>>653628 Is there any other culture that had cities comparable to tenochtitlan while also only having a similar level of technology?
Pretty sure population with tenochititlan was in the top 5 largest cities on the world when the Spanish came, around the size of Constantinople, and even aside from the population the city itself being made of stone, built on a lake, and the amount of infrastructure and agricultural stuff going on as you said at least off the top of my head is unparalleled considering stone age level cultures.
>>653695 >Cortés estimated it was twice the size of the city of Seville with about 60,000 people trading daily There's a confusion due to translation, Cortés says that the marketplace of Tlatelolco was twice the size of the marketplace of Seville, which was the biggest one of Europe.
Mesoamerica was lucky enough to receive the three greatest tropical crops, Corn, Sweet Potato and cassava. They were able to expand and become complex in a way other tropical regions never could without rice.
Sweet Potato once in hit PNG completely altered everything.
>>653628 They were bronze age. They just didn't use it on a large scale for weapons because they didn't need it. They wanted wounded sacrifices, not impaled corpses, and they never had to worry about slowly hacking through a warhorse with an obsidian tipped macuahuitl.
>>654626 After all the conquest and killing, the biggest shame imo is the loss of most of their languages, what an amazing thing it would be to see in detail how language developed on a continent isolated from the old world.
>>654681 Natives apparently replaced some of Cortez parts with bronze parts.
They knew of bronze. They just didn't use it often. Perhaps partly because of lack of copper or more likely tin and perhaps partly because they didn't have a high demand for it. You don't need bronze weapons if your enemies don't have bronze armor. Obsidian does the job fine.
>>654691 just because they knew bronze doesn't mean they had the skill or enough material to produce bronze weapons And having bronze armor while your opponent fights with stone cubs would be a huge advantage
>>654647 They had the ability to use metal but they used it for ornamentation only.
If that makes them bronze age then copper inuit were bronze age, khoisan in Namibia were iron age. >>654681 Metal seemed sacred. >>654862 Shut up. There is no evidence. >>654843 Farmers from the Middle East made you people relevant.
>>653596 The Aztecs were savages, and I say that with the most respect and fear I can imagine. They were smart, built impressive temples, had advanced agriculture, and had begun to understand metals. But holy fuck, they killed a lot of people, in very nasty ways. Skinning alive, cutting out beating hearts, cannibalism, child sacrifice, killing people for WINNING sports, keeping client state just to attack them for war captives for more sacrifices, holy shit they were terrifying.
They didn't use it at large scale because worked copper and bronze was much more expensive then gold to the Aztec and to reach the point of metal weapons you need to be able to produce it at some scale.
Cortez did nothing wrong and just wanted to make the world a better place, he wasn't racist at all, he allied with the tlaxcalans who had been oppressed by the imperialist aztecs (believe it or not brown people can be colonialist imperialist pig dogs too) and married a native qt, he knew that this civilization wasn't going to last when the other europeans got their hands on it, so he took an enormous risk with his own life, burning the boats and marching into the heart of the enemy capital rather than ravaging through the entire country. This isn't the act of an opportunist criminal who just wants to get some gold and go back to spain to live in opulent splendor, this is someone who wanted to change the world.
A few 100 conquistadores is better than 10000 europeans sweeping from one side of the country to another massacring everyone. Thankfully courageous cortez got their first and Tlaxcala still exists to this day.
>>657821 See but contemporary isn't the same stage of development.
Aztecs and Mesoamerrica in general was way more comparable to classical europe or the middle ages at the time the Spanish came, and there was absolutely just as much slaughter going on then: there was pretty much nonstop war going on in europe, there was hardly a day in hundreds of years where at least some nations were at war with each other, and then you have the crusaders which like ritual sacrifice was all done in the name of religion.
even comparing "contemporary" euope. go look up all the shit that went on then or during the 30 year wars, it's just as bad, and the conquest of the america's itself was even worse.
The flower wars in mesoamerica by comparison to all the warrring going on in the middle ages while certainly barbaric and horrific was much more of a "controlled burn". Instead of having outright conflict and pillaging you are just sending out some soliders every few years as tribute instead, and human sacrifice was highly ritualized with the sacrifices being honored so up untill the point where they were actually, you know, killed, they were pretty much treated like royalty and it was mostly something done willingly on the rarer occasions it was the aztecs themselves
Also the vast majority of sacrifice going on was just blood letting and such.
There was literally more executions going on in london per captia then the amount of people the aztecs were killing.
>>657845 I wouldn't say so. A huge % of the native population was killed off, not just of the aztecs, but of other cultures as well, and the cities were all dismantled and torn down. As has been mentioned earrrlier in the thread tenochtitlan was a mega-city rivaling even the largest ones in euope at the time, after the conquest it was all plantations.
