Has anyone since Marx come up with a new argument for why socialism

>yfw real capitalism has never been tried

>>663201
First of all there exists some pseudo-antithesis between Marxism & Capitalism.

The economic factor exercises a hypnosis and a tyranny over modern man.

In free-market economies, as well as in Marxist societies, the myth of production and its corollaries (e.g., standardization, monopolies, cartels, technocracy) are subject to the "hegemony" of the economy, becoming the primary factor on which the material conditions of existence are based. Both systems regard as "backward" or as "underdeveloped" those civilizations that do not amount to "civilizations based on labor and production"—namely, those civilizations that, luckily for themselves, have not yet been caught up in the feverish industrial exploitation of every natural resource, the social and productive enslavement of all human possibilities, and the exaltation of technical and industrial standards; in other words, those civilizations that still enjoy a certain space and a relative freedom. Thus, the true antithesis is not between capitalism and Marxism, but between a system in which the economy rules supreme (no matter in what form) and a system in which the economy is subordinated to extra-economic factors, within a wider and more complete order, such as to bestow a deep meaning upon human life and foster the development of its highest possibilities. This is the premise for a true restorative reaction, beyond "Left" and "Right," beyond capitalism's abuses and Marxist subversion.

Marxism does not differ very much from the "Western" views of prosperity: both Weltanschauungen [worldviews] essentially coincide, as do their practical applications. In both Marxism and free-market economies we find the same materialistic, antipolitical, and social view detaching the social order and people from any higher order and higher goal, positing what is "useful" as the only purpose by turning the "useful" into a criterion of progress, the values proper to every traditional structure are inverted.

Capitalism is not necessarily preferable to socialism. Marx, whom can be quoted to devise any sort of 'Marx' of your own, once said that capitalism develops the productive capacities needed for socialism (and later communism) to take off.

To answer your question, I've noticed that one of the popular lines of enquiry is "why hasn't socialism replaced capitalism yet?" Antonio Gramsci wrote about hegemonies and consent (I somehow got a First in an essay marked by a Marxist even though I critiqued Gramsci - the academic referenced Gramsci a lot in his work), and David Harvey wrote about the 'Spatial-Temporal Fix' in that 'capitalism' prolongs itself by moving into new spaces (such as the developing world) or invests into long-term projects in order to restore declining profit margins.

>>663201
Mature Marx doesn't argue preference, and young Marx's only argument is "species-being" ie: normative humanism.

From 1830 onwards raw naked class interest has been a strong motivator of preference for socialism amongst proles

>>663214
Good post, do you know of any sources/authors that expand on these points?

I have also concluded that Marxism and Capitalism have much in common regarding what they see as desirable and ideal in a society. They both advocate economic policies that are unsustainable in the sense that both systems ultimately depend on infinite growth in a finite world. The only thing that is in question is who will control the levers of power of this industrial civilization, not whether or not the civilization should be industrialized. The exploitation of workers is debated between advocates of the two systems, the exploitation of the planet's material resources is never in doubt.

>>663204
>>>/biz/

>>663214
>capitalism is the only system that seeks to exploit resources
Where did the Aral sea go? An entire sea, gone, even if we still had 19th century style capitalism there would have at least been a token effort by the chatting liberal middle classes to prevent it.

Haven't you ever seen the intricate terraces to provide every scrap of land for rice production in Japan and China or the fact Europe is not a huge forest as it used to be? What about all the giant mammals that suddenly went extinct when humans arrived?

Every society seeks to exploit resources. When Kings and lords or tribes are finished fighting each other to a stalemate they turn their attentions to expanding the economy, they just lack the means to harm the environment as much as we can nowadays.

>hurr that is just your western eurocentric view
This has to be one of the cheapest excuses to avoid being rational. My view is also a Chinese view, an African view, I am sure anyone who looks at the facts and has experience dealing with the real world will reach the same conclusion. If you believe otherwise you are implying nonwestern cultures are inferior and you and your postmodern ilk are racist and "eurocentric", not me.

>>663201
Marx came up with an argument for socialism? All I remember was some edgelord utopian ranting.

>>663300
>All I remember was some edgelord utopian ranting.
That's strange, because Marx was never a utopian. Which "text" did you read? Go on, it was from Cato institute wasn't it?

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>>663214

>>663374
That scantron ain't gonna pick up on the ink.

First of all, there's no such thing as socialism or capitalism.

My interior semiotics proffessor made a beautiful summary

"Capitalism is hate but Socialism is love. And love always triumphs over hate"

>>663201
Socialism is pretty much dead. All economists now agree that market based economies are the best, the remaining disagreement is between the Keynesians and the more free market economists.

