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Competence
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

Thread replies: 138
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Who was the most "competent" man in history?
The one who had a job to do and executed it so well that everyone, even his enemies, had to respect him?
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Obligatory Otto von Bismarck, Rommel, Napoleon
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Napoleon was able to micromanage a country like France to the most minute detail and he was actually good at it too so I'll go with him.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this guy. I doubt that anybody didn't respect him from his entry in the Senate until his death.

"There is no dear friend, and no grave enemy, that I have not repaid in full."
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erwin rommel,the desert fox, north african theater, world war II,
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>>648428
this post reeks of trench coat and fedora.
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>>648155
Saladin
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Lincoln
Cortez
Stalin
Deng Xiaoping
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>>648430
Totally, he nominated erwin rommel and described a bit about him, definition of trenchcoat and fedora
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>>648428
>>648161
No no no no no no. Rommel was competent but stop fucking overrating him.
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>>648155
Not even the North Koreans try talking shit about this guy anymore.

Let the implications of that sink in.
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>>648430

>what you see here is the typical /his/ type autist poster. Notice the way his brow furroughs at the mention of Erwin Rommel. Years of research have concluded that at this point, his one-track mind cannot let go of the thought "A general so popular? This is to simple. I've read multiple /pol/ posts on Rommel's supply problems". This this man, nothing is possible except for total degredation of Rommel's reputation. You see, this poster views his own opinion as superior to that of Rommel's contemporaries. He is, after all, an educated /his/ poster who's listened to every single Dan Carlin podcast and knows a thing or two about OBSCURE generals, like Belisarius and Khalid ibn Walid
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>>648463
Remember: Contemporaries also rated Mussolini's competence as exceptional.
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>>648161
I'm expert in 19th century German history, but for an American I feel like I have a good understanding of German history from 1871-present.

Even if he's on the fringe of my knowledge of the period, Bismark stands out to me as one of the most skilled statesmen of all time.
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>>648468

True. But in many regards, Mussolini was exceptional. I'm reading a book on him right now, he was no slouch, no drunkard, extremely dedidacted and more politically adept than many other people in history.
The reason we shit on him today is because he got dragged into world war 2. Italy wasn't ready - and he knew it. But what can you do when your best buddy up north is attacking shit left and right without even telling you about it.

Mussolini was in many regards exceptional and also clear sighted. Toward the end, when Hitler reinstated him in the northern italian puppet state, he knew he was finished and even said so.
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Napoleon, easily.
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Yi Sun-sin.
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>>648155
Napoleon III
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William Marshal, aka The Marshal
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>>648501
>Mussolini was exceptional.
He was incompetent, attempted to make Italy a great power, and failed.
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>>648501
>no drunkard
who cares? he got btfo by a drunkard a cripple and a Georgian bank robber
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>>648693
>"Napoleon III"
>posting a pic of Louis XVIII
You're as competent as Napoleon III
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>>648428
>rommel more competent than based guderian or von manstein
that's just loony
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>>648693
Wasn't he the guy who lost to Mexico?
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Phillip the fucking II of Macedon
The greatest man who never gets talked about
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>>648155
Napoleon
Napoleon III
Louis XIV
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Zhukov

everyone almost always yapping about germans general but this man beat them at their own game
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>>648910
>Russian
>Competent
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>>648332
>>648825
Anticfags get out
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Closest to a Godly status reformator and a public figure for me is clearly Octavian August. Having the balls to not only tell people how to live their lives but himself being an example of royality! Being a General a Princeps and a Tribun as well. For me the history has already seen the peak of humanity.
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>>648155
Pic not related. Zhuge is not my advisor. He is Shu traitor and probably Wu spy too.
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>>648702
>>648719

He was highly competent and made Italy an efficient state. His only mistake was allying with the real idiot - Hitler - which dragged him into wars that were unwinneable (and he knew it).
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>>648825

Philip II was a highly competent schemer and knew exactly what cards to play. He wasn't briliant, however. For instance, he hated siege warfare and refused to get bogged down in sieges. Whatever knowledge Alexander had of sieges, none of it came from Philip.
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>>648155
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>>648155
Frederick the Great?
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Cincinnatus.
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>>649068

>'competent'
>forgets to put on his clothes in the morning
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>>648460
They appreciate his total contempt of freedom.
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>>648985
>replied with a non-argument
Pic related, meatbag.

