I'm mean its all over the bible?
"And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."
"…Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?"
Exodus 22:24 (25)—If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest.
So yeah? Why do devout Christians have a 401K and interest bearing savings accounts?
How can they reconcile that?
>Catholics running indulgence scams to help build golden palaces and pay for master works of art
>Protestants = entrepreneurial spirit, capitalist work ethic.
How DO they reconcile that?
Yeah, if Protestants are all about capitalism, why are they for something that is all about charging interest (especially to the poor).
It specifically says in the Bible not to do that.
Yet many modern Christians are like... But muh 401K!
Because lending and borrowing and the foundations of the money economy and the industrial revolution which improved almost every aspect of society.You want a world with interest you want communism.
We're actually trying to fix it.
>Just like Islamic banking, the Orthodox Financial System does not allow service charges on loans. Participants of the system share risks, profits and losses. Speculative behavior is prohibited, as well as investments in gambling, drugs and other businesses that do not meet Orthodox Christian values.
It is difficult to live one's life like this in a world that practically demands utilizing services such as banks and loans. As far as capitalism, I have interest in it because I believe it to the be the best policy in terms of economic policies that my vote can affect. While I am a Christian, I believe that when participating in government I must put first and foremost the interests of its inhabitants, that is to say, I must not use it to force aspects of my religion upon others, as long as my ability to practice them myself is unhindered.
Because banks, loans, etc. benefit nonbelievers considerably, it would be unreasonable to fight against them with anything but my participation. Now do not confuse me, If Usury is indeed a sin (i do not believe it to be, but regardless) I may indeed fight against them by requesting every person I can not to use them, and by pointing out the reasons for it being a sin, but requesting them be removed on any governmental or administrative position is unreasonable, and a terrible use of power. Only when programs and practices are otherwise harmful to participants physically, relationally, or in any other tangible way should Christians use governmental power in a non-christian state to enforce its laws.
Only if, through the orderly request of the majority, a political state declares itself a christian nation should any restrictive religious laws be mandated. America is not such a nation.
Why do you think Putin outlawed gay parades and swearing on TV, as well restricted abortion? Christianity is extremely powerful there, and growing in power because it is so tied up with the Russian national identity, and because modernism is associated with the West and therefore seen as undesirable.
Look. I'm not arguing we should do away with the cornerstone of our economy.
I am saying as a non-Christian, how can Christians still be Christians when they don't follow their own rules.
I mean, I'm fine if you say "I'm not a Christian and I support usury."
But if you are a Christian, why haven't you just given up on your religion all together as you don't seem interested in following the rules set forth for you.
Some don't ignore the part about usury. Some Christians (the truly devout ones) only have debit accounts.
Well I just looked up the definition of usury. It isn't interest as I thought it is "excessive interest" and what is "excessive" or not is up for debate I suppose. But the point is charging interest is not flat out banned, just "excessive" so I suppose they do follow the rules in this case. Although 90% of Christians I know and hear about break a bunch of other rules all the time like praying in public or amassing wealth.
I'm the Orthodox Christian, and you're absolutely right, usury is a sin and there is no way getting around it. The Church does allow some interest when it comes to lending money, but only at the rate of inflation--that is, to make the repayment equal to what was lent, it can't be to make a profit.
As for retirement plans, it's best to go for investment based on buying shares of a business, as opposed to building on loan interest. Even the system of capital is iffy, though, but it is preferable because at least it doesn't require confession.
The first reason is ignorance. The majority of people involved in Christianity have not read the Bible. This is another issue in of itself. How can you claim to be a christian if you do not know all of that which the religion is comprised?
The answer is better explained by theologians than me, but in crude terms it has to do with the principle act of redemption of Jesus Christ. The act comprised the entirety of mankind's sins, and according to Jesus while he lived on earth, all one had to do was to accept the gift and follow him. This raises issues, especially in light of the infamous reformations of the 16th century, when huge numbers of church-goers were illiterate, and even those that were largely could not read the scriptures unless they studied Latin. The responsibility of ministers to convey the ESSENCE of the scriptures to the masses is a difficult debate to have. How can the average peasant understand the significance of the pharisees 2 millennia later? Or worse, how can the mentally retarded hope to be able to comprehend a Roman-Jewish experience? Some would say that they must strive to understand the text themselves, educate themselves so that they can know God's truth, and other would say that they can be taught the essence, that they can be told the basics, and that even this would be enough, would be preferable to nothing.
there's some interesting debate to be had there.
The second reason is that many consider the "real meaning" of the term to be found in context, and that the excess and unreasonableness of demanding interest can not be the equivalent to a system where even the lendee is ultimately benefited by paying scheduled interest on various accounts
Now, I am still studying scripture and, due to being raised with incomplete and differing belief systems, I am operating on a "temporary" set of moral guidelines, so take as you will, but I think that this sort of thing is an unrespectable practice, but only a sin in excess.