>>655564 Aside from a couple of ceremonies, they only took the hearts of warriors captured in battle. For example, the only person they skinned was a chosen young woman in the equinox of spring, - after - her heart was taken off. Kill enemies in battle didn't provide the prestige of their capture for sacrifice. Again, only warriors were involved and the Aztecs were not the only ones with these war customs. Besides, some of the sacrificed children were sons of noble warriors while the commoner ones were ill with an untreatable disease.
>>657886 In the end the tlaxcalans got fucked over as much as the aztecs did if not more. Also, cortez was willing to ally with the Aztecs, even after Montezuma sent a bunch of assassins after the Spanish to stop them from reaching the captial to begin with. Cortez hung out and lived in montezuma's palace for a while, only reason conflict broke out was because cortez wanted to put an tribute to god alongside the aztec's idols for huitzilopochtli, which raised tensions a fuck ton, and shortly after that cortez found a treasure rroom and decided to take action.
Cotez certainly wasn't as bad as a lot of popular culture makes him out to be, but he was motivated by greed when he started to crack heads and actually disobied the Spanish crown in the process.
>>657930 You didn't read my whole comment I see. Also, the aztecs didn't preform human sacrifices even close to every day. There were a few ceremonies going on annually, and most of them didn;t involve mass slaughter or death at all, again, a lot of it was just bloodletting.
Just how like a lot of popular culture makes cortez out to be a genocidal greedy maniac who came to the Americas just to fuck people over, it also makes the aztecs out to have been a lot worse then they actually were.
Also, for the flower wars, you have to keep in mind that the other nations were there trying to get captives for their own sacrifices too. I don't know about you, but controlled amount of sacrificing people to ensure that the gods stayed alive wiith the sacrifices being treated well doesn't sound as bad as in eurrope where you had countless wars just fought over who was interpretating the bible right that involved indiscriminate slaughter.
>>657943 eh, you could argue that, but it also would have been much better had cortez came in, the shit with the idol that was mentioned in >>657988 didn't happen, and cortez left the aztecs intact as is as a vice-royalty.
They would have westenrrized on their own without conflict over a half century or so and tenochtitlan would have been left as is, and mexico would probably be a firrst world nation. Hell, the aztecs had better access to clean water then mexico did up until pretty recently in the big picture.
>>657886 >and married a native qt He didn't, but he raised their son. No one knows for sure what happened to her after the fall of Tenochtitlan.
>burning the boats He dismantled them to use them later in the siege from the lake.
>marching into the heart of the enemy capital rather than ravaging through the entire country He also committed treason to the Governor of Cuba by taking his troops without his consent.
>Thankfully courageous cortez got their first and Tlaxcala still exists to this day. You know that the first thing the Tlaxcalans did after their alliance with the Spanish was kill all the nobles of Cholula for their betrayal with the Aztecs, right?
>Our commander here said, smilingly, to Motecusuma: "I cannot imagine that such a powerful and wise monarch as you are, should not have yourself discovered by this time that these idols are not divinities, but evil spirits, called devils. In order that you may be convinced of this, and that your papas may satisfy themselves of this truth, allow me to erect a cross on the summit of this temple; and, in the chapel, where stand your Huitzilopochtli and Tetzcatlipuca, give us a small space that I may place there the image of the holy Virgin; then you will see what terror will seize these idols by which you have been so long deluded."
>Motecusuma knew what the image of the Virgin Mary was, yet he was very much displeased with Cortes' offer, and replied, in presence of two papas, whose anger was not less conspicuous, "Malinche, could I have conjectured that you would have used such reviling language as you have just done, I would certainly not have shown you my gods.
- Bernal Díaz del Castillo, The True History of the Conquest of New Spain Chapter XCII
>>658181 I know it happened, I made both >>658006 and >>657988, I was saying that had the shit with the idol not happened, tensions might have stayed low enough that cortez would have just made the the aztecs a viceroyality and there wouldn't have been a fucking massacre and the city wouldn't have been razed.
>>658275 It doesn't explain everything. Japan was already much more advanced, and capable of using european firearms to produce their own. The Aztecs would never have been able to do anything like that.
>>658291 Did the Japanese invented such weapons? Or was it europe? Wait, but what about powder? Can you now see the difference? Still, smallpox did most of the damage, you have to be a dense stormfront member to state otherwise.
In first few tens of years, some Spaniards thought about preserving the good parts of their culture while converting them. Something like using Greco-Roman culture in Christian Europe during the Renaissance
>>653787 You are totally mixing up your foodstuffs, bro. Corn is not a tropical crop. Sweet potatoes were more Maya than Aztec. For many native groups stretching from central Mexico to the Great Lakes, a combination of corn, beans and squash was the standard (called The Three Sisters since they can be planted together in the same plot). Amaranth was common for Aztecs though.
Cassava is purely from the Amazon, and the Aztecs wouldn't have known what it was.
>>657824 >what is the guillotine >what is the traditional scaffold place of execution >what are the burning pyres 'Europe' isn't a singular civilization. Religious execution and sacrifice are not much different.