Didn't stop them becoming one of the few countries in the world to send a person into space and containing the Nazi war machine mostly on their own.
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>>648985
he was
probably the best during ww2

meme on ninefag kid, this is his
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>>648448
>north africa theater, world war 2

we know

you could've stopped at desert fox and it wouldn't have made you look like such a geek.
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>>649109
That only seems impressive when you ignore the cost. They spent a fantastic amount of lives and money to do those things.
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>>649154
this is some america didnt lose vietnam tier bullshit right there
>we didnt lose!
>we killed more of them!

>they sacrificed lots to win a war!
>it was costy sending gagarin to space!
>doesnt count!

anglo butthurt best butthurt
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>>649200
yea if you are 16 and playing counterstrike
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>don't mind me, just inventing science
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>>649181
When you pour vast sums of resources into an objective, you can achieve it. That doesn't make you competent. Give me a billion dollars and I open a world class restaurant.
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>>649181
Why do people always refer to white Americans as "Anglo" when they're mostly of German decent?

Do people get that butthurt that Britain probably kicked their ass at some point?
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>this thread...
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>>649236
>britbongs open their big mouth talking shit
>get head done it
>waa waaa you so butthurt
they speak english and as stupid as chavs
like this muppet here
>>649226
>implying zhukov had nothing to do with what they had at his disposal
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>>649248
>they speak english and as stupid as chavs

Can you speak English because I didn't understand a fucking word you just said.
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>>649027
>He was highly competent and made Italy an efficient state.
Yet it could not produce efficient machinery to win wars.
Mussolini was a fascist philosopher,not a statesman
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>>649292
>Yet it could not produce efficient machinery to win wars.
Italy was very open towards Germany that it would not be ready for war until 1942. The Pact of Steel called for action not before 1942 - by which time both Italy and Germany were ready. However, Germany breached this agreement by going to war with Poland in 1939 and starting the war early - without even consulting Italy.

Italy did not want war when the war came. Mussolini was a very capable statesman and streamlined much of Italian society, as well as founding a working relationship with the catholic church. Mussolini also stamped out the mafia in Sicily. You're not painting an accurate picture of Mussolini or Italy in ww2 with your brief slights.
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>>648501
>The reason we shit on him today is because he got dragged into world war 2. Italy wasn't ready - and he knew it. But what can you do when your best buddy up north is attacking shit left and right without even telling you about it.

So why the fuck did he march into Albania/Greece/France / British Egypt?

Your post can't be real.
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>>649304
>However, Germany breached this agreement by going to war with Poland in 1939 and starting the war early - without even consulting Italy.

Italy wasn't fucking involved in the war until ITALY DECLARED war on the allies in 1940.

Holy shit, are you being serious right now?
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>>649304

actualy he does, it was a mess
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>>649305
>>649310

Mussolini wrongly judged the French army to be weaker than it was. Who can blame him, considering the rapid fall against Germany? It was a desperate and stupid landgrab but the rewards seemed to greatly outweigh the risks.

The same applied to Greece. Remember, Italy and Greece (with Albania) was a boiling pot waiting to happen. Not 15 years earlier, Italy had occupied Corfu to force Greece to give into demands. Italy clearly considered herself the superior of Greece militarily.

>declared war on allies
Yes, as required by the pact of steel.
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>>649256
>pretending not to understand what it means

yep its an amerilard
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>>649351
>It was a desperate and stupid
which is why nobody ever calls him "competent"
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>>649351
>It was a desperate and stupid landgrab
So thanks for proving my point.


>The same applied to Greece.
That had nothing to do with the Pact, that was, once again, Il Duce being a retard.
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>>649360
>which is why nobody ever calls him "competent"
So you'd disregard all of his other accomplishments? That's called cherrypicking. You do know that Mussolini was in power for over 15 years before the outbreak of the war, right?
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King Baldwin

Wasn't even a man when he BTFO kebab.

Managed to be a competent ruler even when his face was rotting off, the poor guy.
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>>649373
>That had nothing to do with the Pact, that was, once again, Il Duce being a retard.
Hostilities between Greece and Italy were unavoidable considering Greece got many of the land possessions that Italy had coveted when entering ww1. This is what the Corfu occupation was all about as well. You can call italy's military stupid and inept - it was - but Mussolini wasn't. Hitler, on the other hand, was.
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>>649378
List his accomplishments then, did he have any?
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>>649392
Different anon here, but >>649304
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>>649392

He increased productivity.
He unified the italian state with the catholic church (Despite being an atheist)
He stamped out the mafia
He took a nation crippled by strikes and effectively destroyed them
He instigated socialist programs that brought culture and a higher standard of living to the poor and middle class
He maneauvered himself to power
He siezed power of italy despite his party having not even support of 20% of the populace (The March on Rome)
He stamped out socialism and communism
He conquered Ethiopia

He was as cunning as Hitler when it came to assessing the political situation of Europe but he wasn't as deluded as the Führer.
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>>649387
>but Mussolini wasn't.