>How can you claim to be a christian if you do not know all of that which the religion is comprised?
The Bible is mostly written for people who are already Christian, as opposed to prospective Christians.
Good question, your pic rel is only time Jesus got pissed off really bad.
How can Yanks be about "muh property, muh capitalism" and reconcile that with "Jesusland" at the same time?
Banks are prime evil, which is why I abstained from having account till I was really required to have one.
Wish "Christian banking" existed, in similar manner to "Islamic" one. They really are against usury.
True. I was generally referring to the Gospels, but thank you for bringing that up
Just to clarify, you're telling me that the Bible is not the ultimate source of revelation, but is merely an extension of apostolic practice and tradition which set in writing that which was said and established by Jesus and the early church? If that is true then yeah my post is sort of irrelevent. I suppose that was because I was writing it in terms of the protestant ideology of the Bible as the primary, inviolate source of revelation. I write about what I know after all.
That would be because 4chan is site that's half porn and otherwise caustic as fuck, so most christians using the site probably aren't very good ones
Well, the synoptic Gospels are intended for all ears, but the Gospel of John was written only for those initiated. It opens with the original secret Christian creed for the initiated (which was updated several times, the Nicene Creed being its final form).
If God wanted usury to be a sin then why did he make it so overwhelmingly useful? An individual who obtains tremendous wealth through smart investments and a Christian lifestyle can use that wealth for a greater good.
side note: what do you guys think the Pope has his money invested in?
>If God wanted usury to be a sin then why did he make it so overwhelmingly useful? An individual who obtains tremendous wealth through smart investments and a Christian lifestyle can use that wealth for a greater good.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Did you even read the Bible?
See Matthew 6:
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Jesus predicted this dilemma would happen and he told you how to solve it.
I don't have much of a head for finance, but this issue has interested me before and whilst I didn't glean much from it I found a website/blog called 'zippycatholic' very useful. If you search zippycatholic usury you'll find it.
this post is also good http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/social-teaching/economics/92-social-teaching/economics/385-usury-and-the-love-of-money.html
>usury was all interest on loans
>money can not produce money
>suddenly people consider risk
>"if i lend this man 5000 and i lose all my money i will be broke. surely i deserve some reward for my risk?"
>and so the definition of usury receded a little
>"if i lend 5000 then i do not have 5000 to invest in my businesses, thus i lose money, goods, properties..."
>the definition recedes...and so on
The topic of usury strikes me as one familiar to people wary of Vatican 2. Yes, the dogma remains, but it becomes clouded with new definitions and additions until the new definition is pretty much the opposite of the original dogma. This is called neo-modernism, but as we see with usury it's not just a modern problem.
Because they DID ban usury, it's just that we live in a secular world now thanks to the enlightenment period. Look at the muslims if you want to see what being a fundamentalist prick does to you and your country
That is the case.
I'm sorry to burst your Protestant bubble but Sola Scriptura is in fact something new. It isn't something that Christians had prior to Protestantism's birth.
The very fact that the NT was the oral Apostolic Tradition set into writing is proof of this and to Lane, that oral Tradition became the context to understand what is written down.
>Tcw real prude in site full of degenerates
>Was surprised boards like /christian/ were even a thing with notable population
[spoiler]I'm asexual, don't judge me pls[/spoiler]
I thought people with any kind of morals only browse KC where I am too, and 4chan is just for fullblown degenerates. Wew.
Cargo cult is a Russian meme, it comes from a cult with same name. What is best applicable by it are "cuckholes" today.
As one Russian poster on KC laid it out
>Cargo cult means superficially repeating what western people do without understanding the underlying mechanisms, and thinking that it's the superficial behavior which makes the Westerners rich and develop.
>Like, you notice that many Westenrners own IPad, therefore if you buy an IPad too (after collecting your salary for 12 months), you're suddenly rich & western and develop
I thought it means mindless Westernbooism and forsaking your culture. Aka what Peter did, when compared to Meiji for example.
I hate Western culture and cargo cult, they're fucking apostates. European Union is road to our destruction.
>How can they reconcile that?
Most Christians don't know a lot about their religion, minus "give money to hobos!".
Christianity is actually a spiritual journey towards an ascetic existence, with humility, kindness, and charity along the way. This existence, paired with the acceptance of God's love, is Salvation. Hell, on the other hand, is completely rejecting the love of God.
The religion was made by poor people. Poor people struggle with money and don't understand economics so naturally they hate the 'evil rich people'.
Taking loans is essentially to starting a business, businesses which give jobs to the poor people. If it weren't for "usury" you would without a job and struggle to feed yourself.
>"And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."
So what does this "metaphor" stand for?