>>666580
lel

>>663214
Evola go home, you're drunk.

people have been writing about and fighting for socialism since Marx, sometimes for new reasons and in new ways. so yeah, no shit.

>>666589
>All economists now agree that market based economies are the best
>economists
oh my god REALLY?

>>663201
There is no moral, ethical validation for a system that necessitates and institutionalizes vast inequality and resultant poverty. It should be the logical pursuit of any rational, ethically-minded person to pursue alternatives to such a system.

Even if you disagree with the fundamental principles of communism/socialism, capitalism remains an immoral and irresponsible economic mode. There is no validation.

>>666612
>people who observe and document phenomenon support a system based upon the observation of phenomenon instead of a system based entirely on what personal opinion
It's shocking, right?

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>>666612
>oh my god REALLY?

Are you being sarcastic or what? Are you gonna spew some bullshit about how you have trans-economic values?

>>666630
>capitalism remains an immoral and irresponsible economic mode
No it isn't.

>>666630
>a system that necessitates and institutionalizes vast inequality and resultant poverty

But I don't even agree with this.

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>>663201

>>666640
>being this ideological
take the bourgeois dick out of your ears

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>>666639
>he thinks economists are scientists

>>666630
Why is inequality bad?

>>666665
Austrian school pls

>>663201
It's easy, I give you tickets to US and North Korea, CHOSE ONE

>>666666

>>666589
No, social market economy is pretty "in" right now in the developed world.

>>663204
>what is 18th and 19th century usa

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>>666688

>North Korea

>communism under lunatic dictator = socialism

>>663285
He says that both systems exploit resources you illiterate twat.

>>663300
Actually he came with both arguments for and against socialism you've just never read him.

>>666688
North Korea has caste system.

Reminds me of feudalism more than socialism imo.

>>663214
>Thus, the true antithesis is not between capitalism and Marxism, but between a system in which the economy rules supreme (no matter in what form) and a system in which the economy is subordinated to extra-economic factors, within a wider and more complete order, such as to bestow a deep meaning upon human life and foster the development of its highest possibilities.

Economy reigns supreme regardless. People have to produce and consume in order to survive and however this is organized will determine how society is organized. The goal of socialism (whether you like it, or not) was to develop an economy that satisfied people's needs in a way that didn't alienate them; this would create a way of life where people could engage more or less develop the "highest possibilities" of human life.
I don't understand how you can argue that economy doesn't come first. You gotta fucking eat, man.

>>666688
>>667402
>North Korea
>any semblance of communism or socialism

Marx's critique of the capitalist mode of the relations of production from the viewpoint of the idea of surplus value has yet to be debunked.

>>667402
>implying all socialists aren't lunatics

>>667452
His labour theory of value has been proven wrong. Thus, his idea of surplus value has, consequently, been debunked.

>>663201
>Has anyone since Marx come up with a new argument for why socialism would be preferable to capitalism?
Well yea, part of Rawl's conclusion in Justice as Fairness is about how rational people looking out for themselves yet also wanting to create a fair society would construct a socialist society.

>>667585
Citations.

No need to cite the calculation debate or Bohm-Bawerk by the way.

>>667620
Rawls just essentialises yet another human nature and is in his own way as pathetic as Robert Owen, just with another New Lanark to act as a slave cage.

BIGGER CAGES
LONGER CHAINS

>>667635
Take your pick
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_labour_theory_of_value

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>>667585
>MFW Porkies didn't even read Capital.
>MFW Porkies don't get Marx's theory of value has literally nothing to do with Marginal theory.

Porkies changed the meaning of value then forgot that the original meaning of value was something completely different, then tried to debunk Marx when Marx's value and Porky value literally don't even relate to each other in any way.

>>667655
It is pretty obvious you've done no reading in this area at all. Please reread the sticky, commit suicide, then go back to posting on /int/

the first time I was ever introduced to the labor theory of value, it was by a close friend who's very libertarian. This was a few years ago, so it's an obvious paraphrase, but he summarized it thusly: "Yeah, I mean, the labor theory of value basically says that people should be paid for however much work they put into things, so if I take six hours to make a widget and you take four, the price of a widget from you should be six yet mine should only be four, and ideas like 'market value' should be disregarded. It's totally irrelevant if I suck at making widgets, I should get paid more than you anyway." Which, to put it lightly, is a misrepresentation. While explaining the labor theory of value is outside of the scope of this post, what I will say is that to Marx, 'value' is something intrinsic to an object; it's the 'socially necessary abstract labor' inherent to it. Talk about dense language! What a capitalist would call 'value,' a Marxist would call 'price.'