He was so inept his country surrendered in 1943, switched sides and he willfully joined in a German-controlled puppet state after the Germans saved his fat ass from captivity.

Musso was a moron, but by all means, keep praising him if you want to.
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>>649414
>He conquered Ethiopia
But wasn't it the "stupid and inept" Italian military that did that?
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>>649418

Both you and I know you're cherrypicking here.
World war 2 was out of his hands and Mussolini realized way earlier than Hitler that the cause was lost.

Hitler placed Mussolini in charge of the puppet state - had it been up to Mussolini he most likely would not have accepted it. But propaganda reasons demanded it.
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>>649423
The military conquest itself is irrelevant, the extension of italian influence is not.
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>>649414
>He siezed power of italy
King Victor Emmanuel invited Mussolini to form a government.

> brought culture and a higher standard of living to the poor
He caused grain prices to increase by stopping imports,that would reduce the living standards of the poor.
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>>649430
>Italian military loses
Military's fault

>Italian military wins
Yay Il Duce!

Is that about the jist of it?
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>>649007
?
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>>649414

autarchy was a failure

italian industry connot into tanks

almost lost to albania

lost to greece, germans had to fight them instead
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>>649434
>King Victor Emmanuel invited Mussolini to form a government.
Yes, but it's not as if he got there by accident.

>He caused grain prices to increase by stopping imports,that would reduce the living standards of the poor.
At the same time he initiated several welfare programs for children.

>>649439
That's not what I said at all.

>>649452
Yeah, I'm not saying he's great. But he wasn't incompetent like many portray him as. I would in no way list him amongst Napoleon. But I would rank him on par with Hitler and some other contemporaries of his that usually get more credit. In fact, I'd probably put him above Hitler, seeing as Hitler was the one that destroyed both germany and italy.
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>>648155
Talleyrand... the only man of power to survive the kings, the revolution, the directorate and napoleon
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>>649036
What always freaks me out about this picture is that as far as I can tell, that's an official portrait, which means vlad looked at that and said "yeah that makes me look the most attractive I could possibly be". Imagine how fucking terrifying he would have been irl
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>>649083
I chuckled
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jesus.
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>>650015

I think he looks pretty handsome desu senpai
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>>650015
Just reduce the bugeyes and he could have been a dapper gent.
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>>649418
>Why are these guys so happy
>Oh, right, they 'rescued' me
>Now I get to be Hitler's puppet while the Americans are conquering Italy from the south
>Meanwhile, half the country hates my guts and is already tying nooses for me
>I'm a dead man walking and my legacy has gone up in smoke
>And I'm supposed to smile?
>Nah, fuck that.

Also, moot spotted on the right.
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>>649031
He hated sieges but he still successfully conducted many of them in his life time. He was brilliant because not only was he great at diplomacy and scheming, but also warfare and running his state, Alexander for example only ever proved himself in warfare.
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>>648155
Definitely NOT the guy in your pic. Probably the single most overrated man in chinese history.
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>>649239

fuark

d

talk about right man for the time, the Balkans fell broke like tower of playing cards when this guy shuffled off.
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Aetius would be a good one. Belisarius, I would also say Qin Shi Huangdi.
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>>649414

he was a putppet of the elites who saw the writing on the wall and did everything, EVERYTHING do smooth the road for their creature to do what they couldn't if they hoped to endure as "elites".

plebs always always underestimate the Aristo's, the only way, THE ONLY WAY to put them in their place is to put them in the ground.
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>>649027
>His only mistake was allying with the real idiot
Wrong. He was forced into that because of the sudden diplomatic reversal following the war in Ethiopia, with France and later Britain refusing to consider negotations and straight up condemning Italy for doing the exact same thing they were doing.
Mussolini's real mistake was entering the war, when he wasn't being forced to, believing that Hitler would stop after the collapse of France and negotiate peace with Britain.
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>>648155
>Kong fucking ming
>not a hypocritical asshole with the most inflated reputation in military history
Top fucking kek. Pic related, the period's real genius.
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>>650508
I disagree about Alex, he proved himself far more competent at diplomacy than Philip ever did. Also, what sieges did Philip perform? I cant recall any but maybe Im wrong.
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>>650547