>know professor and grad students who have devoted substantial chunks of their lives to arguing about the extent to which usury prohibitions/dislike was historically significant and interpreted
>tfw the only reply i can muster to this thread is "IT'S A WHOLE LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN YOU PROBABLY THINK"
>If it weren't for "usury" you would without a job and struggle to feed yourself.
That's ridiculous. There have been more cases of epidemic unemployment since capitalism then before it. The two go hand in hand. The labor force was allocated differently beforehand, with many more people involved in agriculture. Sudden, and large scale unemployment crises is a capitalism thing.
>thanks to the enlightenment period
Usury was enabled by the Catholic church long before the Reformation or Enlightenment, about 1200, soon after the crusades to redistribute all the wealth they stole with strings attached. If you think about it, Christianity was tossed into the trash by the crusades in the first place but this is just the progression of the Abrahamic mind control cults and feudalism in general. Islam codifies holy war and holy rape! Now that's progress!
Usury destroys any monetary system it infects due to simple mathematic principles of expansion, when money makes money you need to expand the money supply, at some point interest and service charges will consume the principle and more. This was why when first enabled it was kept at 3% simple interest and violations were met with swift decapitation of the culprits head. I would suspect this was because even the clergy of that day realized the dangers inherent in it.
Today we witness economical carnage regularly as monetary systems expand and collapse through this effect, now with a quasi global monetary system this carnage arrives in all corners. This was why baby Jeebus lost his shit with the money changers in the temple, they are parasites on humanity who produce nothing of value, wreak havoc on the ignorant.
You know charlemagne invited Jews to live in his empire as early as 800 to get around the usury laws don't you?
You also realize that the first countries to go around this were also the most flourishing medieval countries around right?
not to mention, how it leads to massive resource wasting. pic related is an example on the kind of shit we are wasting resources on producing because we decided to take the desire of petty consumers as a metric for gauging how to allocate resources.
even better example are the "new and improved" car models we churn out every year, only to throw out old ones that just need some fine tuning.
how about the way so many products (esp. in electronics) are built not to last so that you have to replace them with new ones?
sorry, here is pic related
Agriculture has become so efficient we do not need as many people to do it. If 'usuary' was banned than we would still have the same efficient agriculture, it would just grow slower because no one would get loan. Also the small number of smaller farmers would be completly removed, since they couldn't get a loan for anything. Only the people that already have money would have the cash in hand to do anything.
Hell think about housing. If you had to pay for houses in cash instead of taking a loan imagine how much harder home ownership would be.
Society has changed with technology and so had economics. They actually ban 'usuary' in some Arab countries but because the nature of bussiness demands it everyone just does it under the table and the ones that don't can't compete.
>It's difficult to follow the word of God
>I should only follow God's rules if everyone else in society follows them
>I shouldn't lobby the government to implement these rules so that society at large does follow them as it is my religious duty to uphold a godless form of government
This is why nobody takes Christianity seriously.
>implying the fact that it's difficult isn't repeatedly mentioned in scripture
>give to caesar what is caesar's explicitly states you should follow the law of the land
>implying it's your responsibility as a christian to force the rest of the world into your beliefs through lobbying instead of converting them
They only follow the rules the Jews allow them to. It has always been a cherry picking contest which tries to "reinterpret" old texts to reconcile them with the current zeitgeist. It didn't used to be this way. The Catholic Church, in particular, while having its share of cherry picking, never bent over for anyone.
I'm serious about the Jews. Vatican II corrupted the Catholic Church and many Protestant churches are decentralized and easily led astray. I say, enforce all the rules or none. If you want to go on about how homosexuality, how guys shouldn't have long hair, how people shouldn't get tattoos, etc., then enforce all of the rules. Usury has caused more pain and problems than any of those, yet since usury is Jewish, and Christians and Jews are "friends" (i.e., their bitch), they won't do anything about it. Nothing pisses me off more than cowards who have strong moral opinions when it is easy, and persuade themselves into adopting a socially acceptable viewpoint when it is hard. Man up or shut up.
This is the Jewish scam. You are talking about all money being debt. All money is created through the banking system, and all money has interest attached to it. Even the government can't create money; it borrows it just like us.
It doesn't have to be this way. The government can directly create money that people don't need to pay taxes on, which is what a quarter of our taxes go to every time we pay off interest on the bonds from our government borrowing. Banks can also be banned from creating money via fractional reserve lending. This way the government would be in complete control of the monetary system, and all banks would have to loan money they actually have. There would be no more crashes like 08 because you wouldn't be allowed to gamble (of lend money you don't have) with other people's money.
The whole thing is a Jew scam. Paul Warburg set us up with a Rothschild style bank in 1913. Even before that we had money problems due to no centralized currency and limited government intervention. We need to cast out the money lenders from the temple and create a money system that benefits all.