>>657930 You have no clue what the Aztecs did every day, no one does. They did perform human sacrifice, but their religion also believed that offered human hearts literally kept the universe (whose 'navel' was Tenochtitlan) from imploding. The Aztecs also didn't ritually fuck little boys.
>>658181 >Spaniards never lied >Spaniards were never self-interested >the second-rates and has-beens who made the risky voyage across the ocean and had less to lose could never have been positioning for status and titles back in Spain.
>>658602 Stop the Fucking meme, there is not one shred of actual evidence that corn, squash and beans were planted together in the way Anglo North Americans make it sound. Not even Milpa plantings do so in the same way, neither is there any actual proof of fish being used to fertilize corn.
At most squash is planted after corn sprouts usually on the perimeter of a corn field and not inbetween corn stalks and the bulk of legumes did not rely on corn stalks for trellises.
Maya relied overwhelmingly on Cassava.
I was speaking of Mesoamerica in general not Aztecs if you actually read my post
Sweet potato is a calorically dense and fast crop that made its way to Mexico long before European contact north to Veracruz.
Corn is a crop of the Subtropics, that is indisputable. It was slowly adapted to temperate climates over centuries
Appreciate your Guns, Germs and Steel understanding of New World crops and agriculture though, it's cute.
>>658725 Not in Tenochtitlan, because it was a marshy/lake environment, but certainly small farms in villages throughout the non-foresty parts of Mesoamerica. I'm sure you're aware of the irony of 'shreds of evidence' when talking about documented pre-Columbian daily practices.
I've read quite a few other books but curiously not Guns, Germ and Steel.
>>658901 They did both, sure. I'm not arguing one was better or worse. If you count religious executions (which Europe did aplenty -- Spain itself was literally just wrapping up the Reconquista and was in a frenzy of anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish pogroms)... well, who is really more bloody? From my POV, they were both equally pre-modern humans, who believed death was called for to appease the God(s). Of course power dynamics were tied into this, as they always are. But there's no reason to doubt that most contemporary Aztecs and Spaniards literally believed the precepts of their faith.
>>659647 >Spain itself was literally just wrapping up the Reconquista and was in a frenzy of anti-Muslim, anti Jewish pogroms
While admittedly bloody and violent, how much of that bloodshed and persecution was due to the political reconquering of Spain for the people of Spain, and how much was due to religious animosity and distrust?
I would imagine that if another Christian people invaded and settled the Iberian, I would imagine there too would be a bloody a reconquista, but without the executions, pogroms, and persecutions that followed.
>>658266 >>658291 >(number 1) The Aztecs are on their way to conquer all Mesoamerica >The Spanish arrive to the Eastern border of the Aztecs after 3 failed expeditions exploring the coast of the Yucatan Peninsula >Cortes organizes a more serious army at the expense of the Cuba's Governor >Everything matches with the prophecy of Quetzalcoatl >Montezuma invites them to his capital alongside all his Indian enemies that allied with them >They kidnap him in his palace >Montezuma dies, they are expelled from the city >starts an epidemy >the Aztecs can't deploy their army >the Spansih arrive with more allies some months later >The Spanish-Indian army is now on its way to conquer Mesoamerica (see reason number 1)
A brief example: >Mixtec nation knows that Tenochtitlan fell. >Declares an alliance with the Spansih >No war between them >They go from 300 000 to 100 000 in the next 20 years due to disease >Still no war >They go from 100 000 to 30 000 in the next 50 years >Remain in that number until the XIX century
>Portuguese shipwreck in Japan in 1543 >they show them how to produce matchlocks >No European sends an army because they are literally in the other side of the world >Japan gets completely unified in 1600 >The Spanish try to evangelize and trade >The Shogunate thinks that it's suspicious >The Spanish are expelled and Christianism banned >Isolationism for 200 years
>>662113 >the rest are invaders You mean, like the Romans who gave them vulgar Latin that turned into Spanish? And who let Celtic and Germanic (Visigothic) invaders in their late stages of decay? Or the Greco-Jews who brought them Christianity in the first place?
The fact is that the Moorish states had been there for centuries. That is long enough, whether you like it or not, for they and their inhabitants to be considered native. Of course a fair number of Berber/Arab settlers came, but many locals stayed and some converted to Islam out of convenience. The Jews present were mostly foreign (Babylonian) origin, but surely some Spaniards married into families over the centuries.
>tfw a stupid haplonigger shows up and thinks that explains everything We're on /his/, not /pol/.
>>661765 >After the Cruel Night he could just have left. Well, go back to Spain wasn't an option since he betrayed the Governor of Cuba by stealing his troops and he was also in debt to the Tlaxcalans.
>>658076 Bernal Díaz its a great representative of the Spanish perspective and and a fascinating introduction to the story of the Conquest. The Universal History of the Things of New Spain by Bernardino de Sahagún is the most complete study of the pre-Columbian Aztec culture.
>>664540 No it wouldn't, history would have just gone a different, unknowably shitty way. Count your lucky stars hitler led to the cuban missile crisis and we decided to not kill each other over some penis measuring.
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