Pact of Steel forced him into war. But yes, allyong with germany was a mistake.
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>>650583
>Pact of Steel forced him into war.
Diplomacy never forced anyone to do anything. Mussolini could well have ignored the pact, he chose not to. And he reaped the results.
Allying with Germany by itself can't really be considered a mistake tho, because they were after all a very threatening presence whose objectives mostly overlapped with Italy's. Not to mention the fact that Mussolini required a market like Germany to acquire the resources necessary to keep industrializing Italy, after the rest of the european ones got closed to him through sanctions.
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>>650575
First of all, what do you consider "diplomacy"? Because while I call things like this
>It was now that Philip applied the coup de grace. He had persuaded the Athenians and other Greeks that he and his army was heading for Halos, but it seems certain that he also sent other units straight to Thermopylae.[116] All of central and southern Greece was now at Philip's mercy,[117] and the Athenians could not now save Phocis even if they abandoned the peace.[118] Philip could be certain of dictating the terms of the end of the Sacred War, since he could now use force against any state that did not accept his arbitration.
Diplomacy, others would call it scheming
As for sieges, specific names are slim, but I know he besieged many cities (as many as 32) when he attacked Chalkidian League
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>>648155
Cyrus the Great
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>>650654
>but I know he besieged many cities (as many as 32) when he attacked Chalkidian League

Maybe. He was also unsuccesfull in a few of them, something Alexander never was. Also, he built Pella without walls, so he was kinda delusional when it came to siege warfare... He underestimated it very much.

As for Alexander's diplomacy,
Remember that many cities he took by diplomacy. Gordium, Egypt, Susa, Persepolis. He stabilized the empire via diplomacy as well, for instance pacifying hill tribes on terms that were favourable to them - lullying them into submission if you will.
He often exploited existing divides within the empire to gain easier victories. One instance is Halicarnassus where he allied with Ada of Caria and positioned her on the throne of Halicarnassus after capturing the city. His campaigns are full of deals like this, for instance joining with one indian ruler to fight Porus'. I forgot the name of the ally tho, but I can look it up if you want to, the Arrian is around here somewhere.
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>>648293
Examples?
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>>648155
Pele.
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>>648155
> The one who had a job to do and executed it so well that everyone, even his enemies, had to respect him?
Obligatory
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>>649226
> When you pour vast sums of resources into an objective, you can achieve it. That doesn't make you competent. Give me a billion dollars and I open a world class restaurant.
That's retarded.

Nine of out ten - you'll get swindled out of your "billion dollars" by the end of the first week.

Also, Soviet Union never had "vast sums of resources". Before WWI Russia was the poorest and dumbest shithole in Europe. By 1922 it was below Africa-tier.
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>>650556
Based Cao Cao was respected in both administration and war. Kongming was loyal to a hack and a loser.
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>>650808
>Cao Mengde will never be defeated in battle
Pretty sure that was wrong even at that point in history.
Regardless, most based ruler of the period easy. Even considering his losses, in proportion he must have been top 5 most winning general too.
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>>648155
Klemens von Metternich.
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>>648155
In all seriousness, Timothy Dexter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Dexter
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William the Conqueror.

Subjugated an entire country and established one of the most successful Royal dynasties of Europe.
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>>649414
He will always be known as the inferior Hitler, get over it. Hitler was dangerously competent, Mussolini was a joke.
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>>651110
>He will always be known as
Top kek, like that means anything. Just look at op's pic, that guy is considered a military genius in chinese popular culture, but out of six campaigns he was in charge of, he lost five, and the sixth he won because the opposing general was murdered by his own and internal infighting ensued.
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>>650939
Absolutely fantastic.
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>>650939
How is this man real?
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Are we just talking about rulers/political figures here? If not, then Michelangelo
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>>650939
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Dexter

>Members of the New England high society rarely socialized with him. Dexter decided to buy a huge house in Newburyport from Nathaniel Tracy, a local socialite, and tried to emulate them.[1] His relationships with his wife, daughter, and son also suffered. This became evident when he started telling visitors that his wife had died (despite the fact that she was still alive) and that the woman who frequented the building was simply her ghost.