If you don't believe me or follow what I'm saying, ask yourself how the "1%" (i.e. Jews) got there. Did they till more fields; did they create more products? No. There is no flaw in the system. It works just as it's designed. Money doesn't flow into the top "1%'s" pocket on accident. Don't let them make you believe that.
Excessive interest was never claimed in the Bible. It was "interpreted." God obviously meant a little is okay when he said no interest. I'm sure he would be okay with a little murder and theft too.
Ohh, wow, gay parades. Christianity stronk. Why doesn't he take on usury now? Something tells me he likes the easy targets. Faggots do each other up the ass; usurers do the nation up the ass.
>CRHSITIANS R HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!
Wow, what a shocker.
Next you'll be telling me that primitive Christians described in the Book of Acts in the Bible lived communism on communes.
Holy shit, this is like babby's first x-tian research post. Enjoy being a fedora next week.
That's why He made it a sin. So you didn't have some Jew with 99% of your country's money. Look what they do with it. They destroy everything else in your religion. They create pornography, they push promiscuity, usury, greed, homosexuality, and many other degenerating ideologies. They use the interest from our hard work, while they don't work at all, and destroy us with it. That is why He banned it.
The Bible isn't wrong. Usury should be outlawed. All loans should be done via the government. The program should charge a fee to break even with people defaulting, but it should not be for profit.
They also shouldn't allow people to take a loan on just anything. Most people are in debt from doing just that. People are encouraged to do so and aren't forward thinking enough to stop themselves.
this russian meme is absolutely great.
I am not russian but I am from an americanized country and I totally can understand. it nails the situation.
It also shed some light to some things I was reflecting on.
thank you Kolyvanon
That capital is just the work of the nation. Money's value is derived from the goods and services it can purchase—the goods and services a working man makes. Someone who sits on a chair in some ivory tower somewhere should not be in control of the nation. Why does a man who has no concern about the nation or its inhabitants get all of the wealth? Why should he take our excess labor and loan it out to some other guy. That's all your loan is: the sweat and misery of some other poor schmuck before you, which will be paid of with your seat and misery, and given to the next man.
Because most 4chan Christians are reactionaries who view Christianity as the ideological foundation for conservative counter-revolution against nonwhites, gays, women, etc. gaining more power in Western society.
Opposition to women's rights, gay rights, welfare, and fighting Islam are emphasized, and before someone accuses me of being a Muslim, Islam is even worse in every way.
Loving your neighbor, feeding the hungry, and caring for the poor are beside the point.
Than Jews? What are you smoking and what kind of question is that? You really think letting private banks control our money is better than the government?
It's not even a question. A government operating banking as a service would be infinitely better. Healthcare should be run the same way. There shouldn't be any lobbyists anywhere pushing for special interest groups. Those kinds of meetings should be a jailable offence, even. Honestly, it comes down to honesty. A strong centralized government that is at the people's service is hands down the best form of government, and one run by dishonest people is hands down the most oppressive.
>b-b-but you need interest for a viable economic system to work
During the 2007 financial collapse and resulting recession, the Islamic banking sector (which does not use interest) was literally untouched by the global financial meltdown.
Meanwhile, Slavs, Chinks, Japs, Africans, and Poo-in-Loos and their collective financial industries got BTFO thanks to Wall Street's shenanigans.
>is on 4chan
>can't handle banter
>During the 2007 financial collapse and resulting recession, the Islamic banking sector (which does not use interest) was literally untouched by the global financial meltdown.
Source for this?
Who ignores it? I sure as fuck don't.
Reminder to all my fellow Catholics that Aquinas says lending money at interest is a MORTAL SIN. It's in the De Malo. That means the very act of modern banking automatically cuts its actors off from sanctifying grace. That means all bankers, unless they end their practice, are going to Hell.
Smash the banking system. It's sinful and demonic. The bankers can repent or they can die.
> Why do Christians ignor the part about usury in the Bible?
True Christians didn’t, but then the greedy Protestants decided they wanted to become Jews while still claiming to be Christians.
The Reformation had little to do with religion (at least among the upper classes driving and controlling the movement) and was in fact all about being able to charge interest and make a profit by doing nothing to earn it.
>Loving your neighbor, feeding the hungry, and caring for the poor are beside the point.
all reasons why the Roman empire fell, Christian cuck values turning men into ladyboys, Constantine's own devious plan turned against him in the end inb4 fedora police
>Yet many modern Christians are like... But muh 401K!
A 401K or similar investment isn't usury, are you're taking the risk of losing it all.
Usury is making a profit without any risk; i.e. the borrower must pay you back with interest no matter what situation they found themselves in.
"Tornado wrecked your farm and you lost everything? Too bad goy... I mean, dude. You still have to pay ME back everything I lent you, plus my profit!"