonable people want to buy. My work was all a bit too conceptual, I never even tried to sell it, although as I say, I got quite a few international shows out of it.

Depends what you want from life I suppose. Its easier to just go for it and earn enough that the loan repayments dont bother you.

In hindsight i think i shouldve got a fairly well paid office type job that was neither tiring nor taxing on the brain, and used the money to pay for my studio. I tried it every which other way before starting teacher training.

the other problem I had was falling wildly and completely out of love with art in the last few years following a particularly appalling Venice biennalle.


As for NY, would you go to study? Or to live?
Europes got to be easier, but there the whole language thing.

>>2339951
Still here, taking a sensible funded masters just now to see how it pans out, also a bit out of love with art since all the representational painters I knew moved away. Some exciting stuff happens here sometimes but honestly the scene is just too small and incestuous and the rain is eternal and everything is minimal concept art- so maybe you would like it here.
On the plus side, the cost of living here is much lower which is probably why I can afford to be as lazy as I have been and the flats are sometimes big enough that you don't need to rent a studio.

I want to go live somewhere other than the UK, I just feel really boring right now. I think the hardest step would be getting rid of all my stuff, I can't bear to think about it! Big flats are a curse.
Are you teaching now? Do you think you would move away?

>>2339980
Id like to move, but my entire family is here. Ive always lived in London, which is a bit boring I guess? It didnt seem so bad at the time because all of my mates at uni were from literally everywhere else. Not so good when they all move back!

Plus Ive got a partner and weve just bought a house.

Ive been to Glasgow, its definitely a city I can get on with.
I am currently teaching, im going to go part time soon, which is something id recommend if you ever do it. although its a cunt of a job these days(Its really changed over the last 10 yrs) I do quite like it. I never planned to do it, it just sort of happened and i liked the idea of the holidays and money. The periods in between permanent positions I could get £120 and up per day doing supply.

If I had a time machine id move to Oz. Fuck being cold and unmotivated 8 months a year.

I think if youre going to do a bit of time abroad now is the time to do it. everything gets more complicated the longer you leave it.

you a painter or a sculptor? or both?
I havent made/exhibited anything since late 2013. Poxy rennaisance master tier level art in vencie combined with the terrible show really killed my motivation dead. (The Jeremy Deller pavillion was good though)

>>2340036
Similar boat, I've also settled down and that also plays into staying here. In fact, bang on what you've said about now being the time to move, after my last post I've just been lying awake in bed worrying whether I've gotten too complacent!

That teaching gig sounds pretty nice, I imagine helping kids learn can be rewarding with the right kids even though it really sucks the way things are going with schools etc, but I hope it doesn't stay bad, I was originally heading towards social care work but all those cuts. Congrats on the house, at least you can now work your way towards the earliest possible ozzie retirement.

I'm a painter, pretty much purely decorative, but haven't exhibited for a year and never outside of the UK and probably won't until I finish the Ma which feels awful. I hope you can find a little inspiration eventually, but you sound like you're in a good place and so at least there's no rush.

>>2332463
>mfw am learning tailoring
>mfw have to go to art school first so I can learn how to design
So shit m8s
>teacher doesn't teach art
>just plays YouTube videos with the projector

>>2340118
think of the library, your peers and the atmosphere as the bonus bits. i learnt fuck all about actual sculpting o a 3 yr sculpture degree

Have fun and experiment. And for the love of god sign up to every life drawing class you are offered

>>2340614
yeah I know
>implying I am offered life drawing
Have to ask
Only Fine Art students get it as default, not fashion plebs such as myself
>go to the life drawing class
>teacher just sits in the corner and doesn't do anything
>model starts to fall asleep and also moves like a leaf in the wind
>will actually break pose to join in on a conversation

>same model every time
I'd rather pay for a proper class

>>2340616
all art schools are as cack as each other it seems.
I had one 6 week block total. Same thing, no teacher input. But it was still useful.

Youd think fashion students would be first to be offered life drawing.

Id go if its free because paid for classes are equally shit.


I swear it must be some kind of conspiracy how little skills are taught in these places now. My own school used to be world renowed for the quaility of its art and crafts.

when you watch or read interviews with older illustrators for example, it seemed like they actually got an education

>>2340626
yep
sounds about right

In all likelihood, the government cuts to the arts have probably caused this
>course is about art and design
>not once did we learn any fundamentals of drawing a face in 3D, or fundamentals of design

>had 1 day of isometric drawing regarding 3D Fine Art
>1 day = about 3-4 hours in a class of 25+ with 1 teacher in an extremely loud workshop

>implying I can remember anything other than we used a drawing board

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>>2340626
>I swear it must be some kind of conspiracy how little skills are taught in these places now

It is. Kind of.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/arts/design/art-proves-attractive-refuge-for-money-launderers.html?_r=0

>>2341164
>In all likelihood, the government cuts to the arts have probably caused this

Cuts? Art colleges are private, for profit institutions and are among the most expensive schools to attend. The western acceptance and lauding of anti-art and dada horseshit is what caused this phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9skl9nijPM

>>2341173
Yeah makes sense to be honest
No coincidence that most of my tutors weren't even practising artists, but theory lecturers and out and proud communists. I didn't think it was odd at the time, I just thought that's what college was like