Hahaahahha. This fucking nigga
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>nobody posted Carolus
I'm disgusted
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>>650939
>In one notable episode, Dexter faked his own death to see how people would react. About 3,000 people attended Dexter's mock wake. Dexter did not see his wife cry, and after he revealed the hoax, he caned her for not grieving enough.

ABSOLUTE MADMAN
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Pompey
>curbed piracy in the mediterranean.
He was offered 500 ships and 3 years from the republic.

Complete the task in 3 months with 50 ships.

Respected by many. Including Julius Caeser. Because of this julius had him killed when jostling for power.
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>>648448
>>649145
Yeah man why did you have to expand on the point you were making and include other information that was also correct. Man I'm so glad I'm not a geek who sits on image boards all day like you

JFC the fucking gall of some people.
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>>649015
>For me the history has already seen the peak of humanity.

I find this viewpoint interesting since my undergraduate.

One of my favorite professors was fascinated with this. He told me one time of his intentions to write a book called "the History of the Decline of the West."

In his reading of history, most reformation movements were looking backward. Being convinced that things had deteriorated, they wanted to literally "re-form" a more perfect organization that existed in the past. All this happened while society was progressing towards a modern state.

While I haven't researched extensively as he has, I think it's an interesting viewpoint. It always seems like a certain and influential portion of western society think things are getting worse, even at points when historical evidence suggests that things are getting better. It's really fascinating to me. I'd very much like to see my old prof achieve his dream of publishing this book.
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>>655722
>"julius had him killed when jostling for power."
t. historical illiterate

I also find it ironic that Pompey ended the pirates for a few decades, and then his son basically became the King of Pirates.
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>>650939

>Aged 50, Dexter wrote a book about himself – A Pickle for the Knowing Ones or Plain Truth in a Homespun Dress – in which he also complained about politicians, the clergy and his wife. The book contained 8,847 words and 33,864 letters, but no punctuation and its capitalization seemed random. At first, he handed his book out for free, but it became popular and was reprinted for sale eight times.[2] In the second edition, Dexter added an extra page which consisted of 13 lines of punctuation marks with the instructions that readers could distribute them as they pleased.
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He became too good at his job so they shot him
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>>649210
I've got to agree. This guy was so good he was killed for it.
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>>649220

yeah, fuck war. When do we stop idolizing war heroes. It's all just fucking luck and chaos.
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>>648155
Franklin Roosevelt minus his legs.
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>>650866
he lost battles but always recovered

unlike, for example, the guy in front of him
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>>658496
>he lost battles but always recovered
You could say the same for those Shu military failures until Jiang Wei's idiocy coup de graced them.
It still doesn't change the fact that they were the most worthless military of the period.
Cao Cao is certainly based enough that we don't need to justify his defeats. When you fight as much as he did, you're bound to lose a few times. What matters is how much you win.
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>>648430
And your post reeks of purple hair dye and hipster clothes
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>>648155
Salazar
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>>650780
Although the best leader of the USSR, Stalin was a paranoid megalomaniac
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Justinian
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>>659494
He was competent paranoid megalomaniac.
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>>650866
Wasn't that just banter.
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So... Who is most incompetent?
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>>648482
Well he failed kulturkampf whose goal was to eliminate every man woman and child who happened to worship the "wrong" religion or happened to have the "wrong" nationality.
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>>648161
Rommel is overrated, Bismarck was only a diplomat and didn't do much military thinking, he let his generals do it
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>>649239
Having balls of steel probably helped. Him sending a personal fuck-you letter to Stalin was so badass.
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>>650702

King Omphis nigger
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>>659529
I dare say Columbus. He set out to find a way to India and not only he didn't find it, but he found an entire continent and confused it with India.
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>>650655
/thread
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>>656430
Pompey anf Julius practically spated it out with partisans at Pharsalus. Pompey fled to egypt but as he set foot on shore he was shanked. Yh perhaps Julius didnt order him to be shanked directly. But they werent exactly the best of friends and Julius didnt exactly waste his time expanding his own influence after Pompey's death.
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>>655722
>He was offered 500 ships and 3 years from the republic.
>Complete the task in 3 months with 50 ships.
If I remember correctly, it's not that he was offered all of that, he pretented all of that. Specifically so as to be guaranteed consular authority over a shitload of men and all the coastland of the republic for three years. It was a power grab.
Also, he accomplished nothing but disperse the pirates for a few years, after which they came back as before. You don't "end" piracy, you police the sea against it.
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