As you can see, even just one little word, 'value,' can be quite dense! Can you imagine a discussion intended to be 'learnable' to outsiders about what's meant? Imagine the expansion: 'value' -> 'socially necessary abstract labor' -> ... Marx is already long enough; Capital would be thousands of pages! Yet to a beginner who flips to Chapter 12, they'll read a sentence that contains 'value' and draw poor conclusions! They wouldn't even realize they're making a mistake, I mean, how could five letters be misinterpreted?

http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2011-12-15-marx-anarchism-and-web-standards

>>663214
Another thing I should mention before an argument erupts is that we need to distinguish Markets and Capitalism.

Capitalism is a system of ownership where the means of production are owned privately. The means of production are used by the workers to produce goods and services. What the owner does with the produced goods is up to them while they pay workers a wage for their work.

Capitalism is efficient only in the sense that it takes the least amount of input and produces the most possible output within societally acceptable means (not slavery).

It comes at the cost of the workers, however, and so socialism was proposed to switch the role of ownership to the workers. It would lessen efficiency just as capitalism is less efficient than slavery, but ensures that goods and services are produced in a democratic, healthy, and productive environment placing the workers over goods and services.

Both of systems of ownership can utilize a market economy.

Socialism is NOT where the government owns everything and provides to everyone. Nationalization of industry is seen as a transition state.

Communism does away with the market aspect and the entirety of society is organized on the local, federal level, to the top. The state is done away with, but keep in mind, there's a difference between government and the state.

Venezuala is NOT a socialist country, the only socialist societies to have ever existed were the Paris Commune, Catalonia, the Free Territories of Ukraine, and a few more.

Socialism and Communism emphasize collective input and democracy.

Just thought I say this before anyone starts and argument and says something very misniforming like the DPRK being an example of communism.

>>667663
Your friend sounds quite misinformed. Hope you explained it to him.

Marx is a mix of rich man guilt, millenarialism, catholicism, pseudohistory and pseudoeconomics. Don't read it yo.
Only leftists keep Marx as a noticeable author. He should be among all the bizarre scientific shit the 19th century brought, just like phrenology

>>667745
>yo

you are a retard, leave

>>667745
>the man who organized one of the best and extensive critiques of capitalism is an idiot.

You probably think the manifesto is all he wrote.

>>667754
No, he wasn't an idiot. He was wrong, just like many intellectuals and scientists at the same time.
>You probably think the manifesto is all he wrote
I read tons of marxist shit like 2 years ago and I used to consider myself a marxist back then desu.

> those civilizations that, luckily for themselves, have not yet been caught up in the feverish industrial exploitation of every natural resource

lol and which should that be.

dude, marx' materialistic view, is the only one that stands the test of scientific proof.

>>667765
you obviously didn't understand shit then, or now for that matter.

>>667765
>Used to be a marxist 2 years ago
> Doesn't understand that if Marx is pseudohistory, pseudoeconomics, and rich man guilt then Ibn Khalud was probably some fucking punk who had no idea what he was talking about and didn't conceptualize the concept of social conflict.

>>667780
Don't bother, Marxism is incomprehensible outside of proletarian struggle.

>>667780
Maybe you don't understand shit now, buddy.
>>667806
Think there should be no doubt on how humanity has nowadays more knowledge on every field of science than what it had at the 19th century.

>>667818
So it is a matter of subjective perspective, aight?

>>667639
> Rawls just essentialises yet another human nature
You can't essentialises something if it's considered human nature since it's already essential by the very definition you stupid fuck.

>>667822
In terms of developing the universal subject, sure. In terms of your first year crap, go play leap frog with a bus.

>>667834
>You can't essentialises
You can't essentialise
Wrong tense

>human nature...[is] already essential
And now this shit.

>>667818
>proletarian struggle
More like Twitter and mid high class scholars desu

>>667844
>In terms of developing the universal subject, sure. In terms of your first year crap, go play leap frog with a bus
Looks like you inverted roles there mane

>>667858
No, in the union.

>>667863
Get a job.
Join the union.
Shoot your boss.

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>>667878
>shoot your boss
Ok

>>667900
It is a good start.

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Was there a single prediction made by Marx that became true? Capitalism seems to be going pretty strong.

>>668693
Seven year crisis cycle, amplified by Kondratieff.

Relative and absolute emiseration.

Wage being fungible below subsistence.

I'm not even bothering. Go fuck yourself you ignorant cunt and read Kolakowski.

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>>667660
>>>/leftypol/

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>>668781
I'm sorry, but I can't see any of those things happening. People worldwide are richer than ever and the countries that have adopted economic liberalism are safer, more developed and stable, richer and happier than the rest.
Also, go fuck youself too and go read Kazimierz "The Prole Champ" Kelles-Krauz in its original language, then get back to me.

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>>667660
>Censoring Der Ewige Jude

>>667775
I won't trust a man who does't know how to use a comma.